SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

My wife was also called names she's not been called before without anyone knowing her at all - simply knowing only that she had an A - somehow gave them license to dehumanize and denigrate her, which wasn't HELPFUL for me a month after dday. I only mean those members who add trauma to the newly traumatized.

No, that's definitely not helpful. I'm sorry you had that to deal with.

We may all be judged as betrayeds simply for being betrayed. Lots of "well, what were you doing wrong that caused your spouse to cheat?" That happens, sure. Divorced people are judged, and yes probably more so when it’s happened more than once. I get that. But STAYING with a cheater? Yeah, that’s it’s own thing. I’m not even saying it’s worse, but it is a unique part of R. And it is fucking hurtful. Sorry, I wasn’t some hard ass who didn’t care that I couldn’t scroll through any social media platform without seeing shit about cheating, and how moronic you are for not leaving. Infidelity related videos?? Even ones specifically for couples reconciling? You won’t find ONE without comments saying no self respecting person would stay. But videos and posts about divorcing a cheater? You will be hard pressed to find anyone saying anything negative towards them.

Look, this isn’t a "who has it worse?" It’s an unfortunate truth that you will now and forevermore be judged for staying with a cheater. It’s not a debate. It’s a fact. I have made peace with my decision. I have grown confident in my choices. But I can remember being in a more vulnerable place, and that shit felt like taking a knife in an already open wound.

But if you're like S2F and you only stop by once in a while, you too will read a post from Thumos and label him as faceless anti-R poster #2576 who is clearly bitter, has failed or never attempted R, and probably hasn't spent more than 5 minutes researching it instead of the incredibly well-read and experienced poster he is.

Not trying to pick on him in particular, FWIW, it’s just a handy example. But if this is the impression someone gets who only sees “once in a while” then why would a new poster in JFO see anything different than the “once in a while” vibe? I’ve been reading here a loooong time. I’m pretty sure I’ve almost never posted in JFO. Initially, because I was uncomfortable with laying all my stuff out there, then as time went by because I wasn’t “new” anymore, and in recent years, because the vibe in there is just harsh for me now. (And yes, I should probably contribute to countering that vibe.)

My point is, in the early days, if the BS is put off, then it seems even less likely that a WS will show up and get involved, since many/most newbie BSes are the ones trying to figure out next steps and push their WS in a direction. Perhaps bigger attempts to soften up JFO and retain BSes will lead to more WSes down the line.

"There was a time when members' standard advice was to hold off on making any big life-changing decisions. That advice is what kept DS and I together and without it this place wouldn't exist."

I was given this advice early on and I feel it was some of the best advice I received. I needed time to digest what happened and think clearly before making any major decisions. Maybe that doesn't work for everyone but it worked for me and my marriage.

I stopped posting and giving that advice because a loud majority were saying that it was bad advice and not helpful.

Obviously I would not suggest that to someone in an abusive relationship.

Infidelity is an act deserving of divorce whether it was one time with one person or 200 times with 200 people.

That kind of the thing though isn’t it? The concept that divorce follows infidelity is about as controversial as the concept that B follows A. It is kind of a natural progression and a universally understood outcome from infidelity.

Look, if I said the following to just about any fucking man I meet:

"My wife cheated on me so I divorced that crazy bitch."

That conversation requires no further commentary. Oh, sure, I could go into more detail if I wanted to, but it sure as shit ain’t necessary. Chances are he’s just gonna nod ruefully and maybe say "Yup, that sucks." And leave it at that. He’s probably going to make some assumptions about this hypothetical ex wife, probably going to make some assumption about our relationship, but he’s not nearly as likely to make assumptions about me based on that info, because I will have done the one natural and universally understandable action in response to infidelity.

If on the other hand I tell just about any man the following:

"My wife cheated on me and I stayed with her."?

That’s gonna need to be a whole fucking looong conversation. And I absolutely guarantee that, in the absence of that long conversation, he is going to make some assumptions about me, many of them probably not real flattering ones. And that’s because I will have gone against the universally accepted social norm of divorce following infidelity. I just basically said that Z follows A, which of course it does it’s just that there are about 24 steps between the two. But, in the absence of the explanation of those 24 steps I just look like I don’t know my alphabet. You get me?

The point that I am trying to make is that I’m not sure the concept of divorce following infidelity is that novel a concept, it’s been getting plenty of saturation marketing for the last several millennia. Reconciliation though? That’s more of an outlier concept, I for one had never heard of it before coming here. In my mind infidelity meant one of two things: divorce or remain in shame. That was about it.

Which is why it frustrates me so much when members (not you, just members in general) here try to argue that SI is somehow "Pro-Reconciliation", or talk about the "Reconciliation Industrial Complex" or similar silliness. SI isn’t Pro-Reconciliation it just seems that way in comparison to all the rest of the universe because it even bothers to float the fucking option as a viable alternative to the universally accepted choice of divorce.

And I don’t think SI is Pro-divorce either (That would be like being pro-air, great to know your opinion but it’s all around you regardless your feelings pro or con )

And I agree with you, for what it’s worth. Divorce is the safest most logical course, and keeping you WS off of SI is also the safest most logical course.

Just doesn’t always mean it’s the right one.

But it probably is more often than not. Which is, I imagine, the reason that you never see even the most Pro-R seeming member here urging anyone to Reconcile. (Go ahead find me one example of that happening I dare you! Lol). At most you will find members telling people to consider the option in addition to considering D.

On the other hand you can go into JFO right now and find literally dozens of examples of members flat out telling other members to Divorce, to run, to cut their losses.

Which, again, is fine. Because, as we have agreed, that is the safest course.

But it does kind of show the fallaciousness of the whole "SI is Pro-R" argument.

I think the idea of a BS bringing their WS here seems to be fitting into the same slot as that. It seems that most agree that, for some rare WS’, it could be helpful. But that the risk is just too great. And so, their default recommendation when the question is poised by BS’, would be to advise against. Because, keeping the WS off of SI is the safer course

Which is, I concede, difficult to argue against.

So let’s try it this way: In what circumstances, under what conditions, what criteria, would your opinions on that shift? Is there an amount of time that could pass, a condition that could be met, a rubicon crossed, that would make you say: "You know what? Sure, share this site with your WS."?

Just curious what that looks like.

HT

There was a time when members' standard advice was to hold off on making any big life-changing decisions. That advice is what kept DS and I together and without it this place wouldn't exist.

Many people simply don't have the luxury of taking that advice, even if the cheater isn't physically or emotionally abusive. Examples: the cheater is threatening or hinting at filing false DV charges, the affair has resulted in pregnancy, the cheating spouse is squandering substantial marital funds on affairs, the affair has or could result in workplace harassment or policy violations that sabotage the cheater's employment, the AP is under the age of consent, etc, etc.

Those are the type of circumstances in which a BS needs to take immediate action to protect themselves. They may not be the majority of cases but they are common enough that "hold off on making any big decisions" is dangerous advice if applied as the standard.

They may not be the majority of cases but they are common enough that "hold off on making any big decisions" is dangerous advice if applied as the standard.

Actually, I know almost everyone in JFO, regardless of where they end up, are told to take steps to protect themselves (test for STD’s, contact a lawyer to know your rights, etc.). And if one is responding to a dangerous situation (suicidal or someone threatening violence) new members get some pretty good advice about calling police or suicide hotlines, etc.

One can and should take those steps and may also choose to WAIT to decide on a permanent decision on the relationship. Both are possible.

So let’s try it this way: In what circumstances, under what conditions, what criteria, would your opinions on that shift? Is there an amount of time that could pass, a condition that could be met, a rubicon crossed, that would make you say: "You know what? Sure, share this site with your WS."?

Well..to be fair, I personally wouldn't ever say that, lol. Not because I think it's never a good idea. I'm just not going to do any work on behalf of anyone's WS to convince them to R. That's 100% on the WS in question. And it's 100% the BS's choice to invite their WS or not.

I mean, you're talking to a person who kicked her XWH out of the house within two weeks of him developing a drug habit and the second time he came home obviously high. I didn't give my own WS hand-holding and assistance on trying to R from that or from infidelity, so I'm not going to be the likely person to help someone else's WS make his or her own case.

So let’s try it this way: In what circumstances, under what conditions, what criteria, would your opinions on that shift? Is there an amount of time that could pass, a condition that could be met, a rubicon crossed, that would make you say: "You know what? Sure, share this site with your WS."?

Just curious what that looks like.

I’m one of those who — once I felt good about this forum and okay about my wife reading or not reading my vents — invited my wife to SI. Again, she never joined, but she read here all the time. It helped her, it helped us. Mainly, because she was blown away by the AMOUNT of pain in all of the posts in JFO.

I’ve been asked a few times and my advice is always: whatever fits the comfort zone of the BS.

If a BS thinks it will help their WS and they still get to feel safe venting here. Because a BS needs around 2,576 vents just to feel a little bit better.

I also would add it shouldn’t be a last resort either. If a WS hasn’t done any work or read anything else anyway, sending them to SI isn’t a magical mystery tour that will change someone. A WS has to WANT the help so they can help the M recover.

HoldingTogether:

So let’s try it this way: In what circumstances, under what conditions, what criteria, would your opinions on that shift? Is there an amount of time that could pass, a condition that could be met, a rubicon crossed, that would make you say: "You know what? Sure, share this site with your WS."?

Just curious what that looks like.

Here's a list of circumstances in which I think a BS recommending SI to a WS would be helpful. It should go without saying that bullets 1 through 4 are required before reconciliation can even be considered in the first place.

-The WS actually wants to reconcile; he or she isn't behaving ambivalently about the marriage or already out the door.
-The WS is no longer cheating, as far as the BS knows.
-No contact with the AP(s) has been established and consistently maintained (to the best of the BS's knowledge).
-The WS is not being physically or emotionally abusive.
-There aren't any legal or financial proceedings currently underway that could be undermined by what the BS or WS are posting.
-The WS has demonstrated that they are able and willing to "do the work," even if their efforts aren't always successful. Example: They do the "homework" the MC recommends, they're buying their own books on Amazon about infidelity, they're being proactive in other ways to make the BS feel safe and happy.
-The BS is not repeatedly catching their WS in lies, whether overt or by omission.
-Both the BS and WS are reasonably willing and able to stay off each other's threads.
-The WS is not an Internet troll or someone who has a tendency to sink hours of their day fighting with someone over social media. Arguing on SI would just fuel their need for attention and desire to one-up other people.

While I can't think of specific time frame after DDay in which I would recommend SI, I would be surprised if any of the above criteria were fulfilled within the first 3 months.

And I agree with you, for what it’s worth. Divorce is the safest most logical course, and keeping you WS off of SI is also the safest most logical course.

Just doesn’t always mean it’s the right one.

I think that divorce is always the right answer. Reconciliation may also be a right answer. All people can fall out of love and live new lives after divorce. There are many paths we can walk in life after a divorce. Possibilities are endless. BSs tend to not regret divorce. Not everyone can have a successful R. That isn't a slam on R (please ask me to expand on that if you read it that way). I think we mostly agree on this with maybe a little bit of difference in how we'd word it.

Well, I'll expand on it anyway. I don't judge anyone who does choose R, but I am well-aware that society at large will and it does suck that you're right that you'd need a whole follow-up explanation about why you didn't divorce. I think it's a huge thing to choose. To choose to reconcile is such a gift that I can't even begin to express how I think of it. The BS really is choosing to stay on that path with their WS and give them a chance to form a new marriage when any of you could have chosen to leave and nope out of the whole situation, fall out of love, find someone new, chart a whole new course. It's huge. It's profound. It's a lot more work than divorce. It is a big big deal. That's precisely why I don't take it upon myself to recommend anyone do it. That isn't on me to suggest. When I read a post by a BS about how their WS isn't living like they're worthy of such a thing, I want to shake the WS and mentally scream "OMG you don't even know the caliber of person you're married to that they're trying this with you! CHERISH that person and get it together!". Because me? I'm too selfish for R. I'm not nearly patient enough. I'd say "fuck this" 20 times per day, and I did. I was thrilled when mine fell apart after a few months. I am not built for it. I don't even want to deal with what it takes. So for those of you who do, OMG. It is not the easy route. You are doing something that I cannot.

I’ve been asked a few times and my advice is always: whatever fits the comfort zone of the BS.

I'd like to see this reworded, because I found it impossible to get into any sort of comfort zone for months after d-day. Projecting, I know, but I think a large majority of BSes feel the same.

IMO, it's very helpful for the BS to question everything about their pre-d-day comfort zone - all the preconceptions about how to respond to being betrayed should be examined and reconsidered. The BS needs to realize they have to blaze their own trail through infidelity - they can get help and support, but it's what they do to heal themselves that dictate the course of their healing.

So maybe the advice should be: whatever fits the post-d-day comfort zone of the BS.

*****

I've counseled BSes who want to bring their WSes here to be very careful and cautious. Between WOEz, Oldwounds, and HT and everyone else, I think I'll temper that in the future.

So let’s try it this way: In what circumstances, under what conditions, what criteria, would your opinions on that shift? Is there an amount of time that could pass, a condition that could be met, a rubicon crossed, that would make you say: "You know what? Sure, share this site with your WS."?

I've actually been stewing on this since yesterday, and to be honest.. I can't find compelling enough reasons. And yeah. I'm one of those who have given the kneejerk "keep this resource to yourself" response. I mean, I can think back to a couple of really awful WS's. Not naming names, but I remember one who actually sued a member AFTER the divorce and even though the WS was caught shacked up out of town with an AP and there was a pre-nup signed before the marriage.
But really, I don't think it would have occurred to that poster or anyone else to say, "sure, share this site with your WS", so it's kind of a moot point right.

Put me on record... I was on the internet, and someone changed my opinion.

I didn't realize this is a "Betrayed Partner" only site. SI has some decent resources for a wife/husband who cheated and need to survive their infidelity (sometimes with, sometimes without their partner).

Would I share this site with my wife? Absolutely not. An anonymous website isn't a good couple's therapy site. And frankly, after suffering through a traumatic event, I wouldn't want to expose her to some of the hilariously ridiculous "research" of some of the members here

In the end (or rather once I've gone through enough therapy myself and had my head out of my ass) I tried to help my wife find the resources she asked for, for her needs. But I didn't participate actively in her healing. Had she she found this site on her own (and she wouldn't, she can't stand social media) I wouldn't want to know.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 12:31 AM, Friday, November 19th]

ForgettableDad:

The number of SESMEs (rhymes with "says me" but stands for "Self-Educated Subject Matter Experts") on this site is astounding but growing exponentially.

[This message edited by Wiseoldfool at 2:12 AM, Friday, November 19th]

Before jumping in on WOEZ point for the thread, I think this should be heavily considered.

Ban the word "Cuck" 

You can't say " c u next tuesday" if you know what I mean. Well it used to be censored. I don't know why cuck can't be too. If cuck looked like cunt it may not be used as often.

ETA it doesn't appear to be censored anymore

But to the point its a gamble bringing your WS here. I think people are more against it these days because we haven't exactly seen a lot of hopeful WSs show up. I feel like I can count WAY more WS in the last year that have come here to manipulate their situation rather than help it. It gets discouraging for me too. It makes me assume the worst in any WS that shows up. I try not to let that interfere but I'll be dammed for showing interest and  the person proves my doubts. Frustrating to say the least.

But you just don't  know whether a WS will do the hard thing or not. There is no tell tale sign. It could absolutely blow up in your face or it could save everyone involved. I think we need to be more open to letting the BS make the call without shoving propaganda down their throat. We are not responsible for every good thing or bad thing that comes from the sharing of SI with WS. We can express our own experiences and concerns, but I think each individual BS is capable of discerning the bottom line and risk/reward in their situation. I don't think it should be discouraged any more than it should be encouraged on personal experience and opinions alone. Take a neutral stance, share what you think but ultimately they can figure it out.

I don't think being deep in the throes of waywardness is a good argument for not sharing SI. Or that a WS should just be able to find SI on their own. Even in this day and age when the internet is at your fingers with more information than one can deal. That doesn't mean hold their hand, personally from experience I was willing to take all the help I could get. No matter where it came from or who. As long as it was helpful, and SI can certainly be that.

I found SI on my own, but I was still lying, still manipulating my ex, still blaming him. There was no way to tell what direction I'd take with the knowledge I was gaining. I in fact did not have my shit together when I showed up and there were things I was hiding and had no intention to make changes where that was concerned, until I did, largely with the firm guiding hand of you good people. I. Was. Fucking. Up. Every. Step. I. Took. I had no clue what was needed. None.

I also made the mistake of showing my ex SI and deeply regretted sharing MY safe place as he tried to ruin it for me, keep me away, slander me. Now I also have fears NC will never truly feel in place because should he be bothered he can stalk me here and thats the most unnerving feeling. So. I know a thing or two about it blowing up in my face first hand AND STILL wouldn't say don't not do it.

It doesn't take long to figure out if it was a mistake to share though. But on the chance it helps, it seems like a risk worth taking to me. SI is such a useful tool to the individuals and the couple as a whole when used to get out of infidelity. The sooner a WS understands what it takes the sooner they either stop twisting the knife or you see where you stand with them and now you know. Seems over all a win-win, risks and all.

It does seem increasingly so a BS only club anymore. I know we want to protect and give them a safe place. We can still provide that while accommodating their WS.

For example the information we post in JFO, very important information that only helps the BS, things that if their WS knew could potentially only help the remorseless WS. Like say its mentioned to place a VAR the BS seems to consider that an option, instead of coming to the thread and asking did you do it? Did you catch anything? We just leave the suggestion without trying to get the details. Same as suggesting a PI, don't go back to the thread to gain information on how it went. Rather offer support and encouragement. Sometimes when reading in JFO it feels like people post up with their popcorn like a good movie is playing and they can't stop watching wanting to know far more information than is actually required to provide amazing help. I think cutting back on that will help with any manipulation or like from their WSs. That's just a thought, an alternative way to help protect our BS while also including any help for the WS.

Anyway just my two cents.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 3:34 PM, Friday, November 19th]

This is such a great thread. Thank you WOES and for everyone else who has put so much thoughtful consideration into this conversation. I’m late to the game but (as usual) I second every single BraveSirRobin wrote.

I've been a member since early 2017 which is longer than many and certainly not as long as some others. I do think the tenor/mood of the boards has shifted somewhat since I arrived. I, like many, observed for a while before I felt comfortable enough to post. Even then, I only posted on other people’s posts – not yet ready to share my own story. Vulnerability has never come easily or naturally to me and I saw what seemed then like tough love comments on other peoples posts and I was already so hurt and raw that I was not ready to hear 2x4s lobbed at me. I had a pretty good idea of what would be said – I was young (early 30s), newly married, and childless – nevermind the fact that I had been with my spouse for over 10 years in an otherwise happy and egalitarian partnership and had been trying desperately and unsuccessfully to get pregnant for a year. Nevermind the fact that my WH got super honest super quick and was otherwise exhibiting a lot of signs of being a good R candidate. Nevermind the fact that despite being ready to leave, R is what I (secretly) wanted….. People would have taken one look at my post, seen "no kids" and thought to themselves, "this is an easy one…. Leave him! Next….." I was so fragile then and I was already struggling to justify to myself my then-tentative and very precarious decision to stay; I could not have handled a pile on.

Early on, I shared this site with my husband. I never encouraged him to post – it’s just not his style (to be honest, it’s not really mine either). We read a lot of threads together in the early day – it was part of our "work". He printed out articles from the healing library and even had the "things every WS should know" article in a binder so he could refer back to it. There were never ever any stories that sounded like ours but I would often read something another BS would write on other threads and it would crystallize exactly how I was feeling and express my feelings in words that I didn’t yet have, and I would share it with him. There was something so useful for us in reading about what we were going through in other people’s words. Reading and talking about posts from other Waywards in a detached way, helped my husband through the shame spiral that previously would have cause him to shut down. It helped him identify and normalize his "whys" and personal vulnerabilities. We talked about things we had read in MC. There is no doubt this place helped us.

I am grateful that the"tough love" (emphasis on "love") posts back then, the ones that were so much milder than the ones now but that I still found terrifying at the time, were gentle enough that that they didn’t scare us off entirely. At four plus years out into happy R, I am a lot more confident than I was then that the choices I made were the right ones for me, even though our story in many ways breaks some of the best practices "rules". Despite not being a message board person, I stick around because a) it continues to help me; and b) I would have killed to have seen a "success" story like mine when I first arrived (I am cringing just writing that).

I recently took about a year long hiatus in posting – in part because of a lot of reasons – namely Covid, WFH, a new baby, decreased emotional bandwith etc. etc. etc and I agree that it feels like the R and WS boards are a lot quieter now than they were. I know that part of it is that the world has changed. I hope we have not. People, whether they are BS or WS come here for empathy and they deserve that. Vulnerability is hard, vulnerability in front of strangers on the internet when your heart has already been torn in half is near impossible and it is so admirable to be willing to show up here and open yourself up to commentary. We would all do well to remember that for every person that posts there are hundreds who are silently lurking but still reading and hanging on your every word – maybe even discussing them in therapy or writing them in their journal. I will truly never understand the "Burn the Witch", DNA dripping down your leg posts – I cannot imagine who they help. I CAN imagine who they would scare away.

I will always be protective of BSs and I think its good that there is a safe place for us all to vent (it surely helped me during the anger phase!!), but its worth remembering that behind every turned-around, foggy WS that shows up with the wrong set of ideas and priorities, looking for a quick fix – there is a BS at home who will benefit if the WS takes even one good thing from here and people are more likely to stick around if they are shown some grace, even when they don’t deserve it. If I had not extended my husband grace that he didn’t deserve, we would not be where we are at today. I absolutely LOVE HoldingTogether’s point about how we don’t expect addicts to show up to rehab having already completed the 12 steps and we should not expect that Waywards arrive here with perfect empathy, transparency, and boundaries. If they had those things, they likely wouldn’t be Waywards in the first place. We all arrive here imperfect persons – BS and WS alike.

In terms of practical changes that can be made, part of me wishes that the stop sign was the default for new WS posts. It may already be, I don’t know.

when a BS attempting R posts on the board to ask if they should share the site with their WS; they are often strongly and repeatedly advised not to.

I have given this advice myself, so I wanted to address this.

We talk about the 'affair fog' regularly as it relates to a WS who is still in head-up-tookas mode. In JFO we regularly dole out advice on how to handle that and what kinds of actions a BS can take to help snap their WS out of it. Doing the 180, separation, filing, etc.

I feel like what is talked about less often, and was certainly true in my case, is the fog a BS is in when they first get here. Speaking from my own example, I actually believed my marriage would survive and be better. I believed that he was sorry and would do anything to undo the hurt he caused me. I wanted SO desperately to cling on to hope that I was willing to believe all of his lying words. It took me a while of being here and posting and getting 2x4's and reading to SEE my situation for what it was and to see his actions. Because objectivity is ALWAYS easier when you're looking at someone else's situation. And I am beyond grateful for all those posters who took time out of their days and lives to respond to my posts, to smack me with a 2x4, and to offer their perspectives. I have zero doubt that without all of that, my healing journey would have been magnitudes more difficult.

I definitely don't agree with or endorse the BTW crowd. I find some of the 'advice' given to BS's (especially BH's) to be offensive and borderline cruel to someone who is already in a shit-ton of pain and anguish. I don't hold with name-calling, though I for sure have overstepped a line or two in my time here. But I do endorse honesty and forthrightness. And like it did in my case, sometimes the truth that is so easy for outsiders to see was really difficult to read, but looking back now I am so very grateful for it.

Me personally? Yeah, I am very pro-D and will freely admit it because I know for myself as well as for countless others, D was the ONLY way out of infidelity. But even though that's MY personal opinion, I am also not anti-R. I see a lot of BS's hitting the R boards straight out of the gate and I completely understand why. I did too when I first got here - I avoided the D/S forum because I really did not want to get a divorce and I felt almost like reading in D/S would make it happen. But I also see a lot of BS's in the R boards that are 'in R' with a WS who has really not earned that R; they aren't seeking out resources, they are still TTing, they are not seeking counseling, etc. And while I will always defend a BS's right to offer R, I will also always share my opinions, based on my own research and experience when I see a BS clinging to R with a WS who ain't anywhere near there yet. If we hold to the common wisdom that infidelity is abuse, I feel like me supporting a BS who is 'in R' with an unremorseful WS to be akin to me telling someone to stick around with a spouse who's hitting them in the face. When active abuse is still happening, I personally don't think it's kind or honest of me to tell them to stick it out.

All of that to explain why I rarely tell a BS to invite their WS here. In my 3 years here, I have seen a lot of WS's come and go from the Wayward forum. I can't imagine the kind of mental fortitude it takes to come here and post as a wayward, and I respect the hell out of WS's who do come here to do the work and help fix things. But IMHO I think that waywards like BraveSirRobin and DaddyDom and WOES (and a handful of others) are pretty damn rare. WS's who actually want to do that work just aren't the norm I don't think. And directing a BS to share SI with a WS who isn't ready to do the work... that just doesn't sit right with me. I know when I first got here, knowing that I was among other people who KNEW the pain I was in was invaluable. And being able to say all the thoughts in my head, no matter how awful, and knowing that someone would tell me I wasn't fucking crazy for having those thoughts... that was freeing in a way that's really hard to describe. In my case, as in so many others, I had a WS who was never gonna do the work - took me time to know that and accept it, but it was true from minute one. And I can't help but think that SI wouldn't have been the same support for me if he was here too. That's why I don't generally recommend BS's bring in their WS right off the bat; if they have a WS who is incapable of doing the work (as so many WS's are IMO), there is no magic pill here that's gonna change that.

Ellie>>

As if on cue, 46&2 came on in between sets of Turkish Get Ups while I was reading your post.

As if on cue, 46&2 came on in between sets of Turkish Get Ups while I was reading your post.

One of the best songs EVAH!!