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Doc. I can’t recall you having answered this question before. Why are you able to get over the sexual aspect of your WWs A so easily?

Most men can’t get past this part very well, so I’m wondering what your mindset is about the sex that allows you to move on from it.

What farside said.

So the next time she starts moping around or visibly falls into a shame spiral, I recommend doing nothing. Don't ignore her or antagonize her, but don't prod her into opening up to you, either. Let her wallow in and fully experience her pain. If she wants your comfort and support, then she needs to learn how to ask for it and take the risk that your response may not always be something she wants to hear.

Don't be afraid to call her out whenever she says something manipulative, self-serving, or self-pitying. While you shouldn't be demeaning or unnecessarily combative, you should always be honest and forthright. Don't rely on euphemisms or cushion your words because you're afraid they might land too hard on her fragile ego.

I think that’s good advice and it’s how I’m moving forward. The primary issue is she has no idea what to do first/next, and I feel myself losing love for her every day. I could walk out on the marriage today and I don’t know that I’ve really felt I’d be comfortable doing that until now. I just don’t see the path out of this with her leading and you’re all right that I can’t drag her along.

And frankly, I get why you are reluctant to do so. You know she doesn't pack the gear to take over compressions. You know that you stepping back will likely result in the formal end of your marriage...something which clearly scares you.

You’re spot on. I see the end now. I’m at a point where I feel like I’m less scared of losing her and more scared of the unknown of my potential new life.

I feel like it’s now all on her—I have nothing left to give—and I see how it will play out. We’ll talk less; I’ll be more angry and disappointed in her; and ultimately she’ll fail under the weight of the pressure. I don’t think I’ll last long living that path out.

Doc. I can’t recall you having answered this question before. Why are you able to get over the sexual aspect of your WWs A so easily?

Most men can’t get past this part very well, so I’m wondering what your mindset is about the sex that allows you to move on from it.

So at the start, it felt like the least offensive part of the affair. Her decision that the marriage was over and her decision to bad mouth me to her family and friends felt much more significant. So it’s like a situation where you’re shot it the arm and the chest. Without the chest wound, the arm wound would be a bigger deal.

That said, I’ve had a lot of significant anger over the sex part these last few days. I’ve been exploring why, and my best guess now is it might revolve around the Saturday conversation where she was "protective" of the sexual acts with him and still wanting to withhold those with me.

That deeply hurt me. In my mind, it was like we could form this deeper bond emotionally and it would translate physically and then the meaningless affair sex she had would be gone, but once she tried to compartmentalization it, all the sordid details came rushing back. It’s really been bothering me and it’s causing a lot of anger now that I’m trying to sort though.

Reading your story it made me think why you weren’t angry with the sex acts. You’re addressing this now but correctly if I’m wrong you had cuckold fantasies that you shared with us. Did you share this with your wife? I know it’s not an excuse but did she perhaps subconsciously have an affair to enact this for you?

So it’s been a rough few days—my wife and I have both been traveling separately from work and our communications have been solely negative. I’m upset with her behavior from over the weekend and I’ve felt she’s made no progress over the last two months on changing her narcissistic behavior.

I’ve also read through the texts with her mom a couple more times, thinking I might find further context on who the hell she was, but it just solidifies her as a genuinely horrible person. It’s not practical to share all the text messages here, but they’re worse than you can imagine—and on multiple levels too—each time I read them I pick up on further subtext to how much she hated me and how torn she was emotionally between AP and I.

We had rough exchanges all day yesterday and I echoed many of the sentiments in this thread. I told her I had fallen out of love with her and I was hanging on by a thread to see if this relationship could still work.

She stayed up late and wrote this in an attempt to explain who she was a few months ago. Some of it may be confusing to read, but I’m happy to provide clarity on anything you need.

In the end, during the affair I was a truly awful person. I became hallow inside and built a fantasy world to use as a coping mechanism for what I was feeling. I fed on the negativity, I justified my actions, I was an incredibly selfish person who made my mother an accomplice in all of this. These feelings I can share with [IC], how I resolve this, I can do with [IC]. My next step is to build a road map of who I want to be. That is something she and I discussed.

Who I was during the affair / How I felt pre-affair

During the pandemic I noticed a considerable shift. I noticed a shift in my happiness. I became very overwhelmed. Below provides some context of how I was feeling during the pandemic and who I became during the affair.

· Feeling of isolation:

o Early on during the pandemic I felt no outside connection. In those early moments I remember being extremely nervous – was very unsure about the unknown. I felt isolated from my family. My grandmother wasn’t doing well early on and ultimately ended up passing away and I couldn’t attend the funeral. I sent a letter in place, but ultimately I remember feeling incredibly devastated

o One night early on I remember drinking close to 5 glasses of wine on my own. I remember that night so clearly numbing the pain of being isolated. Going through the pandemic and not having any human contact.

· Felt more stress come on during the pandemic. As we became to isolate we didn’t have our cleaning woman, so I took that role back on, I was working full time, trying to also be a teacher for the kids and create some sense of normalcy in their lives.

o Understanding when we would get supplies: toilet paper, groceries etc.

o This might feel like something silly, but I remember early on sensing fear. Like regaining things back on my plate with no relief.

· Consumed by the negativity at work.

o Early on during the pandemic there was no clear divide between home and work. The lines became blurred. The space, the house became negative. I was constantly at home and had access to my computer at all times and there was no reason to be disconnected.

o In the beginning of 2021, [X], my boss left. I was left to feel unprotected, uncertain at work and I was left feeling that my role was going to immensely change. Like protecting my voice at work, hosting the meetings running my business was going to change because [new boss] was going to come and be my boss. I had seen how she was with the department stores. She took a stance in meetings and wouldn’t let the other girls control their businesses. They had constant touchbases and I could see that she micromanaged which concerned me.

o Then there was a constant attack of [employee]. I knew [employee] wasn’t a strong worker and that often times I wondered what she was doing and she would keep odd hours and her follow up wasn’t consistent. But then I was ultimately forced to fire her. I was forced to put her in the same position I was put in myself twice. I became very anxious and withdrawn as soon as this happened. I recognized all the same feelings I felt when I got fired. Did I do enough? How will I provide? What is my next step in securing another job. Each time I was able to pick myself up, but ultimately I was putting someone in that position and didn’t know if she would pick herself up.

· Resentments –

o My resentments for [BH] built. I thought he had it so easy playing video games. Focusing on his work meetings and not seeing if I needed help putting the kids on zoom. It was easy enough because I worked in the kitchen and could put [son] on.

o I felt resentments because I felt he always focused on how he needed to work out and how it was his schedule.

During the affair I became a completely selfish version of myself. At the time I remember thinking that I was doing some things to "be a good wife." Like having more frequent sex with [BH], but in the end I built a fantasy world for myself to escape to.

· Self – centered

o During the affair only caring about the needs of myself. I wasn’t thinking about the ramifications I would have on my husband, my family, any type of friendships. I truly was ego-centric. Focusing on my needs and my happiness. I didn’t have any empathy for anyone else. This is the one most challenging to write about because its impact.

§ [BH] –

· I didn’t care about his needs during the affair. There were times he was stressed out at work and I didn’t bother following up with him. I made several hollow gestures like writing the Valentines day hearts which was very hard to write given the circumstances. He was attempting to connect with me sexually and I was giving him more sex, but ultimately complaining about things like sexting him when I was in Orlando. At the time I remember thinking that he doesn’t understand how tired I was. I had a 6am flight and had to be up at 4 and was stressed because the day before I spent the entire day at the airport. But he was trying to reach out to connect with me in a way to help spice up our sex life.

§ My mother and sister –

· Despite the attempts of them reaching out and taking me out of the affair I declined all help. I consumed the conversations with my thoughts of the affair and my needs. I never once reached out to them for their needs. Both of them came to visit and I was on the phone like a school girl sending texts to a man who wanted sex from me. I am deeply ashamed that I acted in this manner and that they needed to sit through the most awkward moments post affair.

· Sense of entitlement

o I felt justified at the time entering the affair. I felt justified texting [AP] and being emotionally and physically available for him.

· I was able to rationalize the affair. At the time – the affair felt good, it felt exciting and passionate. I felt connected with someone. I was able to continue the affair because I felt it was right in the moment and brough me happiness. There were days that were difficult because [AP] kept the cards close to his chest, making sure that I didn’t see the hand fully, but giving me just the right amount of attention for me to continue.

o I was able to rationalize the affair in the moments that [BH] and I had arguments. February 4th when I poured salt in one spot in the driveway and he got extremely upset came upstairs and looked at me with those eyes of hate and resentment. Where they eyes of hate and resentment – it felt like that at the time. Calling me an awful human being. I couldn’t understand why – what had I done during that week that was terrible. He didn’t know about the affair at the time, was I projecting my own insecurities onto him.

· Consumed with negativity

o PTA – I was consumed at the time of "being on the right side." Constant battle with the parents and the school. Getting consumed by the topics and everything seemed to be a battle of negativity. It was a struggled with the individual committees. People became caddy and were talking and placing blame on others and I fed into it.

One point of clarity I’ll provide upfront is the reference to the fight her and I had on Feb. 4. My son turned seven on Jan. 30 and my wife was acting awful the entire week. She was really short with me and the kids.

Then it was Friday night, our date night, and we were inside watching TV together and there was an ice storm. Around 8:15 p.m., my wife realized the driveway was getting bad, so I suggested I’d go outside and salt so she could get her car out in the morning. I went looking for my boots, but in a flash, she yelled back that she wanted to do it and ran downstairs to the garage. I followed a couple minutes later after getting dressed and she was outside with the salt.

She dumped a giant pile of salt on the driveway—so I said: "babe, let me take that—we can’t put it in one spot, you need to spread it around."

She said, "no, I got it," and walked a bit over and did the same thing in another spot. Again, I said, "please let me do it, these piles aren’t doing anything and you’re wasting the salt." It was clear the bag was too heavy for her and she couldn’t manage it.

She again said defiantly that she wanted to do it, again walking to a new spot and dumping another pile of salt. I said, "babe, please just go inside and let me finish this—it’s ok, I got it."

She threw the salt down and stormed off very angry. I took a deep breath and finished up with the driveway. About 10 minutes later I went inside and she wasn’t there. It was about 8:40 p.m. I went to look for her and she was up in the bedroom, lights off. I asked what she was doing and she said she was tired and going to bed.

I lost it. In the moment, it felt very clear to me that she fabricated a nonsensical "fight" so she could get out of our date night. She didn’t want to fool around with me, so she forced a conflict and went to bed early—something she had certainly done before, but this one felt particularly egregious coming off her nasty attitude all week and how bizarre her salt antics were.

I yelled at her—easily the most angry I can recall being at her in a very long time (maybe ever?). I told her she was an awful human being and that she needed to tell me wtf was going on because her behavior was insane.

She shut down, per usual, and the yelling conflict lasted less than 30 seconds.

However, she has since used this example of me being mean to her ever since Feb. 4–she became obsessed with it, even referencing it in the early days after D-Day as her justification for cheating. I’ve stood my ground and walked through it with her multiple times—agreeing that I shouldn’t have yelled (I apologized for that in the days that followed), but also pointing out how crazy her behavior was that night.

Edit: It’s also noteworthy that Feb. 4 is the one month anniversary of her first sex session at the hotel with AP. And at that point she hadn’t seen him since Jan. 24 in his car and based on texts with her mom, it seems she might have been stressed not seeing him (they had just been sexting a lot). She was complaining about me to her mom nonstop during the late-Jan timeframe.

She also likely used the Feb. 4 conflict as fuel to go meet him in his car on Feb. 8, even though she was on her period and knew she’d only be giving him a BJ and receiving nothing back.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:01 PM, Wednesday, May 11th]

Reading your story it made me think why you weren’t angry with the sex acts. You’re addressing this now but correctly if I’m wrong you had cuckold fantasies that you shared with us. Did you share this with your wife? I know it’s not an excuse but did she perhaps subconsciously have an affair to enact this for you?

Yes, I’ve referenced this earlier in the thread as feelings of partial blame were very present for me shortly following D-Day. So my wife was aware of the fetish, but it was just one of many sexual ideas I’d mentioned to her, so she assured me it wasn’t on her mind at all and it had nothing to do with her decision to cheat. We discussed in CT and I got the sense the CT didn’t think it was a core issue either, so I stopped forcing it into conversations.

However, I still think it could have had influence on a smaller scale. Again, I was becoming VERY passive with her in our sexlife. Anytime we did anything sexual, she would find a way to ensure I knew she wasn’t happy participating. Not to get too graphic here, but a very common sexual event for us was for me to give her oral sex and pleasure myself. Even then though, if she’d orgasm before me, she’d become very upset because she’d then have to wait for me to finish after she was done.

Just writing that out I’m aware of how insane it is—and there was nothing kinky about it for her, but for me, as a way to make it tolerable, Id fantasize in my head of me being entirely submissive to her—her using me for sexual pleasure and getting none back in return. That represented the vast majority of our sex over the last 4+ years—and my submissiveness in bed goes back much further.

From early on she’d complain about actual intercourse, so much of our sex revolves around oral and hand stimulation.

Anyway, I was a complete door mat for her in the bedroom. It was the only way she’d be even content sexually so I made it work for me, but I won’t pretend it was my preference lol. It seems impossible that it wasn’t related at all though—she sought out carnal sex with another man VERY different than what she was ok doing at home.

We’ve been through it and her actions with AP mirror her actions with me when we met—so for her she thinks she was using sex to get what she wanted, not looking for certain sex acts in contrast to what she was doing with me. But again, I feel like it had to have something to do with it and I will dig in more on that, it’s just other topics have taken priority.

I think she needs to confront herself with the fact that she intentionally sabotaged date night on February 4. There was something going on that made her jump out there ahead of you and do the salt. She needs to admit to what that was and tell you and her therapist.

As for reclaiming sex back from the affair, I say again, she needs to develop a written plan for that. You need to work together to discuss and refine it. I’m still confused why she would proactively bring it up (a good thing) then shoot down every idea (definitely still a wayward thing).

If it were me, I’d ask her to list each and every thing she and the AP did physically and then have her describe what she is going to do in order to change the narrative back to you and do 10x more for each of those things. 10x more frequent, 10x more wild, 10x more meaningful. 10x is just a placeholder number. Fill in what works for you.

She needs to drive that. Not you. And if she can’t, then rebuilding is not going to be likely.

Many will say you can’t demand sex. And I agree with it. But to that I say, she can’t also demand reconciliation.

You know what you need to see and hear from her. Proving herself sexually is only one aspect of rebuilding. But its one so emotionally charged that if it can’t be fulfilled, it can bring down the whole attempt at building something new.

Your anecdote about the manufactured conflict over a mundane task like salting the driveway, that really triggered me. My WXGF did exactly that, with increasing frequency and intensity, in the several months leading up to my Dday. For a while I felt like I was living in some sort of bizarre manufactured environment with hidden cameras and such, like a psychology experiment to determine how much lunatic behavior I could survive.

I think she needs to confront herself with the fact that she intentionally sabotaged date night on February 4. There was something going on that made her jump out there ahead of you and do the salt. She needs to admit to what that was and tell you and her therapist.

Agreed. We have discussed talking about that date with the therapist this entire time, but never have. I’ve found managing time with CT very difficult. It’s only an hour a week and time goes by so quickly during sessions. We also get taken on so many tangents, especially having to do with our families and childhoods. I’m really not sure how to improve that—more things happen each week than we can cover in a session. Perhaps it’s necessary for us to spend less time talking about recent developments and more time on specifics from the affair.

As for reclaiming sex back from the affair, I say again, she needs to develop a written plan for that. You need to work together to discuss and refine it. I’m still confused why she would proactively bring it up (a good thing) then shoot down every idea (definitely still a wayward thing).

If it were me, I’d ask her to list each and every thing she and the AP did physically and then have her describe what she is going to do in order to change the narrative back to you and do 10x more for each of those things. 10x more frequent, 10x more wild, 10x more meaningful. 10x is just a placeholder number. Fill in what works for you.

She needs to drive that. Not you. And if she can’t, then rebuilding is not going to be likely.

Many will say you can’t demand sex. And I agree with it. But to that I say, she can’t also demand reconciliation.

You know what you need to see and hear from her. Proving herself sexually is only one aspect of rebuilding. But its one so emotionally charged that if it can’t be fulfilled, it can bring down the whole attempt at building something new.

Sex is the next big topic for us—hopefully tonight we can dig in.

Agreed. We have discussed talking about that date with the therapist this entire time, but never have. I’ve found managing time with CT very difficult. It’s only an hour a week and time goes by so quickly during sessions. We also get taken on so many tangents, especially having to do with our families and childhoods. I’m really not sure how to improve that—more things happen each week than we can cover in a session.

Set it up as a topic at the end of one session or at least pre-session with WW and counselor. Highlight the concerns and questions to which you need answers. Eg. Why she insisted on doing something you normally handled? My bet it was to prove her indepence. Timing of this behavior on the timeline of the affair and how that might have played into her thought processes. etc.

BTW as a spouse of someone who has very strong opinions on how things should be done I can get the frustration of your wayward that you came out and critiqued her de-icing. That was a major conflict point early in our marriage. I never stop my wife from doing something she insists on doing. She's learned to let it go when I'm doing things in a way she considers sub-optimal, just as I let it go when her way is really the sub-optimal one. Results are what matters. Even if the results aren't perfect.

[This message edited by grubs at 3:16 PM, Wednesday, May 11th]

Managing CT sessions can be tough. You need to walk in with 2 topics to discuss each session and set a clear schedule to change gears. Otherwise it is easy to spin off topic.
Setup an alarm at 5 minutes to half the session and force a wrap up 2.5 minute summation from each of you and 2 minutes from the CT. Then move to the new topic. That way you see the CT progressing instead of just being a referee for your conversations.
Maybe ask about ways to communicate and discuss the times post affair you have felt better and which ones land on deaf ears.

Eg. Why she insisted on doing something you normally handled? My bet it was to prove her indepence.

Doc you tell us, but jumping out to do the driveway seems out of character like it had something to do directly with the affair. Like the AP told her to do it as a control thing, or she wanted to show the AP what she did. Not sure if it was one of those things or something like it.

Or as Doc suggested, she knew she’d get criticized and then could use it as an excuse to sleep with the AP.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:08 PM, Wednesday, May 11th]

You don't have a sex problem; you have a wife problem. I guarantee you that if you go into your counseling session or you next conversation with the affair talking about sex and all these sex acts you've been denied, she will immediately turn you on your head and tell you that you have no right to force her to do things, she's not a sex doll, etc. She will play the poor victimized woman routine while casting you as the mean chauvinist bully. Nothing constructive will come out of it.

Your struggles in the bedroom are just an extension of all the other problems that you're currently having in your relationship. For example, you mentioned that she's completely unreceptive to idea or requests you have to make your sex life more satisfying, and sex typically involves you getting her off and her getting visibly bored or frustrated when it's your turn to experience pleasure.

How is this different than any other aspect of the your relationship? You went out to salt the driveway, she jumped in front you, and needlessly created a conflict that ended a date night that you were looking forward to. When it comes to having conversations about the affair, she can go on and on about how awful she feels and what brought her from one point to another, but the minute the conversation switches toward you and your pain, it becomes a fight. When you went out your way to make sure that she felt appreciated and loved on Mother's Day, her response (after enjoying the abondanza of food you prepared) was to spend the entire evening sulking, which denied you the ability to feel satisfied with your efforts and happy before you left for your trip.

Your experience inside the bedroom will not improve until your life outside the bedroom does. I'm not saying that you should never broach your unhappiness with sex (it will need to be addressed, if you end up staying together), but as long as you have a selfish wife who insists on having a relationship exclusively on her terms, you will never experience fulfillment in your sex life with her.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 4:29 PM, Wednesday, May 11th]

BTW as a spouse of someone who has very strong opinions on how things should be done I can get the frustration of your wayward that you came out and critiqued her de-icing. That was a major conflict point early in our marriage. I never stop my wife from doing something she insists on doing. She's learned to let it go when I'm doing things in a way she considers sub-optimal, just as I let it go when her way is really the sub-optimal one. laugh Results are what matters. Even if the results aren't perfect.

I don’t know that it falls under the category of suboptimal lol. I’m not being hyperbolic when I say she literally created three very large piles of salt in the driveway.

Managing CT sessions can be tough. You need to walk in with 2 topics to discuss each session and set a clear schedule to change gears. Otherwise it is easy to spin off topic.
Setup an alarm at 5 minutes to half the session and force a wrap up 2.5 minute summation from each of you and 2 minutes from the CT. Then move to the new topic. That way you see the CT progressing instead of just being a referee for your conversations.
Maybe ask about ways to communicate and discuss the times post affair you have felt better and which ones land on deaf ears.

So the CT has not been a referee at all—in fact, we virtually never address each other. Almost everything my wife and I say in a session is directed at the CT. The bulk of time spent has been in providing her with background on who we are and then diving into whatever the issue of the last few days has been.

I mean it’s all fine, but I haven’t found it very productive for me. The biggest value has been the CT echoing many of my points—my wife has been far more receptive to them when the CT says them.

Doc you tell us, but jumping out to do the driveway seems out of character like it had something to do directly with the affair. Like the AP told her to do it as a control thing, or she wanted to show the AP what she did. Not sure if it was one of those things or something like it.

Or as Doc suggested, she knew she’d get criticized and then could use it as an excuse to sleep with the AP.

My best guess is that it started out as an independence thing—at that point she was still wrestling with the idea that the marriage was going to end. She was flirting with the idea of leaving me and having her own space—she says that was never real, but it was certainly an idea. She felt trapped though, not wanting to leave the kids.

What ultimately happened is she was able to create a conflict about it and she did—but I don’t think she set out to start a fight, though who knows.

You don't have a sex problem; you have a wife problem. I guarantee you that if you go into your counseling session or you next conversation with the affair talking about sex and all these sex acts you've been denied, she will immediately turn you on your head and tell you that you have no right to force her to do things, she's not a sex doll, etc. She will play the poor victimized woman routine while casting you as the mean chauvinist bully. Nothing constructive will come out of it.

Your struggles in the bedroom are just an extension of all the other problems that you're currently having in your relationship. For example, you mentioned that she's completely unreceptive to idea or requests you have to make your sex life more satisfying, and sex typically involves you getting her off and her getting visibly bored or frustrated when it's your turn to experience pleasure.

How is this different than any other aspect of the your relationship? You went out to salt the driveway, she jumped in front you, and needlessly created a conflict that ended a date night that you were looking forward to. When it comes to having conversations about the affair, she can go on and on about how awful she feels and what brought her from one point to another, but the minute the conversation switches toward you and your pain, it becomes a fight. When you went out your way to make sure that she felt appreciated and loved on Mother's Day, her response (after enjoying the abondanza of food you prepared) was to spend the entire evening sulking, which denied you the ability to feel satisfied with your efforts and happy before you left for your trip.

Your experience inside the bedroom will not improve until your life outside the bedroom does. I'm not saying that you should never broach your unhappiness with sex (it will need to be addressed, if you end up staying together), but as long as you have a selfish wife who insists on having a relationship exclusively on her terms, you will never experience fulfillment in your sex life with her.

You’re spot on. And I called my wife out on that exact point last night.

We talked about her refusal to masterbate because AP asked her. We talked about how she sabotaged Mother’s Day. I pointed to several other things that clearly and irrefutably showed her self-obsessed behavior. She agreed with all of it and apologized for all of it—ultimately the conversation led to her writing that email I shared above.

She’s able to recognize her narcissism, but unable to change her behavior. It has me feeling like this is pointless until I see signs of improvement.

Even today, I told her I want to dig in our sexlife and I wrote her a long email about what I expect in the conversation. She became a bit resistant to some of what I was asking, saying she’s already done it (like listing out sex acts with AP). Then she said she’d rather have the conversation in CT, but I don’t see why. I hate bringing things up in CT we haven’t tried to explore on our own first, but maybe I’m wrong in that.

She’s able to recognize her narcissism, but unable to change her behavior. It has me feeling like this is pointless until I see signs of improvement.

I think you mean UNWILLING.

As others have put more eloquently, she does what she wants and she really doesn't care if it is at your expense. She pretends she cares when you call her out, but she is clearly trying to pacify you.