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As for being kind and caring, yea she’s not so kind and caring to her husband now is she. Just wait.’

This wrecks my mind every time I see it. It just seems impossible that someone could delude themselves to the extent that they don't SEE that. I mean, how fucking narcissistic or needy does a cheater have to be to think they're soooooo special when they're literally HIDING from the AP's latest victim?

I don't think I'd worry about the OW "winning" here. The vast majority of women who are on these porn sites are there looking for gifts and money, so it's unlikely that she's going to be bringing any wealth to the post-affair relationship. What she will bring though is insecurity, poor coping skills, a dearth of boundaries, etc. In fact, if I had wanted to punish my WH forever, I would have left him to the bridge troll who was so confident that she'd "won" him that she ratted herself out to her own BH. We had already raised our kids, and there he'd be, paying to raise someone else's, and a kid who would NEVER get over him not being "Daddy" too. If I had really wanted my WH's in misery (and I would have if he'd left), it would thrill me to think that the OW was frightened of me, that she would worry that I might take him back, that she'd be stuck in an endless "pick me" dance while my WH compared every dish she cooked for him to my better cooking and her every incompetence too my better than average ability. It would amuse me to think of him remembering exactly where he'd met her and the filthy things she was doing behind her husband's back whenever he felt disappointed by her. Really, I could just go on and on, right? There's a REASON people say that "cheaters deserve each other". It's so much better than thinking of some innocent woman being taken in by the cheater's love-bombing act.

Anyway, think about it. It might actually make you feel better thinking about the two of them punishing each other for years and decades to come.

Is it ok to not forgive your WS? I’m the type of person who believes forgiveness is for yourself and releases your soul from any of that baggage and burden. But, I have no idea how I could forgive him for what he’s actually done!

I don't think so. I still haven't "forgiven" my WH. I found a way to "write off" his debt to me, but in cases of divorce, I don't imagine you have to do even that. Instead, you might consider thinking of it as evicting him from your brain space so he's not living rent-free in your head. Or achieving indifference, getting to "meh", whatever it takes to put him in the rear-view mirror. Now, if you're a religious person, you might seek some guidance from your pastor, but otherwise, the real point is to eventually become indifferent to the extent that you don't care what happens to your ex whether it's good or bad.

Is it ok to not forgive your WS?

Yes, its fine not to forgive them, I will never forgive mine.

I think that maybe I have a different view of forgiveness to others though, as I have always seen it as something they should earn, by at least being sorry and taking steps to make amends. Without it, they do not deserve my forgiveness.

I also never really got the idea of it being for me - I am not going to sit and resent him or let resentment and hate drive me, I have let those go now. I don't need to forgive him to heal myself however - I see those as very separate things.

As long as he isn't truly repentant....Nah...you don't have to forgive him. He will just see it as a win for himself. The biggest monster I deal with though isn't XWH any longer. It's me. I tortured myself sometimes just like you do wondering and worrying which takes a toll eventually. There is no peace in that. How to fix it? Still trying to figure it out. Now THAT is something to work on.Anyone have any pointers for that?

Maybe that's the missing link. Who do we need to really forgive for peace of mind. Them or us?

[This message edited by Bonetired at 5:20 AM, June 4th (Friday)]

Who do we need to really forgive for peace of mind. Them or us?

Why does forgiveness have to be a part of peace of mind?

For me, peace of mind has come from working on myself, trying to improve things which I have felt to be wrong or missing in my life.

When I think about things I may have done wrong in the relationship, I read about it, talk about it and work through it. Likewise with things that worry me or that I was wondering about, work through those things, maybe speak to an IC. Peace of mind came from me being good with me.

Perhaps its because I am not religious, but I have never felt that the drive I sometimes see in people to try and do away with negative feelings or emotions, is very healthy.

Your feelings inside dictate if you forgive someone, or hate someone, or are jealous of someone and these feelings are real and need to be acknowledged the same as any other feelings. It is not wrong to feel them and its less healthy to pretend you forgive, or to say and act like you forgive when inside you don't. Its better to just acknowledge " Hey, I am just not going to forgive this" park it and move on.

Just don't let negative emotions eat you up, and hold you back. If you can't park them and move on, then its time to talk to someone, an IC or someone who can help.

What really sucks is that I’m in a community property and a no-fault state for our D. As I’ve been the saver the past 16 years, and he’s been the one to buy ‘toys’, sadly he will get money from me and from the house equity. While I’ll definitely fight like hell to keep what I can, the money might not run out for them for a while. From the beginning of all of this, I’ve wondered if she is a gold digger or a scam artist? She is posting pictures of large emerald cut diamond engagement rings on Pinterest recently … the equity on my house may pay for that sh!t! How disgusting is that?

I'm glad to hear you plan to fight like hell to keep what you can. I know there is only so much you can do but it also looks like they are already blowing through their loot and they don't even have it yet. Two spenders with one only semi working (he seems preoccupied at the moment) can go through a lot of money if they don't have anyone to hold them accountable. She's a cam girl. She's going to need a lot of attention and he's used to having two decent salaries and being able to get "toys" whenever he wants. They will blow through the money quickly.

I'm the saver also. It will kills watching them have "fun" with the money for a long time but when it's gone, it's gone.

The thing with Narc is that they need to have someone to scapegoat. Someone to blame for everything that is wrong. When you are full NC for a while he will run out of amo. When he is no longer able to blame you he will find someone else.

Please update after he has fully moved out on June 5th. I'm interested to know how he reacts and how you feel having him fully gone.

[This message edited by Freeme at 6:23 AM, June 4th (Friday)]

Very true narcs are notorious for blaming others.The fact you are gray rocking him right now is driving him crazy. It's like a drug addict who can't get a hold of his drug. It gets worse before it gets better because he's jonesin for his outlet which is you. Now that your not there he resents that because he has this need to blame you for everything. Sounds like he's been doing this to you for a long time. Keep up the good work on that end. Eventually he will find his next fix to feed his ego . Probably gonna be cam girl. Oh well she asked for it didn't she.

Venus -

I was at your stage once, hoping that my ex would hit rock bottom, and learn her lesson. Come and apologize to me, and maybe, just maybe she'd see the truth and see how horrible a mistake she made. I believed that she was in some sort of affair fog, and at some point she'd wake up and realize it was all so fake. Well, 4 yrs later, and they are still together. I don't know if things are happy at their house, I don't care nor do I ask the kids, although I suspect that the AP may be cheating on my WW based on her all of a sudden free time.

I write this b/c I am hopeful that I can help you see that that way of thinking will keep you in a limbo state. I think you realize now that your WH was having an exit affair. Maybe it was forced and not planned, but its heading in that direction. The way out for you, is to move yourself forward and to not care if they crash or not. You shouldnt' even care if your WH hits rock bottom, bc he may never tell you if he does, and hopefully at some point soon you won't give a shit either.

Moving ahead in D as you are is your best bet. Let him have his Cam whore. She holds nothing to you. Just like my WW's AP, he is a loser and will never be in the same league as me. Just know, she will always be a cam ho. You may feel like you lost your Husband, but truth is, he lost a great wife, and gained a virtual prostitute. That's really all there is to it.

Karma and all will find them some day, and your job now is to get your mind and body as far away as you can from the both of them. You will heal faster, and you will see that you lost nothing.

If you recall, I expected my STBWX to be fully moved out of the garage when I came back from my trip this past weekend. I even told him to let me know if he needed more time so that I could accommodate that ((1) because I’m nice, but (2) and because my fence blew over and the contractors are here for about a week replacing it and need the side yard / garage to store all the supplies etc.). Well, he lived up to our expectations in true textbook narcissistic behavior SI!

My STBWX left a bunch of his stuff in the garage / side yard (took maybe 80% of what I was expecting). We all know he needed an excuse to come back to the house AGAIN. Desperately looking for an opportunity to have contact because NC and grey rock is driving him crazy! He also sent me a text saying that he was going to grab the rest of his items Sunday evening, he wanted to do a car detail on Saturday 12June and will be using the water/garage on that day, and that he will store his utility trailer for 2 weeks until he moves to *said location*.

Well, I figured ‘F’ that! He had the nerve to leave stuff here the past 5 months, after cheating / leaving me for a cam whore, and then had the arrogance to “tell me” that he’s using my water, my garage, and store his trailer here for free! The arrogance. No WAY are you gonna do that! So, I got a crew over to the house and we cleaned out the side yard, put all of his stuff that he left in my dad’s utility trailer and put it out on the driveway, and cleaned out the garage.

And sent him a little text: “All of your items in the garage are in dad’s trailer on the driveway. You can grab them tonight after you get home from *said location*. Please let me know what time you will be by. Also, I have a contractor at the house for the next 7-10 days, so you are unable to park the trailer at the house. And no, you aren't able to do a detail on the 12th.”

Well, as you’d expect, he flipped that I had the nerve to clean up his mess and get it out of the house! I got a series of texts and phone calls and voicemails full of anger / rage.

My favorite voicemail was the one that said, “That’s it you f*ing b!tch, I’m done with you. You don’t deserve my last name and you are finished as far as I’m concerned.” My favorite text said, “You thought I was mean before. You have just made this easy, so thank you.” I had to clean up his grammar for you SI, but these were the key messages. LOL. And if I ever miss him or get sad again, I’m going to listen to that VM and read those messages and remember how horrible of a person he’s chosen to become.

My STBWX came over an got his stuff. My dad was out there to monitor and had a word with him (well a few words calling my STBX out on his stuff), while my brother / mom were inside (behind a locked door) with me. But, he is now 100% OUT OF THE HOUSE! I have to say it’s a relief and feels great to reach that milestone.

I’m not exactly surprised about what happened, but at the same time I can’t believe he is saying and doing what he’s doing. My STBWX had just lost it, and it really is scary to see such a personality change compared to 6 months ago. And the anxiety it causes me is awful! My dad / brother are helping me change my WiFi network, change the garage codes, and installing ring camera videos, etc. this next week!

As for the idea of forgiveness --- I’m still working on this and whether or not I will ever forgive my STBWX. Right now he doesn’t deserve it!

[This message edited by Venus1 at 4:26 PM, June 8th (Tuesday)]

But, he is now 100% OUT OF THE HOUSE! I have to say it’s a relief and feels great to reach that milestone.

Yes yes yessssssss. SO nice when you can reclaim your space!

And GOOD JOB Venus on sticking to your guns. That's how it's done.

Now drop that mic and keep on keepin' on with your badass self!

Venus1,

Way to take charge! I am so sorry he is being so incredibly abusive. You do not deserve any of this.

How are the divorce mediation/settlement talks going? Hopefully, your legal team can protect your assets, especially since he is apparently having money problems and may want a quick settlement. Financing a cam whore is a tough (and expensive) job!

Good for you! It's been decades since my divorce, but to this day I remember the single thing that stunned me the most about the divorce process is how my EX absolutely turned on me, and treated me like I was the worst human being in the world. He left me and our child for his best friend's wife, totally ripped me off in the process, and I was the devil. It was virtually impossible to wrap my brain around. It is a truly scary transformation to watch.

I think it's wonderful that you had your family there as a support system. Make sure you get those codes changed and the ring doorbells. You haven't see the last of this jerk. He sees himself as the victim because you finally see him for what he is.

Wow. Just Wow. I didn't believe he would clear all his stuff out the first try because he's a Narc and doesn't want to lose control but... I didn't anticipate. Him demanding favors... Detail his car use your garage and water...and two weeks for you to house his trailer for him? If you had let that go it never would have ended.

“You thought I was mean before. You have just made this easy, so thank you.”

The truth is if he tries to make the divorce difficult you just need to slow things down. He's the one that's desperate for money right. He's the one that's spending a lot right now.

I still think you should talk to the OBS. It might be interesting to get his side of the story. He might not even know what's going on with his cam hor wife. There have been plenty of people on SI that only found out about the OM after the divorce.

Anyway, wanted to say great work on moving on.

I remember when you posted that he had a date and time for getting the rest of his stuff. I KNEW he'd try some shit with you and sure enough.. predictable narc behavior.

My favorite voicemail was the one that said, “That’s it you f*ing b!tch, I’m done with you. You don’t deserve my last name and you are finished as far as I’m concerned.” My favorite text said, “You thought I was mean before. You have just made this easy, so thank you.” I had to clean up his grammar for you SI, but these were the key messages. LOL. And if I ever miss him or get sad again, I’m going to listen to that VM and read those messages and remember how horrible of a person he’s chosen to become.

Tell you what though... I'd take those voicemails to my attorney and find out if they meet the legal standard as threatening, and if so, I'd file for an RO. He doesn't have any reason to come back to the house, but that won't necessarily stop him from claiming he can't find something or that something was broken and then accosting you at home or in town. Whatever you decide about that, I'd definitely start NC now. Any further communications would go through my attorney. What an asshat! Seriously, to call you names and take out his temper on you like that, after everything he's done. What a ridiculous, petty, little excuse for a man. You're better off, you know. Narcs get worse as they age.

((big hugs)) Really proud of you. You did great!

I give you a standing ovation Venus. Good job!!! Now I second Chamomiletea about review omg the voicemails, email s,etc...to see if it warrents a PO against him. Keep yourself protected and continue to send him the message that you aren't his punching bag anymore.

Last night I went out to get my hair done and to have dinner with friends. Had a wonderful time laughing and catching up! Now, I'm no where near ready to 'date', but felt incredibly flattered when the waiter gave me his number and said he'd like to take me out. I explained that I'm starting to go through a divorce and not ready for that kind of thing yet, but thanked him for the gesture.

Now, I don't know if any BSs have felt this way, but for the first time in 6 months I thought to myself "I'm not dead!". LOL. That that thing called 'attraction' didn't completely leave my body! I realized as I was going home that I hadn't thought about dating or sex or anything like that since D-day! Completely natural reaction when you are cheated on. But, I thought this guy was cute and flirted back with him and he gave me his number!

I figure that is a big step in the grand scheme of things because throughout the last 6 months I sort of felt like I didn't deserve another guy paying attention to me. Like I am 'damaged' or 'not sexy' or 'not beautiful' or 'not deserving' because my STBWXH cheated on me and is leaving me for the AP and I'm getting a D. It's totally screwed up how our minds do that to ourselves after infidelity, and how self-blame takes over and our self-esteem tanks into the pits of despair.

When I got home, I went to take the dogs on a quick walk before heading to bed. And there were flowers and a card on the front porch! They were from my STBWXH. To summarize, the card basically said that he realizes he hasn't been empathetic to me, that he regrets the last messages / voicemail he left me, that he recognizes that he has made things really difficult on me, that he hopes we can be friendly and cordial with each other and not fight, and that he is sorry for his recent behavior. He also mentioned that threatening with lawyers, alimony, etc. was wrong and that he will wait for me to move forward how I see best for us.

Now, I didn't cry or get overly emotional to the card / flowers. I sort of felt like 'too little, too late you jerk'. The old me would have accepted the flowers and apology and talked to him about why he behaved the way he did. Tried to work through the issue. The new me thinks this is just manipulation and another mechanism for him to 'keep in touch'. Maybe he does feel a little bad for how he's behaved, but he's not really sorry for what he's done! He is still lying to me, still leaving me for her, he is still being cruel beyond words -- he just wants to walk away from this without any guilt and without taking any responsibility. Because my accepting his apology means that he is further justified (in his mind) that what he did and is still doing is ok.

Respond or not respond? That is the question! What is the chess move here? Do I take advantage of the 'white flag' and acknowledge it (potentially keeping him calmer)? Or do I stay NC and ignore it?

Also, lots of discussions with the lawyer this week. More to come on that soon!

No hesitation : keep NC

You want to move forward, not in his direction

My vote would be to not respond. Did you feel like the message came from "him" or that he was told he F-ed up making threats and having a tissy-fit while the Divorce is ongoing?

If he did it on his own it's because he knows that he has lost all of his excuses to contact you and then blew it with his blow up. He's hoping that flowers and a card will rope you back in and he can visit as "friends". The ideal situation for him has always been to keep both you and her.

You don't want that. Full NC would be best for you. Even a simple Thank you will be interpeted as you accepting his apology. He has done way to much damage over the past six months for that. A thank you would also tell him that he could continue to contact you...

He may throw a fit because you don't respond but.. that's what he's been doing anyway. It will send a much clearer message that you are done with him and make your healing faster and easier.

Just my two cents.

No contact. Permanently (unless your lawyer is present).

His pattern was to stop by the house a few times each week to chat. See you. Tell himself you are all good b/c you are still friends and you “understand” what happened in your M.

Then it was he needed to come by the garage. He had tools or things he had to get. Again a selfish move used to keep in contact with you. Rid himself of any guilt.

Then you told him to stop 🛑 with the drop in. He was no longer welcome.

He then lost control. Of you. Of the situation.

The more you stand up to him the more enraged he becomes b/c he’s not able to control you. And it’s also about him not being able to come and go as he pleases from his home So he threw a grown man childlike temper tantrum!

I think you ignore the flowers. And the note. And the calls. And his attempts to make amends with you. It’s merely to rid himself of any guilt. And that is no longer your job. He’s on his own. Period.

He has to stop 🛑 relying on you and you’re kindness. You’ve been fired as his wife. And he now has to face his life and his future without you. You are not his safety net any longer.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 6:01 PM, June 12th (Saturday)]

I would toss the flowers directly in the trash bin and ignore. Remember, there are three settings for narc manipulation... charm, self-pity, and rage. He wants something. Maybe he's still hoping to use the garage at some point or he's thought of something he wants in the settlement that you're not obliged to give up. Maybe he needs to be "the nice guy" so he can feel justified in his actions. Whatever the case, it's HIS problem, not yours.

NC = No new hurts.

ETA: And good for you for getting out with your friends and flirting up a waiter. So proud of you!!!

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 6:18 PM, June 12th (Saturday)]