SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

How much weight should someone who still loves their WS and wants to R give to the advice of someone who failed or didn't attempt it?

I believe this one question is revealing and part of why any threads about these topics typically run off the rails.

Part of the issue I've noticed surrounding these threads has to do with humanization and specifically de-humanization. S2F identified a generalization that I have seen tossed around SI a lot about the anti-R crowd. Or more appropriately, what other posters say is the anti-R crowd. Who is the anti-R crowd? Who posts here is anti-R under any and all circumstances? What I've personally seen is a loosely knit group of posters who post in a similar tone who frequently get pointed to as the anti-R crowd. Thumos is one of them. Thumos is NOT someone who failed R or never attempted. Thumos spent years pouring over R. Thumos has read countless books, articles, and even some tangibly related things like religious texts and philosophical texts that touch on the themes of infidelity. But if you're like S2F and you only stop by once in a while, you too will read a post from Thumos and label him as faceless anti-R poster #2576 who is clearly bitter, has failed or never attempted R, and probably hasn't spent more than 5 minutes researching it instead of the incredibly well-read and experienced poster he is. If R was based on how much a BS wanted it and not the reality of what the WS does/offers and what the BS can live with when basic R requirements may not be met, Thumos wouldn't need to post here. He would be off skipping through fields of flowers with his FWW and enjoying his shiny new marriage. But reality isn't like that and instead he's here, doing his best to hold on and salvage what little he can from this hellish situation she has handed him and refuses to rectify in a way that he can live with and heal from. His posts are just as valid and perhaps even more informed than most about R due to his experiences and the work he did for an R that isn't working through no fault of his own. He is one of many tough love posters who get labeled anti-R. Some of those other posters are IN successful Rs or had been for years until they chose not be!

I don't expect posters to know every single person who may be posting something that looks anti-R in their thread but I do think we can stop reducing others to "bitter and failed" just because we disagree with them. I think that we can at least hold ourselves to a standard of giving others the benefit of the doubt before writing them off as less-than. S2F, I understand that calling others failures probably isn't what you meant if R didn't work for them but I can also tell you that I've seen many a BS blame themselves here for a failed R even if the WS gave them a DDay mere weeks before they ended R and that is never on them. You may not have meant it but it strikes a chord with many who will feel it regardless of your intentions.

I liken this more to people giving advice to you on how to raise your child when they don’t have any children themselves.

WOEz, the funny thing about this similarity is that it's just as much of a generalization as what S2F said. You can be a child psychologist, have more experience working with children than most parents, and not have them yourselves thus making your advice more valuable than the average parent. You can also be a parent, have zero custody of your kids, or spend so little time with them that your advice would be worthless compared to the average person. While having kids vs not certainly lends to some credibility of the experience, it doesn't make your knowledge of children and best practices regarding them any better than average unless you take the time to hone that skill yourself. Likewise, how can a vet understand anything about dogs when they are not a dog? How can theoretical physicists correctly identify and test mathematical formulas that prove the existence of things they can't see like black holes? How can anyone with knowledge outside of their experience be taken seriously then? It doesn't make much sense just like writing off a poster as not being able to contribute value to a topic just because it isn't exactly like your situation doesn't make much sense either.

What I am saying, is that if a BS thinks that they might like to share this resource with their WS, why the automatic negative response? Just the very idea of a BS choosing to direct their WS to SI as a resource seems to elicit some pretty strong negative responses and I am wondering if it’s a knee jerk reaction based on people’s own experience rather than a thoughtful evaluation of the individual circumstances.

Honestly, I don't know. I don't think I've ever given advice one way or another on that. If I did discourage it for someone one day, I think it would be based on what they're telling me about their situation.

I think resources for WS’ might be a little harder to find. Resources that include other people who have been there themselves? That have personal experience with exactly the kind of things going through a wayward mind? Even harder to find.

And they certainly aren’t likely to get a whole lot of positive or useful feedback for publicly admitting their behavior and asking others for help. Show me another site on the web that has a protected space for waywards to work out their shit together while holding each others feet to the fire and not tolerating any bullshit.

No, if there is any unicorn in this equation I think it’s SI itself.

That's probably true, that there aren't that many forums out there for waywards. We'll disregard Reddit and Quora in this case. I found one in a quick google search and didn't even see SI on the first page, which is unfortunate. Support groups for sex addicts are much more numerous, but that falls into the addiction stuff and as you pointed out, addiction support is much more common. But, and please I don't mean to sound like an asshole, it is probably due to a couple of factors that don't sound pretty. First, cheating is an abusive thing to do and you don't find much support online for people who do the abusing of any kind. Support for victims is much more easily located. Two, most people who cheat aren't exactly the self-reflective empathetic sorts who would search out a forum like that anyway. Supply and demand, I expect. So that kind of makes your point that a wayward would need to be pointed to a place like this. Regardless, I don't think it's ever the BS's responsibility to bring their WS here. Nor should they be encouraged to. Every BS who comes here sees the Wayward forum and they know it exists. You know how we are when we hit DDays. First thing we think is "how can my WS see and understand the gravity of what they did and how can they stop being that person". No one who comes here and finds the ability to post in JFO isn't aware of the Wayward forum a a few inches down. I'd think personally that anyone who registers and posts already has the information at hand to make that decision. If they ask opinions from others about it, I hope people would respond with what they really feel so that the new BS could get a variety of thoughts to help them figure out what would work best for them. If absolutely everyone in a thread says "don't do it", I'm gonna think there's a reason for that in the BS's story. I'm not jumping to "there are too many assholes here".

I always tell new BS to keep this site from their WS.

Why?

Freshly caught WS are,most of the time, still lying. Very,very rarely does a BS know "everything" when they arrive in JFO.

Very often, NC isn't in place,yet.

A freshly caught WS has been lying and manipulating their BS for a very long time. A BS needs desperately, a safe place to share the trauma they are going through. Sharing their safe place with the person who has been abusing them for months..years..is doing a huge disservice to that BS.

I understand SI is WS friendly. And I think that's great. But my concern is for the BS,and their well being. Once a WS has shown a GENUINE interest in wanting R,has been transparent, is definitely NC, and appears to be TRYING, for a period of time,then I feel bringing the WS to SI is safe for their BS.

But sharing this site with a person who has shown they aren't terribly concerned with the well being of their spouse? No.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:05 PM, Tuesday, November 16th]

nekonamida, you have a pm.

I did share SI with my WH a few months after I found it. While he never posted anything, he read frequently for months. Even without WH posting the site was helpful for us as a couple (and hugely helpful to me as an individual). It did lead to several helpful discussions related to posts and I think some additional understanding from WH of what he had done.

That being said.... I didn't find SI until several months after dday when we were several months into reconciling. And, to be honest, I am mostly glad about that. Had I come here and posted immediately after dday I know I would have received a lot of advice telling me that the situation was worse than what WH had confessed to on dday (it wasn't), that we shouldn't do MC (our MC was a godsend), that I should expose WH (thank god I didn't do that), etc., etc. Advice that is probably often correct but would not have been in my case. And also advice that would have been really hard to disregard as a new BS who was completely blindsided and just had her world turned upside down.

So put me on the side of inviting WS' to the forums and being more sympathetic to new posters.

What I’m not down with is pretending those who choose R aren’t faced with judgement here, there, and every fucking where, because we are. It’s a harsh reality of taking this route. I’m sorry, but to have that downplayed is unhelpful, and frankly untruthful. It does happen on SI. Maybe not as often or as ruthlessly as other online communities, but it does. I personally have accepted that. I’ve grown thankful for for it even, because it has toughened me up. I’m sure as shit not going to receive any high fives in the real world, why should I here? (Except for those few who know who they are) BUT if this isn’t a path you’ve taken, please don’t speak on it. Don’t discount the unique struggle of being looked down upon for your choice to stay by basically the whole fucking world when you yourself haven’t experienced it. Don’t even get me started on the self righteousness and hypocrisy, orI’d be here all day, and break several rules.

I’m genuinely not even trying to "make changes." I’m just trying to be a voice as a newish but healed-ish betrayed who is in R, and what that experience is/was like here, and elsewhere.

Sorry this turned into something it wasn’t meant to be.

nekonamida

How much weight should someone who still loves their WS and wants to R give to the advice of someone who failed or didn't attempt it?

I believe this one question is revealing and part of why any threads about these topics typically run off the rails.

As WalkinOnEggshelz and devotedman pointed out, it wasn't my intention to imply that failed R is the responsibility of a BS. There are a whole spectrum of reasons why R fails and I don't doubt that WSs are responsible for the majority of them since they're normally the ones who are more dysfunctional.

I didn't word that more carefully because my intent was not to generalize but to give an example. My point was about the importance of context in weighing advice and ironically the context has been stripped away in the quotes.

This was the context.

Are they really here to support recovery or just taking out their anger on every WS they encounter or hear about? It seems like they have a pat anti-R prescription for every situation. They share little about their own experience or how it might be relevant to the person they're advising. How much weight should someone who still loves their WS and wants to R give to the advice of someone who failed or didn't attempt it?

This is very much in line with the comments about child raising advice. On the rare occasions when I offer advice on raising kids I always offer the caveat that I've never had kids and never wanted to. Nobody should listen to my advice on that topic without that knowledge. Sure, how much I study child rearing could make a difference in how you weigh my advice. But again, that's all context. And it's context that I find lacking from a lot of my imaginary anti-R cadre.

But if you're like S2F and you only stop by once in a while, you too will read a post from Thumos and label him as faceless anti-R poster #2576 who is clearly bitter, has failed or never attempted R, and probably hasn't spent more than 5 minutes researching it instead of the incredibly well-read and experienced poster he is.

I object to you putting words in my mouth with respect to Thumos. I've found his views quite helpful, if not always in tune with where I'm coming from or what I'm looking for. But it's precisely because he's totally open on the context of his comments that I'm able to properly judge how applicable they may be to my circumstances and goals. As I said in my first comment, BSs need to hear that side of things where it's appropriate.

I’m actually really glad this topic was brought up. I have also noticed that activity on all forums have slowed way down. I don’t go into JFO often because it’s heartbreaking so I don’t know the activity there.

I found out about SI from a post in Affair Recovery. It was suggested by a member there. It’s definitely pro R there almost to a fault and I’m not religious at all. So this felt like a better fit for me. The majority here are honest and direct and that truly helped me see my WH for what he was. The help and support I’ve been given here has been extremely helpful. I like the fact or idea that SI is pro getting out of infidelity. I think that should be priority number one. Because rather you R or D or separate, it’s about ending the ongoing trauma. Many of us suffer from complex PTSD. So cutting off the trauma as soon as possible is crucial. So I trust the veterans and those who have been there. They know the pitfalls. They know unfortunate newbies don’t have the full story yet. They know the lies don’t end on Dday. They just get it.

With that said, I did ask my WH to join the WS forums. It was a complete disaster. It started out ok because yes he needed the tough love badly. He was very much and still is in the cheating mindset. But the thread went completely off the rails. I stupidly responded trying to get it back on track then I was attacked by the waywards for "defending" him. If anyone knows me or read my story I most certainly was not. But what ended up happening is it had to be shut down. My stbx left and never posted again. I honestly and I’m gagging as I type this, don’t blame him. He’s not R material for various reasons yet he could have really learned something here if this didn’t happen. And I say that knowing waywards have to really want the help and develop tough skin. This is just how it went in my case.

I do use the mantra of take what you need leave the rest. I just had a member I never interacted with blame me for the cheating so that was fun. I hope there is a blocking mechanism here, there is a blocking option right?! Lol I hope more betrayed spouses and waywards find their way here if it’s a good fit for them. I’m finding reading and learning is the way to go for me. Responses like what I got today are hurtful and infuriating. Thanks for listening to my 2 cents.

I’m surprised that as a mod and a veteran poster, WOES, you couldn’t come up with at least 5 examples of each circumstance that was on my list.

Of course I can come up with some examples, however as a mod, and specially as a veteran I can come up with much more that have worked well.

By worked well, I mean that both members benefited from the site. Not every couple that comes here reconciles and that is perfectly fine because not every marriage should be saved. I have seen a lot of couples try and then end up going their separate ways (I hate using the word fail in the case of infidelity and reconciliation as the WS failed the marriage to begin with), I have also seen a whole lot of couples reconcile and move on because they no longer require the need for the site. From that moderator perspective, I have also seen a lot of people attempt to mediate them by dragging information between their threads which does nothing but cause hostility and set up camps, creating a shit show and driving the couple away rather than providing them a safe place to heal. That has very little to do with the WS or the BS and isn’t helping either one of them.

You can be a child psychologist, have more experience working with children than most parents, and not have them yourselves thus making your advice more valuable than the average parent.

If I’m completely honest, I would take into consideration the fact that they don’t actually have children when providing advice. Both of my kids have been in counseling. Both of them have specific criteria for counselors they choose based on their needs. As a matter of fact, my son is considering going into counseling because there is not enough representation for his needs.

I think it is natural to seek advice from people who have similar experiences, people that can understand and empathize.

Don’t misunderstand, I’m not saying that your advice is not welcome unless you have the same experiences. A lot of gems have come from various backgrounds and situations. I do, however have a problem with absolutes and very black and white thinking.

How many members here have said pre-infidelity that they would divorce, yet once it has happened they realize that hard line isn’t always easy to draw?

A freshly caught WS has been lying and manipulating their BS for a very long time. A BS needs desperately, a safe place to share the trauma they are going through. Sharing their safe place with the person who has been abusing them for months..years..is doing a huge disservice to that BS.

Exactly this, Hellfire!

Just as it would be extremely counterproductive and unethical for a WS to sit in on a BS's session with their IC, why would anyone think it's a good idea to invite the WS of new BS to participate in what is essentially a crisis support group?

To reiterate-- because it's a point that really bears repeating-- there is absolutely nothing stopping a WS from finding SI on their own. The site is not hidden somewhere in the deepest darkest recesses of the Internet; it's one of the most popular infidelity support forums on the web. Sure, there's a lot of crap advice out there too, but the onus is on them to figure out what works and what doesn't.

And not to get too far off the rails, but I think it this point is tangentially related to this topic: I really can't stand the word "wayward." I get that it's a polite euphemism, but the implication is that this is a person who is just simply misguided; they got just got lost in the woods without a phone or GPS. For the most part, we are talking about fully competent adults who made very calculated decisions. If they can figure out how to carefully manage a double life (in many cases, putting elaborate OPSEC measures in place to evade detection), they can apply that same effort and ingenuity into finding resources-- such as SI-- to save their marriages.

That's pretty much all I have to say about this.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:23 PM, Wednesday, November 17th]

To me this is one of those issues where there is no right or wrong, just what works for you.

I told my husband about this site, not really because I wanted him to post here, but because I was trying to model the transparency that I wanted us to have. I wasn't going to be putting mental or emotional energy into something that I kept a secret from him. If he had wanted to post here, I know it would have been hard for me at first. I remember the dopey things he said in the early days (once he was complaining to ME about how it was hard to lose someone he had been close to, so I called up his best friend and told him that my husband needed a listening ear because I couldn't/wouldn't be it, and all of a sudden my husband didn't need a listening ear any more, go figure!). So it would have been hard for me to read his thoughts.

But on the other hand, I was desperate for him to be introspective and spend time digging into what was going on, and he very much didn't want to. He wanted to rug sweep. It took 8 months for him to enter IC and then a year or two after that to have any sort of wisdom or perspective about it. So I would have appreciated that he was interested in figuring himself out and willing to articulate what he'd done to others. But I have to accept that this is who he is, and that he has done the work to be able to face his shame in a way that works for him.

I do think Affair Recovery has its usefulness for some people. If he had been willing to post, it would have been good for it to be only with other WH and with me being unable to read it. That said, the religious, hetero-normative bent of AR isn't really for us either.

I've always been a "forum" person. My husband never has been. He's a good writer and he's churning out papers in grad school now, so it's not that he isn't into the written word, but I think he's much more of a face to face person. He doesn't like to "hear himself think" in writing.

HoldingTogether,

Thank you for replying to my comment earlier. I didn't feel and wasn't trying to express that you were engaging in assholery. I felt the tone was overly aggressive and, I don't know, snarky or sarcastic? And it seemed odd since part of the post was discussing tone.

Anyway, I appreciate you replying. I may be overly sensitive right now.

What I’m not down with is pretending those who choose R aren’t faced with judgement here, there, and every fucking where, because we are. It’s a harsh reality of taking this route. I’m sorry, but to have that downplayed is unhelpful, and frankly untruthful. It does happen on SI. Maybe not as often or as ruthlessly as other online communities, but it does. I personally have accepted that. I’ve grown thankful for for it even, because it has toughened me up. I’m sure as shit not going to receive any high fives in the real world, why should I here? (Except for those few who know who they are) BUT if this isn’t a path you’ve taken, please don’t speak on it. Don’t discount the unique struggle of being looked down upon for your choice to stay by basically the whole fucking world when you yourself haven’t experienced it. Don’t even get me started on the self righteousness and hypocrisy, orI’d be here all day, and break several rules.

We're all judged harshly no matter what choice we make. I'm a single mom. I've had two divorces. That isn't exactly revered and praised either. Just imagine the jokes at my wedding if I got married again one day. "Ha, maybe this one will work out". People look at that and wonder how stupid I am to have chosen badly twice or wonder if I was the problem. I mean, did Dee even try to work it out? Two divorces...I mean. When someone cheats on us, we aren't left with good choices. You can R and have people judge you or you can divorce and have people judge you. The only guarantee is that people will judge you. Not one of us here got what we originally set out to have.

I feel very good about my choice, so people can judge to their heart's content. I don't live my life to make everyone else feel comfortable anyway.

[This message edited by DevastatedDee at 3:54 PM, Wednesday, November 17th]

I think the issue is more about what we tell newcomers than about being pro-one side or the other.

Some members tell others to do X. Other members aim to help the newcomer figure out what's best for the newcomer.

Sometimes it's really helpful to lay out a plan: get tested, talk to a lawyer, etc. At other timesw, that doesn't help.

My guess is there's a LOT more 'run' and 'D NOW!' advice given than 'Avoid D at all costs.' I also suspect that the same people who chime in with 'R may be possible' also advise that a BS needs to consider D as an option, and they give that counsel especially to BSes who come in with D off the table.

*****

On judgment and being judged: I agree with Dee on this. We are judged no matter what we choose. Some people will judge us harshly, some will support us - no matter what we choose.

Judgment corners us, and the best way out of the corner is to accept one's self and one's choices and to stop listening to negative judgments.

*****

I felt the tone was overly aggressive and, I don't know, snarky or sarcastic?

Ah ... you don't know HT. Personally, I was afraid he was sick or something, because his posts on this thread were so calm....

Let's be real for a moment. More "run and D now" advice just makes sense on a forum that addresses infidelity. Infidelity is an act deserving of divorce whether it was one time with one person or 200 times with 200 people. No matter how happy someone is in R, I expect everyone understands that the WS committed an act worthy of divorce. R is not a casual thing. It's a big deal and it involves massive amounts of work. Infidelity absolutely wrecks a marriage. I know that anyone who has a successful R put in a great deal of work to get there. Divorce probably should be the default response with R only considered if the WS somehow makes it worthwhile to the BS to stay through a lot of effort and change. Of course there are BSs who are financially unable to leave and others who stay despite the WS not being R material for various other reasons. We all try to make the best decision for ourselves once we're able to breathe and think again. Like you say sisoon, most people who suggest R may be possible also suggest that the BS needs to be willing to divorce if it doesn't work out. Divorce is a hard thing, but it can be an absolute gift to yourself. I think it's the easier route in most cases.

Divorce isn't a bad word on an infidelity site. Suggesting that divorce can be someone's best option or that it's the default response isn't an anti-R stance. It's a realistic stance. I don't judge a BS regardless of the choice they make, even if it's something I would never be able to do. I don't judge the victims of this trauma. It's not hyperbolic to say that their WS did one of the worst things that they could do to them. If this site is mostly about focusing on the BS and not so much about directing their WS to the forum, well that just makes sense to me. Why would it not be that way?

I don't recall anyone here saying divorce is a bad word.

My mom divorced TWICE before finding a dude worthy of her, and I was always HAPPY each time she chose divorce. My brother has been divorced three times, two of them due to cheating by one spouse or the other -- he's as happy as any person I've ever known.

I'm kind of smart, I've always known I have divorce as a very reasonable and viable choice in response to my wife's behavior.

Most people are kind of smart and I'll bet every single member who arrives at SI KNOWS they have that option.

I think the points in the thread -- how new members are talked to and if more couples should be encouraged to participate in the forum -- are important.

I have told people to RUN.

But I think the key may be HOW I told them to run. I did it without dehumanizing their spouse. I did it without telling them they are a REAL man or woman by ditching their WS. I did it without adding TRAUMA to an already traumatized person.

R may be hard, but it's one of the best decisions I've ever made.

That could change tomorrow.

I still have the divorce card any time I want. Front door works great, I am free to roam the country.

I think the true magic of SI is it does require accountability from a WS, that's what helped my wife. She's owned her shitty choices completely and that helps.

If people need SI to be their safe space, they should do that. There is evidence SI helps WS. People tend to forget this whole place was created and co-founded by a WS. A human being, who improved her life, and found a way to R and has inspired others to do so. That's a good thing TOO. No ONE at SI is saying R is an easy, fun thing to do. All SI does is say it is POSSIBLE if both people commit to the idea. I'm amazed people seem to be offended by the mere concept. But no one is here without that WS or the WS who have been volunteers on staff, or the WS who help other BS's heal with their information.

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 7:02 PM, Wednesday, November 17th]

I don't recall anyone here saying divorce is a bad word.

Not directly, no. But various people have expressed that they dislike it being tossed at people in JFO so quickly. I think you give good and balanced advice and when I see you say "run" in a kind way, I'm pretty sure that person needs to listen.

If people need SI to be their safe space, they should do that. There is evidence SI helps WS. People tend to forget this whole place was created and co-founded by a WS. A human being, who improved her life, and found a way to R and has inspired others to do so. That's a good thing TOO. No ONE at SI is saying R is an easy, fun thing to do. All SI does is say it is POSSIBLE if both people commit to the idea. I'm amazed people seem to be offended by the mere concept. But no one is here without that WS or the WS who have been volunteers on staff, or the WS who help other BS's heal with their information.

I don't forget that at all. I think it's fantastic when a WS heals themselves and becomes a better person and helps others. I'm not offended by people suggesting R is possible at all. It clearly is. I don't see anyone being offended by that concept. I do see people being sometimes horrified by it when a BS comes here with a particularly awful situation, but that's not being against R or anti anyone who has been a WS and changed. That's a visceral reaction to "please don't suggest this person continue to be abused". Probably situations in which you also would think "run". I've seen R suggested in cases that absolutely blew my mind, and remember that I was with a crackhead serial cheater. Yes, sometimes that has bothered me. I have sometimes read JFO and thought "oh please don't do this to this person. They've suffered more than enough.".

...various people have expressed that they dislike it being tossed at people in JFO so quickly.

There was a time when members' standard advice was to hold off on making any big life-changing decisions. That advice is what kept DS and I together and without it this place wouldn't exist.

There was a time when members' standard advice was to hold off on making any big life-changing decisions. That advice is what kept DS and I together and without it this place wouldn't exist.

I think that's fair in a lot of cases, obviously so in yours. It's when someone comes with an absolutely horrible story where you worry about the poster's mental and maybe physical health that I cringe reading it. Thankfully that isn't too common.

I don't see anyone being offended by that concept.

Not you Dee -- you're also pretty darned reasonable.

We need the voices of our happily divorced people as much as we do those who found a way to R. And the voices of those who are in limbo or worse too.

But I was called an "idiot" in my first JFO thread when I asked about the concept of R. The poster did an edit before a moderator jumped on, but his sentiment was echoed by others in some form or fashion.

My wife was also called names she's not been called before without anyone knowing her at all - simply knowing only that she had an A - somehow gave them license to dehumanize and denigrate her, which wasn't HELPFUL for me a month after dday. I only mean those members who add trauma to the newly traumatized.

Experiencing sleep deprivation and a Hell of mind movies, no one needs to be reminded in JFO, or in General -- about sex or sexual positions, their spouses likely participated in, etc.

I was speaking to that from earlier in the thread and not anything you brought up Dee. I should have pulled some quotes after responding to your comments about divorce (and I agree the word should never be looked at in a bad way, even in JFO).

[This message edited by Oldwounds at 8:33 PM, Wednesday, November 17th]