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Hellfire is spot-on with this...

Then she tops it all off with porn star sex. The sex is clouding your judgement. Stop leading. Stop the sex. See if she rises to the occasion, so to speak. If she no longer has you to lead,and she can't use sex to get her desired result, will she rise up? It's super important that you find out.

A male user (can't remember who) once told a BH he was in a "p&*%y coma" because he was lulled into complacency by the porn-star level sex WW his wife was giving him in the wake of the affair. It's a horribly crude term (to say the least) but it's entirely accurate. All those love hormones that flood your brain after sex are going to prevent you from being able to soberly and critically assess her behavior and her actions in R.

Our advice is not about punishing your wife. It's about you protecting your heart from further harm. It's about her stepping up to the plate and doing the work to reestablish trust, which is something that cannot be achieved through orgasms.

As for this...

An in-house separation to me sounds like living together but elongating physical contact. My best guess is that it would get cold very quickly in the house if we made that rule. Even just removing sex for the table entirely seems like a very complicated prospect at this point as it would likely worsen conflict—right now we are both using it to reconnect and recognize that we care about each other after very difficult discussions. Removing that reprieve will escalate things—perhaps in unintended ways.

If we then add on no hugs, kisses, cuddles, etc., I fear it might entirely sever us.

Stop letting fear guide your actions.

You're worried that depriving her of physical intimacy will ruin any chances of reconciliation, but have you considered all of things that she still has? She remains in the marital home. Her reputation is intact; you haven't screamed from the rooftops that she's an adulteress. You haven't filed for legal separation. You still love her, you're still talking to her, and you still treat her with kindness and respect. You're still in marriage counseling with her. She should be thanking God right now for the fact that she has suffered ZERO consequences as a result of her actions and that you are essentially willing to reconcile with her unconditionally.

If she walks out on you tomorrow, you will lose a self-absorbed, faithless, emotionally unavailable woman. If you walk out on her tomorrow, she will lose a loyal, selfless, and loving man. So why are you the one who is afraid?

...is that a fair amount of time to wait?

If you're unsure, you probably haven't waited long enough. People seem to know when they know.

R throws a monkey wrench into timing, though. One might know they want R quickly - I sure did - but R's success or failure takes time to develop. Worse, it's relatively easy to see when R is a failure - it fails whenever one partner commits a deal-killing act. SO it takes more time to know if R is a success. My W was pretty much as committed to R as a person can be, but it took me at least 3.5 years before I declared a victory - and I know she can screw up even now.

At 2 months out, you're probably still in shock. You're wise to wait until your head, heart, and gut align on the same choice, at least IMO.

*****

Note that some of us go through cycles of in love > out of love > disgust > love WS but not in love with WS > re-attraction > rinse, repeat.

Ride the wave, brother. Have faith in yourself to know when you know.

It’s been two months and I haven’t seen enough change from her (to my satisfaction)—is that a fair amount of time to wait?

I waited almost 2 years and I absolutely regret it. Don't wait as long as me.

I STRONGLY disagree with everyone who says you have to lower your expectations of your wife. Hell no. She can either do what is needed or she can't.

She iS CHOOSING to do a shitty job in reconciliation. She is CHOOSING to continue her selfish behavior because getting what she wants is still what is most important to her. She is absolutely using sex and your desire of an intact family to get what she wants. When you let go of your fear of losing the marriage, she might actually have to do the work she needs to do. I hope you can get there. She can choose to do better if she wants to. She is a coward so you need to let her sink or swim or you will just waste a lot of time watching her try to get out of trouble while you continue to suffer.

Stop the couple's counseling. She should be in her own counseling multiple times per week.

But that’s the point—she wasn’t doing them with him because she loved him or felt loved by him. She did it at first because it was the first time in 15 years she felt a sexual/romantic spark with a man. She kept doing it because the spark was still there for her and she wanted to keep his attention as she felt she liked him more than he cared about her.

How do you know this? Because she told you?

I've read through pages and pages of rationales about why your wife did or didn't do this or that. But you don't really know.

What you do know is what she was willing to do for him, what she was willing to "do to you", and she wasn't willing to do for you.

Unless he somehow threatened or coerced her, one thing you know 100% for sure is that she wanted to do that stuff with him and didn't want to do it with you.

I see people always getting caught up with the "whys" when they reeeeaaallly want reconciliation. Looking for something to make it not as horrible. "It wasn't because she was into him, it was because of XYZ!"

Maybe instead of looking for all of this complexity - and no offense, I am not seeing a ton of complexity in your wife's behaviors, just simplify the "whys" to what you know is true (As described above) and then focus on the "whats".

What did she do to hurt you, abuse you and debase herself and your relationship? What is she doing now - without you dragging her along to rectify her behavior, comfort you, give you what you need to keep the relationship going?

Focus on that, and you'll better understand the real whys, and "what" she really wants now and "what" she wanted then. And where you really are. And who/what you really are to her.

Good luck.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 6:05 PM, Thursday, May 12th]

I agree in essence with faithfulman and others specifically that I’m not sure delving any more into the whys would be useful. I think you know everything you’re ever going to know.

And, WRT the heaving lifting on your WW part, I think that moving forward this should have two major components.

First, that she fixes her personality issues through IC and that you see tangible action oriented changes in her behavior over a reasonable time.

Second, that she focuses on helping you to heal and showing you true remorse and empathy through her actions. She’s no longer allowed to use the excuse that she’s grieving, or dismayed by the fact that she had an A, to interfere with her focusing on you.

However, if you feel the need to initiate specific discussions I don’t think you necessarily should shy away from that just because it should be up to your WW to initiate or lead those discussions, I.e the heavy lifting.

How do you know this? Because she told you?

I've read through pages and pages of rationales about why your wife did or didn't do this or that. But you don't really know.

What you do know is she what was willing to do for him, what she was willing to "do to you", and she wasn't willing to do for you.

Unless he somehow threatened or coerced her, one thing you know 100% for sure is that she wanted to do that stuff with him and didn't want to do it with you.

I see people always getting caught up with the "whys" when they reeeeaaallly want reconciliation. Looking for something to make it not as horrible. "It wasn't because she was into him, it was because of XYZ!"

Maybe instead of looking for all of this complexity - and no offense, I am not seeing a ton of complexity in your wife's behaviors, just simplify the "whys" to what you know is true (As described above) and then focus on the "whats".

What did she do to hurt you, abuse you and debase herself and your relationship? What is she doing now - without you dragging her along to rectify her behavior, comfort you, give you what you need to keep the relationship going?

Focus on that, and you'll better understand the real whys, and "what" she really wants now and "what" she wanted then. And where you really are. And who/what you really are to her.

Good luck.

I'm not looking to make anything less painful or rationalize anything; I'm looking to understand her motivations. I feel like I'm getting there, but it has been through a stubborn willingness on my end to consume pain.

My wife has always been a narcissist constantly playing a victim card. I was aware of it; it annoyed me; I called her out on it constantly. It's perhaps the most annoying trait a person can have in my view--just constantly going through life feeling entitled and complaining about how unfair X thing is. Truthfully, I felt it was relatively harmless in my wife--most of it was complaining about her various jobs over our marriage.

In parallel though, she was destroying our sex life and it was creating significant resentment on my end for her. As a result, as others have pointed out, I lost respect for her--her carefree attitude that I fell in love with became carelessness that angered me. Her easy-going, impulsive behavior became stupidity that was a liability for me to deal with. That's harsh, and it's certainly not the entire lens I viewed my wife, but it was definitely there over the last several years.

The combination of those two factors led me to cut-off participation in my wife's soul-draining victimization conversations. I just hit a wall and couldn't handle them. They were all the same: she'd complain about X and I'd suggest she look at it differently because I disagreed with her entirely. She'd then get upset for me not being in her corner.

Clearly I handled those conversations poorly, as did she, but I flat out told her to stop talking to me about work. And she did (and it was great lol). On her end, she saw it as a severance of our emotional connection. In her defense, I am often more distant to her (or even the children) than I'd like to be. I really value alone time. And we'd hang out together most evenings, but we'd never talk--it was just sitting next to each other on the couch watching TV/movies.

Looking back at our life, she's absolutely correct that we didn't have any emotional depth to our relationship. She felt she couldn't confide in me and I rarely saw value in confiding with her. Again, it sounds harsh and is not representative of the entire relationship, but it's all true. On the whole, I valued her as a partner in raising the kids and a partner in running a life/home together. I greatly enjoyed being around her and have always found her very attractive.

She needed more from me though and never asked--that's all on her. She then unilaterally decided the marriage was over--also all on her. And then she found a spark with another guy and had an affair--also on her.

But the truth, I think, is that the affair was her reengagement with the dating market. She stepped outside of her comfortable life and decided to see what her options were. She didn't have the moral anchor to leave me first because her life with me was preferable to being single, but she very much wanted to know if there was a better partner out there for her.

She thought AP could be that partner--she had butterflies in her stomach when she first kissed him and again when she first fucked him. She needed to know if that sexual spark she used to have with men--me included--was still there. And it was.

And then the bound grew for her--infatuation grew. Maybe he was the future partner for her. THe problem of course, he made it clear that he wasn't leaving his wife. Now her mission changed from exploration of her feelings to winning a man. And she tried--making herself sexually available in his car and over text throughout January. It didn't work--he was keeping her at bay and playing with her emotions--all he wanted was sex.

By late-Jan, she recognized that, but didn't know what to do about it. She got angry--she was with two men and both just wanted to use her for sex. She drank and spent to numb the pain of her pathetic life.

She then started to think while it wasn't the best situation, it wasn't all bad--she had a husband, a family and an AP to fulfill her sexual needs. I think she resolved to ride that out for a bit longer--maybe the affair would fizzle out or maybe they'd keep meeting up for years. Maybe another guy--a more suitable partner--would come along and she could give that a try. Before she figured anything out--and she admits early March was a mess for her thinking this all through--I found out.

When I found out, we began talking--constantly. I opened my heart and soul to her. Within the first week, the reality hit her. She fucked up. She had someone who loved and respected her and didn't know it. She impulsively threw away a marriage without having a god damn clue what she was throwing away. The fear sank in. She might lose the best things in her life--a home with a loving husband and children. Then the regret, panic, and self-pity overtook her.

Every day she's trying to tell me how she feels and I'm telling her she's a narcissist and a liar. Her instinct is to defend herself, but then her IC and our CT are echoing all the same points. She is selfish and she has been awful to the people in her life who love her. That's a bomb going off in her gut and she's now trying to relearn how to think and feel.

It hasn't gone well so far in my estimation--but perhaps my standards are too high. It doesn't matter though because this experiment has a clock. Can she get her shit together and prove to me that she loves and respects me? Make me really believe that? I'm waiting to find out.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 6:37 PM, Thursday, May 12th]

I agree in essence with faithfulman and others specifically that I’m not sure delving any more into the whys would be useful. I think you know everything you’re ever going to know.

And, WRT the heaving lifting on your WW part, I think that moving forward this should have two major components.

First, that she fixes her personality issues through IC and that you see tangible action oriented changes in her behavior over a reasonable time.

Second, that she focuses on helping you to heal and showing you true remorse and empathy through her actions. She’s no longer allowed to use the excuse that she’s grieving, or dismayed by the fact that she had an A, to interfere with her focusing on you.

However, if you feel the need to initiate specific discussions I don’t think you necessarily should shy away from that just because it should be up to your WW to initiate or lead those discussions, I.e the heavy lifting.

That's 100% where I am right now. Those rules have been laid out: everything she says and does is with the primary purpose of comforting and healing me; no more discussions with me about her self-pity; she spends all her other available time working on herself.

And of course there are and will be things I want to dig into--our past sex life is one of them--but I expect her to do most of the talking. I'm not doing any more heavy lifting in this recovery--she needs to find her own answers.

Now sex with me, according to her is different for the first time in her entire life. I’m as skeptical as you are. But my eyes are open and I feel like this is a relatively easy thing to explore and probe. She’s around me all the time—she can’t fake it always all the time.

I think what's so tricky about this is it's likely genuine in the moment. She's probably not creating a Machiavellian plan to appease you but instead her idea of love and sex is so wrapped up in subtle manipulation to get what she wants that she is not even aware of it.

I think that this is actually more evidence that her ideas of love and sex are NOT fixed. How crazy does this sound? She breaks down the marriage, brings it to the brink, devastates you, and NOW she feels more connected to you than ever before? So she needs to grievously hurt you in order to feel this level of closeness? She needs to be put in this extreme of a situation regarding winning you back in order to rise to the occasion of fixing your broken sex life? Two months is not a long time when it comes to something this big. It's a drop in the bucket. Of course it's easy for her to still feel the thrill or pressure from it. It's still ongoing. In 2 years though when you are healed and life more or less goes "back to normal" for her? Doubtful.

Since she is emotionally immature, she probably believes whatever she feels in the minute is IT meaning she felt super connected and in love when you met, she felt that spark with OM and believed it was real when things started with him, and now she's back to feeling that way about you. Otherwise, how does any of her previous actions make sense? Do you really believe she would have married you if she felt completely disconnected and like you had been using her this whole time or that signing the marriage certificate caused her to fall out of love and feel used? It's like a teenager who thinks every new crush is "The One" and that they've never felt this much in love despite it being the 5th "The One" this month. She doesn't have the insight to pause and think about how she's felt some intense version of this before but inevitably it always wears off. That's why these statements from her come off as ingenuine even if she may actually be experiencing them in this way. She probably thinks it will just magically continue from here without her cultivating it because she has so little awareness of it but we all know how that goes. If she doesn't dig into this, she won't be able to handle the come down in 6+ months. She won't have the insight to realize that it's a natural part of the process and isn't directly tied to love. God forbid you plateau into the POLF (plain of lethal flatness) in your recovery and things go completely cold. Things will go right back to how they were because it's impossible for anyone to keep up that high level of energy/anxiety/drama she needs to keep that drive going. If she coasts along thinking that things will always be fine in that department because they're fine right now at this moment, I don't see how she can work on fixing that part of herself. She won't know what to look for and change if she isn't aware of it. Her IC probably won't pick up on it if she doesn't express the desire to change it.

Just to reinforce what Dude67 said...

Second, that she focuses on helping you to heal and showing you true remorse and empathy through her actions. She’s no longer allowed to use the excuse that she’s grieving, or dismayed by the fact that she had an A, to interfere with her focusing on you.

"Through her actions" is key because all you're getting right now is words, which are worth less than nothing when spouted from the mouth of a liar. In fact, I would argue that what she doesn't say (ie, clamming up when you ask questions) and when she speaks (ie, trying to make excuses for herself after you've called out her bullshit) is much more insightful to you about her thoughts and intentions than what she says.

She needs to show you her remorse and rebuild through actions over an extensive period of time. The following isn't an exhaustive list, but just a few examples:

-She finds and reads books on affair recovery and looks for resources online
-She schedules her own appointments with individual counselors
-If you get any homework in MC, she follows through on it and doesn't put off
-When she says she is going to do something, she does it
-She brings up conversations about the affair herself

And the most important thing of all is that she does the work she needs to do without any assurance from you that you will stay married.

If she is a narcissist, you are wasting your time trying to reconcile. In the years I've been here(I read for years before I became a member), I have never seen anyone truly reconcile with a narcissist.

If she is a narcissist, she can not feel empathy. She can say she does. She can put on a good act,but all she is doing is pretending,to get the desired outcome she wants. She can pretend not to be selfish,and even be unselfish at times,but she will always revert back to who she is.

If she is a narcissist it's WHO SHE IS. She can not change that. Her mask will always slip.

[This message edited by HellFire at 7:04 PM, Thursday, May 12th]

I couldn’t agree more with HellFire. If your WW is a narcissist, this all may be an effort in futility.

My SIL is a full blown narcissist and no matter what the scenario, everything is ALL about her and her feelings. She had zero empathy for other people and this hasn’t changed one bit over the 20+ years I have known her, even with her going through IC. Something to really consider moving forward.

She needs to show you her remorse and rebuild through actions over an extensive period of time. The following isn't an exhaustive list, but just a few examples:

-She finds and reads books on affair recovery and looks for resources online
-She schedules her own appointments with individual counselors
-If you get any homework in MC, she follows through on it and doesn't put off

Yes to those.

-When she says she is going to do something, she does it

I think she has failed here. She's said all along she would focus on empathy, but at least once a day she says something incredibly non-empathetic. She answers too quickly--instinctively--before she has a chance to process what the answer means from an angle other than her self-interest. It's why she's better when she's writing to me or is prepared to have a certain conversation. I need her to be better in following through with the things she's committed to me.

-She brings up conversations about the affair herself

She does this, but I want more of it. I'm looking for her to be far more introspective about her actions throughout the affair--in doing so, she has the potential to unearth a tremendous amount about her behavior and psychology. I'm not seeing enough of this though.

And the most important thing of all is that she does the work she needs to do without any assurance from you that you will stay married.

That she has--she seems to recognize that even if we fail, she has a lot of work to do on herself before she enters into a new relationship.

If she is a narcissist, you are wasting your time trying to reconcile. In the years I've been here(I read for years before I became a member), I have never seen anyone truly reconcile with a narcissist.

If she is a narcissist, she can not feel empathy. She can say she does. She can put on a good act, but all she is doing is pretending, to get the desired outcome she wants. She can pretend not to be selfish, and even be unselfish at times, but she will always revert back to who she is.

If she is a narcissist it's WHO SHE IS. She can not change that. Her mask will always slip.

That's exactly what I've observed thus far. I have no idea if she can change or not though, but I'll take your word on it that the odds aren't in my favor.

To be fair though, I don't know that she's a narcissist--it's just my amateur diagnosis for her victimization and lack of empathy--I also don't have a comprehensive understanding on the degrees of narcissism.

I couldn’t agree more with HellFire. If your WW is a narcissist, this all may be an effort in futility.

My SIL is a full blown narcissist and no matter what the scenario, everything is ALL about her and her feelings. She had zero empathy for other people and this hasn’t changed one bit over the 20+ years I have known her, even with her going through IC. Something to really consider moving forward.

I suspect I'm being unfair to my wife. I know the people you're talking about and that's not her. She's largely compassionate, but she has a selfish streak that emerges sometimes. I see flares of it--and it has especially been pronounced for me now--as I sit here suffering listening to her periodically complain about her misery is a hard pill to swallow.

Dr., agreed, there are too many people that are armchair psychologists, and only a qualified professional can diagnose these personality disorders.

My SIL hasn’t been diagnosed as narcissistic, but when you compare my SIL’s traits to the those cited in the DSM-5, it is obvious that my SIL is a narc. She exhibits a strong "yes" on all nine indicators, which is sufficient for me!

My Mom is a mental health professional of over 45 years and knows my SIL well. She believes she is a narc with likely histrionic personality tendencies.

Not saying your WW is a narc, but sure sounds like she hits many of the indicators:

A grandiose sense of self-importance

A preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

A belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions

A need for excessive admiration

A sense of entitlement

Interpersonally exploitive behavior

A lack of empathy

Envy of others or a belief that others are envious of him or her

A demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes

You’re only a couple of months in.

This is a years long process for her to unravel her dysfunctional character with a professional psychologist.

Problem is you are trying to do the job of a psychologist.

Cause you feel like you need to fix it. You’ve always been that man that needs to fix everything and everyone.

Your wife mirrors mine a lot. I’m 4 years down the track. Let me tel you, I’m still hurting. A lot. Every day.

Words are just words. Her actions will determine what the world will look like for you and her in the next few years.

You’re not yet at the suicide stage. Narcissists use that to control the situation. She will do it when hysterical bonding ends. And she realises no matter how much pussy bombing, you become reluctant to continue eating the shit sandwich. Don’t fall for that. Every time she threatens suicide pick up the phone and call her psychologist. Or the police to tell them. It will become a pattern. It’s a manipulative move on her behalf to shut down conversation and make it all about her so your feelings are negated. She will see you as the problem and she will keep reminding you that you must get over this eventually. No one gets over betrayal. They just live with it. Ask anyone here, they don’t get over cheating, ever. She wants you to and is being manipulative to achieve her aim.

[This message edited by Mene at 9:52 PM, Thursday, May 12th]

You’re only a couple of months in.

This is a years long process for her to unravel her dysfunctional character with a professional psychologist.

Problem is you are trying to do the job of a psychologist.

Cause you feel like you need to fix it. You’ve always been that man that needs to fix everything and everyone.

Your wife mirrors mine a lot. I’m 4 years down the track. Let me tel you, I’m still hurting. A lot. Every day.

Words are just words. Her actions will determine what the world will look like for you and her in the next few years.

You’re not yet at the suicide stage. Narcissists use that to control the situation. She will do it when hysterical bonding ends. And she realises no matter how much pussy bombing, you become reluctant to continue eating the shit sandwich. Don’t fall for that. Every time she threatens suicide pick up the phone and call her psychologist. Or the police to tell them. It will become a pattern. It’s a manipulative move on her behalf to shut down conversation and make it all about her so your feelings are negated. She will see you as the problem and she will keep reminding you that you must get over this eventually. No one gets over betrayal. They just live with it. Ask anyone here, they don’t get over cheating, ever. She wants you to and is being manipulative to achieve her aim.

That was incredibly difficult to read. Largely because I suspect you’re right about my ability to "get over this"—I feel like I’ll always feel betrayed by her and that is why a part of me wants to just quit now.

As for the suicidal threats, I don’t see that coming now—she loves the kids too much. I wouldn’t be shocked by anything though. And the manipulation of that is incredibly hard because leaving her then would feel especially callous.

Dr., my WW attempted suicide about a week after dday and after a very tough night of "discussions" between us. I came back into the Living Room just in time to see her down 600mg of morphine. Thankfully, I was there to pull pills from her mouth and make her throw them up.

My WW absolutely loves our Son, but as she said, it became all too much (seeing me in such pain) that she felt it would be best for everyone. I only told one of my close friends about this (and detailed it on SI) and the consensus was it was manipulation tactic.

I don’t know if it was or not, but nothing is worth taking your own life. I’m very thankful that I happened to come back in, in time to take action.

Jameson, not to hijack but, if you happen to walk in at that moment...it was a manipulation tactic. If you actually wanted to do it you would make sure to pick a time and place to not be interrupted.

And the manipulation of that is incredibly hard because leaving her then would feel especially callous.

She knows you well. And she's counting on just this.

If/when she makes that threat,immediately call 911. It's what you are supposed to do in that situation. They will get her the help she needs. And if she is using it to manipulate you,she will never do it again.