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In BC, it was estimated to be 2.6% of the medical workforce (not just doctors/nurses and not limited to hospital workers) that were put on unpaid leave when the vaccine mandate came into force in November.

Totally anecdotally, I have a friend who is on the executive of a major police force in the province and she advised that only 2 members of the entire force were refusing to get vaccinated (and would be put on unpaid leave).

So yeah, not insignificant but we're not talking large numbers here.

3071 healthcare workers in BC on unpaid leave. To put that in perspective, 2490 COVID deaths in BC.

[This message edited by Loukas at 1:36 AM, Wednesday, January 19th]

Our ED had 46 patients needing to be admitted today. There was no place to put them. When there is no place to put them the waiting room gets backed up. When the waiting room is backed up the ambulances can't unload.

90% of the patients admitted for covid at our hospital are unvaccinated.

This is impacting everybody.

What is the solution?

All of the precautions are to accomplish two things: avoid death and avoid overruns in hospitals so they can treat everyone who needs to be treated, COVID and non-COVID patients.

I'm thinking there is a middle ground. My daughter was headed to college in the midst of all this. She was coming off a year of no prom, no graduation, no play and so on. We had to make a decision between her deteriorating mental health and risk of COVID. Her university fortunately put in very strict measures for testing - all on campus are tested twice per week or they cannot remain on campus. It worked. They never got above 8 in a month other than one anomaly of 16. They did contact tracing and isolation. The first year on campus wasn't great (mostly remote classes) but it helped my daughter immensely. The second year much better as restrictions lifted and they refined their testing and contact tracing methodology to keep the 70,000 on campus folks relatively safe.

I'm not happy about the consequences of this pandemic. I never thought we'd beat the virus - but what I hoped and wanted was for the majority of folks to have a chance while we understood better how to scientifically manage this new strain of COVID.

Isn't that reasonable?

RE: sunlight, mouthwash - let's be clear if this worked we wouldn't have a pandemic. It may help, but we are really arrogant to think we can beat this virus. We can do things to reduce its impact up to and including vaccines, isolating, testing.

To vaccinate or not. I understand both sides of the argument. Some folks just do not want to put these types of chemicals in their bodies and don’t feel they should be forced to do so.

That’s weighed against proven science that the vaccine can help stem the severity or prevent getting the virus in the first case. Certainly it’s not foolproof as nothing in life ever is but it has been proven to work.

Where you lose me are those folks who steadfastly refuse to put a mask on. We’ve all seen the stories on the news of violent confrontations over being asked to wear a mask. IMO, it’s the epitome of selfish behavior. Sure, wearing one sucks and it’s a little uncomfortable but really, is this such a major ask in the grand scheme of things?

It’s not meant to protect the wearer as much as it is for those around them. Perhaps someone’s 80 year old father or that kid across the way who has a compromised immune system. It’s staggering that some folks are so "all about them and tough shit on everyone else".

The other thing that drives me absolutely bonkers are the fake medical/religious exemptions for vaccination and masking. I'll see people in social media offering to provide information on which doctors hand out waivers like Halloween candy ("Girl, hit me up in PMs, they don't even ask why you want it!"). And then those exact same people will get all outraged by laws that hold doctors accountable for documenting their exemptions. ("It's offensive to imply that anyone would fake a medical need! Who would do that?") They're blatantly lying and gaslighting, and it's very hard to have a respectful conversation in those circumstances.

Just to be clear, I'm talking about people on social media news feeds, not anyone here. It's just that this is part of why things have gotten so polarized for me IRL.

ff,

That. Exactly that. I can understand and empathize to a certain extent with vaccine hesitancy. But all of the outrage and rebellion about masks and distance just makes me crazy. It’s the single most disillusioning and discouraging phenomenon I’ve ever witnessed in my life. I have lost respect for so many people.

And the whole vaccine related “I don’t know what those chemicals are and what they might do to my body” argument loses me. Because we put chemicals in and on our bodies every single day. We slather creams and lotions to make our skin look better. Dubious claims to erase wrinkles and blemishes are the bar we set for those chemicals. Hell, people will intentionally buy products with placenta, urine, glandular extracts from ferrets… whatever, just make me look years younger. We brush our teeth with fluoride because scientists and dentists told us it would protect our teeth. Insect repellent, sunscreen, who really knows what’s in that?

So for vanity and feeling like good parents we trust science and the mainstream narrative. For a novel virus causing a 2 year global pandemic, not so much.

I'm thinking there is a middle ground.

I think this way too.

EVERYTHING that everyone on here has mentioned may be TRUE. EVERYTHING that everyone on here has mentioned may not be the WHOLE truth. We CAN find middle ground...and everyone CAN work together...IF they want to.

I watched in DEEP sadness as a mother MOURNED the death of her teenage son two weeks ago...writing about his suicide on social media . YES...Covid KILLS...but there are a lot more things that people DIE of in this world BESIDES a virus that nearly everyone SURVIVES with NO health risk afterward.

Some posters on here MOCK people like me because we are hesitant to take a vaccine that has caused friends or family members to have such a BAD reaction that they will never be the same again. I probably have the SAME chance of getting this adverse reaction IF I take the vaccine as those of you getting "long Covid" or dying IF you wouldn't have gotten the vaccine. Some of y'all didn't DARE risk that...but you mock people who have LEGITIMATE reasons for NOT taking the vaccine. I don't think any of y'all who have done this even SEE the hypocrisy in your own words.

It is EASY to JUDGE people...some of you do it quite readily. There ARE selfish people in this world...we wouldn't be on this site if there weren't. But there ARE people who are hesitant to take this vaccine for MANY reasons that are NOT selfish. There are also people who have been vaccinated that wonder if there is something else they can do to FIGHT this virus and not overwhelm the hospitals. It is THESE people that I am reaching out to. If there is SOMETHING...ANYTHING that can HELP to FIGHT this virus...I would think this would be something we ALL could rally around.

I need to go shopping now...with my 70% ISOPROPYL ALCOHOL laden wet wipes by my side. I will grab a shopping cart that has been out in the SUNLIGHT. When I get home from shopping I will WASH my hands. Then I will gargle with my ANTIVIRAL MOUTHWASH. And then I will go about my business . I have learned a few things by this thread...and I pray that others have too. Knowledge is POWER !!

I want to thank those of y'all who have contributed to this thread...respectfully...with valid points. Talking things through HELPS people to understand ALL sides .

With all due respect, I want to be sure we never brush over the suffering of those who have lost loved ones to COVID.

YES...Covid KILLS...but there are a lot more things that people DIE of in this world BESIDES a virus that nearly everyone SURVIVES with NO health risk afterward.

Just because there are more things people die from, doesn't mean we shouldn't pay attention to COVID. I feel for the people who have been through the painful process of watching a loved one die AND not being able to be there in their last moments on this earth.

And to be clear, there are folks who have massive side effects from COVID - scarring in the lungs or permanent loss of smell/taste or pain and numbness in their body. These folks do suffer even today.

As a society we pay attention to a lot of medical conditions and impact from a variety viruses. Think Polio...

I'm not sure from where the anger emanates over paying attention to a virus that has caused a pandemic.

[This message edited by ISurvivedSoFar at 3:14 PM, Wednesday, January 19th]

Some posters on here MOCK people like me because we are hesitant to take a vaccine that has caused friends or family members to have such a BAD reaction that they will never be the same again. I probably have the SAME chance of getting this adverse reaction IF I take the vaccine as those of you getting "long Covid" or dying IF you wouldn't have gotten the vaccine. Some of y'all didn't DARE risk that...but you mock people who have LEGITIMATE reasons for NOT taking the vaccine. I don't think any of y'all who have done this even SEE the hypocrisy in your own words.

I'm not sure if I'm included in that group mentioned. If so, I'd just like to respectfully clarify my position that I alluded to in my previous post. I absolutely do understand vaccine hesitancy in your situation. 100%. I do not understand nor do I respect vaccine hesitancy from people who pick and choose what medical recommendations they want to follow. I do not understand or respect someone with no other reason to refuse than "You're not gonna tell me what to do."

Finally, when you refer to "long Covid" in quotes, know that you are doing the same thing you are complaining about. Pot. Kettle.

Want2B, I think we all understand that there is a small percentage of people who can't get the vaccine. I don't think anybody would expect them to get vaccinated or judge/mock them.

Omnicron is very different then previous strains for kids. My wife has a classroom of 12-18 kids 18 months to 3 years. They've been back in person since June of 2020 without issues which is surprising as few of them masked or vaccinated (CDC doesn't recommend masks for children less than 2 years old ). Through the previous peaks they've never had a kid test positive. The only kids quarantined were for parent or older sibling positives. That is until Jan 7th of this year when they had a kid test positive in one of the other early childhood classrooms. Wednesday morning of last week one of her parents tested positive in the morning. That parents child, who actually was one of the kids who religiously masked at school, woke up from nap with a fever and has since tested positive. Wife was off work Friday till today, non-related, but tested negative last night. The teacher who shares bathrooms with her classroom tested positive last night. Fun.

Data from the state. Since 1.1.2021
Hospitalizations Not fully vaxed 54k vs fully vaxed 3.2k.
Deaths Not fully vaxed 16k vs fully vaxed 761.
Note: I do not like the start date on that as the vaccine was available to all groups until April 2021 Unfortunately vaccination status isn't a field on the data I can download. I'd love to do a comparison using properly scoped data and by time ranges to fully illustrate how effective being fully vaccinated is versus not fully vaccinated over time.

Overall only 55% of the populations is fully vaxed. The most vulnerable groups of 65+ are all 80+% fully vaxed. 25% of 0-19, 49% of 20-29, 56% 0f 30-39, 62% of 40-49, 68% of 50-59, 77% of 60-64. There's been enough additional doses to boost about 25% of the states populations.
Looking at regional (my corner of state) the current spike has the 20-29 at 431 per 100k, 30-39 at 369 per 100k, 40-49 at 324 per 100k, 50-59 at 255 per 100k, 0-19 at 253 per 100k, 60-69 at 199 per 100k, 70-79 at 161 per 100k and 80+ at 141 per 100k. That is the incident % of covid per 100k population for all but 0-19 is proportional to the % unvaxed.

Taken from. BBC article;

Clare's GP said he'd never come across her condition before. Frightened and bewildered, she turned to the internet for answers and found a Facebook group with 6,000 members set up by the smell loss charity, AbScent.

Nearly all had started with anosmia arising from Covid-19, and ended up with parosmia.

"Common descriptors of the different parosmia smells include: death, decay, rotten meat, faeces," says AbScent founder Chrissi Kelly, who set up the Facebook group in June after what she describes as a "tidal wave" of Covid-19 parosmia cases.

People have used phrases like "fruity sewage", "hot soggy garbage" and "rancid wet dog".

Often they struggle to describe the smell because it's unlike anything they've encountered before, and choose words that convey their disgust instead.

Around 65% of people with coronavirus lose their sense of smell and taste and it's estimated that about 10% of those go on to develop a "qualitative olfactory dysfunction", meaning parosmia or a rarer condition, phantosmia, when you smell something that isn't there.

If this is correct, up to 6.5 million of the 100 million who have had Covid-19 worldwide may now be experiencing long-covid parosmia.

To say:

BESIDES a virus that nearly everyone SURVIVES with NO health risk afterward.

Is simply being dismissive of the millions of people suffering with the after effects of covid.

I watched an interview with three people suffering from parosmia. All of them expressed how their quality of life has been affected. One went so far as to say, after a year of suffering, he would have preferred covid killed him.

There are also people who have been vaccinated that wonder if there is something else they can do to FIGHT this virus and not overwhelm the hospitals. It is THESE people that I am reaching out to. If there is SOMETHING...ANYTHING that can HELP to FIGHT this virus...I would think this would be something we ALL could rally around.

WASH your hands. WEAR a mask. PRACTICE social distancing. These three simple and easy things are proven to help fight this virus. And those three things a lot of people seem very unwilling to do, even though they cost nothing and have no long-term side effects.

If you're not getting the vaccine for a medically valid reason, totally fine. But that is all the more reason why I DID get vaccinated - it is to protect ME, but it is also to protect those amongst our population who medically cannot get vaccinated.

And full disclosure, I absolutely DO judge those that don't get vaccinated when they ARE medically able to do so because of fake 'religious exemptions' or 'freedom' or 'I don't know what chemicals are in it' (as they are getting butt implants and cheek fillers and botox). Yeah, I am unapologetically full-on Judgy McJudgerson about people like that.

You know in WWII, there were people who were devastated that they weren't medically able to get drafted for military service. Everyone gladly participated in rationing and going without to support a just cause. Wives like my grandmother had military chaplains and SO's showing up at their door with telegrams about their husbands being wounded/killed in active duty and still supported our country and the war effort. I shudder to think what my purple-heart-awarded grandfather would have to say about these able-bodied folks refusing to get the vaccines, but I am sure it would be both ornery and hilarious.

Please - wash your hands. Wear a mask. And stay home if you can. I just don't see how those are tough asks at this point.

I watched in DEEP sadness as a mother MOURNED the death of her teenage son two weeks ago...writing about his suicide on social media crying . YES...Covid KILLS...but there are a lot more things that people DIE of in this world BESIDES a virus that nearly everyone SURVIVES with NO health risk afterward.

So it's overblown in your mind? Because someone can die of other things, we should not be worried about COVID?

Some posters on here MOCK people like me because we are hesitant to take a vaccine that has caused friends or family members to have such a BAD reaction that they will never be the same again. I probably have the SAME chance of getting this adverse reaction IF I take the vaccine as those of you getting "long Covid" or dying IF you wouldn't have gotten the vaccine. Some of y'all didn't DARE risk that...but you mock people who have LEGITIMATE reasons for NOT taking the vaccine. I don't think any of y'all who have done this even SEE the hypocrisy in your own words.

Who has mocked people who can't get the vaccine for medical reasons? Actual medical reasons, not "religious exemption" while they sit there vaccinated against everything else on earth. Not "I don't know what's in it" while they don't know what's in anything else they use or eat. Not "some podcaster said microchips" or something. We're mocking the ones who won't get the vaccine for irrational reasons and thereby putting people like you at risk. We are frustrated on your behalf.

BTW, that 'stay home if you're sick' recommendation is impossible for some of the workers who meet the most people.

Many workers (probably a large majority) in retail and hospitality have no or poor sick leave benefits, so they go to work if they can possibly get there. And they spread colds, flu, and any other infectious disease they carry into their workplace. But no work, no pay.

That's aside from the asymptomatic people. That's aside from kids spreading diseases to other kids and to adults at school.

Lockdowns cause damage. My bet is that they cause less damage than not locking down would have caused.

The GBD looks a better on paper than it does in the real world.

I'd love to do a comparison using properly scoped data and by time ranges to fully illustrate how effective being fully vaccinated is versus not fully vaccinated over time.

As would I, grubs. An example, my Dad is in the at risk group. 65+ but healthy enough. When the vaccines rolled out last year for his age group, he was hesitant to say the least. He’s been down a few conspiracy rabbit holes my whole life but fortunately reason can usually prevail. In this case he was concerned about COVID but also didn’t trust the vaccines. The Canadian epidemiology reports have some great statistics on it, with their aide I was able to show him where he placed in the at risk groups. How much more at risk he was compared the rest of the population. Not that he didn’t know before hand, but seeing the numbers sure helped reinforce it.

Of course next came which vaccine to get…Which turned out to be a bit of a nightmare in itself. Because at that time we were running low on Pfizer and Moderna, and AstraZeneca was being pushed, but that was the same time the blood clots were appearing. However the blood clots were appearing in women 30-50, so our government decided to use AstraZeneca for the older population as a safety precaution. "Sure, the vaccine is killing off people so let’s give it our pensioners so they don’t collect their money instead." Was the response I got from him… I had to chuckle. But after reviewing current data and weighing the risks, I was able to convince him to get a shot and that happened to be AstraZeneca. Yay! The next day the government pulled AstraZeneca to review it further because of more blood clots. Obviously a good thing, but man did I hear about it.

Shortly after our government adopted one shot in all is better than two in those at risk. Second shots were moved from three weeks apart to two months. Twenty year old family members were getting shots before my dad could get his second. The old man had things to say about that. Then our government decided to start cocktails, to get vaccines in peoples arms. More confusion, more data to sort through, some experts saying they shouldn’t be mixed, some saying they can, some talking about reduced efficacy. I really didn’t think I was going to be able to talk him into the second shot. But we sat down and worked through available data at the time and it was still in his favour. He got his second shot, Moderna.

Talk about vaccine passports comes out, different governments are talking about not recognizing mixed vaccines as fully vaxxed. Fuck me, if I didn’t hear about that…

Sorry for the long rant, but it just an example of how tough it can be to convince someone to get the vaccine. And that was in someone in the at risk group.

The bigger point to this whole diatribe would be this. Having the stats are very helpful when talking to unvaccinated. Imagine how helpful complete stats would be. I was rather upset when my government decided to quit showing current hospitalization vaxxed and not. It was a tool we could use. "The numbers weren’t showing the message they wanted to convey" great so now those who already had mistrust have just had it reinforced. Things like I pointed out earlier in the thread where the government front loaded numbers, why? It’s just another reason for mistrust. I’d absolutely love to have numbers available broken down by age group, vaxxed, unvaxxed, cases, hospitalizations, icu, weekly, monthly… They’ve shown they are capable of providing this. Just not reliably. But what a great tool it could be. Could it be damaging, possibly, the alternative?

Saying trust the science just isn’t going to cut it for those who have mistrust. Brow beating and shaming is only going to reinforce their conviction. I’m mean hell, our leader went on tv and decided to call the unvaxxed racists and misogynists (not a political comment, please don’t make it one), what the fuck do you think you’d accomplish with that statement beside more reinforcement and more division.

Anyway, once again, long, sorry, food for thought.

YES...Covid KILLS...but there are a lot more things that people DIE of in this world BESIDES a virus that nearly everyone SURVIVES with NO health risk afterward.

I'm really shocked by this statement and practically offended, though I'm sure that was not your intent. I strongly disagree with downplaying the health risks post-Covid. So does my Physician. And the CDC and the medical community in general. Covid comes with downstream health risks that we are just beginning to understand. I fear the toll will be IMMENSE. How many and whether or not it is genetic or viral load related or something we don't yet see, who knows, but there will be a public health toll and there will be more suffering for years to come.

First the anecdotal: I know nurses, young and healthy who got covid and have never regained their energy or the ability to hike or run a year later. A YEAR! I know formerly active healthy elderly people who are in PT a year later for balance and gait problems and lingering headaches and weakness that appeared after infection. I have previously mentioned the outrage from my family physician who is knee deep in patients who survived covid but suffer lingering, SERIOUS, downstream health concerns, autoimmune and inflammatory response problems, lung damage, heart issues.... My pediactric nurse friends have seen plenty of kids gravely ill with Covid, many with the Multisystem inflammatory syndrome that follows Covid and can be deadly. They are learning how to fight it better, but we don't know what the lingering damage might be to the body, since covid loves to invade all our organs and our fat cells too. We already know that SARS viruses can cause lung scarring, so expect the Covid-19 version and its minions to take a similar toll... I worry we will have years of millions of lives hampered by lung damage downstream. We barely know what we don't know.

Next the data: The CDC has lots of information on long term covid symptoms, there are many scholarly, medical articles, one a meta analysis and review of all the studies collated so far. There are 50 known lingering effects of covid infection. The most common are headache, fatigue, dizziness, shortness of breath, brain fog. The scariest are the 34% who present with abnormal chest Xray or CT scans and reduced pulmonary capacity, or the 20% with abnormal blot clotting tests (D-dimer) or the 11% that have elevated NT-proBNP indicating heart failure or the 8% with elevated C-reactive proteins indicating severe inflammatory response. There's already a lot to worry about post Covid. I try not to read too much about this aspect of the virus because it terrifies me, and I'm tired of living scared. I focus on hiding from infection and hope to not have to navigate any long term complications.

I am one of the FEW people left I know who has not contracted COVID. My life has been on hold. I already have chronic pain and immunity issues, but I am NOT afraid of dying of covid, but of suffering from its after effect downstream for what is left of my life. I am also PETRIFIED of infecting my mother and brother who are barely surviving their diabetes, COPD, heart issues and cancer. The most fragile among us are paying a high toll.

I fear that the human and financial damage will continue years after we figure this virus out. I worry that both my young adult children who have had Covid twice, will have an added health risk on their plates to manage as they age. It is too soon to have the best data on the very long term affects, but we already swimming in data on the situation one year downstream and it is not happy fuzzy news AT ALL.

Want2B - You have indicated that your rationale for not getting vaccinated is that friends or family of yours have had a severe reaction to the vaccine. You have stopped short at suggesting that your doctor has advised YOU against getting the vaccine for medical reasons. I assume you would have mentioned that if that were the case. I don't see anyone mocking anyone for anything here. No one is suggesting medical exemptions are invalid.

Here's the thing though, knowing someone who has had a severe reaction does not change the odds. It doesn't make you any more likely to have the reaction yourself. Just the same way that knowing someone who has been hit by lightening doesn't change the odds of you being hit by lightening yourself. Having a personal connection might make it FEEL more real, more risky perhaps - and I totally get that - but feelings aren't facts. The numbers are the numbers regardless of how you feel. So when you say, I have chosen not to get vaccinated because I know someone who had a severe reaction, you are not actually justifying your decision - you are only justifying your fear.

3071 healthcare workers in BC on unpaid leave. To put that in perspective, 2490 COVID deaths in BC.

What do you suggest would be an appropriate tradeoff?

Yeah, that is the stuff I'm worried about. Odds are I'd survive COVID, but I do have an interest in having a quality of life afterwards. I don't want to get it, period. I'm also one of the few I know who hasn't had it yet and I'm continuing to try not to get it.