SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hello.
This is my first post and I'm not sure if this is the right forum, but here I am.
Married 42 years (we were both young) with 4 grown children and 8 grandkids.
Wife moved out January 2019, saying she needed time and space to recover from burnout due to expending so much energy on our adult son with mild but permanent disabilities. Said I was not present enough and I put career ahead of her and our son's needs.
We are financially in very good shape due to the fruits of my labor and lack of hedonic creep on both our parts.

The details of how we got to this point are very complex and probably beyond the scope of this introductory post. Suffice it to say, I know that I took a lot for granted but I was never unfaithful.

I was blindsided by her decision to separate and immediately did some deep soul searching and started working with a personal therapist (found a good one after two others sucked).
I also asked wife to start couples therapy, which she refused for several months until relenting in July 2019. We tried one therapist, who sucked. We then found present therapist, who has been better but far from perfect in my opinion. He seems to spend majority of most sessions trying to get wife to talk about her feelings and not much time on relationship repair. But I digress.

I have worked on my issues and have clearly stated my goal of reconciliation. Wife has continued to say she doesn't know what she wants but does not want a divorce. Ironically, due to a career change (retired from very busy surgical practice), we run a business together and still interact nearly every day. I have learned to keep my personal feelings in check at work, and (although difficult for a while) that aspect has been tolerable for me.

I was a trusting chump for the first two years of our separation. I asked repeatedly if there was anyone else in her life, or if she was having any extramarital relationships, and she repeatedly said, "No, absolutely not. I'm working on myself." However, the inconsistencies piled up and I finally broke down my denial/hopefulness enough to do some basic investigation. She told me the password to her phone in passing and I memorized it. At the first opportunity, I opened her texts and found the details that devastated me. She had multiple sexual partners over the first year of separation, including an active affair at the time she left me (with a salesman who called on our business).

I confronted her with my findings shortly later (after an emergency phone session with my therapist for coaching). No surprise, she denied until she knew that what I knew was irrefutable. She then tried to call me out for violating her privacy!
The next couples session was spent with her trying to find out just how much I knew (I didn't show my hand completely but was resolute) and then explaining why she did what she did (justifying).

My wife has sworn that she has not had any extramarital relations since we started couples therapy. I have chosen not to challenge her, because I have no proof to the contrary, but I remain very skeptical and vigilant for any suspicious signs.

Now comes the hard part (maybe because I make it so). As I read over what I have written, and reflect about other things I have not mentioned, I think that I have been a total chump in many ways. However, I also know that I still am very much in love with my wife. Therefore, I have been very patient with her indecisiveness and refusal to recommit to our marriage. I have always believed in my marriage vows. I have resolved to not give up on our partnership until I feel that I have done everything I could to save it. That time is just about here. Since my discovery, she has developed an extreme interest in security of all phone and online accounts. She now has a Proton email account and tight phone security. She has said that she will never let me see her phone again, and that it's not my business what is on her phone or computer.

Wife has also been very adamant in feeling that she does not want to come across as the "Bad Guy" in our marital troubles. I think that is why she doesn't have the courage to say she wants a divorce. Ironically, our adult children have their own opinions of our situation, and she has no control over this! I have been very mindful NOT to share with them (or anyone else for that matter) the details of our situation. But our kids have experienced their own untruthfulness from her and have seen the drastic behavior change on her part.

I guess I'm mostly venting here, but also looking for support and advice from any of you who have been in a similar situation. I think I have to cut bait, and I do not think it has been fear that has kept me in my marriage. I have been very loyal but also quite naive. I plan to give her an ultimatum soon, and if she is not willing to commit completely to us, then I will serve her the divorce papers.

Thanks ahead of time for any feedback.

I am going to quote my grandfather. Do not make promises or threats unless you mean to carry them out. Be very sure what you want.
On the other hand your wife sounds like a serial cheater. She is stringing you along. She shows no signs of wanting to stay married.

FWIW — most cheaters don’t just up and leave a marriage without having someone else waiting in the wings.

I’m sorry to say that your wife has been stringing you along (which you found out is true) and while you are working in the marriage she is not. She’s just biding time hoping you will give up on the marriage yet still financially support her.

I’m saying this with experience — my cheating husband kept saying "I want a Divorce" because "he didn’t want to be married any longer". In reality he wanted to be free to date the Other Woman (OW).

Funny how when I told him to get out and we were finished b/c he continued to lie and cheat — he started begging me to reconcile. He started making amends immediately and was very remorseful. Just to be clear I had every intention of Divorcing him and it was not an idle threat.

I think you have tried your best in your marriage and two years is a long time to be separated. If you don’t feel your marriage is progressing to a point where your wife moves back home then you will live in limbo for a long time.

Living in limbo where you are hoping to repair the marriage and she’s not working towards that goal is like living in hell. So sorry for you. You deserve better and she should st least be completely honest with you.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 12:37 PM, Monday, September 13th]

Wife has continued to say she doesn't know what she wants but does not want a divorce

You realize that this is total BS right? A marriage means a lot of things, but you it doesn't mean you can walk out on your partner and have them continue to support you and maintain all the rights and privileges thereof.

If you haven't yet, please go talk to an attorney soon. Preferably more than one. Find one you think you like.

Did you find any evidence of texting OM before your separation? I find it very hard to believe that she didn't start anything, at least an EA, prior to leaving.

Since my discovery, she has developed an extreme interest in security of all phone and online accounts. She now has a Proton email account and tight phone security. She has said that she will never let me see her phone again, and that it's not my business what is on her phone or computer.

This means that she is still lying and hiding things from you. You just didn't find them yet. In regards to her computer, if she uses it for your business, then, as a partner in the business, I think you do have a right to know. Maybe a good question for an attorney.

I'm very sorry you are here and having to deal with this. I'm glad you've reached the point you are ready to stand up for yourself. Did your WW ever tell you prior to the separation that she was unhappy and felt like you weren't engaged back then? Her excuse is a very common one for WS's. Normally after they already have started an A with someone.

If you need more evidence, consider hiring a PI.
If you identify the OM, expose him to his wife.

Thanks for sharing your story. I've only been a member of the forum for a couple months now and this is my first response to someone else's post. The comments you receive from others on this forum are generally helpful, but often times hard to hear. When I started posting here I was in a state of denial about my wife's affair. What I learned on this forum is cheaters have predictable behavior. They generally use the same defense and gaslighting tactics. They want to have their cake and eat it to. Say the same thing as each other and act the same way. This forum helped me see my wife for what she is now and has helped me let go of the person I wanted her to be and the person I thought she used to be.

I may be projecting, but I see your wife as someone who has set up everything to benefit her. She gets to pick and choose which benefits she continues to receive from her relationship with you, but shoulders no responsibility or loyalty to your relationship. I suspect her behavior has been going on for a lot longer than you think. You may want to access old records if you can to see if there's anything there. Phone records would be the low hanging fruit. Google search histories linked to a google account was a gold mine of information for me.

You will likely get a lot of advice here that says not to trust her, trickle truth, gaslighting, starting the 180. The main thing here is your wife is a cheater. Cheaters want to explore new options in their life without losing their existing support person. What angered me and it might anger you as well is the lying. Because they use lies to control the situation and to control you. If your wife and told you each and every time she stepped out on you over the past years would you still be married to her now or would you have split and started to work on a new life for yourself? Here lying prevented you from having the information you needed to make decisions about what's best for you.

Most people want to know the truth nonmatter where the information comes from. Based on your post you appear to have the financial means to hire a PI. You might want to.

Well if she doesn’t want a divorce, what does she want? It pretty obvious isn’t it? To enjoy the benefits of marriage while acting like a promiscuous teen. And keep you hooked on hopium through continuous lying and secrecy. What in the world has three years of counseling gotten you? She shuts you down.

You want to give her an ultimatum? Do it in the form of divorce filing.

Here is the thing? Can you live with this if she came crawling back? You say you love your wife, but she sounds the antithesis of lovable. She sounds like a liar, user, coward and drama queen. Why would you want her back in your life? What does she bring except grief?

You don’t say, but if you have been celibate while she goes through a long line of men, and apparently intends to continue, you need to take a long look in the mirror. Do you like what you see? It’s time for you to revise your thinking dramatically. You have a lot to offer a woman, and it is way past the point that you should have to wait for her to throw you some crumbs. She ain’t coming back so go live a real life.

You have to be willing to let your M go to save it. So far, everything you've done has been focused on saving your marriage. This causes you to tolerate unacceptable behavior from your spouse and accept your needs going unfulfilled. Both of those things are toxic to your mental health and your relationship. Until you come to terms that you can't save it by yourself and she presently doesn't want to help, you won't be free of infidelity. Continuing on as is will continue the damage to your soul.

See an attorney for advice on what D will be. Disengage as much as possible from your stbx. See the 180 in the healing library. This disengagement primary purpose is to limit her influence on you. To allow you to heal enough to determine what you want. Separate finances. File and have her served. Start living as you are already divorced. Your STBX already is. These steps are common advice for BS in your situation. The primary purpose is to protect the BS. It sometimes has a secondary effect that causes the wayward to reconsider their actions, but that is not the goal. The goal is to help you heal and prepare for a better future. With or without the wayward.

She has said that she will never let me see her phone again, and that it's not my business what is on her phone or computer.

She then tried to call me out for violating her privacy!

Sounds like someone wanting to live two separate lives. She gets to stay married but still play around on the side. The obvious reason she wants her privacy is that she has something to hide from you. But there is no expectation of privacy when one is truly married.

Notsonaivenow -
I’m so very sorry to hear what you’re going through. You know what it is you need to do.

Please re-read Legatus’ post. Re-read again. Your STBXW reaps all the benefits of being your wife, without the responsibilities of being your wife. And lies to control you.

I encourage you to be honest with your children, family, friends, about the real reason for your separation. Don’t honor infidelity.

Your STBXW also doesn’t want you dating anyone else, although you love your STBXW, she’s afraid you’ll realize the truth: she’s not the end all be all. You can be happy with another woman. And you’re a catch. You can find another woman just as special as you believe STBXW to be, who will gift you with love, loyalty & fidelity. Don’t let the sunk cost fallacy keep you handcuffed to a cheater & hold you back from the possibility of being happy with someone else.

Drop the papers and move forward. Your STBXW is actively cheating on you. Has been for quite awhile. She is purposely wasting your money your time & your energy on MC. STBXW is not a safe partner. You don’t need a PI (but may feel better have the concrete proof in hand.) I’m wishing for the best for you Notsonaivenow 😊

Welcome to SI, the best club you never thought you wanted to join. My W's A started when we had been M for 42 years.

Your post says that your W hasn't shown any behavior that leads to true R. In fact, your post describes a woman who is still very happy in a wayward mindset, whether she's cheating right now or not. And TBH, her secrecy indicates current cheating is a definite possibility.

IMO, you're doing a pick-me dance and thereby stifling yourself. I cannot recommend that strategy. Even if your W returns to you, you're dooming yourself to a life of continuing to stifle yourself. Wouldn't you much rather be yourself?

You can't change your W. As you know, you can change yourself. How can you make a good life for yourself without her? My reco is to figure that out, and start doing what you need to do to live that good life. Maybe your W will come back, maybe not, but if you're living a good life (with joy and in alignment with your values) do you really need her? You really need to risk your M to save it, and not every M can or should be saved.

Couples counseling treats the M. Your M didn't fail - your W did (and continues to fail). Have you dealt with the anger, grief, fear, and shame that come with being betrayed in therapy? What does your therapist say about where you are WRT your M?

I suggest looking at the following threads:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/healing_library/reconciliation/what-every-wayward-spouse-needs-to-know.asp - ordinarily, I add: 'if this resonates with you, I suggest printing it off and giving the printout to your H as 'something you found on the web.' My reco: DO NOT tell your H about SI until you're sure he's on board for R.' For you, I suggest this doc because it might allow you to compare your W to a remorseful WS - and R is impossible unless the WS is remorseful

http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=361740&HL=14993 - serjr threads for newbies

Tactical Primer: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=235051

Boundaries and Consequences 101: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=385631

Setting Healthy Boundaries: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=231851

Before You Say Reconcile: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=406548

The Simplified 180: https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=598080

20/20 Hindsight: What I Wish I'd Done: http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=161389

Friend – how you got to this place isn’t really important. Your wife could have asked for separation, divorce or change but the decision to cheat was never a good or logical one.

The therapist? I guess he realizes that if your wife isn’t committed or doesn’t even want to commit then spending time on relationship isn’t going to work.

I think infidelity can only be dealt with from a stance of reality.
The reality is that one person cannot create a marriage. One person can possibly create conditions conductive to a marriage, but at some point both need to commit.
The reality is that both can agree to how the marriage should be. Like your wife doesn’t want a divorce. Well… throughout the ages it’s been common for one or both spouses to have affairs, live apart and even openly flaunt their AP while both remain married. If I recall my history former French president Mitterrand coffin was followed at his televised public funeral by his wife and children with her, and then a few feet back his mistress and children with her. Maybe something like that would be OK with both of you?
Or maybe you want a more traditional one-man-one-woman sort of marriage… It’s totally your call, only if I refer to the first statement one person can’t create a marriage. If you two can’t find the compromise that you both need then maybe it’s time to call it a day.

That’s not a bad thing. It’s probably not how you envisioned your life and how things would go, but IMHO being out of infidelity ALWAYS trumps being in infidelity. No matter how you get there. If you two can’t find the compromise to reconcile then divorce isn’t the worst outcome.

Compromise is seen as a four letter word by many. I’m not talking "compromise" as in allow her to have lovers, but rather the compromises made along the path of reconciliation. Basically fixing some of the things that got you to this place.

OK – Reality…
The reality is she’s having an affair and you two are quasi-married and your financial, business, and personal lives are entwined to various levels.

Totally irrespective of how this ends the first step I would take in your shoes is this:
Schedule a meeting with your attorney to better understand how a financial untwining would look.

Look at this the same eyes as if you learned First Aid. It’s not as if you plan to walk about town looking for people needing CPR or Heimlich’s or whatever. It’s a precaution. It’s to know what you are dealing with IF this goes that path.
You want to know what rights you have, what to expect and so on.

Maybe even meet with your accountant. Have a clear view of the value of your business, the property, the savings… Once again – not because you are intent on divorcing but so you better know what you are dealing with.

Spend some time to consider what you want.
You state you are near the end of the line for waiting for this relationship. OK – where do you want to be in 6 months? Or 12 months? Look at a couple of things: I’m guessing 48 years marriage and all that – maybe retired? Would you want the business? Sell it? Build it? What about your wife? Want to remain married no matter what? What if she’s still secretive about her phone and can’t account for her time last evening? What if you divorce or the situation remains unchanged – want to see your ex at work every day? Some can, some can’t… But give yourself time to think things through.

Try to envision the worst-case scenario. I venture the worst case might be to be still married but your wife still possibly seeing someone else.

Once you have the worst case you can think of less-bad situations that might eventually get you out of infidelity.

Many will tell you to file and expose. Well… so will I but in milder and smaller steps…

At the next MC session consider saying something along these lines:

"Wife. I love you and envisioned spending my life with you. However I have realized there is something worse than losing you and that is sharing you. What you offer me now isn’t a marriage as I define and want marriage. I can accept that I made mistakes in the past, but this is not how I want to go forward. I want you to be happy and since it’s clear you don’t see happiness with me and because I don’t want to share my wife then I have accepted our marriage is over.
There is no rush. There are processes, laws and rules that will ensure we are both treated fairly as far as the business aspect of ending our marriage is concerned. We can take our time but I am moving to end my emotional attachment to you and our financial attachments to each other.

This isn’t what I wanted, but even less do I want what is going on now. If you were to ask me to work on our marriage I would reconsider, but for that to happen you need to let me know very clearly and several serious changes need to be made, including the total truth, accountability and openness followed by clear actions."

And then go hum a tune and make a sandwich.

No need for more discussions. No need to go into the details of who gets the Ford and who drives the Mazda.

If she goes into some "You were too occupied…" rant your standard answer to ALL arguments is along the lines of I am sorry you feel that way. If we were working on our marriage this would be addressed in MC, but since we are divorcing there is no need to go into this" and then walk away.

As far as the kids… The truth is always best, but there isn’t need to prove anything or give details.
"Mom and I are divorcing. I am the driving force for why we are taking that step, but one of the major reasons I am not willing to compromise the vows of our marriage".

I was already to post advice but then I read what Bigger wrote... and don't think I could improve or even add to it... I Just read his post again... it's spot on.

Anyway, remember step one is to see a lawyer (or more). You don't need to tell her you are speaking to one.

Eventually, I'd be truthful with the kids. They are adults. She chose "separation and dating as a way to work on the marriage." YOu chose to stay faithful and truly examine your role in the marriage.

Good luck

F the ultimatum. Have her served and tell her she has until the D is final to change your mind to put a stop to it.

I'm sorry you've found yourself in this situation.
Like I told my FWW, "I don't care how many guys you screw, but not while you're married to me."
Sounds like you're in a very one sided marriage.

I'm sorry you've found yourself in this situation.
Like I told my FWW, "I don't care how many guys you screw, but not while you're married to me."
Sounds like you're in a very one sided marriage.

I'm sure you know this, but nothing you did or did not do "made" her pursue extramarital relationships. No matter how unhappy or unfulfilled one is in a relationship, there are many, MANY other options than pursuing an affair.

The affair is on her.

When you separated, was there an agreement to not pursue relationships? Not that it mattered, because it appears that she was actively involved in an affair when she left. But if you had an agreement that the separation was not to include dating, that's a double-whammy in addition to what she was doing pre-separation. The fact she is viciously defensive of means of electronic communications does NOT bode well. Does she not understand that she will need to be honest and transparent in order to heal your marriage? Or is she expecting you to just "get over it."

I agree with the advice to seek legal counsel. You need to know what the landscape on that side of the fence is.

Cat

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far, both for the very helpful advice and for the kind words of support.
I will reread every post and take the wisdom to heart.
Much of what has been said confirms what I have been feeling.

Sunk cost fallacy certainly resonates, and I will both ask very direct questions and ponder what I truly want in determining my next moves.

Meanwhile, I am glad to have found this site and will continue to learn from your collective experiences and insights.
When I am feeling more confident and further along the healing process, I hope to be able to help others as you have helped me.

I am sorry for what you have went through @Notsonaivenow for the past two years and I guess even before that due to her infidelity before separating.

I know this may sound harsh, but I don't think she is going to come around. I also think she is playing you she knows she has done so for 2+ years now without much backlash whatsoever. She carried on multiple affairs while still being married and basically getting to live as a single woman. I assume during this time you help her financially. Who cared primarily for your adult son when she moved out?

Also, I think she is lying and probably still seeing someone or multiple men. Why would she tell you the truth when she lied to you every day for hard telling how long (even before moving out). She knows you can't prove anything that is why she won't let you see her electronics why would she care if she wanted to R and had nothing to hide. I am sorry but in my opinion she is trying to keep you around for a plan B if she can not find anything better or until she gets tired of her single lifestyle. I think to based on your comment about your profession that she of course does not want to divorce because she does not want her lifestyle to change.

Now to next steps. I think you need to as I said above and lay your cards out on the table and if you really do want to try and save your marriage. Tell her how it is going to be show her the proof of her cheating. Tell her that while you may not have been the perfect husband you were faithful. The cheating is 100% on her and her only. Tell her to remain married she has no secrets moves back in you have access to all her communications. If she says no then I would already have a lawyer lined up and tell her to expect to be served with divorce papers in the next few days. If she tries to be the victim you will let all of your friends and kids know about her infidelity. The choice is hers if she says no I personally think you would be better off to just move on anyway. Best of luck!

I am sorry for what you have went through @Notsonaivenow for the past two years and I guess even before that due to her infidelity before separating.

I know this may sound harsh, but I don't think she is going to come around. I also think she is playing you she knows she has done so for 2+ years now without much backlash whatsoever. She carried on multiple affairs while still being married and basically getting to live as a single woman. I assume during this time you help her financially. Who cared primarily for your adult son when she moved out?

Also, I think she is lying and probably still seeing someone or multiple men. Why would she tell you the truth when she lied to you every day for hard telling how long (even before moving out). She knows you can't prove anything that is why she won't let you see her electronics why would she care if she wanted to R and had nothing to hide. I am sorry but in my opinion she is trying to keep you around for a plan B if she can not find anything better or until she gets tired of her single lifestyle. I think to based on your comment about your profession that she of course does not want to divorce because she does not want her lifestyle to change.

Now to next steps. I think you need to as I said above and lay your cards out on the table and if you really do want to try and save your marriage. Tell her how it is going to be show her the proof of her cheating. Tell her that while you may not have been the perfect husband, but you were 100% faithful. The cheating is 100% on her and her only as well as the lying to your face and gaslighting you for questioning her be unfaithful. Tell her to remain married she has no secrets, moves back in, you have access to all her communications. If she says no, then I would already have a lawyer lined up and tell her to expect to be served with divorce papers in the next few days. If she tries to be the victim you will let all of your friends and kids know about her infidelity. The choice is hers if she says no I personally think you would be better off to just move on anyway. Best of luck!

[This message edited by HappilyMarried1 at 2:26 PM, September 13th (Monday)]