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You tried to reconcile for 12 years post-DDay and then divorced? Were you both in therapy the entire time? No progress in improving your relationship?

Ah, you want me to predict your future.

There is no external roadmap, DrS.

To answer your questions - we were in therapy several different times, both individual and MC. I thought we had made progress…but he was very good at living a completely double life. Hindsight is always 20/20…I can see many places where I was just a fool. I can also see many places where he was just really good at deception. But the biggest contributing factor to all of those years was two-fold: I was afraid to divorce (also known as, change) and I was afraid to go into that darkness.

I can also now tell you with even greater hindsight - none of this was ever actually about my marriage or his cheating. This ALL was a process of coming home to myself. I’m just blessed that I was thrown into the process because I likely would have never made the journey otherwise.

I know this is both heavy and unimaginable on the front end…but if/when you get this part, it changes your focus.

Otherwise, you only end up with just trying to save a marriage (Really? That’s your life’s purpose now?) - or, on the other end of that stick, a bunch of tinder hookups.

I need to fall in love with her again.

Let me re-phrase the statement above for you:

"She needs to earn my love back, before I fall in love with her again."

The onus is on the wayward to prove commitment to the betrayed at first. That they are willing to move mountains to show the BS that they are in for the long haul, and are willing to put in the effort to try and rebuild as much as they can.

Then the onus lies on the BS to get to a point where they can accept the efforts and help the WS build.

At what point does the BS start help building with the WS? Well, that is a rhetorical/philosophical question, like 'how long is a length of string'? If the conditions are right, your gut will tell you.

This is possibly why I keep thinking that you are leaning towards R in stead of keeping a neutral stance. You posts of the future seem to have your WW in it still, instead of an ambivalent tone.

You have great self-awareness, and that will serve you well on this hellish journey, but that can also lead to self-doubt, as you may overthink things (e.g. the Tinder thing). Balance it your thoughts out by trying to look at it from afar/arms-length/objectively.

As this site only allows threads of up to 50 pages, it might be worth considering posting a new thread in perhaps the General section, where there is a great group of ex-waywards around that could help give you some insight, or you can post some of your questions in the I Can Relate section. You could get better rounded advice instead of only from BS.

If you feel more comfortable posting in JFO, please do so.

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 3:08 AM, Monday, May 23rd]

And if I can’t forgive her, the affair will haunt me forever. I can’t move to R until I can understand more.

One thing I have surmised, after posting here for 5 years, is that for me, I could forgive a partner who worked hard for years, perhaps even decades, to fix themselves, help me heal and really persevered to build something new. I could forgive the new them, the one who now had empathy for how they treated me and hurt me and had compassion for when I triggered.

But I could not, and they would understand this and agree with me if they truly were All In with me, forgive the act. I don’t think I would ever forgive the actual choice they made as it was truly heinous. For me I would hope they would stand by me some point down the road and agree it was unforgivable even if I forgave that person who they were now. And for me and hopefully them, that would be enough.

As this site only allows threads of up to 50 pages, it might be worth considering posting a new thread in perhaps the General section, where there is a great group of ex-waywards around that could help give you some insight, or you can post some of your questions in the I Can Relate section. You could get better rounded advice instead of only from BS.

If you feel more comfortable posting in JFO, please do so.

I can move the new thread to general—it doesn’t matter much to me what forum it’s in. I don’t really have any significant updates to do it at this moment though—I’m just not ready to move on from the pain of the affair without understanding it better. I can’t relate to the person who did this to me, so how can I R without understanding? I need more.

My wife wrote me a lovely note early this morning in response to all my how and why questions—essentially telling me it terrifies her to think she was falling out of love with me. We had our weekend together celebrating her birthday—I caught a cold, so it’s been rough (I slept in my daughter’s room last night). The weekend was fun though: a tremendous amount of sex and bonding.

I’ll post her note in full below:

It’s 5:20, you are asleep (I hope) in [daughter’s] room. I read this fascinating post on the forum titled "Things I had to accept."

It’s very accurate. It talks about how the WW spouse needs to learn to accept that they destroyed the marriage. The person that you once knew as a spouse is completely different. The person who chose to have an affair is truly an unsafe partner. I have to learn to accept who I was and learn to be better. Learning to live with the consequences of my actions and learning to accept that being alone might be part of them.

You asked me how. How I could have an affair. How I could bad mouth. Something I have been terrified to discuss is the potential of falling out of love with you. Writing these words seem surreal. Because at the end of the day I have always thought of you as my best friend, confidante, but people don’t do those horrible acts to the ones we love.
I have truly been petrified holding onto a marriage that I chose to walk away from in fear of the outcome.

You asked me if I feel like I love you now or how can I love you now. I feel more connected to you than I ever have before. All these talks remind me of the talk we had in college magnified by 100. During college it was those talks that gave me this feeling of comfort and this feeling I wanted to be with you. You opened up to me that night and you have been opening up with me every night post affair. In those early days following the affair I felt free having no secrets between us. That’s what our relationship should have been.

I built an unhealthy resentment for you but it wasn’t fair to you. I never communicated my needs or emotions. You are this beautiful human being, filled with so much love and emotion. You’re sexy, smart, and a perfectionist.

In January I said perfectionist was a trait that annoyed me because I felt criticized for not living up to your standards. But being a perfectionist is truly making yourself a better person and wanting to strive for the best in life. [BH], I don’t know what the next 6 month, year, 2 years will bring. But these last 9 weeks have been a gift. Being here and having the ability to hold you, hug you, kiss you, make love to you has meant the absolute world. I love you so much ❤️

One thing I have surmised, after posting here for 5 years, is that for me, I could forgive a partner who worked hard for years, perhaps even decades, to fix themselves, help me heal and really persevered to build something new. I could forgive the new them, the one who now had empathy for how they treated me and hurt me and had compassion for when I triggered.

But I could not, and they would understand this and agree with me if they truly were All In with me, forgive the act. I don’t think I would ever forgive the actual choice they made as it was truly heinous. For me I would hope they would stand by me some point down the road and agree it was unforgivable even if I forgave that person who they were now. And for me and hopefully them, that would be enough.

Perhaps semantics, but I feel like I need to forgive the person, not the act. The things she did to me—viciously and vindictively—are beyond my ability to relate to. Who is the person who can do that? If I can’t answer that question, how can I ever expect not to repeat this hell?

And then I widen out beyond what she did to me—just from a moral perspective—she set out to destroy two families. That’s really heavy. To not care about marriage, children; just be consumed with selfishness. Who is that person? What is the path to redemption for her? I can’t relate to having no moral compass, so I can’t imagine the path to finding one.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:21 PM, Monday, May 23rd]

I feel like I need to forgive the person, not the act.

Ok I see we are on the same page and you’ve thought this through. Thanks for responding.

There is darkness in all of us, DrS. But that is also where authenticity is to be found. It’s the aspect of ourselves that many of us spend a lifetime trying to avoid…but it’s also the place where we will only ever be able to find and know the whole of ourselves. It’s what we are truly looking for as we use fillers (relationships, jobs, etc) in an attempt to fill the emptiness we feel. Whether you divorce or not, don’t be afraid to go into the darkness. The only thing that waits there is you.

Thanks for that, truth. IMO, it bears repeating, so I'm repeating it.

The one thing you didn’t comment on is how your WW feels when those texts are put in front of her. While the physical betrayal is awful in itself, its usuallly the deception and emotional cruelty that sticks with a BS the longest.

Have you had her read those texts out loud to you. How does she feel when she reads them. How does she feel about you? How does she feel about herself.

That is an example of how she can show true remorse to you. Empathy is either there or it’s not. A truly remorseful wayward spouse will feel your pain equally or more than their own.

What words does she use when she thinks about what this did to you.

Steve, you wrote this back in March. We've discussed various texts here and there, but tonight I'm going to go through them all with her for the first time. I feel like it's a major weight I've had sitting on my shoulders this entire time.

Ha I was confused at first. Thought the writing looked familiar.

Good luck. I hope it goes well and she expresses more about the pain they caused you than about her own.

Ha I was confused at first. Thought the writing looked familiar. laugh

Good luck. I hope it goes well and she expresses more about the pain they caused you than about her own.

We got through most of them—I still have a cold, so I needed to get to sleep before finishing them.

She was overwhelmed with humiliation for me and in seeming disbelief over how she could be so cruel. She was also horrified at how her mother was so enabling of her immoral actions.

I’m not sure what my takeaway is though. How could someone I love so much be so effortlessly vicious toward me over such a length of time.

It’s so clear how entirely over me and our marriage she was—it’s equally clear how dedicated she is now to saving it. In her mind, the person she was during the affair is the anomaly, but I just can’t see it that way. I can’t fathom ever treating her that way, but if I did, I can’t imagine it being entirely inauthentic.

I need her to sort through her selfishness, lack of empathy, entitlement and victimization on a groundbreaking level—because as others have noted, if she leaves this process blaming her actions during the affair on the pandemic, her job, and a lack of validation from me, it will certainly repeat again.

She’s also now seriously considering changing her IC to swap to a psychologist instead of a therapist. Her current IC sessions have been unhelpful with her therapist often providing her with optimism; I.e. my wife will talk about her inappropriate relationship with her mother and the IC will respond: "well, at least it’s good she have a close relationship with her!"

She has a late appointment with the psychologist on Thursday, so we’ll see how it goes. I see my IC tomorrow—though I’m also wondering if I’d be better off seeking out a psychologist to help.

In her mind, the person she was during the affair is the anomaly, but I just can’t see it that way. I can’t fathom ever treating her that way, but if I did, I can’t imagine it being entirely inauthentic.

I need her to sort through her selfishness, lack of empathy, entitlement and victimization on a groundbreaking level—because as others have noted, if she leaves this process blaming her actions during the affair on the pandemic, her job, and a lack of validation from me, it will certainly repeat again.

It’s a long process. This was a start. She earns a place back in your heart by consistently over time showing you empathy for the pain this caused and figuratively standing beside you and sharing your anger over who she was and for the AP who assisted her in harming her partner so devastatingly.

Do t let this be the last time that you analyze in depth what she did.

Were these texts just with her family, or with the AP as well?

I think a psychologist might be a good idea for her. The therapist does not seem to be willing to dig too deep.

Were these texts just with her family, or with the AP as well?

She deleted everything from all her devices and her cloud. For the texts with her mom, I made her mom and dad photograph three months of texts to send to us in the days following DDay (under threat of immediate divorce). Her mom was obviously hesitant to share them considering how awful they make both of them look, but my wife convinced her.

The texts with AP are long gone as both of them were deleting them in real-time. My wife claims most of it was sexting related, with each talking about how they couldn’t wait to see each other again to do XYZ.

My wife claims OBS never came up and I came up twice during their time together: once, via text, following the Jan. 4 hotel stay—my wife marveled at how she has to fake most of her orgasms with me unlike night with AP; and second, verbally, when she vented about how needy I was in the minutes preceding her giving him oral sex.

My gut doesn’t believe her, but considering how awful those examples are, it’s hard to imagine it was much worse.

And I plan to keep the pressure on her, but today is her birthday, so I’m going to take a day off and make her a nice dinner so kids can sing to her and have cake. It’s hard though—thus far harder than Mother’s Day—as today marks the three-month anniversary of their second hotel stay (the big, boundary pushing handcuffs and anal sex one). I also have this feeling in my gut that she’d be meeting him in his car today had I not discovered the affair.

I’m going to do my best to push the negativity out of my head today though.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 1:53 PM, Tuesday, May 24th]

Have you confronted the mother and sister?

Doc. This is the thing. Your WW is not one or the other - a wonderful woman who you loved dearly and a woman who had an A and treated you terribly. Instead, she is both of these things.

To move forward, to help her become a better person, and for you to heal, both of you need to accept that from the moment the A started, she was, and will always be, both of these things.

Your goal is R, and you said that to do so eventually you need to forgive her, but not the A. In that case, I think you also need to accept that you will always be married to the lovely wife and the terrible person the cheater all wrapped into one package.

That being said, I think you will needlessly continue to wrap your head around the axle if you continue to try to reconcile the two wives you now know exists. Instead, focus on her current and future actions and her personal changes.

Have you confronted the mother and sister?

No.

My view of her mom is that she's an ignorant, immoral abomination and she should live out every day of the rest of her life with deep shame over her abhorrent behavior...but she won't. She'll justify her words as the words of someone tirelessly defending and standing by her daughter. My wife understands my feelings and agrees with my viewpoint, but is struggling to figure out how to deal with it considering she's still her mother and my wife's words were even worse than her mom's. Seeing how my wife handles her mother is a big point of interest for me moving forward.

You don't mention her father, but I'll tell you that I think he's a pathetic man. He abstained from his role as a father consistently throughout his daughter's life, going dark/silent at all moments of conflict. His solution was to disappear when things got rough in the lives of his family and he carried that behavior into this affair--vanishing at the moment his daughter needed him most. When he learned of the affair on Jan. 5, do you know what he did? He told his wife he was "really, really disappointed in my wife" and poof, he was gone. He stopped talking to his daughter entirely, not wanting to get involved. He only broke his inaction on March 20 when he called my wife to scare the shit out of her by warning her that I was attempting to steal her children away from her and she needed to lawyer up ASAP--it was a phone call that set into motion the near end of our marriage.

My wife carries a tremendous amount of pain for him from throughout her childhood, so her anger for him seems to outweigh mine--the result is I don't think of him much at all anymore.

Lastly, you mentioned her sister. I don't really care about her sister right now. She was a voice of reason to my wife throughout the affair, telling her to end it immediately, etc. My wife was barely talking to her because she didn't like the advise. Her sister could have done far more, but it's hard to hold it against her considering the significant mental issues of her own--she's on various meds and dealing with deep psychological problems, so aiming hatred at her right now feels pointless.

Truthfully though, I am hurt by her lack of empathy for me if only because of all the people in my wife's family, I'd expect more from her sister in that area than anyone. It may be more a reflection of my own feelings toward her--how much I cared about her and how emotionally involved I became in her issues.

That being said, I think you will needlessly continue to wrap your head around the axle if you continue to try to reconcile the two wives you now know exists. Instead, focus on her current and future actions and her personal changes.

I think that's a great point. I'm trying.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 3:41 PM, Tuesday, May 24th]

I think how she chooses to address and handle her mother will make or break you reconciliation attempt. I do not think you should give her ANY guidance. You need to see what she is going to do (not say) and what she is going to prioritize ON HER OWN.

I agree that it doesn't make any sense that she would be so callously horrific and then change her mind and be in love with you weeks later. Only time will tell and you are very accommodating in even considering giving her any time.

Armchair psycho-analyst talk,but here goes. . .

She has Daddy issues. When she was having an A she was rebelling against her archetype of the main male influence in her life.

She regufuses to clear the air with her Dad so later in life she tried to "get back," at the main male influence in her life (you). Her vitriol was meant for her father not you.

Something she should explore with a better trained p_doc.

She was humiliated for you. I don't have to tell you that someone who actually wrote those messages would not feel embarrassed for you. They would be full of remose and ask what they could do to help you understand it better.

It is a prime example of her deflecting blame for your hurt feelings. Sorry, but she is nowhere near remorse or even accepting responsibility. Her words were cruel, spiteful and intended to create humor at your expense. Ask her how it would feel for you to talk to other people about her like that? Ask her if you had written down the things she is insecure about and any terrible secrets she has told you. Then you gave that list to a rekstive she has to interact with on a regulsr basis. Further then they agree with you about all her faults. As long as you are play acting tell her to imagine it was one of her kids. Again, the pointbof this is to get her to understand how badly this has hurt you.

If I were you I would begin to detach and stop being an emotional support to her while she is not doing the same for you. No more lopsidedness. Equals or not?

Look. I am happily reconciled today, but it took years to get here. In hindsight, we both had answers to find, but they always weren't with each other.

I think you need a business trip or an excursion to think through what you really want out of life. No contact with your W for a week. Right now you need a break from your #1 trigger, your W. There is such a thing as A fatigue and burnout.

I will just say that I think a lot of your anger and judgement at her family is anger that you're not directing at your wife. You're very hostile and unrelenting when it comes to them. Somewhat valid, but I feel that you're using them as a way to release anger while forgiving your wife.

Should you be upset with her mom for going along with things? Absolutely! You don't want to address it with her, that's your choice. I personally would have a conversation with her just so she could hear what her words and actions did to me. I wouldn't entertain any excuse she made. Her anger towards her is completely justified, IMO.

As far as her dad, I actually don't think he did anything wrong when he stopped speaking to his daughter. She was destroying her family, breaking her vows, and he didn't want any part of that. While he couldn't take that final step to tell you about her affair, he definitely didn't support her. I don't understand your anger at him.

Same with her sister. She was actively telling your wife that she was wrong in her actions. She may not have told you, but she was advocating for you.

I think you may not have realized that you're contradicting yourself on your anger towards her family. You're mad at her dad for not being there for her, you're mad at her mom for being there for her, and you're mad at her sister because you think her speaking against the affair wasn't enough for you.

I only point that out so you can deal with the fact that you may be misdirecting your anger. It may catch up to you when you least expect it and finally be directed towards your wife.

I think how she chooses to address and handle her mother will make or break you reconciliation attempt. I do not think you should give her ANY guidance. You need to see what she is going to do (not say) and what she is going to prioritize ON HER OWN.

I agree that it doesn't make any sense that she would be so callously horrific and then change her mind and be in love with you weeks later. Only time will tell and you are very accommodating in even considering giving her any time.

I'm not giving her guidance on what to do, just telling her how I feel (both in our personal discussions and in MC). I don't know that I'm expecting one specific response from her though--thus far she's been very distant with her mom. Her mom has constantly been trying to talk with her and even offering to come down to stay with us to help the kids (she's currently oblivious to my hatred for her). My wife has rebuffed her at all points as she wants to work through her eventual response in IC.

I sympathize with her situation though. She participated in developing a horrible relationship with her mother that had no boundaries, then she leaned on her mother as an enabler during the worst period of her life. I can only assume my wife rightfully feels selfish judging her mother when her own actions were far worse. She also knows her mom likely doesn't have many more lucid years left (as I've mentioned, she's in the early stages of dementia and her mother died with Alzheimers).

It's all very sad and I'm angry with my wife for destroying these relationships along with destroying everything else.

Armchair psycho-analyst talk,but here goes. . .

She has Daddy issues. When she was having an A she was rebelling against her archetype of the main male influence in her life.

She regufuses to clear the air with her Dad so later in life she tried to "get back," at the main male influence in her life (you). Her vitriol was meant for her father not you.

Something she should explore with a better trained p_doc.

Yea, it's very obvious that's exactly what's happening. The amount of hate I've seen come out about her father since DDay has really taken me off guard. So often she'll bring him into a conversation that I feel he has absolutely no part of--like she's pointing out how obviously awful he is because of X and I'm just confused at the line she's drawing.

Also interestingly, two things were clear in the texts with her mom:

1. Her mother has deep-seated resentment for her father and was projecting her marriage onto my marriage and her husband onto me. My wife would make up lies about me and her mom would relate back to her personal experience--it was this cycle of emotional stupidity that made me cringe. My wife has always felt bad for her mom because of how she was treated by her father; always siding with her over him. It's in line with her financial infidelity too--her mom never felt like she could spend money because it was "his" money, not hers; so my wife had that resentment in the back of her mind our entire marriage, spending behind my back because she was justified to spend "her" money however she wanted. It all ties back to her taking her mother's anger about her marriage out on our marriage.

2. During the affair, in January, my wife brought up an old memory she had to me. She was 18 and with her then-bf at a subway stop waiting for father to come pick her up--normally her mom would get her, but that night, it was her dad. She was making out with her bf heavily, his hands squeezing her butt, etc., when her father arrived. He lost his shit and grounded her for her public display. My wife told me this story--out of the blue--and I said, well, it seems like you could have chosen to be more respectful knowing your dad would be there at any moment--also, you have no idea what had happened to him that day; perhaps he entered into the situation in a bad mood. She thought my position was crazy. That night she brought the conversation up with her mom (who had no recollection of the story)--my wife wrote this:

"Omg so [BH] and I were just talking about how I was making out with that boy at the subway stop when I was in high school and dad grounded me and [BH] agrees with dad...I'm like he was my boyfriend at the time...and I was 18! I mean cut from the same cloth, like what?! Like he told me that is awful. His hands were maybe on my ass but that's it. I was 18! Again, maybe this is why we have issues. :pondering emoji:"

It's interesting on a few levels. For one, the constant exaggeration to make her point more agreeable--I never said what she did was "awful," I just provided her perspective from her dad. But it's also her desire to make me and her dad out to be the same person--projecting his treatment of her mom onto my treatment of her. But it was all fantasy--she was exaggerating things I did in her mind and then looking to her mother to enable her viewpoint; and her mother was doing it because of all her own resentments toward her husband (and men in general).

I see how fucked up they both are so clearly now and I can't imagine untwisting the fuckery ingrained in her head.

She was humiliated for you. I don't have to tell you that someone who actually wrote those messages would not feel embarrassed for you. They would be full of remose and ask what they could do to help you understand it better.

It is a prime example of her deflecting blame for your hurt feelings. Sorry, but she is nowhere near remorse or even accepting responsibility. Her words were cruel, spiteful and intended to create humor at your expense. Ask her how it would feel for you to talk to other people about her like that? Ask her if you had written down the things she is insecure about and any terrible secrets she has told you. Then you gave that list to a rekstive she has to interact with on a regulsr basis. Further then they agree with you about all her faults. As long as you are play acting tell her to imagine it was one of her kids. Again, the pointbof this is to get her to understand how badly this has hurt you.

If I were you I would begin to detach and stop being an emotional support to her while she is not doing the same for you. No more lopsidedness. Equals or not?

Look. I am happily reconciled today, but it took years to get here. In hindsight, we both had answers to find, but they always weren't with each other.

I think you need a business trip or an excursion to think through what you really want out of life. No contact with your W for a week. Right now you need a break from your #1 trigger, your W. There is such a thing as A fatigue and burnout.

Well, she was trying to help me understand it better, but the answers are really shallow. She thought the marriage with me was over--regardless of if things worked out with AP--and was burning my name down everywhere she could to justify her affair and the view on her when she eventually left me. Now that she so desperately wants to stay with me, she is horribly ashamed for what she did and said and recognizes how humiliating it must be for me (I took that as a good sign of empathy honestly).

And I did ask her how it would feel if I had conversations like that with my father. She laughed--genuinely--because the thought of two people as good-hearted and moral as me and my father having such absurd conversations wasn't based in any reality she could imagine.

As for the time away, I struggle with that. I took the week away from her in early April and ultimately it didn't accomplish much for me--I returned to all the same problems I left. As I've said, I have a high pain tolerance. I'll stand in this fire as long as I can tolerate it--either the fire will die out and I'll R or I'll get to hot and bail. But I'm not really interested in stepping out of the fire for a week only tyo step right back in--I want to get it over with.

That said, she has a four-day business trip coming in less than a month, so that will be a built in break. We're also planning a family vacation in a few weeks--that will be surreal I'm sure.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 7:08 PM, Tuesday, May 24th]

Are you also in IC doc?

If I remember right there was some history of purely on-line contact with single other women by you for a while, perhaps with a fetishistic aspect.

How does that fit within the chronology of what you now know of your wife resenting you and exiting the marriage. Does your wife know the detail of it? Has this been discussed in the joint sessions?

[This message edited by straightup at 6:27 PM, Tuesday, May 24th]