SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

DoinBettr, I think you are speaking to my STBXW's pattern of thinking. She has said in the past, "Men hit on me all the time" and she does look damn good, but FOR HER AGE. I found out that she has had some body-contouring treatments that she desperately tried to keep from me. When I asked why it was a secret, she said, "You don't need to know everything I do." This is despite my telling her that I really didn't mind that she did them, but I did care greatly that she felt the need to try to hide it from me.

She went through a manic period after separation during which time she was very promiscuous, as I found out when I saw her texts. I think (and she tells me) that this has calmed down, due to COVID and some other factors. Yet she continues to try to gaslight me and tells me she has not been with anyone else since we started couples therapy 2 years ago. I called BS on that statement, and she gets outraged. We aren't having sex, and I know I'm not, but I am almost certain she has not been celibate. At this point, I choose not to challenge her lie because I finally do not care like I used to.

She says recently things like, "I don't need any man in my life right now", and "Men are assholes." I laugh to myself as I realize that this likely means she is a little tired of being booty call for these other men, who want nothing to do with commitment. We were married young and were both inexperienced sexually. I feel that a lot of her recent behavior was driven by curiosity for having other partners, and realizing that despite her efforts to stave off aging, the hourglass sands are rapidly sifting through. At some point she might come to realize that the greener grass was an illusion, but it's too late to come back. And she will still be 64, and will not look 44 much longer. Her options for partnering will be limited mostly to guys my age, none of whom will come close to giving her what I brought to the table.

She does know that R will entail a lot of work for her, and my boundaries will be very secure and explicit. I think that's what she means when she has told me that she doesn't have the energy it would require for us to get back together. At least she is being honest about one thing! That, along with her statement that she cannot envision having intimate feelings toward me were the wake up call. I finally saw that I have to to take off my blinders and understand that our marriage is really dead, and even a "new" marriage together doesn't have much of a chance.

I have been asked (here and by a few close friends) why I have waited so long to come to this realization. All I can say is that I have needed the time. I still struggle with the pain of loss of my future dreams and betrayal after so long being married to the woman I adore. However, I now see that that marriage is over, and she is not the same person anymore.

Onward.

She says recently things like, "I don't need any man in my life right now", and "Men are assholes."

My XWW says the same thing. When a person is self-centered, that person won’t be able to attract quality long term partners.

Think about it… when we reach 40… 50… 60… who wants to be in a relationship with a woman who breaks a stable family, cheats on her husband and thinks « men are assholes » ? If you were going back on the dating scene, would you be interested in such a woman? No?

« Men are assholes » because that’s the only men she can attract. She looks good? She’ll attract men interested in sex, not in relationship. (And for betrayed women reading this, the same logic applies to WH, they are not attractive for long term relationship for quality women).

Your WW is doing a self-fulfilling prophecy here.

It's unbelievable how people can change after so many years. I am very sorry for all the pain her choices have caused you.

It took you a long time to get to the understanding you have now. That's ok. We all have different speeds dealing with these tragic betrayals. And your relationship with her has been very long, which increases the difficulty. The important thing now is to stay the course. Move to D her. She has shown absolutely no signs of being a safe partner for you in the future, no signs at all of being "R material".

It will be painful but you will get through the D. And you will be out of infidelity at last. If by some miracle the D truly gets her to see just how bad she has treated you, maybe she will make the effort to heal herself. I highly doubt that will happen but there are a few people here that, when divorced, turned things around and owned their deep problems.

You wrote "Onward". Yes, please do give yourself that gift. Make it so.

She does know that R will entail a lot of work for her, and my boundaries will be very secure and explicit. I think that's what she means when she has told me that she doesn't have the energy it would require for us to get back together.

She had plenty of energy for her other men though didn’t she?

Living on hopium just extends your stay in limbo.

I see this all the the time. I care and love them so they must feel the same. Nope, actions tell you what you need to know.

Living in denial of who they really are is a fantasy comfort zone that you get nothing out of.

Just thought I'd leave an update, so as to learn from the insight of others.

I told WW about my meeting with a lawyer and my preference for mediation. Mediator gave us some options for dates of initial joint meeting, as well as a description of his role and the overall process. I forwarded this information too WW. She requested a few days to think about it before responding.

WW asked to meet to discuss further, and we went to a restaurant after work. The key points she made in a lengthy and emotional meeting were as follows:
1. She does not want a divorce

2. She is not now, and has not "since we started couples therapy" been having sex with anyone. She has provided no supporting evidence, other than her word. However, there have been indications (none recent) that the stated time frame is not true. And (red flag) she is refusing to share access to her phone and computer.

3. By seeing a lawyer, she said that I broke an agreement we made not to do so without first informing one another. I do not know if this is gaslighting or my poor memory, but I feel that it is the former. I had asked her after one couples therapy session at least 9 months ago whether she had yet consulted with a lawyer. She said that she had not, and at the time I remember feeling relieved because of my hopium-altered state. However, I do not remember the "agreement" which she referenced the other night. Perhaps I did say so, but it was at best a passing statement reflective of where I was at that time.
When she went on to perseverate about this point, including telling me it is an example of why she still feels she can't trust me to keep my word, I had to end it by saying, "honestly, I do not recall making this agreement, but if I did, so much has changed since then that it is no longer valid. Let's get to the issues at hand here and now."

4. Most of this meeting was spent with my WW telling me that the real way to her heart, and the thing that would mean more than anything toward her feelings for me turning positive, had to do with how I interact with our adult son who has executive functioning disabilities. Without going into too much detail, she has dedicated a great deal of her life energy into advocating for him and making sure he had the best possible supports in place to get him through school and into early adulthood. He has been so fortunate to have her as his mom, and she will never give up believing that he can do more than almost anyone else thinks he can.
She reached a point several years ago where she realizes her limits in this process. She had been rattling my cage to step up and take a much more active role in our son's life, even to the point of wanting men to retire early from medicine and dedicate as much time as necessary to get our son successfully launched.
I knew that by my nature, I could never approach his issues in the way she expected. I did not feel ready to make this my retirement career, and I was definitely not of the mindset to retire 3 years ago. I did become more active in his life in some ways, but I also regret that I was not as committed as I could have been. That's water under the bridge now.

Since my WW moved out 33 months ago, that forced a change. I was virtually the sole support for our son for at least
a year while she was, in her words, "feeling like a ballon that was let go to float to who knows where?"
While she was "away", I stepped up in my own way and both confronted him about his drinking problem (he subsequently has stopped drinking), and got him his own apartment, where he now lives (instead of in our family home). I have also worked on setting up some new supports, some of which have failed but others of which are still in place. Have I made my son my main project? No. Is he a central concern in my life right now? Absolutely.
I think the main thing that my WW wants from me is to act out of character and be like a drill sergeant with him. Our son had two individuals during his adolescent years who were very influential, and they both had the ability to get him to do things by riding his ass. Now that he is 31, he has broken off contact with both of these men, in large part because he does not want to be treated like that anymore. Would it be a set up for me to lose a lot of my recent gains with my son if I tried to treat him this way? It's not hard to see that this approach would be a massive fail. Besides, I cannot be something that goes against the way I am hard-wired.

My WW proposed that we go away and hammer out our issues before we D. She feels that we will know one way or another after time together without outside distractions whether we should stay married. She said that she's willing to take up to 2 weeks if necessary.
I have not decided whether I will take her up on this offer. I am open to the possibility of R, for several reasons, not the least of which is that I still am in love with her. However, I am also very aware of the fact that our former marriage is dead, and she is not the same person (nor am I) that we were 3 years ago.
I will continue to have patience, but only if it is warranted. I ended couples therapy recently, after nearly 2 years of sessions mostly focused on how she came to the decision to leave, because there was no indication that she wanted to work on repair. Therefore, I am very skeptical that we will be able to "hammer out" anything by going away together alone.
If I decide to accept this offer, I will go with my list of boundaries and non-negotiables in hand. I will state them clearly, and accept no compromise on issues of utmost importance to me. In this regard, my WW is correct, in that we will know if we should stay married.

Please comment if you'd like. Ours is a complicated situation in many ways, but also maybe less so than I am making it in other ways. I am over the fact that 42 years of marriage means much, but I also think there is still potential to come through this as a couple. My WW's actions will be the only thing that matters to me in making my decision.

I don’t get this. What am I missing? She clearly blames you for all her decisions. Yet she does not want to make official what has been a fact for three years. By " not getting a divorce" does that means she moves back into the house? Or do you stay as you are now? If so, what possibly is gained?

So you are going to go somewhere in the middle of a pandemic and do what? Shut yourself in a room and she will dictate terms like Stalin? It sounds like the hammering out is she will be the hammer and you the nail.

This will be the first time in three years you are together. You are going to be reliving her various sexual encounters in your head while she is playing dictator. You will not be on the same page.

What I don’t see is an apology of any kind. I don’t see expressions of love or desire. I see her making demands. Surely, this is not reconciliation.

Surely, this is not reconciliation.

Just as longsadstory wrote, this isn't reconciliation and is her making demands. It is all about her.

4. Most of this meeting was spent with my WW telling me that the real way to her heart,

While this quote isn't all of of the point of point 4 it's indicative of her. She's telling you how you need to win her back. She is a cheater and she abandoned you and your son but this is how you need to win her. After you satisfy this, if you even can, there will be something else and something else.

Stay the path of D. If no progress towards mediation, file and have her served.

Based on what you wrote it seems like every deal is in her favor. This is a false reconciliation. She will just get to continue what she's been doing i.e. 'not having sex with anyone'... She still wants to be married to you but she still wants to continue what she's been doing.

This doesn't resolve anything. You love her but does she love you back? She loves being married to you on the front but she loves to continue her life on the background.

Think about it.

It does sound like your wife might be suffering from burnout.
Not that it justifies her reactions and actions. More an explanation.

IMHO she’s combining several issues. Issues that might be connected but should be dealt with separately.
For one there is the son. She makes it sound very one-sided and that you weren’t as active in his life as she would have wanted. Well… that’s HER perception. Maybe it’s true, maybe you two had different views on the end-goal. IMHO with a 31 year old person the goal should be the ability to live as an adult rather than as a child. Remember – at some point one or both of you won’t be there to guide his life, and the role of all parents (irrespective of childs ability) is to make the kids as capable and self-sufficient as possible. That might include handing over the tasks of daily lives to professional caregivers rather than mom or dad arranging the clothes and making the meals.

Could it be that as the son got older the vision of his future became different between you and your wife?
This is a parenting issue – not a marital issue.

Married or divorce you two remain parents. You need to be on a comparable page regarding that, although I can’t say if your view or her view is better or more realistic. I’m armchair-diagnosing that maybe she’s feeling some pain coming to the realization your son won’t "heal" or get better or whatever.

OK – then the marital issues.
At some point - +30 months ago – she decided to take her issues outside the marriage.
THAT is what THIS SITE deals with.
The decision in YOUR HANDS is how long you accept being formally married but not morally or reality married.

The break of a promise by seeing an attorney? Bull.

What is it you want? I will suggest keeping a certain pressure on the situation, but the amount can be dependent on your wish. I think her 2 week suggestion won’t do anything. I think the key to reconciling is separating the parenting issues from the marital issues. The two weeks seem to be focused on fixing the parenting factor. I suggest you tell her this; that she’s mixing the issues and clearing one won’t fix the other.
I suggest you continue gathering your information needed for divorce, and even file and have her served. The process itself takes time and that time can be used to define how to proceed. By filing you have a little more control of the speed.

I read so many posts that I don’t have all the particulars on you but I think your romantic heart is duking it out with your pragmatic side. Unfortunately you need pragmatism. Occasionally life stinks but you have to deal with it. So, what is your life going to be in 5 or 10 years? You really need to answer this for yourself. All the suggestions in the world from us won’t move you one spot. You need to answer this for yourself.

When your WW called you out for breaking your pact not to consult an attorney without first consulting her, did you happen to ask her if a pact was broken when she had sex with multiple partners after she moved out and then lied about it?

1. She does not want a divorce

Why would she? Cake eating is a lot more desirable and easier for her lifestyle.

2. She is not now, and has not "since we started couples therapy" been having sex with anyone. She has provided no supporting evidence, other than her word. However, there have been indications (none recent) that the stated time frame is not true. And (red flag) she is refusing to share access to her phone and computer.

Laughable. All cheaters lie a lot. She wants life on her terms. You don’t matter much.

You know the truth. These are more like huge red banners not flags.

The only one keeping you in this scenario is you.

Hi again Notsonaivenow,

When you’re in the midst of this, often you fail to look at the situation logically. Your heart (or whatever amalgamation of the ephemeral you call that side) is still thinking of "how life should be" and trying to save it. The fantasy of "how it should be" is the pull reeling you back into your complacent state. The logical side is screaming at you the other way; trying to get you to perceive your reality as it exists. This is what Cooley noted.

What do we want in these golden years? I haven’t reached them, but I know many that have. Perhaps legacy, or looking back on a "life well lived." Maybe it’s the ending of the story we write in our heads – and ending already written. Legacy is a valuable thing, and as we approach advanced age it seems to be a huge driving force in actions. (At least, that’s what I’ve seen.)

As a doctor, you’ve touched thousands of lives – mostly for the better I am assuming. You’ve cured ailments and given people new leases on life. That’s a legacy. How you’ve been in your son’s life… that’s a legacy.

And, yet, (understandably) most of worth you’re placing on "legacy" or the value in your life is viewed with your WW as a central character. At least, I suspect that’s why you’re holding onto this.

In generations past it was common for spouses to separate and lead separate lives, all while keeping the marriage. Because, frankly, marriage as an institution was valuable no matter how horrible it was between two people.

And this is because, historically, marriage was more about societal order and property than it was about love, by and large. This has changed (likely, predominately for the better).

Until about fifty years ago, you had to actually PROVE that someone broke their vows in some way to have a judge agree to divorce the couple. This could be abandonment, abuse and infidelity. You had to prove to a judge that the other party had done something so egregious that the marriage had to be ended. It was a societal investment in marriage.

Now… marriage is about "love" in our common understanding. That feeling of love can vanish over the course of a long marriage. Love can be fleeting. Love can be between multiple people. This is the message of the current times. Once that "love" is gone a judge can split the assets and let everyone go their separate ways.

My guess is that you value your marriage more than your spouse for different reasons based on your prior posts.

Your spouse values the resources, your permissive attitude and the social capital (my guess). You value your spouse for beauty, legacy, routine and social capital as well. (This may be harsh, but it’s a prediction.).
You likely won’t get to a point where you know WHY YOU want this marriage to work for some time.

But, since I only chime in when I see someone in a dangerous position… here’s a few danger points that COULD happen:

"You broke our agreement to talk to each other BEFORE we talked to lawyers!" = "I wanted advanced warning so I could file first, protect assets and get out in front of the narrative for our social circle and family."

"Let’s get away for two weeks somewhere else to really hash this out – somewhere far away from here." = "I might want you out of the house and out of pocket and distracted while my lawyers get the ball rolling without you knowing. I want to put a pause on this because your filing is catching me off guard. Maybe I can accuse you of abuse or something while on vacation in another state."

"I really want the marriage to work, and all it would take is you being a drill instructor with our son." = "I want to keep you on the line and give you a hoop to jump through to buy time. I want to make this your fault, and that’s the best card I have – calling you a bad parent. Your parenting style is why I need to have sex with other people… I swear. And if you just take, say, six months to fix it [while I am getting ready to file] maybe, MAYBE, I would come back and be your fantasy wife. Yeah, that sounds real."

One of the best lines on here I read came from a dude relating what his lawyer told him after he found his wife in an affair.

Client: "She says she doesn’t want a divorce."

Lawyer: "Yes, she does. She’s going to string this along until the cause of the divorce isn’t her affair… maybe a year or two from now."

Right now, your WW is living as a divorced woman while offloading the child care onto you. Maybe it’s payback. Maybe is subconscious resentment.

What I can tell you, whatever it is, it’s extremely dishonest. She’s gaslighting you by dangling a carrot of what you want, while at the same time showing you what she really wants. Trust what you see, not what she says.

And, what do you see? A woman who wants to be divorced but is afraid of what it will mean for the business, the money, her lifestyle and her status in the community. And, she’s probably scared for no reason. First, she will probably get enough to live on just fine based on assets. Second, no one in her social circle will care too much, and my guess is that you haven’t been the most active in it anyway.

So what’s the holdup logistically? She can’t make the business run without your participation and she is scared of retirement. If you divorce, then the business goes up and she knows she can’t get child support out of you since your kid is an adult. She also wants YOU taking care of the kid now (possible burnout like Bigger said). If you divorce, then maybe she fears it falls back on her. She won’t have any more ability to earn, whereas you can. She might get nominal alimony.

I’d discuss this with your attorney, but consider broaching selling the business. Then, after the dust settles you can go back to work for a few years and make up a better nest egg.

Right now, it’s just logistics. She divorced you more than two years ago. She just didn’t tell you, specifically, that she did. She just demonstrated she did. Now, it’s just about how to end the contract.

In short – I’d file. I’d be the one to file. You can take it back, annul a divorce in some states or wait out the process. But, at least take that step. Also, don’t tell her you’re filing; just have her served. Maybe play along with the "maybe we should go on this trip" angle to buy your lawyer time to get the paperwork done.

This won’t come as a shock to her – she’s just buying time now to make sure her plan is hatched correctly.

Finally, protect yourself. I’ve been around the block enough times to see false allegations of domestic violence and abuse. This – while maybe not – seems like it’s ripe for her to play that card if she’s cornered.

All the best, and good luck.

*** DON’T TAKE THIS AS LEGAL ADVICE, TALK TO A LAWYER IN YOUR JURISDICTION***

So basically after reading your thread it looks like your WW doesn't want R or D? But she enjoys the promiscuous life while eating your money? What makes this more scary is that she wants to go away for two weeks, this is a big red flag. Do you have a life policy with her name on it? Let close relatives know before going on any trips with her. From what you told us, your WW is not thinking straight at all. Multiple sexual partners, doesn't want D or R, burnout meltdown. My Aunty was like this and left my uncle for 3 years, didn't want a D or R. When she came back, she wanted to go away with him on a couples retreat. He passed away at the retreat from natural causes. So, just be careful

Hi OP.

So 33 months, going on three years since she left.

Do you intend on being single the rest of your life? If not, start dating. At this point mate, who cares if your wife finds out. You dating someone will be about you, not her.

Next time your friends try to set you up with someone, do it.

Ours is a complicated situation in many ways, but also maybe less so than I am making it in other ways.

Most everyone that comes here think it’s complicated. Nope. Your wife is basically a cheater and you’ve kept yourself in limbo for almost 3 years. For what?

A friend of mine said the hardest thing for him to realize was his wife was just a typical cheater. Nothings special at all. Dime a dozen.

Now she wants privacy? Wake up or get more of what you’ve gotten for the last three years.

It seems like you’re still swallowing her blame shifting lies. Why?

Notsonaivenow -
I’m aghast at her saying you broke an agreement and she can’t trust you, the woman who walks out on her husband and son and went on a banging spree. You should have gotten up and walked out then. Your situation isn’t complicated, your wife fired you as her husband long ago and wants things to remain as is and you’re nostalgic. She wants to remain married because (a) she likes living life as a single girl with the comfort of knowing she has you to fall back on and the other benefits of marriage. Up to now you’ve given her no trbl about it, she believes she can get you back in line OR (b) she wants to be the one to file and is stalling. Notsonaivenow, you’ve come a long way, but you’re second guessing, its normal, your wife knows how what to say to you, handed you a pipe with a little hopium and you took a couple puffs. But listen to Bigger, listen to Waggingthedog, listen to me and everyone, you can stop it at any point before it’s finalized, but you need to file for divorce and you need to file now. You’re being played maybe even set up.

If I decide to accept this offer, I will go with my list of boundaries and non-negotiables in hand.

Oh hell no! You have got your thinking all screwed up so badly.

First, you are dealing with a remorseless WS. How do you tell? Well, for one, the remorseful WS would be crawling on their hands and knees for a chance at R. They would be asking you for the non-negotiable, and would add some of their own to strengthen it.

In your case, she is making you beg for a chance at R with her. This is the screwed up part. She betrays you and your family, but you need to earn her trust back?!? How does that work?

This two week 'break' to hammer out issues, would probably end up with her hammering her demands onto you. You are also still doing the Pick-me Dance that will end in tragedy.

All this and the lack of transparency is a clear indicator that your WS does not care about R. All she is looking for is how to retain her lifestyle and not lose the walking ATM (hint, that means you).

From what you have posted, your WS has not done anything to make herself safe for you, but wants you to make yourself safe for her.... That is the Abuser telling the Abused to suck it up and make themselves available for more abuse. Crazy shit there, but par for the course for remorseless WS.

I also think there is still potential to come through this as a couple. My WW's actions will be the only thing that matters to me in making my decision.

This has potential truth in it. What I mean by that is this can be truth only if the WS has true remorse. As it stands in your current situation, you are dealing with a remorseless WS, so you will not be able to realize the potential outcome of staying as a (healthy functioning) couple.

Let’s remove the fluff. It doesn’t really matter when she had sex last with other men at this point. What matters is that she is not taking responsibility for her actions and decisions.

If she was, then those details would be more important for R, but she doesn’t meet requirement number 1.

As long as she doesn’t take responsibility, R would mean going back with someone who will find some other external reason to cheat. Your son didn’t make her cheat. Your parenting style didn’t make her cheat. She did that on her own.

That two weeks agreement, why does it matter? It’s like going in a head on collision, you are bleeding to death and you are arguing about going to Joe’s auto repair for the paint job or not.

She cheated (or is cheating). She doesn’t take responsibility. She is not a safe spouse. You are suffering. You make the abuse stop, you walk away.

I never write something of real substance here, but in your case I have got so angry reading your last update (angry with your wife) that I felt compelled to write something.

Do you really want to grow old with her??? (the way she is now, and not the way you remember her)

She hasn't been your wife in, almost 3 years! let me write it again 3 YEARS.

She is not your wife, and most importantly she doesn't see herself as your wife anymore. She just got lucky being with what seems to be a very good guy with good morals intact. (I know you are not perfect, as the rest of us)

I really wish you all the best.