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My wife doesn't know how to approach my feelings with them as she thinks they'll get defensive. She's convinced her father will say: "You're a grown woman and the mistakes are yours, not mine--I was just doing what I felt was in your best interest at the time." And her mother will say, "I was supporting you at every turn and you were my only priority so I regret nothing I said or did."

If this is what happens, you should expect to never have a relationship with them again. They wouldn't deserve it. They can visit in your town and she can accommodate them with a hotel. Expecting anything else from you would be selfish.

I would also think if your wife's approach is to be a coward and not stand up to them and tell them the whole gory truth of all of her lies and ulterior motives with the expectation that they also accept their mistakes and take the lead on repairing their relationship with you, it will greatly hinder your chance of reconciliation. She has to put fixing her marriage first and do whatever that takes. I do understand you are giving her time to develop some tools to do this but having minimal emotional intelligence should not be an excuse for not dealing with it or not dealing with it correctly. She needs to make herself uncomfortable to help you heal.

I remember that post from the Pick up artist. It’s shocking especially for a WW to read now understanding that the person they had essentially entrusted their life, marriage and family to was really only after their physical attributes and nothing more.

What was your wife’s reaction to reading it?

When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage.

You know what, this conversation by the Wayward is a signal that they are open to more without directly saying it. Might not be fully conscious decision but that's what it is. You just don't go down that path with someone you're attracted to otherwise.

What was your wife’s reaction to reading it?

Her texts:

"I’m 2 paragraphs into what you sent me and this is [AP]."

"OMG that was crazy…But he’s right. These women chose to do it. I chose to do it."

"I’d say I’m stupid and I am but holt shit. Everything was on point that he said."

"I feel naive, stupid, and the hook of a safe compliment but never complimented me again. And yes! I thought about the laundry too."

The last text is a reference to a point when AP told her he had to run home to do some laundry and it indirectly turned her on to think he did his own laundry as she does ours (of note, I do ALL the cooking, and I’m good at it, so I don’t think it’s a bad trade for her). My immediate thought is that there is no way he was doing the laundry anyway as he was working two jobs and his wife was home/in school, so it was most certainly a lie in response to her previously telling him how much she hates doing laundry.

Side note: it’s incredible writing about this as it’s objectively stupid nonsense that I am overwhelming embarrassed is a part of my life right now.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 9:14 PM, Wednesday, May 18th]

And as you know, my wife isn't very good at navigating such a conflicting conversation, so she feels unprepared to embark on it yet

So don’t make it a conversation. She should write a letter. No emails going back and forth, an actual pen and paper, lick a stamp and go down to the post office letter. Something that’s written, revisited and revised over several days.

As to your in-laws, an apology that acknowledges the damage done to you, your marriage and even your wife should be the price of admission to even be in your presence again much less in your home. You’re putting yourself through a painful and gut wrenching process just to see if you can rebuild a relationship with a woman you planned to grow old with. If they think they’re owed a welcome back without stepping up then let them wonder why good old Doc no longer wants to be under the same roof as them.

After the jog my wife gleefully reported back to her mom that AP ran four miles to see her and her mom excitedly replied back: "Wow, he must really like you!" The exchange was shocking to see because it was like two 17 year old girls chatting about a cute boy, not a 70-year old mom talking to her 37-year old daughter, who was married with two kids and about to light her life on fire

And like you said, it just got worse from there. These in-laws will NEVER have your back. Should there EVER come a point where it’s "support the daughter doing evil, or support the son-in-law doing right", do you for a moment doubt which way they’d go? Why you are so concerned about restoring your relationship with them is infinitely beyond me. Short of them coming groveling to me, begging for forgiveness, I’d not even talk to them again. Then again, there’s no way I could so readily look past what your WW did, so there’s that….

Then again, there’s no way I could so readily look past what your WW did, so there’s that….

Several people have written that in this thread. I’m just not sure what it even means. Does that mean you’d just walk out today—say screw it to the only woman you’ve ever loved, a 17~ year relationship with two wonderful children?

I feel like that’s certainly an outcome, but if there’s any shot at R, it requires me to stay here in this moment and sort through everything. I have to do that now—I can’t delay it or put it on hold.

Truthfully, if I posted all the texts between my wife and her mom from Dec. - Feb., I don’t think one of you would sanction me even attempting R. They’re so unfathomably horrible—and half of the mom’s texts are good/logical, but all of my wife’s are vicious and cruel toward me; humiliating me in twisted ways.

I just keep trying to take one thing at a time, but every day is hard.

Several people have written that in this thread. I’m just not sure what it even means. Does that mean you’d just walk out today—say screw it to the only woman you’ve ever loved, a 17~ year relationship with two wonderful children?

Pretty much, yes. The level of cruelty and despicable behavior would lead almost anyone to immediately walk away. This was beyond cheating- this was a vile and intentional destruction of you as a man and a husband. And she sealed the deal of the destruction with her continued obtuse behavior after you've agreed to try r.

But everyone has their own path to walk and if you feel you want to try, everyone here will help you with that. But everyone will also continue to point out when you've put the cart before the horse, like with worrying about welcoming your amoral inlaws back in your life. That shouldn't even be on your radar as they are not worthy of that opportunity right now. And that's your wife's problem to solve. Who cares what they do or think.

Most people do not share your views on divorce though. So clearly no matter what your wife does, you're going to want to try given your views on divorce. This does make it easier for her to avoid the work because you are so very focused on r even when she hasn't given you much reason to be.

Dr, I’ve seen that post before. My experiences is that guy was writing self-flagellating bullshit. An affair is much more simple - two people who are open to cheating send each other signals for the own selfish reasons and end up cheating.

I have been reading your thread since the beginning and have a lot of admirastion for the calm and thoughtful manner you have conducted yourself.

The relevations about your MIL are shocking and leads me to think that perhaps she is a WW herself. Which would explain why your FIL expects you to forgive his daughter. You need to call your MIL and tell her how disgusted and disappointed you are with her.

Several people have written that in this thread. I’m just not sure what it even means. Does that mean you’d just walk out today—say screw it to the only woman you’ve ever loved, a 17~ year relationship with two wonderful children?

Relationships change, this one certainly did. Children will survive divorces and if they have one responsible parent they will still thrive. But I know whatever decision you take it will be thoughtful and well reasoned. Wishing you the best.

[This message edited by masti at 12:44 AM, Thursday, May 19th]

You know what, this conversation by the Wayward is a signal that they are open to more without directly saying it. Might not be fully conscious decision but that's what it is. You just don't go down that path with someone you're attracted to otherwise.

I dug in with her on this, asking her to explain why she badmouthed me to AP. Lots of BS at first, but I pointed out how little sense it made—she was already physically and emotionally available to him, so what was she adding.

She pointed out that knocking my sexual abilities was a way to praise and validate him in bed. Again, not what I was asking—I was asking about the other badmouthing of my as a needy husband who didn’t do his own laundry, etc.

Upon further pressing, she ultimately admitted that early on in the affair she wanted to make it known to him that she was open to leaving me for him—she was seemingly frustrated that he wasn’t open to leaving his wife.

I asked how she would have felt if he was open to leaving his wife—she said she would have been receptive to that early on potentially, so "happy," but later on she wouldn’t have cared because she no longer felt they were compatible.

I asked her how I should feel now that she’s firmly established I was her plan B? She said: "Like shit. Like you should divorce me. Like you should walk away."

I told her that’s exactly how it made me feel.

That seemed like a good point to end the conversation.

Upon further pressing, she ultimately admitted that early on in the affair she wanted to make it known to him that she was open to leaving me for him—she was seemingly frustrated that he wasn’t open to leaving his wife.

So she now admits it was an exit affair. You have to question why she wants back in the marriage again.
Also how long did they know each other? I thought it was only a few months. Would a person in a 17 year old relationship leave after meeting someone for a few months. And the place to meet was PTA in school - that in itself brings doubts on the 'good mother' image. So you probably didn't know but you were in a broken marriage for a long time. Go back to when the loss of affection started and it will give you an idea of the whole time when this relationship broke.

Several people have written that in this thread. I’m just not sure what it even means. Does that mean you’d just walk out today—say screw it to the only woman you’ve ever loved, a 17~ year relationship with two wonderful children?

Take what you need discard the rest. There are those with which an A is always a dealbreaker and that the only answer is D. You may end up being one of those. You may not. Keep that in mind we all see your story throw our scarred past.

Totally missed the post about her family's behaviour during the affair.

From my reading, no one in her family was directly supportive of the A while it was on going. Quite the opposite they were telling her it was wrong and were discouraging it. Their views into your marriage were being distorted by your wife who in a way was addicted to her affair and was using any lie she could think of to assage their recriminations. My read is they were hoping that she would come to her senses or tire of this on her own.

I'm not sure how much of that is you sanitizing while paraphrasing, but I wouldn't hold it against them. When push comes to shove waywards family, no matter how much they disagree with their choices, tend to support the waywards in the aftermath. The reaction to divorce is also in line. She's their daughter first. You're their daughters husband. They know she F'd up and if life was fair pay for that in a divorce. My eldest sister was a WS. Her husband didn't deserve what she did to him. I would have traded her for him in the divorce if I could, but families just don't work that way. You're stuck with them. You don't have to agree with them, but you can't just discard them in preference to their wounded spouse regardless if that is what they deserve.

It wouldn't be surprising if some of your wayward's brokenness is due to her FOMO. The grandchildren thing suggests a bit of emotional stunting or disconnect within her family. Mom being the best friend is also a hinderence to your ww being a healthy adult. It's hard to teach boundaries and be a BFF. BTW My ex-MIL was my ex's bFF. Shudder. Maybe some extreme detachment from the father? Or just plain non-presence. Lil bit of overvaluing material wealth and gauging success through that lens. With her sisters issues your wife had to have held the golden child role. While some of this leads to her entitlement it also leads to a level of resentment because of the redirection of parental attention and effort to fix her sister's issues. That should be something that she pokes at in IC.

[This message edited by grubs at 1:23 AM, Thursday, May 19th]

The relevations about your MIL are shocking and leads me to think that perhaps she is a WW herself. Which would explain why your FIL expects you to forgive his daughter. You need to call your MIL and tell her how disgusted and disappointed you are with her.

I don’t think my MIL had an affair—nor my wife a previous affair. I think those things would have absolutely come up in the conversations they were having. I do think it’s very possible my FIL has had affairs. Also of note, my SIL discussed having an affair with a married man as a teenager in her texts (as firsthand experience to my wife of it being a horrible decision to have an affair).

As for calling my MIL, I don’t have the emotional capacity to deal with that in the near future.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:06 AM, Thursday, May 19th]

So she now admits it was an exit affair. You have to question why she wants back in the marriage again.

Also how long did they know each other? I thought it was only a few months. Would a person in a 17 year old relationship leave after meeting someone for a few months. And the place to meet was PTA in school - that in itself brings doubts on the 'good mother' image. So you probably didn't know but you were in a broken marriage for a long time. Go back to when the loss of affection started and it will give you an idea of the whole time when this relationship broke.

So we acknowledged it began as an exit affair based on various other factors, but it was never explicitly stated by her so bluntly until tonight. It’s not exactly a revelation, but it’s one of those things that feels like one because it’s more direct than before.

They met in August and began working together. The first direct text was Oct.; the first time pushing to flirty/friendship roles was in Nov. first kiss on Dec, first fuck in Jan. A couple of weeks after the kiss.

As for our broken marriage, it’s all relative. Her view is that her "depression" began at start of pandemic and her distance from me grew from there. Our sexual relationship has been fucked the entire time though.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:19 AM, Thursday, May 19th]

I asked how she would have felt if he was open to leaving his wife—she said she would have been receptive to that early on potentially, so "happy," but later on she wouldn’t have cared because she no longer felt they were compatible.

I asked her how I should feel now that she’s firmly established I was her plan B? She said: "Like shit. Like you should divorce me. Like you should walk away."

I thought it was established a while back that she considered this was an exit affair at one point. To be an exit affair signalling as much shouldn't be a surprise. She also stated that before the end she started to see him for who is was. Being an exit affair, you didn't even qualify as a plan b at that point. I'd bet at the end of the A you were. I'm not sure that is how she sees you now. This conversation seems at least to be authentic and honest from her which is what she needs to do and for what you've been asking. Doing what is right regardless of the outcome. Even though it hurts her chances to get what she wants.

Truthfully D is the easier path for all involved. If that's the route you decide it's in your rights to do so, but so far it doesn't seem like that's what you want. She's still there and hasn't taken the easy road out either. It's up to the two of you to decide whether to keep trying. Or not.

[This message edited by grubs at 1:25 AM, Thursday, May 19th]

Truthfully D is the easier path for all involved. If that's the route you decide it's in your rights to do so, but so far it doesn't seem like that's what you want. She's still there and hasn't taken the easy road out either. It's up to the two of you to decide whether to keep trying. Or not.

D seems horrible, but I suspect you’re right that it’s easier. I texted with OBS yesterday and I was astonished of her clarity. She was no longer even interested in the events of the affair—she has emotionally moved on from the AP. She’s focused on herself and her children and seems to have a very healthy outlook on life right now. She decided she can’t get over what AP did, so there’s no reason to waste a minute more thinking about it.

For me, it seems so much more complicated. I spent so long loving my wife with every fiber of my being—she truly was my life partner and I never considered a world where we didn’t grow old together. The idea that I would throw that away over this feels immature to me.

The bigger question is whether she can ever really be my life partner—can she ever even be a safe partner for me? If not, this is all a waste of my time. But how do I determine it? It’s been two months and we’ve had good days and bad days, but I don’t feel any closer to an answer.

And to her credit, she is still standing here. She’s consoling me one second and then taking the receiving end of my relentless interrogations the next. She’s been completely available to me to help me heal, both emotionally and sexually.

Why?

Why would someone who was willing to throw away her marriage for a POS she knew for four months now put herself through this if she didn’t care about me? Or is this just some self-imposed punishment on herself to deal with her guilt? How do I know if it’s love or penance?

And you’re right that I don’t "want" divorce. I am so strongly opposed to divorce that I’m worried what me filing for divorce will do to my morality. I feel like a dark descent awaits me on the other end of that road, filled with Tinder hookups and disregard for my moral structure and integrity. In walking away from her I fear I could be walking away from myself.

And I get it—I see the bright side as well. Maybe I find a woman who loves and respects me and we raise my children along with possibly her children and it’s a great, non-toxic life. I can see that. I just need to be significantly more sure that’s the right decision for me than I feel right now. My gut still tells me that my best chance at happiness is with a reformed version of my wife…if that’s even an option.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:50 AM, Thursday, May 19th]

Relationships change, this one certainly did. Children will survive divorces and if they have one responsible parent they will still thrive. But I know whatever decision you take it will be thoughtful and well reasoned. Wishing you the best.

Thank you for the kind words.

I texted with OBS yesterday and I was astonished of her clarity. She was no longer even interested in the events of the affair—she has emotionally moved on from the AP.

If I remember correctly this wasn't APs first go round. It makes it easier for OBS to move on knowing she gave it a go. You have to at least try. I get that. I know this evenings conversation was painful for you. But this was the correct response from her. You should reinforce that because she needs to continue to be this honest.

You ask "why". No one held a gun to her head. She did what she did because she wanted to. All the bad mouthing is a lot of pent up resentment because you have a strong personality. People don’t usually start marriage out with resentment. Something began in the early part of your marriage where she felt she had to keep quiet. Please understand this is not on you. It just means she felt like she was never heard. She felt she had to cater to you. None of that was done Consciously. It was just how her subconscious read you. People routinely put their needs second to keep their partners invested. In her case resentment went underground and eroded, in silence, your marriage. The AP looked like a good prospect to get her out of an unhappy life. The reality is she got seduced by an expert. If you two can’t figure out how to make sure you openly appreciate each other the marriage will continue to wobble.