SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Don't let fear prevent you from getting yourself out of infidelity and to a more sustainable situation. You absolutely need to tell the OBS. You do that by showing her cam footage of her husband and your WW kissing and telling her your whole timeline. She will be an active participant if you want in helping you monitor these two shitheads going forward.

Additionally, your fear of alimony and support although is valid, should not prevent you from moving ahead. At the end of the day, the Judge will see that your wife is an educated and graduate degree corp woman capable of supporting herself. You need to remind her of that as well. They are not going to just let her stay home and not do shit for the next 17 yrs until retirement. She will be forced to work, whether you push her to, or the system does. They're not going to want to support her either. You've been married for 14 yrs, remember that the system now will usually only force you to pay alimony for half of that time, even in a long term marriage. But you have the advantage of that fact that your WW was a working professional, and not just a SAHM. That is big time.

I think the question you have to ask yourself is, are you willing to live this way, to stave off alimony and a potentially better life ahead.

My story is in some ways, similar to yours. My exWW was a beautiful professional. Her family life was a bit of a mess growing up, but her and her brother both graduated from 4 yrs of University and went on to get graduate degrees. She is fit and beautiful, but like your WW, she also had poor self esteem. I've told her many times, how much I appreciate her, how great she looks, how others envy her, our lifestyle, our kids. We really had on paper, a pretty damn good and clean life. We were the couple that others looked up to. She had friends, a great life and a supporting husband. I helped all around the home, in addition to being the breadwinner even with her 6 figure job. But woman are not men, and they really function thru their emotions. I was comfortable and happy. Little did I know, she wasn't. She never told me, not even a hint. She'd tell me about other relationships, what other people were doing, about others thinking about cheating, but not her. Never a clue. You cannot live a life where you wife won't tell you whats wrong, maybe she doesn't even know whats wrong. You cannot guarantee her happiness, or even if she can feel it.

Choices, are really what we have as humans. You had a choice, you chose not to cheat. Your WW also had choices. She could have chosen to work on herself, she could have chosen to believe you when you told her she was beautiful. You are now given a choice to either sit back and not do anything, or take the bull by the horn and push your way forward. I advise you to pick the latter. Your WW, like my WW may never get their, but at 50 yrs old you don't want to waste more time. Don't let fear, and what may or may not happen stop you from choosing a better way forward of you and your kids. Choices my friend. Everything will turn out fine, we've seen it time and again on this board. When you stay in limbo and don't pick to move forward, that too is a choice, and it never turns out well. You just waste more of your time and life being in a very miserable state. And no one has time for that shit, even when we're quarantining. I wish you well on this journey.

I'm terribly sorry you are here, but glad you found the courage to post. It takes working up to your nerve to do it, and I'm glad you are reaching out.

First, let me tell you -- and maybe others have already -- that your story is strikingly similar to mine. I'm fairly active in the JFO and other threads, and it is astonishing how much your experience lines up with mine. Same age etc. Same high demand job. Same with an overall good marriage and plenty of sexual passion. Same with being married to a very attractive woman.

I too was raised by a widowed mom until 10, then had an alcoholic, verbally/physically abusive stepfather. I, too, stood firm on the issue of divorce. Until recently, in fact.

I believe that the AP initiated and pursued WW, not that it matters.

No it doesn't matter and I'm glad you recognize this. Men are almost always the initiators of most relationships. There's a narrative that WW's tend to repeat often about being "preyed" upon that is just complete nonsense.

In late June, WW actually hosted a playdate at our house for our kids. AP and his wife brought the drinks. AP had the audacity to come into my house and shake my hand - in front of his own wife. Of course WW was complicit.

Had a very similar experience. In fact I considered the AP a friend, certainly more than an acquaintance.

My WW also had sex with AP in our home. I can only tell you unfortunately you will find this intentional disrespect (and let's be honest, that's what it is) is going to start eating at you routinely.

The fact that they didn't get a room or stick to the car bothers me for some reason - it was a needless risk, really stupid on one level, and intentionally disrespectful on another. I feel like this was about contempt. I could have walked in with the kids at any time while this was going on.

It bothers you because you intuitively understand what even many cheaters understand: you don't shit where you eat.

I am sickened by the idea of D, and shattered by what's happened. I have not completely ruled out D, but I don't think that's the right path at this minute - although I certainly appreciate first mover advantage.

Let me urge you NOT to rule out D. You are processing an enormous shock. You are traumatized. You have been subjected to emotional and physical abuse that is akin to rape (and no, that's not overstating it). Your body is or already has flooded with endogenous opioids to help numb you.

You're going to need some time to process. When you begin to think clearly, divorce is going to look very attractive to you for a very good, very rational set of obvious reasons. So don't rule it out.

We are carrying a significant amount of debt due to the move last year, plus two years of no income from WW, which means that D would be devastating financially and I hate to think of the impact on our kids - it's unlikely that either of us would be able to keep the house or remain in the same school district.

Are you sure we're not twins? Same here. In fact, off loading debt aggressively has been a major focus of mine the past several months. I keep telling people here on SI about the complexities of prepping for divorce with those headwinds. It's a lot. I'm sure you feel overwhelmed.

Here's the thing: I'm STILL getting divorced. I'm moving forward in the fact of all of that. It took me FOUR YEARS to finally get it through my head, I'm pretty stubborn. I already knew on D-Day it was a dealbreaker, I just didn't want to "break up my family." I'll be back later with some more detailed thoughts for you, but I should have listened to my inner voice right after D-Day. That's why I'm urging you NOT to take divorce off the table.

The toothpick in this shit sandwich is that we live in a small town. My daughter is friends with and in kindergarten with AP's daughter. There is no way to completely go NC with the AP. Soccer starts this Saturday, AP and/or AP's W will be there every week. And AP's W is basically WW's friend - they are not super close, but they are part of the same mom's group, book group, etc., and see each other almost daily at pickup/dropoff, etc. WW has declined to go 100% NC for fear of exposing everything. Major red flag, but if I put my foot down on this, WW will likely lose her social circle in this small town - which will impact our kids.

And ... this is bullshit.

Your WW is a liar. She's still lying. let me just lay this out for you: There is NO WAY you can keep this going without you falling apart. It is NOT tenable for your daughter to remain on the same soccer team. This is NOT going to work.

The OBS deserves to know everything RIGHT NOW. Do not delay on this.

Too bad if your WW loses her precious social circle. Too damn bad. This is step one in a series of bare minimum non-negotiables she must be willing to do. If she's not, it's GTFO. You have to be hard, friend.

Do you know what FINALLY precipitated me telling my WW last month I wanted a divorce in no uncertain terms? It was my son wanting to know the truth about why he can't playdates with his friend. This shit will NOT go away, man. It will haunt you.

Also couples therapy is HUGE mistake. HUGE! Please get out of this now! Gah, it's like watching myself all over again. Please learn from people like me, I'm begging you.

AP's W was at my house last Friday night for book group.

I mean .... what? What? How are you functioning, brother? This is completely unacceptable. This is crippling. Surely can see that. I think you are in deep shock and maybe can't even see why this is so offensive?

Fire your IC if they are telling you to not tell the OBS.

1. Tell the OBS right now. Everything. Expose, expose, expose.

2. Tell your WW's family - at least her parents. sounds like her sister already knows.

3. Demand a NC letter right now. A real letter.

4. Put a VAR in your WW's car and in your house. Make sure you start carrying a VAR around on your person to protect against fake DV charges.

5. Ask you WW to have the decency to go stay with her parents for at least a week to give you space. Failing that, ask her to leave the bedroom.

6. Demand she go back to work right now.

7. Demand a full STD panel from your WW and get one for yourself.

8. Demand a full written detailed timeline from your WW as an accounting for the activities of the affair.

9. Sign up for a polygraph to test the veracity of the timeline.

10. Fire your couples' counselor. Tell your WW there will NO couples counseling for the foreseeable future.

11. Demand she read Linda McDonald's book "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair"

Those are a few starters. Others will be along with more. If she won't do these things, then DIVORCE. Yes, it will be painful. Yes, you'll pay. Yes, you'll have less money.

But you will have your self respect and mental sanity. I almost lost mine.

This should really be moved to JFO so we can get you off on the right foot. So far you’re on the wrong foot. Not unusual. We all have started on the wrong foot.

You’re story is very similar to my own. You sound like a very reasonable, intelligent, introspective and empathetic guy. So, it’s important that you stop blaming yourself for any part of your WW’s affair and downfall. Self blame, taking responsibility for our partner’s actions is a futile effort that BSs employ to try and maintain some sense of control over the outcome, when-actually, we have zero control of an outcome dependent on the actions of two people. We have zero control over our WS’s actions, and especially, their state of mind. You only control you. You alone can not save this marriage. It doesn’t matter how much hold yourself accountable. It doesn’t matter how much YOU love HER. It doesn’t matter how committed YOU are. The only time R is ever truly successful is when the BS accepts this fact, steps back, and the WS does the heavy lifting.

My WW had years of deeply engrained insecurities that I too was constantly trying to compensate for and mitigate. My positive affirmations, compliments all became white noise after 22 years of marriage. Already predisposed, validation from a third uninvolved, uninvested younger party...was mind blowing for her, especially after certain life factors came into perfect alignment (midlife, post kids, sister cheating, enabling friends, marriage and motherhood doldrums)...

All of this is academic right now.

You currently have only two courses of action: D or Undecided. It’s too soon to “decide” on R. You really don’t know if either of you are candidates for R, or if that’s what either of you really want. Her actions and behaviors ongoing will determine if she’s a candidate for R, meets your needs for R. Your mindset ongoing will determine if you're receptive to R. The Undecided usually start down the road of R just to see where it might take them.

If you’re undecided-and most are, you must take certain fundamental actions and establish fundamental boundaries to preserve your safety and sanity. To name a few:

-Demand full N.C. That includes-if at all possible, the school nexus. Don’t make excuses. This must be done somehow even if it requires huge sacrifice on her behalf. If she resists-Red Flag.

-Demand full transparency. If she complains-Red Flag.

-Demand full disclosure. If she resists-Red Flag.

-STD Test. If she gripes-Red Flag.

-Talk with a lawyer. If you have enough Red Flags, draw up D papers. How many is enough? If you feel like you’re not being taken seriously. If you feel like you’re being played. If you feel liked she’s not getting it. If there’s still limerence with her AP. She’s in the fog. If you feel like R isn’t going to happen. If you feel like a door mat. If marital boundaries are not re-established. If you feel manipulated. Serve the papers. The service of D papers goes a long way towards making things real. Showing personal resolve, personal boundaries and self respect. The D process can always be rescinded when the time is right. WSs always underestimate their BSs and the act of adultery is the ultimate act of disrespect-especially when it’s right under your nose, under your roof!

D papers help to whip-shot respect right back at you with a court stamped, process served, sobering dose of legalese and forthcoming formidable consequences that just sucks the fun right outa infidelity and establishes who The Daddy is now.

-Don’t accept blame

-Don’t allow manipulation (Love Bombing, Sex Bombing, Threats)

-Don’t compromise yourself or your principles, or your dignity.

-Maintain composure-in her presence. Ok to show heartbreak and disappointment. Ok to be human. But watch the anger, and the desperation. Don’t beg. You’re the prize. You’re the good guy. You’re the victim. If she’s ever going to get you back, she’s gonna have to fight for it.

-IC for her and you. And, as others have said, WAY too premature for marital (couples) counseling.

Good luck my friend. What ever path you take, just make sure it’s a path that leads you out of infidelity, infidelity in all its forms.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 5:18 PM, September 14th (Monday)]

Don't take this the wrong way, but so what if you alienate your cheating spouse? By being so ambivalent and understanding, there are no consequences for her. She was expecting a hurricane and instead it's a pleasant cool breeze. She is doing nothing towards R based upon what you say. She is still being selfish - still concerned about how this affects HER life. What about you and the kids?

I think you need to set some firm boundaries and let her know in no uncertain terms that this is what you need her to do. If she chooses not to, then you know where you stand and what you have to do.

And absolutely contact the OBS. Compare notes. See what she knows. And make it clear to both WS that there is no contact - none - of any kind for any reason.

Good luck. We all know how difficult this is. I think you need to stop concerning yourself with how this affects her and focus on yourself and your kids. Will she be embarrassed when people find out? Will her social circle shrink? Will people look at her differently? Too bad. Shitty actions have consequences. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

Guideline violation removed.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:38 PM, Tuesday, September 15th]

You enforce your requirements by refusing to settle for less. You don’t need to beg, or plead or even to yell. You simply tell your WS what your boundaries and expectations are and explain calmly that if she cannot accept them then you won’t be able to continue as her H. I spent months trying to persuade my WH that my bottom line was right and proper, and got nowhere. Once I explained politely that he was free to disagree with me, but he wouldn’t be doing so as my H anymore, he got religion fast. It was pretty simple.

Lining up ducks means actually having a plan to accomplish your objective (an obtainable objective), at the moment you do not have this.

Whatever your objective/end game is/will be, it shall require you to shift the balance of power in your relationship to your favor. Your WW "declines" to go NC, this is the clearest example of how little you truly matter to her at this moment (perhaps always). She does not care about your pain, only hers, this will need to change.

Without shifting the power balance, the paradigm that you find yourself trapped by will not change. It will require discipline and strength to do this, take control of your life, or have life control and destroy you.

Perhaps the end result will be RC or divorce, but be honest yourself, either is better than what you have now....disrupt to status quo and shine the light on who she really is and there will be change.

Notify the other betrayed spouse, that is your first step out of infidelity.

Regardless do the right thing and notify the OBS. She has the right to know that her husband is sleeping with your wife.

Accountability and responsibilities my friend. So sorry you are in this situation.

One day at a time.

The other day I told her that she needs to take 100% ownership of her bad choice before we have any discussion about my 50% contribution to problems in our prior relationship. This escalated to a suicide threat in about 20 seconds. "You're going to hold this over me forever" etc. Doors were slammed, and off she drove

This is a complete lack of remorse. Already wanting to blame shift and deflect from her actions. I cannot tell you how many times my STBX said this (even while still in the A).

I would keep on the path of lining up ducks in case of D. Her reaction to this does not bode well for R.

Agree with others that you need to expose this to the OBS. This usually ends any chance of A continuing because all eyes are on the cheaters. Do not tell your WW you are going to tell the OBS this gives her the chance to contact AP to get their stories on the same page. Better to blindside the cheaters. The shock an awe effect is a great consequence as well.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 2:44 AM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

I'd like to communicate with the OBS, but attorneys and my IC are consistently against this. I'll continue to study..

Well they both suck and have made you an accomplice to your wife's affairs.

Do actual morals play any role in your world or do you just let the professionals in your life dictate every decision you make?

Your WW is currently humiliating this innocent woman, essentially making her an unwitting cuckold in front of the soccer parents AND the book club.

Thanks, all for much good feedback and reinforcement.

@HalfTime2017

Fear has been a prominent component in our relationship for a long time. I want to work to change this.

@Thumos

Brother from another mother. Uncanny. Yes, I'd like to connect. It might be a while before I hit the minimum message threshold, but I will take you up on your offer when I can.

The playdate thing - thank you.

STD tests for both of us underway.

@RealityBlows

My WW had years of deeply engrained insecurities that I too was constantly trying to compensate for and mitigate. My positive affirmations, compliments all became white noise after 22 years of marriage. Already predisposed, validation from a third uninvolved, uninvested younger party...was mind blowing for her, especially after certain life factors came into perfect alignment (midlife, post kids, sister cheating, enabling friends, marriage and motherhood doldrums)...

It's like you're reading my journal.

FWIW, my wife read Taddeo's "Three Women" last spring and thought it was life changing, more fuel on the fire.

Anyone who sees this book on the nightstand - take immediate action.

Taddeo is unabashedly pro infidelity - long before her best seller, she put an essay in Esquire titled "Why We Cheat" circa 2012.

Three Women has been optioned by Showtime, looking forward to many wives concluding an affair is the path to empowerment after this shitshow rolls on.

Everyone else: For now - Thank you.

[This message edited by AboveAverage7913 at 8:32 AM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

AboveAverage, I think you are stuck in a Mr. Nice Guy feedback loop.

Have you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy"?

I recommend it. Short read.

Also, you need to read "How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair" by Linda McDonald.

Lastly, I would recommend "The Way of the Superior Man" for some woo-woo slightly New Agey, but surprisingly effective advice that pairs well with "No More Mr. Nice Guy."

You can read all of these in practically one sitting on your Kindle or smart phone. And none of them require all of your attention, especially when it's hard to focus like right now. Please read asap.

I was stuck in a Mr. Nice Guy feedback loop, too. You are in danger of heading for an extremely painful limbo right now. It is hellish. I was in it for four years. Believe me, it's nowhere you want to be, but you are headed right for that iceberg.

One thing that shook me out of my stupor was the phrase "the beatings will continue until the morale improves." I thought of this sardonic phrase upon waking one morning and then also immediately thought of the poor denizens who remain chained through their own choices in Plato's cave, never seeing the real sun, always only seeing the shadows on the wall.

Think about it.

Your WW is extremely unremorseful, unrepentant for a violation of you that is akin to rape. Start getting righteously angry, my friend. Anger is not a toxic emotion when it is acknowledged and used the right way. It is not a secondary emotion. It is a primary emotion. Justified anger is certainly not toxic. You need justified anger right now. Not to lash out or do something you'll regret, but to fuel the right actions you need right now to get out of infidelity.

You've been given a to-do list. Are you acting on it? I assure you this SOP for getting out of infidelity no matter if you think you might want to reconcile later. You need to act fast, and the window is closing here.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:13 AM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

Taddeo is unabashedly pro infidelity - long before her best seller, she put an essay in Esquire titled "Why We Cheat" circa 2012.

Three Women has been optioned by Showtime, looking forward to many wives concluding an affair is the path to empowerment after this shitshow rolls on.

Unfortunately there's a ton of this quasi-feminist bullshit pervading our society right now. There's an entire subgenre of books extolling the virtues of empowering female infidelity -- and a regular rotation of feature articles in major publications valorizing female-centric polyamory.

It does a deep disservice to women and is at its heart actually quite misogynistic and anti-feminist. In any case, good to know. You've added another to our list along with Sandra Tsing Loh and Esther Perel.

If you’re wanting to salvage your marriage, it can be tempting to keep your WW’s actions a secret, especially in a small town. Not only are you justifying how exposing the A would negatively impact HER, you are likely also wanting to keep it quiet for your own sake. After all, it’s embarrassing for others to know you were cheated on by your wife, and aren’t immediately kicking her to the curb. I know I have struggled with that aspect in my own situation. At the end of the day, no matter which route you choose, you ultimately have nothing to be ashamed of. She was the broken one with the crappy morals. The only way we as betrayeds can ever be considered weak, is if we knowingly allow the infidelity to continue.

All that to say, even if makes zero sense to you right now, exposing the A to the OBS is the best thing you could do, no matter if you D or R. She deserves to know, especially since she was obviously suspicious. It’s torture when you know something isn’t right, but you are met with gaslighting and no definitive proof. Poor woman needs to know for her own mental health, as well as for her physical well-being. Also, affairs go underground all the time. They both get “smarter”. I don’t trust that she is at the place where if he wanted to continue, she would say no. Exposing would almost certainly keep that from happening, as he already dropped her like a hot potato (at least for now) when his wife started to get suspicious. I’ve found WHs don’t like the whole thing to be too much trouble, and most of the time don’t actually want to leave their wives. They’re pretty quick to discard their APs, which is a much needed wake up call for the co-conspirator.

She needs to face some consequences. As bizarre as it sounds, you are doing her a disservice letting her continue to live in fantasy land, where you can go have an A with a married man, and nothing bad comes of it. Nope, that is feeding the beast of delusion. She won’t truly change until that bubble has been burst.

You seem to be holding up pretty good for now, but I can’t imagine that lasting while there is still contact with the OM, even if it’s supposedly minimal. Wishing you strength!

Another item for your to-do list. I think it's very important that in addition to the other items, you need to go ahead and implement a hard 180 with your WW.

I mean hard, not soft.

If you don't know what that is, read about it here on SI in the Healing Library (in the sidebar).

"The Simplified 180" short article is a good start.

The 180 is a bit of a contradiction. Some versions are a bit happy-clappy for my tastes and create cognitive dissonance. The hard 180 is easier because it's simpler and swifter.

Right now you are most definitely caught up in a Mr. Nice Guy routine and you are doing a version of the pick-me dance.

The Mr. Nice Guy persona and the pick-me dance routines by men make women LOATHE men. It repulses women. They see weakness, and they aren't wrong.

WW's react predictably to the Mr. Nice Guy routine and pick-me dance by continually kicking you in the balls and laughing while doing it. Metaphorically of course (although it doesn't feel that way, does it?)

This is why your WW thinks it is just fine to invite the AP's wife over for a book club, was perfectly satisfied to fuck the AP in your own home and violate the sanctity of your personal space, why she won't do NC, etc.

Please for your own sake, STOP.

This may sound a little Cro-Magnon, but it also works: Start lifting heavy. Go with the Stoppani size protocol and hit the iron temple at least four days a week. Eat a clean diet. Make this a part of the 180 routine. Also as you start to gain some mass and lose the flab around the middle, go purchase some new outfits.

Just do it and stop over-intellectualizing. You will thank me later.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:29 AM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

I know I need to take action. I did catch the Patton quote in another thread here: "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." - I'm working toward good, not perfect. There is no perfect in this set of chaotic variables - that much is clear.

Some planning is required, but some planning is dithering. On DDAY and after I did a whole lot wrong, but that's because I didn't have people here on SI guiding me. You do. On DDAY at the very least I did get NC and told her family immediately. You haven't even done those things, and you ALREADY KNOW. D-Day has already happened. You're losing time. You need to act.

I'd like to communicate with the OBS, but attorneys and my IC are consistently against this. I'll continue to study...

No, you're doing it wrong. As Yoda says, "Do or do not. There is not try."

Stop trying and DO.

Any attorneys or IC's recommending against telling the OBS are going against what nearly every adultery/betrayal expert says. Exposure is necessary so the cockroaches flee.

We're not talking about something vindictive here. We're talking about a straightforward businesslike conversation you don't give your WW advance warning on.

You have information that you are basically obligated to share from an ethical standpoint. The OBS is being deprived of her autonomy and agency. Her free will is being violated, and this is in your hands, whether you like having the responsibility or not. She knows something is wrong in her marriage, she just doesn't know what.

And by dithering, you are also allowing the affair to continue. Yes, you read that right. If you think your WW and the AP have stopped now, you are sadly mistaken. The probability is very high that it has continued.

I also get the sense from reading here that you came in thinking maybe your situation was sort of unique somehow and that your wife is some kind of special. Neither is true, as you have already begun to learn. Cheaters aren't unique and they carry out a very predictable set of behaviors before, during and after affairs. We joke around here about a "cheater's handbook" because it is so nauseatingly repetitive. The sooner you get it through your head that SI has decades and decades of wisdom to share about your very common problem, the better.

[This message edited by Thumos at 9:40 AM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

You need to listen to Thumos hard on this one.

get worse before it gets better

This is not going to get better. All those posts and comments you are reading from BS here 5, 10, 20 or more years later. That is you looking in the mirror.