SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

WH still starts in on me with conversations about what I did wrong, how it didn't have to be this way, etc. Today he says "why does this have to be a problem for you?" I told him it's not a problem, it's a boundary and his behavior is unacceptable. Then he says "you don't have boundaries with me!" Just wow. He really believes he should just be able to do what he wants when he wants to and I should just be ok with it. No wonder this D is so difficult.

He’s a special one. Shields up and keep moving forward.

And hang in there. The end is in sight.

Ya and "wow" doesn't really express the really low-life perspective of how to treat other people - especially a wife (spouse)

Then he says "you don't have boundaries with me!"

I would suggest you point him at a book about boundaries - or maybe "Not Just Friends" in which boundaries are discussed."

Anyone without boundaries is a loose cannon that will blow away anyone when they take any kind of notion.

His comment to you - disgusting!

I hope you have plan to put, at a minimum, a large hill or fast moving stream between you and him. Probably/likely permanently.

Wish you well for the Holidays!

I tried to get him to read Not Just Friends but he said it was crap. What makes them an expert? Hence why R is impossible. He still thinks I need to make the effort not him.

And I agree Hippo16. A person without boundaries is selfish and entitled and cares not about anyone else. Now I see the error of my ways when I didn't enforce my boundaries during our relationship. I thought I was being considerate by giving him time to get used to my boundaries but all that did is tell him I'm a chump and he can get away with anything he wants. Live and learn.

I think you need to focus on your username. There are better times ahead, but to reach them you need to wade in the mire your husband is creating. The key is to focus on the light ahead and to keep on walking.
He’s trying to impact you. His refusal to let your son go with you to the family Thanksgiving, the argument about boundaries… You could turn on the light in a dark room and he would complain, only to complain even more if you turned it back off. It’s not what you do that irks him – it’s you. He finds fault in everything you do because it’s so much easier than trying to find fault in himself.

Look – you two are divorcing. Divorce isn’t an alternative form of marriage. It’s the termination of a relationship. With a 16 year old kid then chances are you won’t really grow into great co-parents, but hopefully can tend to your son’s needs in an amicable and acceptable form. I certainly hope that if he graduates you two can sit in the same area, that if he marries the main-issue won’t be if mom and dad can be in the same banquet. I would hope that 2 years past your divorce you will be OK with whatever woman he might be dating, just like he’s not getting involved with any man you might be dating.

Frankly – Whenever your husband starts on about what you did wrong… Don’t respond. Well… at least not in the way he expects. You simply tell him that this discussion might be relevant if you two were working at reconciling the marriage, but since you are focused on divorce then it doesn’t serve any purpose to go there. And then walk away. Don’t participate in arguments because you have decided your course.

Its basically the same advice I offered on the son and holiday issue: He refuses to allow you to take son to the family then don’t partake in that argument.
EITHER get your attorney to tell you that you CAN take your son if he wants to go.
OR
You just go without him.

What you don’t do is argue with your husband about it because his goal is NOT your son’s interest but how to cause you pain.

That’s one of the consequences of divorce. There will be times where you wont have your son with you, just like there will be times when your husband won’t have his son with him. Won’t harm your son (although it possibly can harm your son’s relationship with his dad – but that just confirms what I said that it’s all about causing you pain).

Bigger is spot on.

Stop engaging in his "discussions" that are basically nothing more than him telling you everything you have ever done in your marriage is wrong. Stop allowing him to blame you for the D.

Shut him down. Maybe no contact needs to be part of your D requirements.

One good thing about responses like his, they validate that the decision to divorce is the correct one. You really have nothing to work with here.

What a narcissistic ass. You do know his true goal, every single minute of every single day?

To take his narcissistic misery out on you. To do this he will:

Blame you

Shame you

Deny you everything

Obstruct

Argue

Lie

And when you are upset, he smiles inside. THAT is what he enjoys--transferring his misery to you.

Have you read the book Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Boderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder?

Your only sanity is to Gray Rock him every step of the way. If you want to win in this game (his game, you have no choice) where the prize is your SANITY, then your goal is to never, ever, EVER engage with a word he says:

Non-answers

No emotion

Short, one word

Like you are barely listening

Then walk away

To the guest room, your own space

Detached completely from his thoughts and feelings on anything

I've used this. It truly works. But it was HARD for me because my FOO wanted to win him over, be logical, convince him. If someone else's goal is to simply upset you and your desires through any means possible, then logic and reason stand NO chance. Give them up. Let go.

Just let go.

Gray Rock.

Then watch him go crazy in frustration over his inability to push your buttons.

Just let go of convincing him.

Of anything.

Gray Rock only.

Best, best, best wishes to you.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 3:23 PM, Sunday, November 28th]

My ex WH was very much into the blame shifting. It’s been 4 years since I filed and more than 2 years since the divorce was finalized and yet he still tells the kids that I spent their college money on divorcing him. It’s not at all true, but he likes to be the victim. I’ve since remarried and I understand he’s been seeing someone for a while. I feel sorry for her. But the venom he still spouts is astounding. You may never get to that point of coparenting but your son will have more of a voice as time goes on and they see through the crap.

Thank you all for sharing your stories and for the advice. I am trying grey rock but it is difficult with my son here.

So, needless to say, this holiday was a total sh*tshow. He thought he would drive up with me. I told him no I am not going to be stuck in a car with him for 5-6 hours not to mention he won't have a car when he gets there. He said he'd rent one - what is the reasoning behind that? He chose a hotel 17 miles away from my brother's, so 2-3 times per day I was driving 34 miles round trip to drop off or pick up my son. I am more than happy to spend time with my son doing anything, but this robbed us of a lot of fun time we could have had with my family. My son spent 2 out of the 3 nights at the hotel instead of with his family, and the one night he spent with my WH was incessantly texting and calling. On a trip that was supposed to be for me and my son, my son spent more time with his father than me - a lot more. My son was supposed to drive up with WH and back with me, but said he was driving back with WH because if he didn't his father would cause problems. So I told WH I'd leave at noon to meet up with him. At 12:08 he asked if we left and I told him my son was in the bathroom and we'd leave when he was done. So WH says I lied to him and didn't keep my word. I told him I didn't want my 16 year old son pooping his pants in the car so if you want to say I lied, so be it. About an hour into our trip home, WH rearended me on the interstate. There was traffic, and everyone else including myself somehow managed to stop or swerve so as not to hit anyone but not him. And of course it wasn't his fault - I stopped short (well there was traffic and everyone stopped), I cut over four lanes at the last minute, etc. Caused over $8k in damage. Then asks why I reported it to insurance. Seriously? Not paying for that out of pocket. He just spent all kinds of money to go on this trip (including a couple of expensive dinners with my son) and, without discussing it with me, bought our son a $1k electric guitar for Christmas. We had discussed a much lower budget - he's only been playing about four months - and we were supposed to decide together.

My attorney tried to get his attorney to reason with him before we left, but WH just avoided any phone calls from his attorney. What should have been a truly enjoyable getaway from all this crap was ruined by WH. My attorney says he's never seen anything crazier that this. And the sad part is this is my life every day.

I was curious why your STBXWH accompanied you on the trip? Is it because you don't have a custody agreement in place yet?

Your STBXWH is showing you more evidence of how selfish he is. Everything revolves around him. Good luck in the D, it sounds like it won't be easy.

I hope your son is doing alright. Sounds like he is feeling pressure from his father, which is very unfortunate. He shouldn't put his son in the middle like that.

Tigers, there is no custody agreement in place yet. I filed early September and WH won't even move out of the house. I had hoped he would act like an adult and let me have this holiday but he said if I thought I was taking his son away for Thanksgiving I was mistaken. He thinks everything should stay the same until the D is final but that can't happen. I couldn't stop him from going up there and I didn't want to put my son in the middle so I was more than fair but of course WH doesn't see it this way. I am trying to get something worked out before Christmas gets here because I can't do this again.

In other words:
You didn't follow the advice offered here...

Its basically the same advice I offered on the son and holiday issue: He refuses to allow you to take son to the family then don’t partake in that argument.
EITHER get your attorney to tell you that you CAN take your son if he wants to go.
OR
You just go without him.

My attorney did tell me I could take my son. But that wouldn't stop WH from causing a scene and showing up anyway. WH's attorney called several times to discuss it with him but he never took the calls. He was going to do whatever he wanted no matter what.

"You can't see the forest for the trees." Basically, you can't see how much you feed into his shit show because you're in the thick of it. Every time you allow him to get to you, it's an ego kibble. It shows him he has power over you. And you better believe he's enjoying that shit. You could have dealt with this by coming to an agreement that you get Thanksgiving and he gets Christmas, or vice versa. After that, only take your son on your agreed upon time. This could have been accomplished by having your attorney just draft a simple agreement. If he didn't agree to it, use that in court to show how combative and uncooperative he is being. If you agreed to Thanksgiving, don't worry about what he does. If he shows up at your family's home, you call the police and have him arrested for trespassing and harassment. Simple. I would never have split up the holiday like that. Whether you realize it or not, you made that choice to split up that time. You could have said no or you could have left your son home.

I haven't been on SI in a while, but your post resonated with me because I did the same thing. I was letting my ex manipulate me and then coming on here and venting about it. I had to learn to just completely let go of any outcome he initiated. That was THE hardest lesson for me to learn. But once I got it, I got it. He'd call me a crazy bitch. I'd just look at him like I didn't understand and walk away. No engaging. He'd call me at 3 in the morning screaming and cussing at me calling me worthless, etc. I just hung up and turned my phone off. He'd show up very late at night and demand to be let in the house so he could get his things. I let him know I was calling the police.

Learn to ignore him, walk away, leave for a while, or say "I'm sorry you feel that way", and nothing else. That last one only if absolutely necessary. Again, you want to keep it to minimal interaction.

There may come times when you really have zero other option but to engage in his stupid, but this wasn't that time. Refuse to drive more than 20 minutes for drop offs when he has a choice. YOU tell him where to meet up and when, just make sure you are there. But then you have to stick to it too. He was right, you should have gotten up and did everything, including use the bathroom and still showed up on time...unless your son got sick and had diarrhea, that's different. But if it wasn't an absolute emergency, don't give him stupid crap as ammunition to use against you.

You can only control how you react to him. Set boundaries.

Use the fact that there is no legal agreement in place to your advantage.

A drafted letter from your attorney, or even an email stating, not asking, when you get your son and when he gets him.

Dear asshat, I have been invited to go to family's home with son. I intend to take him with me for Thanksgiving and you van have your time on Christmas day. We will be leaving on ?date and ?time and returning on...

If he starts arguing about splitting the time, IN SOME FORM OF WRITING, you tell him that's not what is best for your son. Also in writing, you then tell him that since he prefers Thanksgiving, you will be exercising your time on Christmas day, or you flat out refuse. I would have told his ass to F off and pound sand if he'd started up with some shit about splitting the time. But that's me.

[This message edited by StillLivin at 1:50 AM, Saturday, December 4th]

StillLivin I hear you. Everyone who responded I hear you. What is most difficult is he still lives with me. He won't leave as he says he pays for everything. So my son is witness to all this nonsense. I can't turn off my phone because he is right here. All the time. I don't want to put my son through anything unnecessary as he has had a really tough year and i don't want to make it worse. My attorney is working on something now that should be in place by Christmas and if WH won't come to an agreement, the court will make the decision.

I know he wins way too often but if you knew what my son has been through you would never want to put him in the middle. In fact, his last incident he says was partly caused by WH putting him in the middle (and he did not validate my son's feelings or offer an apology) and that I did the same to a lesser degree. I was on my knees sobbing asking my son's forgiveness telling him I will do better.

I am hoping my attorney is as good as I hear and he can take control of this. I do my best to detach but my son's health and well being come first.

and that I did the same to a lesser degree.

I do my best to detach but my son's health and well being come first.

Am I missing something? Isn't your son also asking you to detach? Isn't he telling you that your inability to detach is harming his well being?

It seems (from here, so I could be wrong) that you are confusing "winning against WS because I know what my son needs" with detaching. Winning is not detaching; trying to win is continuous engagement. Your son is asking you to stop.

I genuinely feel for you because enmeshment often does not feel that way to the people involved. I've experienced the powerful emotions that course through your body. It is so hard not to argue, not to escalate, to avoid standing up for what's right. But that is all engagement, and that is what your own son is asking you to stop. Detachment is quiet, confident, and assertive.

Do you have your own space in the house with a new lock on the door? You must find a way to remove your H's attempts at control, ways that involve action and not conversation. There is no asking him.

I am confused about Christmas? Are you trying to take your son away for the holiday? And then what holiday does your WS get in return? You do need to split holidays for now and one more year. Your son can go wherever he wants when he is 18. Some things to avoid:

1. Discussions with WS. He can send an email.
2. Listening to your WS. Get a lock for your door and a microwave in your bedroom. Your son can come in there to visit you.
3. Be ready and willing to call the police if your WS gets loud.
4. Do you have a VAR going when home? Cameras? You should record his behavior.
5. Keep a journal of his antics.
6. Give your attorney all documentation.
7. No more driving and dropping your son. Find a meeting point and then be there.
8. No responding to your WS's behavior. At all. It is not your job to change your behavior to appease your out of control WS. His emotions are not your responsibility. Call. The. Cops.

Is your son in IC? Are you? Just checking that you both have solid outside support.

Once you disengage and detach, you will see how much power you have. Over yourself.

Thank you for your post OIN. WH had spoken of taking my son to CA for Christmas but after how he ruined Thanksgiving, that is not happening. I see a battle coming. My attorney says one of us gets the Eve and the other the day but I'm fairly certain that even if WH doesn't go to CA he will expect to take part in all aspects of the holiday. As for my son, I do try not to put him in the middle but there is also something to be said for him seeing his mother be strong and defend herself. It's a tightrope. We are both in IC and thankfully he is doing better than he was one year ago but he is still healing. There is still the possibility of relapse and that frightens me so I try to keep the peace.

Did I mention that after the collision WH caused my car is now totaled? Yep I just got it a year ago and now I have to shop all over again, do all the insurance and bank and motor vehicle paperwork to get rid of the old and get the new and I have no idea if WH is going to give me a problem with it. I know he's going to want to keep the money to pay bills and think I can go without a new car (my back-up is 20 years old - it moves but I don't know how reliable it is). If he fights me on it then I have to get my attorney involved which costs more money. Unfortunately he still lives here and he makes the money - he holds it over my head. So I try to make nice so I can get what I want and need. That will change once we get to a sit down and I see where I stand, and my attorney will file whatever he needs to in order to protect me financially and otherwise. WH is supposed to have his paperwork to his attorney by tomorrow and then we get the sit down. If he doesn't, then we have to go to court.

Your attorney needs to file for emergency orders. That's why the proviso exists.

You need to have the holiday clarified, at least for this year.
You need to have the car situation clarified so you can replace the car
You need to have exclusive use of the house because this is damaging to your mental health to have it otherwise
You need to have a reliable and dependable parenting schedule so that your son has some stability
Your parenting plan needs to specifically state that neither parent will interfere with the other parent's parenting time, and perhaps even spell out what that means.

Enough is enough. Your attorney should have filed for emergency orders the week after Thanksgiving.

Cat

Thank you for the advice Cat. I have made it clear to my attorney that a parenting plan must be in place before the holidays. If that means emergency then that's what we'll do.

I worry because WH plays on my son's sympathies and makes me the bad guy. He buys him whatever he wants, lets him do what he wants and tells him how awful I am. If WH and I aren't living together, who would my son live with? I'm guessing he would choose WH since he has basically no rules. And he's 16 so I can't force him to really do anything. Even going for an emergency order would make me the bad guy. I lose in some way no matter what. I expected all this to get worse before it gets better but I really had no idea that he would stoop to this level.