SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A man can only share his experience, dressed as advice, so here is mine.

I see so many similarities between your WW and mine.
And you seem to have a similar deep love for her, the energy, the strength, and the illusion of trying to fix this.

She will face the immense pain of what happened from a selfish perspective during that trip.
She will reach out to you constantly, telling you how she misses you, etc. She will need your support because she can't carry this immense pain alone.
At the same time, she will most likely resume contact with the AP. For the same reasons, she can't carry this alone, and they are in this together.

My advice for you: don't buy into this. TRULY take time for yourself.
Don't try to stop her, don' try to control her. You'll lose your mind, your dignity, and your sanity.

You won't lose her if you don't answer her texts.
You won't "lose her" if you don't call her.
And things are not over or getting much worse if she still talks to the AP. What else can she do to make things even worse?

Truly, TRULY take this time for you. Let her sit into the consequences of her behavior. The silence of your absence will be immensely more potent of everything you could say to her right now.

Things will get overpowering hard in the next coming months and years.

Take time to grieve. To cry. To hug your inner child and get in tune with your inner warrior. You will need both.

[This message edited by alucard at 10:33 PM, Friday, March 25th]

This is my first post on your thread. Sometimes we forget how shitty and confusing the time just after Dday was and we offer advice that the OP isn't ready to take yet, as they are still reading from the news. You sound like a decent man from your reactions to your WW'S A. The problem with decent people is that their core values and character is leveraged against them by their intimate partner who knows them well. This is especially harmful when those core values score high on the codependency spectrum.

I'm quite codependent and the recommendation for No More Mr.Nice Guy helped me as did this site. I'm a fixer by nature and as soon as I decided to try and R, I got to work. Notice the pronoun I. There was no we. It took me a few weeks to notice that my STBXWW was not willing to do any real work other than not cheat anymore. In fact, she continued acting skanky on a few outings. I gave her 6 months to pull her head out of her ass and marked the date on my calendar. I watched, I noted, and I remembered.

Six months hit and I went on a week long solo trip to decide for sure. I came back, asked one simple question: what are YOU doing to help me heal?

Her response was incredulous. She told me that she could not be there for me until I was in a better place because I made her feel too guilty. Yes, my STBXWW is an idiot of titanic proportions.

You are going to cycle through emotions and cycle back. It not a linear process. Already from the tone and tenor of your posts, I can see anger emerge. Be angry. It is a pure and primal emotion that is often rooted in seeing injustice. It can be cathartic. Just don't live there. Denying your anger will create a toxic internal state. Talk. Write. Post. Read. Journal... it helps.

Next. Cheaters lie. A lot. About anything. And everything you discover a lie, they will swear by heaven and earth that they have now told you everything. Until the next one. Yeah, it's a feedback loop. But, you can get off the ride at anytime.

For me, D was always the outcome. It was inevitable. I am old school and loyalty is massive for me. We might have repaired the M, but it would never be the same. I would never be able to love her like a husband should, and I did adore her. We would never make love again. Even in those 6 months, she was just something I fucked. I hated it and it was soul crushing to condemn myself to being shackled to a corpse. Some people can R, I can't apparently. But most are like me and it's a deal-breaker.

If you try to R, and it's way too early for that yet, remember this: You can change your mind at any time. Sure you may have promised to try, but she VOWED to be faithful, and well, you know.

You may want to read Cheating in a Nutshell. It really helped put into perspective why I felt like I did. These two books combined with Codependent No More helped me to learn boundaries and the word NO. I've also discover variations like Hell no! And Fuck no! I cannot tell you how liberating it is to put oneself first, especially in a world where men are often conditioned to take one for the team, step up, etc.

This will probably be my only post on your thread as I don't often post more than once. I was deeply disappointed when you were reluctant to contact the OBS. Mostly because you seem like a good and honorable man, and contacting her is the good and honorable thing to do. Not contacting her might eat at you, especially as time passes and adds to feeling of guilt and responsibility you might feel. Time rarely helps a problem. You can come up with a myriad number of reasons not to do something, but are they right and good and mostly honorable?

I'll be following your thread and hoping for good things for you, regardless of your choices. My biggest hope is that you put yourself first. After all, you cannot pour from an empty cup...

I'm a fixer by nature and as soon as I decided to try and R, I got to work. Notice the pronoun I. There was no we. It took me a few weeks to notice that my STBXWW was not willing to do any real work other than not cheat anymore. In fact, she continued acting skanky on a few outings. I gave her 6 months to pull her head out of her ass and marked the date on my calendar. I watched, I noted, and I remembered.

Six months hit and I went on a week long solo trip to decide for sure. I came back, asked one simple question: what are YOU doing to help me heal?

Her response was incredulous. She told me that she could not be there for me until I was in a better place because I made her feel too guilty. Yes, my STBXWW is an idiot of titanic proportions.

I’m sorry you went through that—your ex seems horrible. Nothing about my wife was ever like that—she was sweet and always put everyone else first. Frankly, her behavior the last several months is insanity.

But it doesn’t matter why really—it happened and I can’t get out from under it.

People have told you not to tell your wife before speaking to OBS. I agree. You should then tell your WW.

AP is likely to contact your WW when you do tell the OBS.

Before you go on your trip, make sure to remind your BS that there is to be no contact with AP at all while you are away, no matter what, and that if she does so, you will take it as a further and deliberate betrayal. A stab in the back, again, on purpose.

Also that there is to be no deletion of any email, text, message, voicemail or missed call notification from AP. The only acceptable response is to blank him, show you everything when you get back, and then decide what if anything is to be done, together.

Make a booking with the marriage counsellor for when you are away. If the crap is hitting the fan with AP messaging her whilst you are gone, she should speak to the counsellor about her anxiety. But on no account, irrespective of her motives or anyone’s advice to her, is there to be contact with AP. If he were to turn up at the house in frustration, she must literally not open the door and the only utterance can be ‘F off now!’

You’ll be fine when you realize there isn’t anything to get out from underneath. It’s just another human who may or may not be worth to be married to you. It is a really big deal but ten years from now it will not be, so adjust your perspective. If she is lucky enough to be invited to join you on life’s journey then good for her. You need just you.

I think the timing of the Italy trip is a bit of serendipity for you. I sense that you're struggling with trying to distance yourself from your WW, to create that psychological space that enables you to breathe, to search for your heart's truth. I think this time on the road will have a wholly salutary impact on your mental well-being.

At the risk of seeming impetuous, I'd suggest you strongly consider confiding in your mother and seeking her advice. I don't know your mother at all, so I realize this may be a lunatic idea, but in general I find that our elders often harbor a lot more hard-won life experience and resulting wisdom than we realize.

If you are doing the trip, at least hire a PI or get some tracking device on her so you know the real situation you are coming back to.

She seems to be an actor of sorts and could continue the affair while you are away and act that all is well when you get home.

If she sees OM while you are on the trip, then is that a deal breaker for you ? Wouldn't you want to know ?

Or you can polygraph her when you get back with one of the questions being if she met him while you were away and further if she ever had any sexual contact with any other man before her affair with him and after she was with you

You decided to tell the OBS. AWESOME decision!!!

It’s now CRITICAL you tell the OBS BEFORE you leave for Italy.

If you are doing the trip, at least hire a PI or get some tracking device on her so you know the real situation you are coming back to.

She seems to be an actor of sorts and could continue the affair while you are away and act that all is well when you get home.

If she sees OM while you are on the trip, then is that a deal breaker for you ? Wouldn't you want to know ?

Or you can polygraph her when you get back with one of the questions being if she met him while you were away and further if she ever had any sexual contact with any other man before her affair with him and after she was with you

I've seen some genuine remorse from her the last couple of days. I think she's done with the other guy and I'd say there's a 0.0% chance she meets with him while I'm in Italy. I do think there's always a chance he manages to contact her and she caves and talks to him though, but I'd think it's more likely months from now if it happens--regardless, that risk will always be there. She knows that I want her to inform me immediately if he contacts her and not respond before discussing with me. FWIW, I currently believe her. I know my issues are going to come later on, if we're working toward reconciliation and things begin to normalize--that's when trust is going to eat away at me.

And on the topic of reconciliation, while I believe her efforts are now genuine, I don't know where I stand. We spent last night reading "How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair" together. We each had our own copy and read through the first part of the book, highlighting different points--we then discussed them. Truthfully, her effort to go above and beyond almost made me feel bad because now I have a harder time displacing my anger. The first week was filled with deflection and justifications that I could pounce on, but now she pauses, breathes, and apologizes. I can't even pretend it's forced just so she can get through this.

She's apologized to her family and my mother as well. She knows she fucked up and says she feels like she was on drugs for three months.

So again, my issue isn't want she does tomorrow, it's what she might do in the future once this remorse leaves center stage. What she did was calculating and cruel--she left me emotionally and sexually and deceived me every moment of the day. It would be insane to pretend she couldn't find herself in an opportunity to do it again a year from now. So I'm just going to observe--she's seeing her personal therapist for the first appointment on Tuesday and then we have the CT on Wednesday. We'll see where this takes us over the next few months and I'll decide what I need to do for myself then. I want to see that she trusts me with her trust again--that we feel like a partnership and can rely with each other in full. She developed an alcohol problem (forgot if I noted that in this thread), was having the affair, was fucking up at work, and all of it was done in secret behind my back. I need to know that can't happen again and it's up to her to prove it.

As for the Italy trip, I'm 90% convinced I'm going. The CT had concerns initially, but that was the week of discovery. We're going to make it a primary point of discussion on Wednesday and she'll have to do a hell of a job to convince me to cancel it (if that's what she even thinks).

As for the other wife, I had decided to tell her (also at 90% I'd say), but both my mother and the CT were opposed to it (and they're the only people outside of this thread that I can talk to about it. I've heard all of your views and I've come to agree with them. Now I'm going to hear them out over the coming days and make my decision. I have thus far refrained from doing anything rash and I'll continue to follow my compass.

You are doing well at this point so I early in the process of healing and recovery? You seem pretty self aware. I wish I had some money for every instance that a BS arrives and relates that their normally loving, caring, reasonable spouse was acting totally out of character. Like their body had been taken over by aliens. Happens all the time. I can’t explain it. No one can. You might look at a thread by BeyondRage who’s WW also acted completely out of character, and reacted going above and beyond to show remorse and begin the process to recover her M.

You are correct to realize you can’t control her. Your trip to Italy will give you good separation to get your bearings, and observe her actions upon your return. Best of luck.

You're on a forum,filled with betrayed spouses. Not a single one has said you shouldn't tell the OBS. Because we all understand it's the right thing to do,and WHY it's the right thing to do. We also know it's one of the single best things a BS can do,if they want to safeguard their fragile marriage.

It's not shocking they your MC said not to tell. Her job is to heal your marriage. She doesn't want you to focus on someone else's.

And your mom is your mom.

Unless either of these people have been cheated on, they don't get the need to tell.

If you don't tell..one day you will understand why you should have. Even if you have a successful reconciliation.

I hope you give it more consideration, and reach a conclusion you can live with.

[This message edited by HellFire at 11:13 PM, Saturday, March 26th]

The reason why a lot of therapists say not to is they are paid to save the marriage for the next 12 months. The really good ones, of course, do not feel that way. But the strong incentive for therapists would be for you to stay and be "happy", ignoring the kraken that is living under the surface.... but by then your blame wouldn't be assigned to them in any fashion.

Ask the therapist "I have zero trust in the woman who fired me as her husband. One way to help rebuild trust is by making sure that atleast this current affair is burned to the ground. We cannot start reconciliation until it is, and I'm not willing to take her word for it. Given exposure kills the affair from both sides then why do you not suggest that I do this. Compounding it, it is the ethical thing to do, are you suggesting that I do not conduct myself ethicially? Isn't this why we are here? Doesn't the other spouse deserve the same chance that I have, the option of checking her self for STDs?"

So again, my issue isn't what she does tomorrow, it's what she might do in the future once this remorse leaves center stage.

Yes Doc, THAT ^^ right there is the truth of all truths.

My ExWW, who remarkably sounds a lot like yours, put up quite an impressive display of remorse-like behavior on the horns of DD. I enthusiastically bit into that, hook-line and sinker, as I desperately wanted her to be truly remorseful. Her resolve began to gradually deteriorate after about 3-5 months. She progressively became more relaxed and defiant. Began questioning the most conventional terms of R. Became progressively intolerant of my very common and relatively in-excessive post infidelity trauma symptoms.

True remorse is relentless. It not only requires a requisite love and desire for the BS, but it also requires a WS who has the capacity for true remorse and the strength and intelligence to holistically heal thyself AND their damaged spouse-at the same time, with little promise of success. This is a Herculean feat and an enormous sacrifice of time when she could just cut her losses and make a run for a fresh start.

It takes persevering loving patience.

Although she will have to do the heavy lifting, she will still need some help. How much should you help? You should help just enough to not sandbag or sabotage her good efforts. You should take some responsibility in healing yourself by getting into IC, following through with the therapy, and provide your WS with the constructive feedback she needs to affect continuous fine tuning of her efforts.

If you find her resolve going into decline, if you find her beginning to resent her predicament, rug sweeping, minimizing her affair and it’s affect on you, victimizing herself at your expense, pushing impatiently for premature return to false normalcy, and you find yourself doing more and more of the work, then you don’t have genuine remorse. You have imitation naugahyde remorse.

It sucks, because on the horns of DD, your body is ripping with adrenaline to fight or flight. To take action. To charge in and save the marriage! However, after you’ve already taken care of your post DD tactical primer check list of actions, you should counterintuitively, do nothing. If you wish to R, you should watch and carefully observe her natural actions and evaluate if she is R material, if she has the capacity for R.

You won’t just know it. You’ll slowly start realizing it over months, months of observed relatively consistent actions.

And during this time you will also learn if YOU are R material. You may not be. This may have been an absolute deal breaker for you.

You will go through the stages of grieving a marriage (shock-denial-obsessive fact finding, desperation-bargaining-hysterical bonding, anger, depression and acceptance)

It’s a long journey my friend. All of us here are in different points along this journey.

You’re at the agonizing very beginning of your journey where you have no idea how things are going to turn out or who you’re actually dealing with.

As the months progress your path will become increasingly more clear.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 12:33 AM, Sunday, March 27th]

I would not recommend seeing any therapist who thinks you should not tell the other betrayed spouse. That blows my mind and there is absolutely no way that is a good therapist. You have hundreds of people on this forum who have been thru this PERSONALLY and every single one recommending you tell that poor woman, immediately. I hope that you do.

You should shop around for a new therapist if possible. At least get a feel for another to compare. This therapist wants you to lie and keep your cheating wife's secrets. I can't imagine they can actually help you.

So again, my issue isn't want she does tomorrow, it's what she might do in the future once this remorse leaves center stage.

It might be useful to do some reading on the distinction between remorse and regret. Regret will wane over time, as you note. Remorse is grounded in empathy. Empathy is a skill that builds if exercised regularly.

Thanks for the update. You have your head screwed on straight. And you are starting to realize how long the road you are on really is. I was worried at first that you were just another rug sweeper that was looking to get back to normal as soon as possible.

Unfortunately normal is gone forever. As they say, there could be a new normal, but that will take longer to build than your original relationship took, and will be quite different. It can be satisfying again, but not for the same reasons.

I want to reiterate something I wrote in my last post (which I urge you to find a few pages back and reread). You cannot lead this effort. Part of me still thinks that while you are now saying you under that, you are still trying to.

For example, why did you order the books? You should have not had to do that. It’s a small example, but that and things like it are down the road going to be issues in your mind. Your gonna say "did she reconcile with me because I wanted it, or because she wanted it?"

Her leading the effort shows you how much she really wants this.

As I suggested before, you should tell her you want a written recovery plan from her. A first draft you discuss. It should include a written document of her affair. And it should include how she is going to help you heal, fix herself, and rebuild your relationship.

Sure you have your ideas. But what are hers?

And how does she plan to make you feels safe while you are away. She needs to really think about it. Ask her for a real plan for those two weeks. If I were her, I’d ask someone to come stay with her while she is away. I’m not sure who you can trust. But at least it shows she’s really interested in being accountable. She could also recommend you install cameras of some sort. And ask you to have people drop by unannounced.

I don’t care what it is, but it needs to be better than trust me.

The work a WS does afterDDay is what shows they are worthy of reconciliation. We know you are. But you doing her work doesn’t let you determine if she is.

If she’s not doing those things then you can let her know she’s welcome yo go be with someone else who makes her happy.

This woman shot an emotional bullet into your heart. They PTSD from that can be as strong or stronger as being shot by a real gun. If the person who did it is going to atone for what they did, it has to be real and it has to be meaningful and it has to be proactive.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:57 AM, Sunday, March 27th]

All i can say is, you need to slow down. Dont jump your gun for R so early. From the posts you look like a man doing pick me dance high on hopium. She still doesn't understand the devastation she caused. Let her get there HERSELF. She wants R, she should be the one taking initiative of it. You need to take care of your own physical and mental health first. R is a longterm process so, dont make any hasty decisions, otherwise your plan will backfire.

Doing CT is not advised in the early DDay. Beccause, your marriage didnt cause her affair. She initiated it. If she had any problems with the marriage, she could have initiated a discussion about it with you and process it mutually. Having an affair doesn't mean you had issues in the marriage. Many WS have affairs inspite of being in a happy marriage. So, CT is a big NO from me.

Bottom line is, she should earn the right to ask for R, not the other way.

For example, why did you order the books? You should have not had to do that. It’s a small example, but that and things like it are down the road going to be issues in your mind. Your gonna say "did she reconcile with me because I wanted it, or because she wanted it?"

Her leading the effort shows you how much she really wants this.

As I suggested before, you should tell her you want a written recovery plan from her. A first draft you discuss. It should include a written document of her affair. And it should include how she is going to help you heal, fix herself, and rebuild your relationship.

Sure you have your ideas. But what are hers?

Apologies I was unclear on these—it’s upsetting me that I clearly keep making non-comprehensive posts and leading you all in bad directions.

My wife did order the books. I brought it up, based on reading this thread, and she ordered it from Amazon before I finished the thought. I then added that maybe we should get twoso I could read it with he, so she ordered another one.

We have spent the last two nights reading and discussing the book. Last night was harder because we read the chapter about what to do after being discovered and she sees how poorly she handled it.

I also want to thank you for the recommendation of the written testimony—I liked the idea and suggested it to her the other day. She has since spent every free moment writing. She’s at seven pages and not even up to the first hotel stay. She keeps writing and then talking to me about how much it’s helping and how much more she’s remembering about her deception.

She also keeps pushing for me to start reading it, but I’ve told her I’ll wait.

Most waywards that attempt to R don’t do everything perfect day one. Yours seems to be doing the major steps which is positive.

Ask that her timeline includes any cheating she might have done since you have started dating. After your trip, it should include any contact with the OM. Tell her, you will check the truth of that timeline with a polygraph so she better not forget anything.

When the waywards does the work,it means you have two options instead of one. Don’t think of your WW as the wife you love and cherish m, but rather the woman you are dating and trying to decide if you want to marry her.

Telling the OBS will increase your chances at success with R if that’s what you want. You will not break someone else marriage, that was done entirely by your WW and the OM.

Ok makes me feel better (not that I matter) that you are getting the importance of her leading this effort. As I said, you don’t want to end up reconciling (if it’s at all possible) with yourself.

One piece of advice, don’t read the timeline, have her read it out loud to you. There is no greater impact to a WS of what they had done than to have than to have to say it out loud with their spouse in the room. It takes all the romance and sexiness out of the affair. It makes it sound sad and the actions of two broken people.

You continue to handle this well and I know, in your own time, you’ll take the step of talking to the OBS.

Take care of yourself.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:01 PM, Sunday, March 27th]