SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

You ask "why". No one held a gun to her head. She did what she did because she wanted to. All the bad mouthing is a lot of pent up resentment because you have a strong personality. People don’t usually start marriage out with resentment. Something began in the early part of your marriage where she felt she had to keep quiet. Please understand this is not on you. It just means she felt like she was never heard. She felt she had to cater to you. None of that was done Consciously. It was just how her subconscious read you. People routinely put their needs second to keep their partners invested. In her case resentment went underground and eroded, in silence, your marriage. The AP looked like a good prospect to get her out of an unhappy life. The reality is she got seduced by an expert. If you two can’t figure out how to make sure you openly appreciate each other the marriage will continue to wobble

I think that’s all spot on.

The idea that I would throw that away over this feels immature to me.

Why do you feel this way? From my perspective, the OBS made a pragmatic decision. Her boundary was broken, and she left. Did she leave because of an emotional decision, possibly not, as she seems to be disinterested in what her ex did, and is moving forward in life. It looks like she divested any emotional baggage she had.

The bigger question is whether she can ever really be my life partner—can she ever even be a safe partner for me? If not, this is all a waste of my time. But how do I determine it? It’s been two months and we’ve had good days and bad days, but I don’t feel any closer to an answer.

Two months from a devastating life event is still quite short in the whole scheme of things. Some people can make a hard decision quickly, whilst others may take more time, but the worst is no decision is made.

Watch for consistent behaviour from your WW to make herself safe for you and your family. Watch what actions she takes to 'right the wrongs', to mend bridges back to you, and cut the links that drove her to make those fateful decisions that destroyed all your lives.

And to her credit, she is still standing here. She’s consoling me one second and then taking the receiving end of my relentless interrogations the next. She’s been completely available to me to help me heal, both emotionally and sexually.

Why?

Why would someone who was willing to throw away her marriage for a POS she knew for four months now put herself through this if she didn’t care about me? Or is this just some self-imposed punishment on herself to deal with her guilt? How do I know if it’s love or penance?

It could also be fear. Fear of having to deal with life on her own. Fear of not finding another mate like you. Fear of a ruined reputation. Fear is like Hope, it can make you white knuckle through things.

And you’re right that I don’t "want" divorce. I am so strongly opposed to divorce that I’m worried what me filing for divorce will do to my morality. I feel like a dark descent awaits me on the other end of that road, filled with Tinder hookups and disregard for my moral structure and integrity. In walking away from her I fear I could be walking away from myself.

Are you against D because of religious/philosophical grounds, or fear that it may release a beast in you? You do realise that the first is a man-made construct, and the second is dependent on your own decision.

In terms of post-D life, it is up to the individual. Like someone who has had a life changing health issue (I know some), where the event either brings out the best or the worst in them. They never return 100% to who they were before the event. I know of one who was a good friend with mild narcissistic tendencies, but after the event, the narcissism came out front and centre. Then another person I know who was quite self-absorbed, became a philanthropist.

So, the decision is yours to make. IMHO, you will not go to the 'dark side', as your posts seem to come from a reasoned and responsible person. Your feeling of responsibility to your children may help keep you on the 'straight and narrow'.

Doc - when you showed your WW the posting by the man who was a serial cheater and preyed upon married women, I assume you did that to show your WW what a POS the AP was, or was it for another reason?

Did you discuss with your WW that it’s quite possible her AP joined the PTA for just this purpose, the PTA being majority married women of course?

Of course it’s not out of the realm of possibility, but a married cop joining the PTA while his wife is not in the PTA…

How does your WW feel about this potential?

Why do you feel this way? From my perspective, the OBS made a pragmatic decision. Her boundary was broken, and she left. Did she leave because of an emotional decision, possibly not, as she seems to be disinterested in what her ex did, and is moving forward in life. It looks like she divested any emotional baggage she had.

I was referring to my wife throwing our 17-year long relationship away for a few month affair, not OBS separating.

It could also be fear. Fear of having to deal with life on her own. Fear of not finding another mate like you. Fear of a ruined reputation. Fear is like Hope, it can make you white knuckle through things.

That’s ultimately a major concern for me—she’s doing this out of fear, not love.

Are you against D because of religious/philosophical grounds, or fear that it may release a beast in you? You do realise that the first is a man-made construct, and the second is dependent on your own decision.

I’m against D because I believe philosophically it is wrong, unless there are quite literally irreconcilable differences (violence, etc.). I think marriage is and should be a bond for life that only fortifies with the decision to have children together. If it’s not, the only thing keeping couples together is a daily decision—and that’s not good enough from a societal perspective. Children suffer from divorce—objectively. It needs to be an unwavering goal from a married couple to give everything to ensure they remain together.

And I feel it’s also in their best interest. By being tied to someone else, you’re allowed to risk things in a relationship that you couldn’t without marriage. It’s like in a new relationship; if you’re with someone who can leave anytime, it’s harder to be honest with them—it’s harder to have conflict. You’ll rug-sweep it all just to keep the waters calm. If instead you know you can tell him/her anything you want and they’re stuck with you, communication can open—hell, I suspect that’s partially why I was always so honest and transparent with my wife.

If I file for divorce, I’ll (rightfully) feel that I failed my children. It may happen anyway, but it’s not something that I’m frivolously considering; it’s a big deal.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 3:55 PM, Thursday, May 19th]

So we acknowledged it began as an exit affair based on various other factors, but it was never explicitly stated by her so bluntly until tonight. It’s not exactly a revelation, but it’s one of those things that feels like one because it’s more direct than before.

I pushed further on this. My wife finally admitted it was always an exit affair; from day 1 until the day I found out. Everything she did—including making her body available to him however he wanted her—was designed to convince him to leave his wife. Even with the red flags she saw in him, she was unwavering—he was her ticket out of an unhappy marriage. The affair would have gone on until she succeeded and he left his wife, so she could leave me; he got bored of her and called it off; or she found a new AP more willing to take her (though she denies the last option claiming she doesn’t know if she could have had a second affair—she says she understands the logic, but doesn’t recall feeling that was an option).

Bottom line though, her best-case scenario could have been fucking him behind my back for a year or so before he finally caved, at which point she’d have gone to me and told me she was leaving me for him. I’d have been deaf, dumb and blind all that time—invalidated so much of my life—before she finally monkey branched away. And that was if things worked out well for her.

When I found out, her plan blew up. So of course, she went to him and told him she thought I would be divorcing her. She was hoping for compassion, hoping he’d tell her he’d leave his wife for her. But inside she knew that wasn’t coming. Even worse, he couldn’t have cared less—zero compassion; she was on her own.

In a matter of 24-hours she went from risking it all to win his heart and be with him to feeling only anger for him.

So she falls back on me. How could it not be fear of being alone keeping her here now? She claims she doesn’t fear being alone, only losing me. She claims she’s terrified at the thought of me not being her last kiss on her death bed (I of course noted that she should think of all the guys she could kiss between now and then).

So tell me—and maybe this is a question for a cheater—is it even possible that she’s sitting here with me now out of love? All the evidence suggests she’s just a wounded animal looking for shelter.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:39 PM, Thursday, May 19th]

Doc - when you showed your WW the posting by the man who was a serial cheater and preyed upon married women, I assume you did that to show your WW what a POS the AP was, or was it for another reason?

Did you discuss with your WW that it’s quite possible her AP joined the PTA for just this purpose, the PTA being majority married women of course?

Of course it’s not out of the realm of possibility, but a married cop joining the PTA while his wife is not in the PTA…

How does your WW feel about this potential?

AP’s wife was on the PTA as well—it’s just that the events committee for the PTA was three people, including my wife and AP, so they’d work together all the time to plan events. They’d then have larger functions where my wife would be with OBS—the only significant connection they made was when OBS tried to bond with my wife out of suspicion and my wife, consistent to her actions throughout the affair, spent the time badmouthing me to OBS (which was obviously a giant red flag to her suspicions).

My wife says she feels used, stupid and manipulated by AP. Even during the affair she suspected he was working other women, so that hasn’t changed.

And honestly, I just shared it with her because I thought it was an uncanny similarity to her AP—I really didn’t have a motive beyond an interesting curiosity.

I hope you can salvage your marriage. The honesty she is using is some of the most stark I have read. She is letting you into her thoughts more than most of us do. You have been together a long time and it sounds like this is the first time she has ever opened up to you.

One suggestion….don’t put your needs second. You need some way to diffuse the anxiety, anger and plain old fear that keeps your adrenaline high. That is not good for you. It can be toxic if you don’t find a way to lessen the stress. Long term stress breaks down your body.

Cooley2Here is right. This is the first time she's being totally honest with you. Probably with anyone. While the truth is harsh and hard to process, that's a major step towards being a safe partner. I personally didn't think she had it in her. Unfortunately that may have come too late to save the marriage. The balls in your court now and I wish you peace which every way you decide.

So tell me—and maybe this is a question for a cheater—is it even possible that she’s sitting here with me now out of love? All the evidence suggests she’s just a wounded animal looking for shelter.

You can't know that. It's a definitive possibility. I suspect even she doesn't know that at this point. The only way to find out is time and watching her actions.

Her bonding is whacked. Almost stuck in Jr. High mode. Stuck at surface level even with her family. It has been that way your entire marriage. This can be fixed if she puts the time and effort into it. The question is do you want to, or even can you, take the time and risk to find out.

If you want the wayward perspective there's a thread in the I can relate forum for BS questions for WS. There's a few WW that post there regularly. I'm not sure we've had a M survive a full blown exit affair to the end disclosure though, but I'd suggest reaching posting there to find out for sure.

Now is the time to put yourself, your needs, and your wants first. BS tend towards being selfless. That's what our WS take advantage of. That can't happen post DDay. You need to put yourself first to heal from the carnage inflicted on you. If you keep that in mind I beleive whatever decision you make, whether now, six months from now, or years from now, will be the correct one.

[This message edited by grubs at 3:03 PM, Thursday, May 19th]

I love your perspective on marriage written above with one significant exception:

I do not agree that if you choose D you will have failed your children. Your WW failed them. You did not have an A. You are giving R a chance. You are not reacting impulsively. If D happens in your case it is for a very valid reason, not frivolous or selfish.

And I implore you to accept the idea that while D may be a net negative for kids, it does not have to be negative for your kids. Two loving parents finding a healthy way to co-parent can and does happen. It may not be the majority but it's not like it's exactly rare either. Your kids will survive if you choose D, just as millions of others have.

Cooley2Here is right. This is the first time she's being totally honest with you. Probably with anyone. While the truth is harsh and hard to process, that's a major step towards being a safe partner. I personally didn't think she had it in her.

The truth is a winding rabbit hole though. She acknowledges that she is entirely co-dependent with me. During the affair, she didn't leave me because she had no confidence AP would leave his wife and she didn't want to be alone--she relies on me for too much that she doesn't know how to handle. How would she find her own place to live? And once she did, how would she fix the toilet when it breaks? She felt like she had no choice but to stay with me until she identified someone else who could take care of her.

The irony of course is she spent all her time complaining about how overburdened her responsibilities were--completely oblivious to the fact of not only how much I did, but she was entirely reliant on me doing those things for her.

That's why when AP was so unsympathetic after D-Day, she didn't feel relief for an out to her marriage, she felt terrified that she was going to be off on her own without anyone (specifically a man) by her side to support and comfort her.

But in the weeks following D-Day, she claims to have fallen in love with me. She claims to now see a side of me she never saw before--she loves me and loves how much I love her and wants nothing more than to prove she can change for me.

That's a great story--and it just might be true. But here's what we know is true: she hated my guts a few months ago and she has a fear of being alone--those are facts. What MIGHT be true is that she fell in love with me a few weeks ago. And like everything else since D-Day, it's a convenient revelation that directly supports her best interest.

So as you suggest, I now need to observe and see if she really loves me. The problem is I don't trust myself to identify it. I believed with all my heart she loved me dearly for all those years, only seeing now she very literally did not. But ok, now my senses are more tuned to her potential deception, so I can trust my gut.

FWIW, it really does *feel* like she is all in and loves me. I'm just having a hard time believing it.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 5:22 PM, Thursday, May 19th]

is it even possible that she’s sitting here with me now out of love? All the evidence suggests she’s just a wounded animal looking for shelter.

IMO, all the evidence is consistent with loving you and with using you, and it's probably a mixture.

To R, you MUST invest your time and energy with no assurance of succeeding in R. You need to give your WS multiple opportunities to step up or mess up, and you have to make the decision to R again and again.

It's best if you give up trying to control the outcome. If R looks possible and desirable, your life together will test you both again and again. Personally, I did my best to maximize the testing so as to maximize my W's opportunities to mess up. Let the results of the tests drive your decisions. Make a 'good solution' your goal - whether that good solution is D, R, or gathering more info.

I'm just having a hard time believing it.

You shouldn't right no, but you shouldn't totally discount the possibility.

What MIGHT be true is that she fell in love with me a few weeks ago. And like everything else since D-Day, it's a convenient revelation that directly supports her best interest.

Her other admissions in these latest conversations were decidedly not in her best interests. It may be that she's just trying to keep her shelter. It may be more. If that is the case, you'll find out soon enough.

But in the weeks following D-Day, she claims to have fallen in love with me. She claims to now see a side of me she never saw before--she loves me and loves how much I love her and wants nothing more than to prove she can change for me.

It's at least as possible as falling in love with the seedy serial AP like she claims. Truthfully, I'm not sure she knows what love really is. What I'm not hearing from you is being done with your M. There's nothing wrong with continuing on until you are done or she proves that she can or can not change.

Her other admissions in these latest conversations were decidedly not in her best interests.

So she has provided a few facts throughout that are clearly not in her best interest—the painful, hurtful things that I’d never be able to prove if she didn’t tell me. The best example was sharing with me that she essentially told AP how much better he was in bed than me. To her it was a way to feed his ego as she was trying to demonstrate she was available to leave her husband for him. Hell, it also was almost certainly true considering our absurd sex life most of the marriage and my wife’s deep-seated resentment for me when we’d have sex.

So yes, facts like that mean something to me because it demonstrates a willingness to be transparent.

But I’m still upset that she held off talking about the extent of the exit affair for so long. To her, she felt like it was a bridge too far and if she admitted it, I’d walk. It was identical to how she felt when she first told me about the hotel stays.

So in the back of my mind, it means there are things she thinks are not in her best interest to share. Things I have to pull out of her through relentless pursuit. Both the hotel stays and exit affair stuff took extreme effort on my end to get and in both case she thought I was about to walk out on her and she had nothing to lose.

So how many other extreme things is she masking? How can I ever rest feeling I know all I need to know?

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 5:32 PM, Thursday, May 19th]

I love your perspective on marriage written above with one significant exception:

I do not agree that if you choose D you will have failed your children. Your WW failed them. You did not have an A. You are giving R a chance. You are not reacting impulsively. If D happens in your case it is for a very valid reason, not frivolous or selfish.

See to me, that reads a bit like justification: "It's not my fault your mom's a cheater--sorry, kids!"

No one gets to see a map of his/her life beforehand. I married my wife for better or worse and it turned out a hell of a lot worse than I thought it would when I was putting that ring on her finger 10 years ago. But she hasn't left me--she's seemingly all in to seek my forgiveness and grow old with me still. The choice is on me. I can forgive her precisely because it's my commitment to her and my children.

And if I don't, I'd be the one walking away, not her. Of course, virtually no one would judge me for it, including her immoral mother; but I'd always know.

Integrity isn't about how others view me, it's about how I view myself. My moral compass means more to me than perhaps I ever realized. At times I feel like I'm stuck in a Jerry Spring episode with all those around me losing their hearts and minds. I want to be the rock--not so others can laud me for my integrity, but so I can look my children in the eyes with clarity of purpose.

If I'm capable of R, I will R--it's perhaps that simple. But it's not something I'm taking lightly because I also understand that if I'm not capable of R and I force it, the outcome will be worse. I need to be all in on this. And I've had moments where I can see the finish line, but I'm not there yet.

I need to be all in on this.

You can't be all in until you know for sure that she is. The path to discover that is years in the making at best. The best you can do is wake up everyday willing to try and give her the chance. That's all anyone can expect including yourself.

The roller coaster has barely left the station for you. There'll be more bad days than good for quite some time.

[This message edited by grubs at 7:42 PM, Thursday, May 19th]

You see I respect what you’re saying and the position you are Taking. After all, it’s your life, not any of ours. And yes, you are a moral person with a commitment you intend to honor. I get that and don’t for a minute feel it is wrong for you to feel that way.

I’ve thought about this a lot for the 5+ years I’ve been here, so I have the advantage of it not being JUST FOUND OUT in my thinking on the topic. And I feel like I couldn’t handle it the way you are.

No of course if I found myself in your shoes, I might very well find that I’d actually make the same choices as you and not leave a cheating spouse.

But in my years of dwelling on it, I think for me, if my wife had done what yours has, and especially in light of what she admitted about the affair being of the exit type, I’d have to tell her that she broke her vows, not only to love, honor and cherish, but especially her vow to fore sake all others. And because of that, the marriage ended; even if not legally, but morally and effectively the day she consummated her relationship with the POSOM.

Now that said, I would tell her that I still love her. That I hadn’t broken my vows and that in order to continue to live up to them, I would try, as long as she was all in on fixing herself, rebuilding the relationship from scratch and helping me heal, to work on starting and frowning something new.

But one thing I wouldn’t do, was to do that as her husband. Because I no longer was. No to me her actions were an official divorce more than any court order ever would be. She killed the marriage. I did not. It’s been over since she told herself it was ok to cheat.

So If it were me, I’d have to divorce, hopefully on reasonable terms. And then give her an opportunity to build a new relationship with me of some sort at some level with no promises from me.

That’s how she would show me she was ALL IN. If she could go through that, and prove to me that she still wanted to try. That she still wanted to be my one and only from this point forward, without the commitment of marriage holding her down in the hurricane that is the reconciliation process, is the way she would make me feel truly wanted for me and not just as a paycheck and family handyman. That she loved and desired me.

Combine that with fixing herself through hard work with an IC and doing and saying things that are healing to me (which your wife fails at as often as she succeeds), then I’d know that she’d done something far more wild and intimate and stressful and meaningful than she ever had done for any AP there ever was.

And that would mean something to me.

By doing this I can define the level of what I want our relationship to be going forward. Coparent, friends, bf/gf, lovers, monogamous, cohabitating partners or remarried. It would depend on what I saw or felt. Again she’d have to prove herself without promise of commitment.

That’s how I see it working for me under similar circumstances. It’s the only way I think I’d know that she wanted to be with me for me and no one else.

But you are not me and I respect that.

And I’ll leave it at that. You’ve done great and I wish you a path to happiness whatever it looks like.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 8:55 PM, Thursday, May 19th]

I like your effort to R. It's very admirable. Your wife checked at least 3 boxes that would cause many to choose D quickly but you are still hanging in there. I do think she is trying and of course that matters. I hope it works for you.

In your response to my post that a D would be her fault, not yours, you said "that sounds like justification". I love when people take accountability, but something about that statement feels like it might not be healthy. I'm not sure what it is though.

I do think we need to forgive and I very much hope you will forgive her. But sometimes forgiveness is not enough. The spectre of the affair haunts the BS and marriage despite forgiveness. I hope that is not your experience but it is for some others and I do not feel that their eventual D was the BS fault. Not at all. Of course you can hold yourself to a very high standard of forgiveness and it may well be only a positive for you and your family. Just make sure that how you define it is not secretly undermining your life in some potentially hidden way.

I do think we need to forgive and I very much hope you will forgive her. But sometimes forgiveness is not enough. The spectre of the affair haunts the BS and marriage despite forgiveness. I hope that is not your experience but it is for some others and I do not feel that their eventual D was the BS fault. Not at all. Of course you can hold yourself to a very high standard of forgiveness and it may well be only a positive for you and your family. Just make sure that how you define it is not secretly undermining your life in some potentially hidden way.

I appreciate that. I plan to explore this concept deeply in IC (still waiting on the potential therapist to get back to me).

With your WW I don't know if there is a finish line. There is a line where you finally accept what is real.

So how many other extreme things is she masking? How can I ever rest feeling I know all I need to know?

Other than more affairs I don't know, as she is being brutally honest with you about why and how she acted with PTAcop.
But now you are the love of her life, after 10 years of off and on ambivalence and down right hostility to you.
She has a lot to work on and if you let her do it without your guidance, it will not get done.
Using sex as a "tool" is more in her zone than fixing what is broke by changing her habits.

She has a lot to work on and if you let her do it without your guidance, it will not get done.

I do think this is one thing the majority got wrong (though there were two or three of you that diverged from the group think). In my shoes, if I stepped back and let her lead, she would have failed under the pressure.

I'm still often spoon-feeding her until she gets to the answers, and it's frustrating, but I also see her thinking has gradually changed. She's making immeasurably less mistakes and blurting out far less absurdly selfish remarks. I'm seeing more of the compassionate version of her I fell in love with.

And I don't want it to come across the wrong way, but I credit that to my relentlessness. I think in my case I had to stay aggressive. It might not matter in the end, just an observation thus far.