SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

ok dude.

It seems now that you are ok with your wife cheating on you but with communication. I agree with the others that this is co-dependency. But it's worse. I am exiting this show.

Good luck to you.

Get what you want out of this. But I am no open relationship guy.

You get what you call for.

I figured about three days ago this was a test thread. Now you come out with the truth. Really sad dude

I’m not ok with anyone cheating on anyone. I did have fantasies of being in a relationship with a person who had sex with other people with my knowledge. I never translated that fantasy to reality because I never had a desire to do so—it was a fantasy.

Regardless, there is a big line between cheating and some form of an open relationship. Considering this experience, I like I’m likely to move on from that fetish mentally. My only point was that in the moment months ago, I wonder if I would have been open to exploring our sexuality with her flirting with the guy with my knowledge. Personally, I don’t think I’d have ever gotten to the point where I was open to her having a hotel stay.

Doc, I just read some more of your replies and also wanted to add:

That the WHY’s of her affair lie deeper than her NEEDS for marital satisfaction. They’re two completely separate issues that need to be addressed.

She needs to address her true why’s first. Why did she choose this destructive and totally unproductive route vs a more rational, considerate, loving and healthy approach.

THEN, you two can go in and look at her unmet needs.

You may find that her unmet needs have nothing to do with a lack of SEXUAL chemistry as that wasn’t an issue early in your relationship.

You may find that she was looking for intimacy. I’m talking that deep intimacy that we all need, crave. That level of intimacy that completely transcends sex, turns sex into something much more profound, special, binding and relevant. I’m talking deep love making. Sex with an affair partner rarely ever meets this level of intimacy. It’s often just, sex. Just good ole forgettable, many times regrettable, college dorm sport sex.

The HB you guys are currently enjoying can be very reaffirming, a kind of re-taking, re-occupation of each other. It feels like a major step above routine sex, but is still not on that level of intimacy you want to achieve for deep marital love making.

Second subject;

Your online activities.

Was this done in secret?

We’re you completely transparent with these activities?

Was your wife COMPLETELY on board with these activities?

Could they have caused harm to your marriage?

Did you share a level of intimacy with your online partners that you did not share with your wife?

Did you talk about your wife or your sex life without her knowledge?

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 12:04 AM, Monday, March 28th]

It seems now that you are ok with your wife cheating on you but with communication

I don’t think he said that. It was a fantasy that he had and he communicated it to her. She is the one who turned the fantasy into reality.
She needs to figure out her whys and he needs to figure out if he wants to stay in a marriage without regular intimacy

Sorry, I’m experiencing a flight of ideas here and we’re cross posting a bit.

Open Marriages:

Open Marriages only work for couples who are extremely well adapted, well secured in their relationship, have reached a level of fully actualized intimacy and where they have firm boundaries that allow them to completely separate their love life from their sex life.

Fantasizing about an open relationship can come from a healthy place or an unhealthy place.

You have to ask yourselves, where did your fantasy and her desire to open the marriage derive from?

Doc, I just read some more of your replies and also wanted to add:

That the WHY’s of her affair lie deeper than her NEEDS for marital satisfaction. They’re two completely separate issues that need to be addressed.

She needs to address her true why’s first. Why did she choose this destructive and totally unproductive route vs a more rational, considerate, loving and healthy approach.

THEN, you two can go in and look at her unmet needs.

You may find that her unmet needs have nothing to do with a lack of SEXUAL chemistry as that wasn’t an issue early in your relationship.

You may find that she was looking for intimacy. I’m talking that deep intimacy that we all need, crave. That level of intimacy that completely transcends sex, turns sex into something much more profound, special, binding and relevant. I’m talking deep love making. Sex with an affair partner rarely ever meets this level of intimacy. It’s often just, sex. Just good ole forgettable college dorm sport sex.

The HB you guys are currently enjoying can be very reaffirming, a kind of re-taking, re-occupation of each other. It feels like a major step above routine sex, but is still not on that level of intimacy you want to achieve for deep marital love making.

Also very possible. We have a lot of work to do if we want an evolved relationship—or any relationship at all. Right now we are focused on the affair, but we will have no shortage of material to work through should we succeed.

Second subject;

Your online activities.

Was this done in secret?

We’re you completely transparent with these activities?

Was your wife COMPLETELY on board with these activities?

Could they have caused harm to your marriage?

Partially. It’s not something I flaunted in front of her, but it is something I shared with her intermittently. It seemed like she grouped it under porn or anything else I did to satisfy sexual needs without her. She wasn’t interested in details and seemed to disregard it—which upset me how disinterested she was in my sexual desires. It led to resentment for her and my resentment led to actions that caused her to resent me. I’m not a passive aggressive person, generally, but in this area it’s clear that I was.

Did you share a level of intimacy with your online partners that you did not share with your wife?

Did you talk about your wife or your sex life without her knowledge?

My relationship with women online was purely around my sexual fetishes. My wife’s involvement was a fabrication—I’d create a scenario where my wife was cuckolding me and I’d share those made up stories with the women. Writing it out, I am aware of how it reads and I clearly am fucked up lol.

To avoid feeling guilty about it, I’d tell my wife about it, but I was still 100% wrong to be doing it. I believe it further damaged an already faulty sexual relationship with her.

[This message edited by Drstrangelove at 12:15 AM, Monday, March 28th]

It’s seems like you have the capacity for honest, intelligent, insightful introspection.

That’s a virtue that not many people possess.

If your Wife has this same capacity and you two can really get down to some deeply intimate and honest communication, I think it’s possible to raise a new and improved marriage from ashes of this mess.

OP. Thank you for being so open and honest. If I were a betting man, with lots of good IC and eventually MC down the road, I would say you’re one of the rare BH’s who not only successfully R’s, but also perhaps comes out of this with a stronger marriage.

No one wants to be cheated on. However, again, and so infrequently, this may end up having a silver lining. Had the both of you continued down the same road pre Dday, there was a good chance that you would have ended up D, or in a meh marriage at best, plodding along unhappily and resentful of one another.

The fact that you think you can get past the sexual part of your WW’s A is huge. Most men can’t. I’m rooting for the both of you.

You have to ask yourselves, where did your fantasy and her desire to open the marriage derive from?

I’ve always been attracted to the mental aspects of sex. For me, sexual enjoyment is always about the situation and not about the literal physical pleasure. I’ve indulged in sexual kinks from across the spectrum.

As to why the cuckolding fetish took such a big hold, I think it’s two-fold.

For one, I think I was able to look at all porn through that same psychological lens—you sit and watch people having sex; another man having sex with the gorgeous girl while you, the lesser man, jerks off. It made it so no matter what porn I watched, I had that mental angle to get me off quicker—because just watching two people have regular sex was less appealing.

The second reason I think was because I could apply this fetish to my wife without her direct involvement. She wasn’t enjoying intercourse with me, so I needed an angle mentally to enjoy my sexual relationship with her. So I’d often give her oral sex and imagine being the beta male who couldn’t please her (I am aware of the irony now lol).

I've never had a sexual conversation with a married woman (well, one exception, but the husband was involved).

If these have all been people you've been chatting with online, with words typed on a computer, you'd have no way of knowing whether the people you were chatting with were married women, or even women at all. The world of online sex chat is chockablock with catfishing. Even if you've had live video conversations with one of these people, the individual on the other side of the conversation could be a front for a catfisher.

I think all of this background, though complicated, is mostly just white noise. So you each had sexual experiences in your young age reflective of a young person coming to grips with his/her nascent adult self. Who among us hasn't? So you harbor some sexual fantasies that help to get you off. Who among us doesn't?

People who are poly or have open relationships or relationships where cuckold fetishes are actually acted upon, whatever, in every case, the sine qua non is honesty, openness, communication, agreeing to and abiding by rules. None of that was present in your case. No matter what:

(a) Your wife cheated on you sexually with another man. She did not have your advance consent.

(b) She knew it was cheating on you. That's why she tried to hide it. That's why she lied to you.

(c) If you had not caught her, she would still be cheating on you.

(d) The man she cheated with is married. Therefore, in addition to hurting you, your WW has injured an innocent person. You are the one who has the key to help that person start her healing.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:28 AM, Monday, March 28th]

From a few posts back:

I want to see that she trusts me with her trust again

Errrm, sorry to break it to you, but this is a big nope on the mindset.

What you should be looking for instead is, to look and see if she is trying to EARN your trust back.

As with the path to R, the WS has to work towards earning the trust of the BS, so that the BS is willing to give them a chance at R.

Generally, R that is given freely and quickly has a low probability of succeeding, as the WS has not put any effort into the process, and as such, it becomes taken fro granted. The chance at R cannot be taken from granted if it is to lead to a successful R.

If these have all been people you've been chatting with online, with words typed on a computer, you'd have no way of knowing whether the people you were chatting with were married women, or even women at all. The world of online sex chat is chockablock with catfishing. Even if you've had live video conversations with one of these people, the individual on the other side of the conversation could be a front for a catfisher.

I understand why you all want to jump to various conclusions, but this isn’t true. I wrote out a longer post and deleted it as I’d rather not get into this sidebar. Neither girl was married and neither girl was a random catfish situation.

I understand why you all want to jump to various conclusions, but this isn’t true.

I didn't reach any conclusion, by jumping, inferring, or otherwise. Merely suggested a possibility. You do love to deflect and follow diversions. It's something I've noticed throughout this thread, in your responses to many posters. I wonder if this is just something you do here, or if it's part of your day-to-day communication style. Just saying.

IMO, the only part of the sexual history that is relevant to this thread is the reference to your WW's low self-esteem. Time and time again we find that cheaters are seeking ego kibbles from people who will pump up their self-esteem with saccharine words. It's one of if not the most common vectors to cheating. Low self esteem coupled with poor communication skills, all layered atop a shyte moral character in which lying, sneaking and cheating seems like a more logical way of assuaging low self-esteem than communicating with one's spouse, or seeking therapy.

If you wish to engage in cuckold fantasy play with your wife, I'm not gonna judge. Whatever floats your boat.

However, the linchpin to this working successfully is a couple that does this together, as a couple. That means communicating and working together to pursue this. Communication. Working in concert. Honesty. Agreeing to and abiding by rules or limits. You talk it out and map it out in advance. How will she find the guy? What level of flirting will precede the act? Will it be in a hotel? A car? The marital bedroom? Will the co-conspirator husband be hiding and watching? Listening via Facetime? Will protection be required or not? Can he finish inside her or not? The point is, all of this is discussed and agreed to in advance, to ensure that both partners can get turned on from the play. Afterwards, the married couple can giggle and wallow in the victory of her conquest and engage in carnal play to their hearts' delight. Together.

I've not seen anything in your thread that even remotely suggests your WW was in some fucked up way acting under a belief that she was carrying out a cuckold fantasy that she thought you wanted. Mainly, if this was true, if she thought it would make you happy and turned on, she would have shared the fact of it with you, more or less IRT. In reality she hid it from you, lied to you, sneaked around. You caught her and confronted her, and even then she trickle truth, bobbed and weaved, etc.

The cheating you describe is 100% run-of-the-mill garden variety cheating. Lying. Sexual humiliation. Trauma. You aren't wrong to feel these things, nor are you wrong to feel anger. You sexual history in no way gives her a pass for her behavior.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 5:59 PM, Monday, March 28th]

I didn't reach any conclusion, by jumping, inferring, or otherwise. Merely suggested a possibility. You do love to deflect and follow diversions. It's something I've noticed throughout this thread, in your responses to many posters. I wonder if this is just something you do here, or if it's part of your day-to-day communication style. Just saying.

I let this post marinate a bit before responding.

I suppose I have deflected a bit--I think overall I've been far more defensive in this thread than I've ever been. I attribute it to being highly vulnerable right now and offering myself up to others for judgement. But it's what I asked for, so I'm not upset by it. As for following diversions, that's certainly a character trait not unique to now--I can be argumentative, always looking to find the point of disagreement and focus there--missing the larger perspective.

IMO, the only part of the sexual history that is relevant to this thread is the reference to your WW's low self-esteem. Time and time again we find that cheaters are seeking ego kibbles from people who will pump up their self-esteem with saccharine words. It's one of if not the most common vectors to cheating. Low self esteem coupled with poor communication skills, all layered atop a shyte moral character in which lying, sneaking and cheating seems like a more logical way of assuaging low self-esteem than communicating with one's spouse, or seeking therapy.

I think you nailed it. That's who she is and what this all is. Now the question is, if in fact she's not a good person who made poor decisions, but instead a bad person who succumbed to her weakness, wtf am I doing? Because this is the truth: I can't tell the difference between who she was a year ago and who she is now--I never thought she was capable of any of the things she did. So how would I ever know if she's incapable of them in the future?

There's one part of the affair that has been sitting with me for the last few days--I can't shake it.

January 5. She woke up to his alarm around 5:50 a.m. She road him to mutual orgasms before he showered, they kissed a bit, and he left. Now it's 7~ a.m. or so and she's lying in bed naked on her phone in a hotel several miles from our house. She can't come home because I thought she was in another state, so she has to spend the entire morning alone in the hotel room to maintain her cover story.

There was an ice storm that morning in the northeast U.S. The roads were a sheet of ice and it was sleeting outside. At 7:40 a.m. I went with my son to the bus stop--we couldn't walk on the road because it was so slippery, so we walked over neighbors lawns to get to the corner. We waited there with all the other parents and children, but the bus never came. It was 8:10 a.m. or so when all the parents decided to give up because the bus wasn't coming.

I texted my wife, who handled the bus sign-up for my son for the school year. I told her the bus didn't come and asked if there was someone I could call to get information on if it was coming at a later point.

She told me the person's name, so I asked for her number. She replied that she would call herself.

She then texted her mother--part of the texts I read last week in the post-D-Day madness. Her mother knew where she was (my wife told her mom she as at the hotel with the guy in the interest of safety; she wanted someone to know where she was). My wife told her mom how inept I was at handling anything and that she had to do it. Her mom replied with one of those laughing/crying emojis. My wife replied with: "I mean, can't he just google it to find the number??" Again, another laughing/crying emoji from her mom.

At the time of the texts, her husband and son had been standing out in an ice storm for 30 minutes in 20 degree temperatures.

And I get it, I understand the psychology; she felt horribly guilty for what she did and was trashing me to help justify it. Fine.

But on a human level, I can't get passed it. She did not have any love for me--only contempt--and in that moment she was morally bankrupt.

That's the woman I married. That's who she is. So I sit here now and a part of me thinks I'd have to be insane to just cross my fingers and hope she changes. How will I never know she's different? She could continue to smile to my face and be downright evil behind my back and how would I know?

You’ll know through first, her work in IC. She should absolutely discuss with you what she is working on in IC and all the self reflection that comes with it, all of which she needs to verbalize to you.

Then, after she makes satisfactory progress in IC, you both should go to MC. In MC you should discuss the exact issue you just brought up.

In fact, you should talk to your WW about what you just said. Gauge her response. Tell her that you expect that this gets discussed in IC and that you expect an answer once she figures out the answer.

And I get it, I understand the psychology; she felt horribly guilty for what she did and was trashing me to help justify it. Fine.

I'm not really sure for that one.

Let's imagine : you are in a hostel, your AP is just leaving. If you're feeling horribly guilty at that moment, in no case you're going to INITIATE a conversation with your mother to trash talk the person for who you feel guilty. That's a non sense. Do you really believe she felt guilty at that moment, or is it what you want to believe?

My opinion: at that moment she didn't feel any guilt. Maybe she was proud of it, no? She was so proud for doing it that she added insult to humiliation.

I have known a woman who felt guilty during the A, and there wasn't any conversation in which she trash talked her husband. Her first reaction when her husband learned everything has been crying and hiding in her bed. In your case, you said that your wife's first reaction has been provocative, right? Guilt came after.

Nb: her mother really needs to be out of your life, forever.

[This message edited by jujuchrist at 7:57 PM, Monday, March 28th]

In my first post I stated:

Your marriage is over, the only question is whether you want to build a new one with the woman you know now that cheated on you. Maybe you do. Maybe you don't. Takes time to figure out if both of you are capable of this. It's extremely hard for the BS, and hard in other ways for the WS to recover and repair.

Just thought it was worth repeating here.

Somewhere in this jumble of a conversation here there are some issues that are so glaring I’m not sure why you two haven’t fallen apart before this. You had no business being online with other women. That’s cheating. There’s no way around it you were taking your information, your interest, your time and your flirting to other women. You’re not married to them, they should not be on your radar. Your wife wandered off into the weeds with some of her crazy stuff. There’s no way to fix a marriage unless the two people in it are healthy. You need help with you, she needs help with her. Two different therapist for two different people. Marriage counseling will come only when the two of y’all can sift through and work through to a healthier relationship.
People on here are usually right on target. Your fantasies belong to you. People have fantasies all the time. When you bring it up here you take the conversation way away from the root of the problem. The two of you are not connecting with each other emotionally or sexually. Sex bonds to people together. All the gobbledygook that’s online about freedom and all that crap is just that, crap. We are designed to be couples because that’s the way children are raised. They are raised by parents and grandparents and aunts and uncle’s. When you subvert that you’re robbing families. It’s just that simple. Be a couple.

The mom knew from the beginning and initially stopped talking with my wife, but then clearly felt she had an obligation to support her and help.

DSL,

Your MIL may have been unsupportive initially. She may not even condone her today. But from what you have posted, it sure doesn't look like she was showing much discouragement. She sure as hell wasn't showing any empathy towards you.

I'm not trying to pile on. Your WW is obviously still close to her mother, and that is going to make the mountain that much higher to overcome if you try to reconcile. I think your MIL owes you a HUGE apology for her total dismissal of you as a person.....yet alone her son-in-law....during her daughter's affair.

“And I get it, I understand the psychology; she felt horribly guilty for what she did and was trashing me to help justify it.”

No, I don’t think this was trashing you out of guilt.

You interrupted her fantasy time with a mundane life problem. Her fantasy was to get away from the mundane and here you are intruding. She reacted with irritation manifested by contempt, “you are inept at handling these things”.

In honesty I have had a similar response to my W when she has contacted me when I’m doing something, say, out playing golf, and she calls with a question that she could find the answer to without calling, and I have said: “you could just google it” and be irritated in the moment, but that’s it.

What is more bothersome to me is if this is a sign of a more general sense of contempt she has for you. Does she constantly berate you or belittle you? Then there is a larger marital problem.

Also, her mother knows she has just been cheating on her husband in a hotel, and she is sending supportive emoji’s to her daughter manifesting contempt for you. I would have a very difficult time dealing with my MIL if she acted thus.

Just my thoughts.

Have you discussed this moment with your WW? What does she think about it. How does she view the person (herself) who said those awful things.

I think she struggles to have compassion for others. Would you say that is true? At least at that moment. Does she see how broken that was?