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It's odd to me,that she keeps wanting to have certain conversations in MC.

Somewhere in this thread,you said you will tell her over, and over what you need, and nothing clicks. It only clicks when the mc tells her.

I think that's very interesting.

I've thought about that as well. My gut tells me it's a lack of trust in me--if the MC says something, she has complete trust in it, if I say something that conflicts with how she feels, she has doubt because perhaps I don't have her best interest in mind. I've also noticed it if we stray from something the MC says--for example, the MC has suggested for us to talk less and for our talks to be much less psychologically in-depth. So if a conversation becomes hard on her, she'll say something like: "the [CT] told us we shouldn't be having these types of conversations without her."

Another alternative is that she's just really scared. She thinks if she follows everything the MC says, the marriage will be saved, so if we go in a different direction, maybe she's making a big mistake.

Again, I will suggest you bring her here. We have a few great waywards who can explain it to her,in great detail,what she needs to be doing. And what work she needs to do on herself.
On one hand,it does seem she truly doesn't know what's necessary. OTOH, she managed to carry out an affair all by herself, so one would think she could figure this out. I mean,she has use of the internet. She could find help here if she tried. If she is full of shit,the waywards here will call her out on it. And it might help you to see how she responds to them.

She is VERY opposed to writing and communicating on an online forum. She'll read all the books and spend as much time in therapy as she can, but opening herself up to judgement from online strangers is a major fear for her. She hasn't really opened up as to why, but I suspect it's tied to how she felt with the "sex intervention" back in college, when all the girls got together to tell her to stop being a whore. She is petrified of judgement and she knows how awful what she did was, so in turn, she knows she'll face a tremendous amount of criticism.

I think its because she is hoping the mc will tell you what you say you need,isn't necessary. And the example you gave solidifies that.

I think its terribly sad that she has to have a third party tell her to do, what he husband is saying he needs.

I also believe she doesn't want to come here,because she's worried she will be called out on her behavior since dday. See, the wayward forum is very protected. She can choose to only get advice from other waywards. I don't recall a single thread in which any new WS, who uses the stop sign to prevent BS from posting, in which a WS was raked over the coals for their behavior during the affair. They may get told that a particular part will be very difficult for their BH to deal with. But they don't get judgement from other WS. Now,her behavior since dday will be called out. They will tell her what she's done wrong,why it's not helping, and what she needs to do to change that behavior.

Honestly, at this point,I would make her posting here a requirement. You are falling out of love with her. You are tired of having to lead her and hear her say she doesn't know what to do. The wayward forum will tell her what she needs to do, and help her work through each step. If she can't take this step,"scary" as it may be, then she's not serious about changing. She's throwing pity parties,and hoping you will feel sorry enough for her to let this go.

Also, I don't buy that she is worried about judgement,dating back 20 years ago to her college days. If she was worried about people thinking she was "slutty," then she wouldn't have behaved as she did. I mean, there's a real easy way to prevent people from thinking you sleep around. She jumped into this affair with both feet. Any woman knows sleeping with another woman's husband is trashy. She was perfectly ok with it.

You've done a lot of explaining her behavior in this thread. All based on what she has told you. Yet,you are still catching her in lies. I believe she's been lying to you all along. Again,to get the outcome she desires. I think she's a lot more clever,more devious and manipulative,than you think she is. As a woman, we often see things men may not, when it comes to other women. Added in,we don't love her. We are not blinded by that perspective.

Just some things to consider.

I think its because she is hoping the mc will tell you what you say you need,isn't necessary. And the example you gave solidifies that.

I think its terribly sad that she has to have a third party tell her to do, what he husband is saying he needs.

I also believe she doesn't want to come here,because she's worried she will be called out on her behavior since dday. See, the wayward forum is very protected. She can choose to only get advice from other waywards. I don't recall a single thread in which any new WS, who uses the stop sign to prevent BS from posting, in which a WS was raked over the coals for their behavior during the affair. They may get told that a particular part will be very difficult for their BH to deal with. But they don't get judgement from other WS. Now,her behavior since dday will be called out. They will tell her what she's done wrong,why it's not helping, and what she needs to do to change that behavior.

Honestly, at this point,I would make her posting here a requirement. You are falling out of love with her. You are tired of having to lead her and hear her say she doesn't know what to do. The wayward forum will tell her what she needs to do, and help her work through each step. If she can't take this step,"scary" as it may be, then she's not serious about changing. She's throwing pity parties,and hoping you will feel sorry enough for her to let this go.

Also, I don't buy that she is worried about judgement,dating back 20 years ago to her college days. If she was worried about people thinking she was "slutty," then she wouldn't have behaved as she did. I mean, there's a real easy way to prevent people from thinking you sleep around. She jumped into this affair with both feet. Any woman knows sleeping with another woman's husband is trashy. She was perfectly ok with it.

You've done a lot of explaining her behavior in this thread. All based on what she has told you. Yet,you are still catching her in lies. I believe she's been lying to you all along. Again,to get the outcome she desires. I think she's a lot more clever,more devious and manipulative,than you think she is. As a woman, we often see things men may not, when it comes to other women. Added in,we don't love her. We are not blinded by that perspective.

Just some things to consider.

I should have been more clear--she's not worried about posting here because people will think she's a slut, she's worried (I think) because she knows she will be harshly judged (so we agree on her reasoning). I'm relating it back to her college experience as it was a scaring judgement moment in her life and ever since she's had a deep aversion to judgement (and the label of whore and slut).

I could certainly force her to post here, but I haven't pulled that trigger. It's also worth noting that on the whole, this forum has been invaluable to me, but there are many posts within this thread that were very unhelpful or written with thoughtless tone. I can handle it--I even like it sometimes--but I don't know that she can. She'll stumble upon one off-color post and shut down. I even shared some posts written here with her in the early days and she had very adverse reactions.

I'm not wholly opposed to it though, so I'll keep thinking it through.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:15 PM, Sunday, May 15th]

Always feel 'betrayed'? What is that feeling? Angry? Sad? Scared? Ashamed? Head ache? Sore shoulders? (I'll assume it doesn't feel good.)

The fact is that you've been betrayed. I think you've also related ways in which you've betrayed yourself.

These acts of betrayal are part of your history. How can you deny them? How can you expect to forget them?

It feels like the person I loved does not love me and it makes me sad. And she had me fooled--I thought she very much loved me. So now my digging, I suspect, is me finding out how to know the difference moving forward--be it with her or anyone else. I lived a very naive life clearly; I was overconfident in her feelings for me. I still feel like I have more to learn from her before I go my separate way or rebuild with her.

How is it possible to unilaterally decide a marriage is over without a conversation? Who does that? How do they do it? I have some of those answers, which I've built gradually over two months, but I want to exhaust every avenue and explore every corner. Honestly, what else do I have to do? If I'm waiting around anyway, I might as well learn.

Any thoughts on my last post of discussing with her the order of precedence in "the work" she does. It struck me odd that with the two things she told you she works on in IC: your healing and her self esteem, she appears to be prioritizing the work on herself above giving you what you need to heal your emotional wounds.

I understand why. Building up and finding her voice when interacting is much more self satisfying than showing empathy to you and fulfilling what you need even though she didn’t hesitate to fulfill those of the AP.

I would discuss it. Both are important efforts. But if she doesn’t do them in the right order she still loses her husband and family.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 7:51 PM, Friday, May 13th]

Any thoughts on my last post of discussing with her the order of precedence in "the work" she does. It struck me odd that with the two things she told you she works on in IC: your healing and her self esteem, she appears to be prioritizing the work on herself above giving you what you need to heal your emotional wounds.

I understand why. Building up and finding her voice when interacting is much more self satisfying than showing empathy to you and fulfilling what you need even though she didn’t hesitate to fulfill those of the AP.

I would discuss it. Both are important efforts. But if she doesn’t do them in the right order she still loses her husband and family.

Yes, apologies for not replying to that. When she started IC, the first three sessions or so were focused on how to help me heal (mixed in with family background stuff). I suggested she should try to focus more of her time on herself—that she has books and we have CT for her support of me. I have felt that her personal issues are a major conflict in us reconciling, so I want to make sure she’s tackling those.

So her last three sessions or so have focused more on her issues (again, with lots of family background woven in). The primary focus has been on rebuilding her self-esteem.

If you want to lead her, but you also don't want to do all the work, make it so you raise a topic, then she raises a topic.
This kind of forces her to lead, but you are a driver to keep her moving. Does that make sense?
Also, another way to improve her internal focus is to not tell her how you feel then have her do the same, instead use questions to direct your conversations. Then have her use questions as well. It is like the writing how you think the other person is feeling, then going from there. Maybe have her raise questions as well.
Something my CT tried which didn't work, but my friends did like because they were bad at talking as it always led to yelling over each other. They would have to go to the garage, turn on some music to drown out their voices, then they would sit across a table. They would each write out on a piece of paper what they were mad or sad about recently. Each sheet would have its own instance. Then they would write down up to 2 lines, then exchange and write back 2 more lines on the sheet's topic. It was hilarious to watch once because they both would get so pissed off, but it was a quiet exchange. They would do this until the sheets were filled up front and back. Then they would stop, take 5 minutes away and have a drink. Then they would return and talk about if they wanted to do another set of sheets.
It would support her better writing style, but your need for immediate answers. Just something to think about trying.

No,you were clear. Perhaps it's me who was unclear.

I get that she doesn't want to feel judged. Perhaps she shouldn't have behaved in a way that would cause her to feel as such. She had no problem in doing so. Jumped in with both feet and paid quite a bit of money to do so. It's only the judgement she has an issue with..not her actions.

Again..the wayward forum,with a stop sign..she won't be judged. She will be called out when she makes excuses.

You say she will shut down over one harsh post. That's part of her work. She needs to work on being strong enough to handle the tough advice. Reconciliation isn't for the weak. It's damn hard,for both BS and WS. If she can't handle a tough post, she won't be able to do her part in reconciliation. She HAS to do the heavy lifting. Not you. This is HER work. Not yours.

It is ok to make requirements.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:04 PM, Friday, May 13th]

I do not think it's a good idea for your wife to join this site.

She will be viewing your posts, and you will be viewing hers, it will be another source of contention.

As other members have stated, this is your safe space, and if she were to join, you'd no longer have the freedom to express yourself.

I've been on these boards 13 years+ and I can only recall a handful of instances where both WH/BS made it work.

Annb, typically I completely agree with you. My suggestion is based on the fact that he's falling out of love,seriously considering separation, and has a WS who claims she doesn't know what to do. Add in,he is exhausted leading this attempted reconciliation, with a WS who plays the pity card,and has him convinced she is trying,therefore making him feel bad about considering doing what he feels he needs to do to heal. The waywards here will see through that shit. I think it would be beneficial for him to see how she responds to being told what work she should be doing, and being called on her shit. I don't believe she will do the work. Even after being offered the guidance here. Seeing that will help him make those decisions, without guilt.

I see it as a "hail Mary."

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:40 PM, Friday, May 13th]

My wife wrote to me again today. It seems heartfelt, but again it’s only words. Nothing about it really moved the needle for me, but perhaps I’m just becoming callous to her words.

Edit: I also should ask: is it worth posting her official testimony of her time with AP? It’s incredibly long, so I’m unsure if anyone would want to spend the time reading through it. I’m curious if a full outline of the events would be helpful though.

Day of Reflection

Today, I have been reflecting on uncompleted tasks. The idea of taking on too much and the idea of getting overwhelmed. During the pandemic I noticed that simple tasks became a challenge. My attention span for work wasn’t consistent. I knew I was doing the bare minimum. I felt uninspired, overwhelmed and exhausted. I felt the house became toxic because I worked there, lived there and there was no separation. When I began going to work in the Fall of 2020 it helped because some structure came into place.

The idea of completing the simplest tasks continued, but simultaneously I took on more and I felt like I was running a sprint. The idea of wanting the best for my children by putting them in all activities. Was that what they wanted? I wanted them to participate and to try new things and overall socialize with kids. They weren’t going to school consistently and I didn’t wan them to feel isolated.

But the more I took on with the activities and work and then the PTA the more I felt I was isolating myself. I was spread too thin and I was filling holes for things I was feeling. I was feeling unhappiness because I was unmotivated at work. There were constant road blocks. I was feeling distant from [BH] and felt I couldn’t communicate to him. And I felt very isolated with my family. But that is something I chose. I decided to take on all of these tasks and activities and ultimately I wasn’t talking with them enough or as much as I should have been.

The idea of spinning your wheels until you get out of the ditch was an oddly familiar feeling. One I had right after the car accident. The car accident quite literally stopped me in my tracks. Reflecting on the year prior I had been fired from a job that ultimately I felt unmotivated from and over time my work suffered. When I tried to correct it, it was too late, I was working late hours the last month (1 -2am) consistently and then over time I started making even more mistakes. I can admit to myself that I was the one who caused me being fired. I wallowed for 3 months because I couldn’t find a job. In fact, I had been trying to find one and I couldn’t.

[BH] and I got married in that time [2012] and then I found a job right before we got married. I was so excited and I felt it was all coming together. The first job didn’t last more than 6 weeks. It was a small company that took you for granted. Then I hit my road block with Company#3 while we were building a house. Company#3 was by far the most high intense work environment. And for someone who felt so bad about getting fired, but ultimately was fired because she didn’t work hard enough I swore I wouldn’t do that again. I never wanted to be in that situation again.

Company#3 was not for the weak. It was high pressure constantly in view of the CEO who was very stressful and intense and I could feel the days I couldn’t breathe. I felt bad because I wasn’t there for the house building which was super stressful on [BH] and I remember thinking this is a milestone in my life that I’m missing. But I needed a job to sustain this life. I was grateful when Company#4 called. It was a work environment I thrived in and was a lot less pressure. The nail in the coffin that year was the car accident, which stopped me in my tracks. I went to see a therapist who ultimately didn’t give me the tools to not put myself in that position again.

[BH] keeps saying that it is easy to cheat again. He said now that we’ve witnessed the feeling of this pain it would be easier the next time. Truly something I can’t believe. How could I do this once let alone twice.

The people I have caused pain too. My mother and sister being accomplices and talking me not into doing it, but carrying it on anyway. I’m not even sure how one could forgive. I became consumed by the affair and they were the only two outside people to know and I monopolized the conversation about it. Something absolutely devastating and they chose to listen. They listened because they are my family, but I can only imagine how disappointed and disgusted they were. The things I was saying in the text messages. Yes, they love me unconditionally, but how could I cause them pain again? What would they even say the next time – I think that they wouldn’t talk with me. I think they might cut me off.

My in-laws. Each day they have to take care of my children. How do they get over the hurdle of what I have done. I know overtime they will and they have been ultimately so good and tried to be as kind as possible throughout this whole thing. It could have been easy to ignore me or just communicate through [BH]. But that is not the type of person either of them are. I truly believe they are disappointed. I’m sure there is some judgement, but ultimately facing them each day is crushing knowing they are trying to accept something I caused.

Then I have [BH]. You know the most amazing thing about him is that even after all of the pain I have caused he still will tell me how attractive I am or he will still try to comfort me when all of this pain seeps in. I ask myself, why couldn’t I talk to him 2 years ago about everything I was feeling. I knew he didn’t want to discuss work, but I could have told him how I was feeling emotionally. I could have been transparent or I could have written it all down.

I chose not to and I chose to have an affair. I chose to further distance our relationship. I look at [BH] each day and feel the pain in his eyes. The idea knowing that his partner pulled the rug from underneath him and then left him with nothing. I left him someone standing in front of him became this cruel, selfish person.

Now there will be dates will trigger him. He has to wonder how many years will those dates trigger him. He is trying to be present every day and there are moments that hit him where he feels so alone and feels so much pain. I look at him each night when he goes to sleep and can’t because he has these images of the affair in his head. Yes, the sex will mildly comfort him – but how many months of this does he need to endure.

So in conclusion this is not a path I can go down again. I can’t hurt the ones I love again. I need to ensure that therapy aids me with some of the tools I need to go forward.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:16 PM, Sunday, May 15th]

It seems like she could find better ways to spend her time and energy than these woah is me letters that really feel like she is writing for herself as the intended audience. This kind of thing could be for her own journaling. It doesnt help you with anything and it feels like she thinks it should.

Talk is cheap and it seems like talk is all she is willing to come up with.

Why are you discussing with her post-separation feelings and dating? That’s irrelevant. If you separate why would you care what she does? Why would you give a fuck? She knows that even with separation and divorce you will be there for her. Again you’re trying to fix her and the situation. She says she will have all this excitement about new relationships and the issues that go with it. Nothing about how sad she will be about your marriage ending. She’s totally obsessed with herself. She really doesn’t care for you.

[This message edited by Mene at 8:28 AM, Saturday, May 14th]

Ever the contrarian, I still think she is slowly making progress. Her note to you, if only 50% heartfelt, is 50% better than the pre affair her.

I said it in the last line of my prior post, and Hellfire then said it a lot better than me, that I think you need to make it a requirement at this point that she post on the Wayward forum with the Stop sign.

This is a must do at this point. If I were to guess, I would say that the logical part of your brain (which is the bigger part) is deceiving the what you really want part of your brain.

I don’t want to put words into your mouth, but I’ll hazard a guess that you haven’t actually fallen out of love with your WW. Every time you reach a disappointing moment, however, it must feel that you are falling out of love with her. Then, when you see a bit of light somewhere in there you say that there is some hope and a reason to stick around a bit longer.

What you’re experiencing is the roller coaster. The roller coaster will continue for quite a while. In your situation, I recommend that you ride the roller coaster as long as you can stand it until it hits you that you can eventually make it to the other side of R or you can’t.

All of this being said, I’ll reiterate that I strongly recommend your WW start to post on the Wayward forum under the Stop sign.

No. Just no.

Please do not invite Mrs Strangelove to post here.

1. This is Dr's place where he has shared his thoughts and feeling and opinions openly with the group without any fear of judgement. If there is judgement, the judging is done anonymously which is often very good.

2. If she starts her thread on Waywards 95% of us here would go see what she is saying about things and Dr's thread would become cross pollinated. There are other sites she can go to like TAM and LS.

2 B. There would be some folks posting on her thread about what Dr. is saying on his thread.

3. When she knows about Dr's thread she will read that as well (referring back to #1, this is his safe space) and some of the harsh things he has said here to us should be best kept here. I think that people use the group in these forums as a sounding board, bouncing ideas and tactics before talking to WS in real life.

Just my opinion and I may be wrong. Use your judgement doc.

[This message edited by MickeyBill2016 at 3:35 AM, Saturday, May 14th]

Another rough night.

I read through her lengthy testimony of the affair again (first time since she read it to me in early April). It left me feeling sad, as expected, but no new revelations were discovered.

After the kids were in bed, we sat together and she knew I was in a funk. To her credit though, she was awesome—she talked and smiled, was a little sexy, but most of all, she was very light. Before long, my sadness melted away and we spent about 90 minutes chatting about all kinds of things, including the affair—all my sadness was gone in those moments though.

We should have gone to bed, but I decided to broach the topic of her posting here (I hadn’t read Mickey’s advice yet, which I agree with honestly). I told her community support from people who have experienced what she has might help her.

She was immediately resistant, as she has always expressed. She noted that because of her anxiety, she knew she could read ten helpful posts and feel it was productive, but it would only take one post that read: "Reconciliation isn’t worth it for you—just leave your husband," and she knew it would send her spiraling.

I gently pressed, suggesting that such conflict might be good for her as she faces her fear of criticism and judgement. It might make her a stronger person in the end.

That’s when I saw her anger and resentment for me flow back into her—her eyes filled with contempt for me as she did her best to mask it. I could see what she was thinking: this asshole always thinks he knows what’s best for me!

Despite her efforts to mask it, her voice raised and the anger was obvious. Her anger triggered my anger.

I told her how absurd she was acting—how she seemingly agreed that everything is about my healing, but virtually every day she’s getting angry with me over suggestions to heal me or this marriage. Her lack of empathy was over-whelming. I told her all she had to do was say: "I need to give this a bit more thought—maybe it would be helpful and I don’t see it—let me think it over a bit." But she couldn’t do that; it was instant dismissal topped off with anger for me for even suggesting it.

We went upstairs to bed, me now angry and her realizing she messed up (again).

In bed she apologized for being so dismissive and she agreed that if it was something I wanted her to do, she should just do it no questions asked—and she acknowledged that I could be right and it might help her.

I told her it wasn’t about the forum—just like it wasn’t about her masterbating for me—it’s just about her attitude, lack of empathy and obvious issues of resentment she still has for me.

She then brought up the letter she wrote me last night (the one I shared a few posts up). She said she asked me what I thought about it earlier in the night and I didn’t have any comments (all I told her is that I really appreciated her writing and sharing it with me).

She said she revealed to me in it that she had been in a depression these last couple of years and wanted to know how it made me feel. So I told her it made me incredibly sad to know my wife was depressed, but if she looked back at the last six months, she’d see the incredible efforts I was making to figure out why she was so sad.

I’d try to talk with her about it 3-4x a week, knowing something was off and her keeping her wall up and telling me everything was good, or blaming it on just some stress at work or with the kids, but she’s never expand on it despite my probes.

I pointed out that I tried to help through my actions because words were failing—I took her to Italy (Oct.), the family went to Disney World (Dec.), I took her to Miami (Feb.). I also brought her to several nice dinners and bought her roses on Valentine’s Day—all my effort to get her out of whatever funk she was struggling with.

She responded, telling me: "Well sure, it looks good from your perspective if you only use the last six months." (Implication being that I was being a good husband then and her a bad wife, but what about before?)

I was honest and told her I didn’t really she her depression before that—truthfully, her behavior change wasn’t apparent to me until Dec., coinciding with the affair. I told her she went through such great efforts to mask her feelings from me and now is angry with me that I didn’t spot her issues. She agreed that she was being totally unfair.

Even worse though, I pointed out that she was doing this now. I told her I’m a wreck over the affair and I genuinely don’t have the mental or emotional capacity to support her over her feelings of depression last year—it’s just not my job right now. The entire conversation was exhibit 1,000 of how incredibly selfish she is. And she is oblivious to it—she really has no idea, to her she thinks she’s just opening up to me about her feelings like I asked.

I explained that it’s great she’s opening up and sharing with me now, but it can’t come with an expectation that I can support and help her right now—that has to be for her IC.

We lied there, and I started to become upset, seeing she might be incapable of change. I went into the bathroom to cry (to the same spot I was in on D-Day reading through her phone when I broke down)—I’ve been going in on occasion at night throughout this recovery.

I sat on the bathroom floor thinking the marriage might really be over. And it occurred to me, not once had she ever come into the bathroom in an attempt to console me—in fact, almost always she’d be sound asleep upon my return. For her, her escape has been to go take a bath—I always give her some initial space and then come up to check on her afterward. She’s noted to me how grateful she is that I do that as it shows how much I love and care about her.

I came out of the bathroom and she was still awake (I had only been in there less than 10 minutes this time). I told her my observation and her ease of going to sleep while I am suffering.

She said I was being resentful of her for going to bed—pointing out that I’ve brought this up before (it’s true, I have marveled on how quickly she can go to sleep at times, especially when she should theoretically be overwhelmed with thoughts).

Her selfishness was just too overwhelming for me to deal with. We lied there again quietly and I just started to feel such pity for her. I could tell none of this was malicious on her end—she really can’t see it. She’s a horrible person and there’s no way around it for me anymore.

I told her I didn’t hate her and that I just felt bad for her. She asked me what I saw when I looked at her; I quickly responded: "a selfish person incapable of empathy—that’s it."

We both then fell asleep without further conversation. I woke up early this morning to write about it here—get my thoughts out. I feel the marriage spiraling well beyond my control.

She did mention last night that she agreed with me that IC for her two times a week would be good for her. Our CT this week was cancelled, but we’re scheduled on Monday and we’re going to suggest to her that perhaps I keep seeing her as my IC while my wife doubles up on her IC. We’ll get the CT’s take on it and go from there. But right now there is no marriage to save until she can begin a change in her behavior and thinking.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:11 PM, Saturday, May 14th]

I don’t want to put words into your mouth, but I’ll hazard a guess that you haven’t actually fallen out of love with your WW. Every time you reach a disappointing moment, however, it must feel that you are falling out of love with her. Then, when you see a bit of light somewhere in there you say that there is some hope and a reason to stick around a bit longer.

What you’re experiencing is the roller coaster. The roller coaster will continue for quite a while. In your situation, I recommend that you ride the roller coaster as long as you can stand it until it hits you that you can eventually make it to the other side of R or you can’t.

I don’t honestly know my comprehensive feelings for her right now. It doesn’t feel like I love her, though I do certainly care about her and want to see the best for her. She’s been the most important person in my life for 15+ years and she’s the mother of my children.

I’ve come to feel that I can’t live with her the rest of my life as she is—how much will she need to change? I don’t know yet. But I really haven’t seen anything thus far to indicate she is capable of changing her behavior or how she thinks.

Bigger than all of this though is still my feeling that I need to give this my all on behalf of my children—I know many in this thread disagree with my position, but it’s unwavering. I’m locked into it and nothing I’ve read here has moved the needle an inch for me.

So I know two months isn’t enough time and I’ve gotta ride this wave longer—so I will. But I’d be lying to myself and everyone here if I told you I didn’t think D was more likely than R at this point. It’s just incomprehensible that with this spotlight on her she can still fuck up this much. All she has to do is keep herself in control and not act like a selfish asshole and she can’t get through one god damn day. I can’t relate to her at all.

Why are you discussing with her post-separation feelings and dating? That’s irrelevant. If you separate why would you care what she does? Why would you give a fuck? She knows that even with separation and divorce you will be there for her. Again you’re trying to fix her and the situation. She says she will have all this excitement about new relationships and the issues that go with it. Nothing about how sad she will be about your marriage ending. She’s totally obsessed with herself. She really doesn’t care for you.

I will always care about her and I will always have a relationship with her—we will be raising our kids together for the rest of our lives. I absolutely do care about her life post-marriage as it will have a direct affect on my children, who I love dearly.

As for her caring about divorce, that’s on me for not noting it, but she has expressed multiple times how frightened she is of divorce and how devastated she’ll be if I walk away from her—I think that fear has somewhat consumed her honestly.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:25 PM, Saturday, May 14th]

I get the feeling you're too much of a fixer. Normally relationships form by leap of faiths, hoping and observing the other person would act in similar manner, in a common manner. Very simple portrayed. Now you noticed that your wife was never on that same common level as you are. You can't give her a whole new education and upbringing, at some point you have to decide and this decision has to be very pragmatic, whether you want a new relationship with this person or not. But you seem to be more the kind of guy who wants to make it fit, instead of making the decision, you can accept this person and be with her in good faith, you want to mold her so that you can trust her to be with her. You can do this with your children, it's called raising and giving them values. I'm afraid you can't do this with a grown partner.

I get the feeling you're too much of a fixer. Normally relationships form by leap of faiths, hoping and observing the other person would act in similar manner, in a common manner. Very simple portrayed. Now you noticed that your wife was never on that same common level as you are. You can't give her a whole new education and upbringing, at some point you have to decide and this decision has to be very pragmatic, whether you want a new relationship with this person or not. But you seem to be more the kind of guy who wants to make it fit, instead of making the decision, you can accept this person and be with her in good faith, you want to mold her so that you can trust her to be with her. You can do this with your children, it's called raising and giving them values. I'm afraid you can't do this with a grown partner.

This seems unfair to me. I don’t want an entirely new person, I just want her to be aware of her constantly selfish, horrible behavior and demonstrate she can correct it.

Yeah I get you, but I believe those are traits you cultivate throughout your upbringing stretching to your adulthood to when you form and confirm values yourself. What you are going through is that you want to teach her those things, let's say you succeed and in a few weeks or a month she tells you that she got it and understands now. Would that solve your issues, could you go into a new relationship with her in good faith that everything is now okay or would you still have doubts that she just pretended to have you continue with her. As you said and how she realized it herself, she was always this way, do you believe your situation and your push will change her fundamentally in that short time? What I mean is, you're doing a herculean job and the outcome is written in the stars. Seeing your desperate commitment I'm not certain it's even with what she's bringing with. As I said, you seem to want to mold her into something she might never be or could be. Question is, can you let go at a certain point?

[This message edited by bob7777 at 1:50 PM, Saturday, May 14th]