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Agree 100 percent with Sisoon. I as well was told many times over many years by my wife about TOV, belittling comments, criticism snd being judgemental.

Through a bit of IC, but mostly through self reflection and mindfulness, I’ve done a complete 180 and am totally a different person now. My wife and daughter notice the changes big time.

Men with domineering personalities like mine, and you Doc, need to practice mindfulness and think in the moment during conversation, especially so if one’s wife is sensitive by nature, as mine and yours are.

The massive changes I made to better myself in communication style with my wife makes me realize that many people, wayward and other, are capable of change.

I agree with you both on TOV and past issues I had with being quick to anger with my wife, and it’s something I’ve actively been working on for a couple of years—I think I’m much better with everyone, not just my wife. It’s mindfulness before responding. I see the same thing with my dad and used him as an example for my change.

In my current situation, my wife is seeing barely any of that old TOV and it’s shocked her—she can’t understand how I’ve been so mindful and thoughtful in our conversations after what she did.

My frustration is she’s bringing up TOV and belittlement she felt years ago—and then during the affair she brought those feelings back to make bigger issues in her head over minor things to help justify the affair. She agrees with all of that.

So it’s frustrating that she still feels shutdown by my old TOV—quite honesty, it makes little sense to me. I have been trying so hard through all of this.

Yesterday she accepted the blame and realized it was on her—so maybe it’s a turning point for her. I hope it is. And that doesn’t mean I won’t work to improve myself further as well.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 6:55 PM, Sunday, May 8th]

One of them was masterbating for me—like all of the suggestions I gave, she said no. (Of note, she has never masterbated in her life, even alone, but she did send a brief video to AP of her masterbating during the affair.)

So I pointed that out as an example of her wall still being up.

She replied: "You want to know why I said no? It’s because [AP] asked me to do that for him and it hits a little too close to home."

I think you should ask her very directly if all of the sex acts that she performed willing and enthusiastically for Officer Sleazebag are exclusively for him, or which of those sex acts you are allowed to experience as well.

I’m looking to paint over all the shit from the affair and she’s looking to keep things separated still.

You ever try to paint over mold? Doesn't work. That's a trick that landlords do in lieu of actually fixing the problem. The mold eventually works its way up through the paint.

The only way to get rid of mold is to find and kill all of it, then rectify the condition that allowed it to grow in the first place.

By the way, getting rid of mold extremely hard to do. Many people sell houses because of mold problems, and others won't buy them.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 12:24 AM, Monday, May 9th]

If you went after her personhood in your criticisms you imposed shame on her. Now she has shame and guilt and is hoping you will shut up. No one likes to be criticized. (I have finally gotten to the place that when my husbands starts it I tell him he is wasting his time. I like myself just the way I am and every little thing he thinks needs improvement is me being human.) Every verbal cut you gave her is still in there even if she can’t remember them. Does this excuse cheating? Of course not. If you want to stay married you need to accept that your wife cheated. She needs to accept that she is the kind of person who cheats and lies. Those are your realities……..and you need to keep practicing mindfulness. It can’t hurt.

I really don’t know how it’s possible, but this community manages some of the most timely posts I’ve ever seen.

Well, that is because you have not been wearing your tinfoil cap....

Seriously though, you have tapped into a resource where there is a vast pool of knowledge and experience, and even though every A is different, it is also the same.

In that moment I was just so incredibly hurt—not only did she still have a wall up about relatively mild sexual requests, but her reasoning was that it was something she did for AP, so she didn’t want to do it for me.

This again is a common behaviour of waywards, and there are threads devoted on this if you search for them. It is a polarising topic, but you will get a sense (from both BS and WS perspectives). Generally, the debasing of the WS for their APs is done to keep the interest of the AP. At the point of the act, the WS may derive some pleasure from it, but the not always, as the main goal of the act is to entice the AP to stay on. Wooing the AP with the act.

In that moment I was just so incredibly hurt—not only did she still have a wall up about relatively mild sexual requests, but her reasoning was that it was something she did for AP, so she didn’t want to do it for me.

Your WW is still in Guilt mode, and not Remorse mode. She is still looking inwards, and not outwards. Not looking at the devastation she caused, but that she caused it.

Have a look at Walloped, and MrsWalloped's threads. It gives you an idea of how a WS mindset changes from internal to external awareness.

I think you should ask her very directly if all of the sex acts that she performed willing and enthusiastically for Officer Sleazebag are exclusively for him, or which of those sex acts you are allowed to experience as well.

I did. She’s threading a needle—it’s not that she’s opposed to doing them with me, it’s that she wants our sexual adventures to be ours and not based in painting over the affair. I think they can be both.

I mentioned early on that I thought I could move past the sexual acts, but this development brought me back to day-1. Now it’s like I’m living with AP’s former whore, who is telling me certain things are only for AP. It’s impossible for me to get over anything looking through that lens.

If you went after her personhood in your criticisms you imposed shame on her. Now she has shame and guilt and is hoping you will shut up. No one likes to be criticized.

I don’t think I’ve ever gone after her personally. Our (minor) conflicts are always differences of opinions on topics (vacations and desserts, as mentioned); or perhaps dating back, TOV issues when I’d speak to her generally.

I’ve never attacked her personally though (called her names, mocked her, etc.).

Your WW is still in Guilt mode, and not Remorse mode. She is still looking inwards, and not outwards. Not looking at the devastation she caused, but that she caused it.

That is spot on.

Mother’s Day Update:

We hosted my mom (and sister) yesterday. My mom requested pasta and my wife requested braciole and meatballs—nothing too unusual for our Italian Sunday gatherings.

I gave my wife a nice gift in the morning, along with a note about how special of a mother she is despite the madness in our lives currently. Then I spent the day in the kitchen making everything from scratch—I liked keeping busy as it keeps my mind off the affair.

My wife was being incredibly sweet all day, constantly coming over to kiss me and tell me how much it means to me that I’m trying to make the day so special for her.

After dinner, I saw the sadness back in her eyes as we sat the couch. She had an early wake up (4:15 a.m.) to catch a flight for a work trip and she found herself back in grief/self-pity mode.

I tried to keep things positive and not dig into anything—we won’t see each other again until Wednesday night, so I was hoping to leave things on positive terms. I also genuinely hadn’t thought much about the affair all day and liked the peace in my mind.

We went up to bed and I saw her attitude worsening. I had her cuddle into me and asked her to tell me what was weighing on her mind so heavily. She initially said she shouldn’t say as talking keeps getting her into trouble.

I corrected her, saying that wasn’t true and that ultimately her bottling things up is what got us into trouble.

She first spoke about how she doesn’t know what to do with all the weight on her. She took all the blame and she feels it on her shoulders, but she feels she hasn’t made any progress in seven weeks handling it. It’s just sitting there on her and she doesn’t know how to manage it and ultimately move passed it.

Essentially, I told her that is what IC is for (she has an appointment tonight virtually). I told her that I would always listen, but I may not be able to give her the needed guidance and that she should focus IC on her grief.

She then shifted to her next issue—how incredible I am. How I gave her the perfect Mother’s Day even though she didn’t deserve it and it must have been killing me to do it for her. I told her I was happy she enjoyed it.

But she kept pushing—saying that she knows I’m in so much pain and that I shouldn’t be this good to her and how much worse it makes her feel about the affair. Essentially, my kindness was hurting her feelings—and to be clear, nothing I did this Mother’s Day is any different than anything I’d have done in previous years (and it was largely for my own mother anyway).

She pushed on this point until it finally upset me—the affair came flooding back to front of mind. In that moment, all I could think about was her two months earlier happily swallowing his cum. I didn’t even want to be lying next to her, but she kept cuddling closer, making her intentions clear of wanting to be romantic. I kept moving away gradually.

I finally got up and went to the bathroom for 15-20 minutes to try to clear my head. I came back and she was asleep, which only angered me more. How could she sleep? It was like she dumped her pain onto me, fucked me up, then blissfully went to bed. In that moment I could have walked away from her forever.

I spent most of the night awake, drifting in and out and calming myself down from the anger. At 3 a.m. my daughter came in with a bad dream and woke my wife up. We cuddled into each other afterward and I felt close to her again—I felt horrible, and frightened, for thinking I was mentally so close to quiting on the marriage. We ended up having sex before she got ready and left. I couldn’t fall back to sleep so I went downstairs right as she was leaving to kiss her again and give her a proper goodbye before her flight. We left on good terms, but i feel stuck in place.

She wrote this note to me from the airport:

It’s 6:07. I am exhausted and I can’t imagine how you feel. These days are hard and I’m making them harder. Not intentionally. I don’t know how to act and it’s not fair to you. You have been so amazing through all of this. I’m at the airport and it is just strange not having you next to me. Not being around the kids. I traveled for work in January and it was obviously a different feeling. I felt I was escaping my secret life and my married one. Now I’m sitting here feeling empty because I’m not around you. Feeling awful because there are days I say the wrong things.

My grief isn’t self pity. I feel genuinely awful for the things I’ve done. But that is something I need to work through with [IC].

I was so happy when you walked down the stairs this morning to say goodbye. It made me feel so good! I just wanted to go back upstairs and stay in your arms. That is the safest place I feel right now. I am incredibly sorry I can’t give you a safe place. I hope one day you can trust me again and that you feel safe.

As RocketRacoon said above, she’s still in guilt mode, not remorse, and I told her that.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:46 PM, Monday, May 9th]

But she kept pushing—saying that she knows I’m in so much pain and that I shouldn’t be this good to her and how much worse it makes her feel about the affair. Essentially, my kindness was hurting her feelings—and to be clear, nothing I did this Mother’s Day is any different than anything I’d have done in previous years (and it was largely for my own mother anyway).

She pushed on this point until it finally upset me—the affair came flooding back to front of mind. In that moment, all I could think about was her two months earlier happily swallowing his cum. I didn’t even want to be lying next to her, but she kept cuddling closer, making her intentions clear of wanting to be romantic. I kept moving away gradually.

So her pattern is to push you away when you are getting closer again then once you disconnect pull you back in. Is she getting ego kibbles from that? That you are so in love with her that you take the abuse and stay. Or is it that she feels she doesn't deserve to be treated that way by you so she sabotages it first before reaching back out. For sure she has a lot of IC work to fix whatever is the cause of that. I'd also bring it up in MC. That you were having such a good day but she couldn't let it be just a happy day.

The only thing I can do is grieve.

Ask her what she is grieving. Ask her to expand on it a bit. The answer will be telling.

I'd bet she is greiving things as they relate to her. Read between the lines. There is a lot there that is important, but is not directly mentioned.

She could be a safe place for you while traveling? Being transparent on her trip is a good barometer of how invedted in you mr M right now.

She is focused on saving what she has in a desperate fashion. She can't see what there is to gain. Mind you, it was there before. She choose not to see it or admit it.

[This message edited by numb&dumb at 3:42 PM, Monday, May 9th]

She is a piece of work. I have no idea where you are finding this patience. She wants to control the reconciliation process. When you push, she pulls. When you pull, she pushes. On purpose. It's mean! The comment about talking getting her in trouble is such a childish way of thinking. Like this is a game.

She is still completely focused on the best outcome for her and what feels best for her. She has so much to work on in IC and I'm sorry for you that if you want to stay in the marriage, you have to be put through these cruel shenanigans over and over. Does she recognize her complete lack of empathy?

[This message edited by clouds777 at 4:06 PM, Monday, May 9th]

So her pattern is to push you away when you are getting closer again then once you disconnect pull you back in. Is she getting ego kibbles from that? That you are so in love with her that you take the abuse and stay. Or is it that she feels she doesn't deserve to be treated that way by you so she sabotages it first before reaching back out. For sure she has a lot of IC work to fix whatever is the cause of that. I'd also bring it up in MC. That you were having such a good day but she couldn't let it be just a happy day.

I honestly don’t know which it is. My best read on her is that she is in genuine disbelief that she had the affair. She recognizes she unfairly made me out to be monstrous—and that’s juxtaposed with my behavior now, which has been understanding and compassionate. She can’t match the man I am now to the affair she just had and I think she hates herself.

But that’s a hard pill to swallow, especially for someone who spent a lifetime reflecting blame and accountability.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 4:30 PM, Monday, May 9th]

She could be a safe place for you while traveling? Being transparent on her trip is a good barometer of how invedted in you mr M right now.

She’s been good—texting me all day so far.

But again, I have zero concerns of her being unfaithful now. Her having a one night stand in another city would be completely insane.

I’m using the time to decompress from all the emotionally charged conversations, so I’d be just as well talking with her less and refocusing my mind.

She is a piece of work. I have no idea where you are finding this patience. She wants to control the reconciliation process. When you push, she pulls. When you pull, she pushes. On purpose. It's mean! The comment about talking getting her in trouble is such a childish way of thinking. Like this is a game.

She is still completely focused on the best outcome for her and what feels best for her. She has so much to work on in IC and I'm sorry for you that if you want to stay in the marriage, you have to be put through these cruel shenanigans over and over. Does she recognize her complete lack of empathy?

My patience comes from my belief that in this moment, I’m exploring the right path. This is the only moment I’ll have to save the marriage—it’s now or never. I feel further from R everyday, but I can’t give up just yet. I’m trying to hang in until I see the change I need from her or all hope is lost. I’m in limbo, and it’s miserable.

And she is childish. On an emotional level especially. And she’s now trapped in her emotional hell: a place where she deserves all the blame and judgement in her world. It’s such a 180 for her and I see her struggling to manage the weight of it all.

As for recognizing her lack of empathy, I don’t think she does. Her self-pity is too massive for her to see passed it clearly. She needs to get that under control before she can really empathize with me. She meets with her IC this evening and then we’ll try to talk afterward if we have time. I was up most of the night, so I might not make it that late.

Waywards have made their own bed so it's hard to be patient or empathetic as they struggle lying in it or trying to get out of it. But at a minimum, if you want to offer R, you have to at least grasp that the subset of WS who try to fix themselves and the marriage need time and some guidance to have a chance for success. It's a daunting task they have and it does not come easy to anyone I've seen. But some power through it and come out better on the other side. Which doesn't mean R is right for you but it may offer some hope if you continue to want to try.

I am glad my exercises are helping.

Something that will help her and you is probably this. It is from DaddyDom a WH and he has some great threads.

https://survivinginfidelity.com/topics/615240/admitting-it-vs-getting-it-vs-owning-it-vs-living-it/

Have you thought more about that 50 reasons you 2 choose each other lists? I think she needs a rope of hope to get her out of the well of self deprecation she is swimming down in. She should write you one so you can read it and understand she does love you. My wife also added one every other day for a couple of weeks which helped me see she did still care about me because I got depressed afterward. If your WW didn't care for you she would have just divorced you because she can see all the work she has in front of her. This helps you both have something to look at when you feel the other person doesn't love you.

I am really glad the day and the empathy building tool helped! I knew it would shake something loose. I am surprised little things like that aren't in a play book for building a connection.

Anyways, she is trying to still control the outcome. It is something all WS have trouble with. They think they had more power/control in the relationship and they need to accept they are now handing that over entirely for a time. It requires extreme trust when they used to not trust their spouse. She didn't trust you, that is why she thought the marriage was over. It really was an excuse and she just bolstered that with every past bad item she could dredge up.

The shame spiral is common as well. There is more reading in the Wayward Support side. They talk about shame versus regret and how to get out of the shame spiral. It might help your WW. I will see if I can find those past posts for you.

She is going through the part I told you about. She is starting to see that she is/was the monster (Why she has a hard time looking herself in the mirror now). She needs to hate who that is to know she needs to change/improve. It is easy though to get stuck on simply hating who you are and then planting your feet saying this is too big. Feeling defeated and await your spouse to end it because you see it as the last terrible thing you can do as the WS, filing for divorce. That is why I was talking about thinking about good days and writing up why you still care about each other. It will give her something to build on over just seeing how to broken it was.

As far as the sex. Just enjoy. If she is unwilling to do something stupid like masturbate for you, then ask her what she didn't do with him that she will do with you? Say you want to feel special sexually like you need some things he didn't get. Otherwise it sounds like he got the steak and you get the fast food burger. They are both beef, but one has a lot more effort and care put into it. The other is more comforting because it is always available and quickly made.

Maybe you 2 make your own porn for just home use for each other. Maybe you both masturbate each other (HJ's). Then it is intimate, but breaking boundaries to make it special and unique. I think that is the part you are trying to discuss with her. That you feel her being defensive and not trying to offer an alternative that is equally explorative and trusting shows she valued him sexually more than she values you. Maybe some basic conversations like that will help her see how she isn't thinking about your feelings during this step in the healing.

[This message edited by DoinBettr at 1:28 PM, Wednesday, May 11th]

So this is pseudo science so if it’s really stupid definitely ignore me. Your comment about her being childish gave me the idea though.

When kids are having tantrums they’re giving into the hormones coming into their brain and ignoring the forming pre-frontal cortex. One way I use to calm down my kids when they shut down their cortex is by triggering it with analytical thought - what color is that table, how many French fries did you have for lunch…anything that involves analytical thought.

If your wife can act like a child maybe it’s because she’s one of the many who never exercised it enough growing up. When she’s having an episode maybe try adult versions of this. ‘On a scale of 1-10 how bad do you feel’ or ‘I have a story for you, but remind me what month we met in again?’. It’s not a perm fix, but may help her get past these emotional episodes and be more constructive in her discussions.

I get that, as her husband, your natural instinct is to support her whenever she is obviously sad. Since she has used your alleged lack of connectedness as a an excuse for an affair, you're going out of your way to demonstrate to her how empathetic, emotionally available, and loving you are.

But by swooping in to rescue her from her own thoughts, you run the risk of getting sucked into a pattern where every conversation about the affair turns into a a discussion about how awful she feels. Whether she feels sorry for herself or for the pain she's caused you is (in this context) irrelevant. You are the injured party here. If the smell and the taste of the shit sandwich on her plate causes her disgust and distress, too bad. She knew what it was and she ordered it anyway. You, on the other hand, were deceived and then forced to swallow it.

So the next time she starts moping around or visibly falls into a shame spiral, I recommend doing nothing. Don't ignore her or antagonize her, but don't prod her into opening up to you, either. Let her wallow in and fully experience her pain. If she wants your comfort and support, then she needs to learn how to ask for it and take the risk that your response may not always be something she wants to hear.

Don't be afraid to call her out whenever she says something manipulative, self-serving, or self-pitying. While you shouldn't be demeaning or unnecessarily combative, you should always be honest and forthright. Don't rely on euphemisms or cushion your words because you're afraid they might land too hard on her fragile ego.

If she feels criticized or rejected, so what? If she loves you and is committed to reconciling with you, then she will eventually learn to deal with disappointment, which will still pale in comparison to the disappointment you're feeling as a betrayed husband. If she's going to grow as a person, she needs to figure out how to cope with her own feelings and failings without relying on you or anyone else to fill the gaping hole in her heart with praise and validation.

I will add, however, that my advice to her would be the complete opposite. Because you are the one who has been betrayed, the onus is on her to be proactive. She needs to initiate conversations about the affair. She needs to tune herself in to how you're feeling each hour of each day. Furthermore, she should never utter the phrase "What's wrong?" She damn well knows what's wrong; therefore, if she sees you looking sad, dejected, or angry, the only question out of your mouth should be: "What can I do to help?" And if you don't have any suggestions, then she should respond by working her ass off to find out for herself.

On that last point, don't tell her about SI... not just because you don't want to risk giving up your safe space, but because it's already one of the most well-known and popular affair recovery sites on the web. If she wants good advice, it will take very little effort on her part to find us.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:31 PM, Tuesday, May 10th]

Good question. One I plan to probe further.

I am asking this gently... Why? Why would you continue to draw from her that which she is reluctant to give?

Right now, your relationship heartbeat has stopped...because she chose to directly subject it to something that led to its ceasing.

Here you are, working your ass off performing CPR, because you are clearly scared to death that the marriage cannot be revived. What is she doing? Occasionally, she says you are doing a good job. Maybe she periodically adjusts the chin to keep the airway open. And you are too busy with chest compressions to see the big picture.

What is the big picture? She is watching you attempt to save the marriage.

And you know what? You are allowing it.

I am also saying this gently, but it is time for you to stop. Stop doing compressions. Tell her it is her turn to carry things. Tell her that you are done trying to figure out her problems for her. Stop being codependent. Tell her there is no marriage problems to address until she addresses her individual problems. She will either jump in with both feet...or she wont.

And frankly, I get why you are reluctant to do so. You know she doesn't pack the gear to take over compressions. You know that you stepping back will likely result in the formal end of your marriage...something which clearly scares you.

Then again, sometimes people surprise us for the better. But you never know how well someone steps up without giving them the opportunity.

Take care, brother.