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WW exploded during our CT session today

Exploded how?

Sadly it does sound like she has a personality disorder. At least you have this as evidence to go for full custody of the kids and definitely get a VAR for when you are around her.

AA: As I understand your calculus, you've built a life for your family that includes a nice house that affords access to a favorable school district, a slate of fulfilling extracurriculars for the kiddoes (I was a many-years soccer dad so I know that cycle intimately), and a certain social cache, all within the environment of Harper Valley (gossipy small town).

Blowing up the A by exposing it threatens a lot of that, and divorcing threatens all of it.

However, what you're proposing, distilled to its essence, is sucking it up 100% by yourself specifically to preserve those superficial life's trappings. Maybe that's worth it to you, but you should at least be honest with yourself that this is what you're doing.

Speaking personally, if it were me and I were contemplating staying to preserve the school district part, I would not agree to carry 100% of the burden of my wife's infidelity. I would expose it publicly so she would at least carry that part of the burden herself.

The added layer to your cake is your loco WW. Suck it up and stay married and I promise you a lifetime of walking on eggshells. Maybe that's worth it to you to maintain this socio-economic opportunity for the kiddoes. Is it?

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 8:39 AM, September 17th (Thursday)]

I wrote before you told us about the explosive anger at the therapist's office that you were seeing the REAL woman you married, instead of the idealized version you've had in your head. Now she's demonstrated what I said in pretty stark terms on top of her infidelity.

This is who she is. It's who you married. Are you good with that? That's really the basic question you need to be asking yourself.

Consider everything you're dealing with as a series of concentric rings. The adultery is in the very center. It is the penultimate violation of your free will. Outside of that pinpoint is the next layer, which is her dysfunctional personality. Then other layers out from that are considerations like your town, your home, the impact of divorce on your kids.

But the center is the ultimate question here: Now that she has shown you who she REALLY is, do you want to be married to this person any longer?

You are not obligated to shackle yourself to the source of your pain.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:27 AM, September 17th (Thursday)]

AA,

You wrote, Two years ago, WW quit her job. She was part of the management team at her company, but often took small changes very personally and in a negative way. When she quit, her explanation was "they pushed me out" - absolutely not the case.

I would question why she left, was it because of a work affair, or multiple affairs? Was her office then kind that is accommodating and tolerant of affairs.

I would also question if your WW is a serial cheater who now just got caught for the first time.

Her explosion make me suspect she is a serial cheater, people often explode when their lies are exposed, or when others question their lies when they know there is much more they want to hide.

It's not uncommon for someone to discover that their spouse has a whole ecosystem of cheating.

Get a polygraph and don't allow your WW to chose the questions or the examiner.

[This message edited by survrus at 10:56 AM, September 17th (Thursday)]

Thanks, all, for concern and support yesterday.

I don't have time to respond to each comment, but I've read everything at least once, probably twice.

A few points for reference:

STD:

tests came back negative

VAR:

illegal in MA. that said, I do have security cams in the house - in fact the cam footage was DD evidence

Notify OBS:

I have been working toward R, while studying options for D in case R is not achievable. I believe that informing OBS could accelerate D. I hear the chorus here loud and clear - and while I take this advice seriously, I have also received very strong counter arguments from professionals with real names vs. screen names (no disrespect intended - but let's face it - it makes a difference). I won't take a position here other than to say everything remains on the table.

WW's family

I am in direct communication with WW's sister, who is exceedingly rational and supportive. I have no illusions that if push comes to shove, WW's sister will be on WW's side.

NC letter

WW has agreed to do this.

Timeline

I have this from WW and from my own IT sleuthing. Stories match. No need for poly.

CT

Basically out of the equation after yesterday's events. If anyone has a specific reco for CT resources in MA - ideally a recovery specialist - you have my full attention

So what went down yesterday?

I pushed WW to agree to a recovery plan. She felt backed up against a wall, made a number of statements about self harm, refused to come back to the table, and the CT called 911.

The aftermath included direct communication between me and WW's sister and WW's IC. Very productive.

Now WW has seen the door to the psych unit, does not want to cross the threshold, and is coming back to the table ready to talk.

Some pre-conditions have been set, which she has accepted.

I don't think WW has full tilt BPD, but she definitely has some traits which contribute to and complicate everything we need to address, for R or D.

For those of you who advocate D - I literally cannot pay the retainer to file. Or I can choose between the next mortgage payment or filing. WW is not going to waltz into mediation, and as noted my preference is to pursue R.

If boundaries are established, I will pursue R with eyes wide open and a contingency plan.

WW exploded yesterday in response to boundaries - but later came around. Progress? Soccer is off the menu, NC (or at least the best we can do short of moving tomorrow) agreed and in process, more TBD.

In terms of my own attitudes toward infidelity: I know this will be incompatible with how others here may feel, and I agree that infidelity of any kind is bad - however In my case I'm far more concerned about the EA than the PA. WW fucked a guy four or five times over an 8 week period. During this time she continued to have sex with me. We've both had other partners prior to marriage. I'm not prude about sex, or threatened by the fact that she's had another penis in recent months. Make no mistake, it makes me want to puke - but I'm fairly secure in my ability to satisfy my wife, even now.

The real killer, for me, is the EA, and the lies, and the accompanying trust issues.

Thanks, all, for reading along.

[This message edited by AboveAverage7913 at 11:22 AM, September 17th (Thursday)]

Thanks for the update.

WIthout the polygraph the timeline is practically a worthless piece of paper. You may think you know everything. You probably don't.

We hear this pushback often from BH's and I'll warn you the majority of time it doesn't turn out well and there's a DDAY 2. If she will voluntarily disclose with some pressure points from a polygraph, that's better than finding out after the fact.

Polys are not a panacea and they aren't without flaws. But they are an incredibly effective tool for getting the truth. So you're unilaterally leaving a very effective tool on the table you could be using right now as part of the shock and awe.

Survrus is right to suspect there's more to the story about her unilaterally leaving the management team of a company. Much more. You know this or you wouldn't have brought it up.

Do what you will on telling the OBS. We're just telling you what works. I've never had a professional tell me not to tell the OBS. And this is the very first time I've seen this advice to a BS on any thread here on SI. It's odd.

And dude, VARs are illegal everywhere. 😂 no one here is suggesting you disclose the fact you're using one! Incidentally, I had several attys tell me that only an insane judge would punish a betrayed spouse who used a VAR simply to get at the truth. VARs are common. How many headlines have you seen lately about a betrayed spouse being punished for using one? Yeah, exactly.

In most states carrying a VAR on your own person to record a conversation you are participating in is not illegal, and it will protect you from a false DV charge. Your very unstable genius of a wife sounds like a prime candidate for falsely accusing you of domestic violence, especially now that she's visited the psych ward and it's on her record.

Telling her sister is not enough. Her parents need to know. She should be given no redoubt for spreading a false narrative about why your family is in trouble. Again, feel free to discard this advice. We're just telling you what works.

I will say again: Go find a BETRAYAL TRAUMA SPECIALIST in your area for IC for yourself and for your wife. Each to an individual counselor with this specialty. There are several listed in geographic areas in the sidebar here on SI "Find a Local Counselor"

As far D vs R, only you know your own situation. As you say, we're anonymous keyboard warriors. That said, we've all been through it and know all the usual tricks and twists and turns. Not much surprises most of us. It is remarkable how unremarkable and how common most situations are. Now if you can't afford to divorce, you can't afford it. I can't really afford it right now, or at least I told myself that several months ago. But I started "lining up the ducks" to get 'er done, and now I'm proceeding. Just sayin'

Where there's a will there's a way. Filing for divorce doesn't mean you actually have to get the divorce. But it does create an entirely new dynamic that flips the script immediately.

It may be that you need more beatings about the head and shoulders from your dysfunctional wife for your morale to improve to the point where you're willing to shake off the shackles, walk out of Plato's cave and look around at the sunshine a bit.

We've all been there. Hang in there.

P. S. I am very sorry about the cam footage. That can't be unseen.

[This message edited by Thumos at 11:39 AM, September 17th (Thursday)]

I have also received very strong counter arguments from professionals with real names vs. screen names

This site represents a giant crowdsourced reservoir of cumulative experience with infidelity and its aftermath. The overwhelming opinion here is that informing the OBS is a fundamental, basic item that should not even be a question.

There have been countless threads where a BS's therapist advises the BS NOT to inform the OBS. It's almost "therapist 101" to give this advice. Why? Because therapists see it as a "win" if they can keep the married couple married, even just for another day, another week, another year. Duct tape, chicken wire, chewing gum, whatever they can use, including rug-sweeping and blame-shifting and avoiding the hard conversations. This therapist approach is so cliche. It comes from a fundamental lack of understanding of the trauma a BS experiences. Let's face it; the bar to becoming a therapist is pretty low.

I believe that informing OBS could accelerate D.

In other words, your WW is crazy enough to cut off her own nose to spite her face, and as a result you are walking on eggshells hoping you can "nice" your WW into staying married to you. As I said above, that's a legitimate choice and many people make the same choice, but you should at least be honest with yourself that this is what you're doing. All of your talk about boundaries and such is pretty much bluster. You negotiate from a position of strength if you have options. For a BS, D is the only option. You have eliminated your option.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 3:28 PM, September 17th (Thursday)]

I guess the AP and his W don't have much recourse in this situation, so the main thing would be alienating my WW.

Alienating her from them? Or from you.

AA I cannot see how much more your WW could be alienated from you. She's been banging another guy.

I get that you feel very sophisticated and enlightened about sex. That's great. The Cro Magnon homunculus hulking somewhere in your brain feels differently -- as you are about to find out.

In any case, however you say you feel about your WW accidentally tripping and falling on another man's dick, the fact is you deserve to have intimate physical relations with a woman who hasn't intentionally sullied herself and betrayed you.

You deserve sex that is good, honest, pure and highly pleasurable.

Regardless of whether you're a product of the sexual revolution (and both of us are about the same age, so we are), you deserve these things as a man and as a human being.

Don't tell yourself stories that have you settling for second best or sloppy seconds.

Think about it.

Basically out of the equation after yesterday's events. If anyone has a specific reco for CT resources in MA - ideally a recovery specialist - you have my full attention

So what went down yesterday?

I pushed WW to agree to a recovery plan. She felt backed up against a wall, made a number of statements about self harm, refused to come back to the table, and the CT called 911.

The aftermath included direct communication between me and WW's sister and WW's IC. Very productive.

Now WW has seen the door to the psych unit, does not want to cross the threshold, and is coming back to the table ready to talk.

Some pre-conditions have been set, which she has accepted.

I don't think WW has full tilt BPD, but she definitely has some traits which contribute to and complicate everything we need to address, for R or D.

For those of you who advocate D - I literally cannot pay the retainer to file. Or I can choose between the next mortgage payment or filing. WW is not going to waltz into mediation, and as noted my preference is to pursue R.

If boundaries are established, I will pursue R with eyes wide open and a contingency plan.

WW exploded yesterday in response to boundaries - but later came around. Progress? Soccer is off the menu, NC (or at least the best we can do short of moving tomorrow) agreed and in process, more TBD.

Do you see what is fundamentally flawed here? YOU are the one pushing her to do all these things, when she should be the one eagerly volunteering to do these things. You still don't seem to get that your WW is stonewalling. She is wallowing in guilt and trying to find a way out to save face and save her marriage. Your well-being doesn't factor into it. All she cares about is trying to delay or prevent you from divorcing her. She doesn't give a shit about how you are feeling. She really doesn't. If she did, her actions would be showing you she cares.

[This message edited by Westway at 11:55 AM, September 17th (Thursday)]

For those of you who advocate D - I literally cannot pay the retainer to file. Or I can choose between the next mortgage payment or filing. WW is not going to waltz into mediation...

I don't typically advocate for D, but in your case.. I would make an exception. The fact that your WW can sit there and look the OBS in the eye after she fucked that woman's husband and then make small talk about books or whatever is absolutely chilling. She has no integrity, no honor, and no drive apparently to achieve either. Allowing her to get away with that will bring you nothing but pain because she has no impetus to change.

You basically have four choices after an infidelity is revealed:

1) Reconciliation

2) Trying for Reconciliation

3) Trying for Divorce

4) Divorce

You've said that option #4 won't work because you don't have the money. Maybe consider option #3? Spend time getting your ducks in a row so you can purge this horrible specimen from your daily life. I can't even imagine trying to reconcile with someone of such evil selfishness, and I don't say this lightly. I am all about R when the WW is willing and capable, but as long as your WW is protecting her lover and LYING to that innocent BW, she's got nothing to work with.

The worst outcome after an infidelity isn't divorce, it's staying married to an unrepentant cheater.

In other words, your WW is crazy enough to cut off her own nose to spite her face, and as a result you are walking on eggshells hoping you can "nice" your WW into staying married to you. As I said above, that's a legitimate choice and many people make the same choice, but you should at least be honest with yourself that this is what you're doing. All of your talk about boundaries and such is pretty much bluster. You negotiate from a position of strength if you have options. For a BS, D is the only option. You have eliminated your option.

BFTG just kinda cut the Gordian knot here. You're doing a version of the pick me dance. You'll get tired of hopping around on a hot plate soon enough -- and we will still be here to help you.

Look after your kids and try to sleep and drink plenty of water. I'm very sorry you are in this situation. You are strong enough to handle it though, even if you are feeling overwhelmed.

The fact that your WW can sit there and look the OBS in the eye after she fucked that woman's husband and then make small talk about books or whatever is absolutely chilling. She has no integrity, no honor, and no drive apparently to achieve either.

Damn, if Chamomile Tea is advocating for you to strongly consider divorce, you'd better listen brother. I may have seen her do this before, but if so I missed it.

Chamomile is one of the most balanced and empathetic posters we have on here, and she has pulled me back from some of my worst impulses from time to time -- and she and I don't agree a lot.

I too was absolutely gobsmacked your WW had the unmitigated gall -- really almost anti-social cruelty -- to bring this poor woman into your home for a chat about books. It's sickening.

Please do think about the fact that you are allowing this poor innocent woman to swing in the wind by not telling her.

I get that you feel very sophisticated and enlightened about sex. That's great. The Cro Magnon homunculus hulking somewhere in your brain feels differently -- as you are about to find out.

Not necessarily. Yeah, the sex hurt, and badly, when my WH cheated, but in contemplation of R, I realized the same thing. I'm not some prim little pilgrim who can't deal, so it wasn't a deal-breaker. I just wish the OP had a better candidate. You can't work R without honesty, and I can't imagine how sick to my stomach I would be watching my WH interact with an OBS like he hadn't done anything wrong. As BS, we need to KNOW that our WS has lost his/her taste for subterfuge and wants to live in the light.

Chamomile Tea, I meant that some reactions are conscious in the forebrain and can be talked through and typed through and therapized -- and some are down there deep in the recesses of the hindbrain and have to be felt through.

And they can be very contradictory, particularly if you're telling yourself a story that the homunculus cave man thinks is shit.

He can tell himself one story, but his brain may have different things in mind (no pun intended). I think this is common enough as an experience that I wanted to warn him.

you are walking on eggshells hoping you can "nice" your WW into staying married to you. As I said above, that's a legitimate choice and many people make the same choice, but you should at least be honest with yourself that this is what you're doing. All of your talk about boundaries and such is pretty much bluster. You negotiate from a position of strength if you have options.

Our willingness to walk away from a recalcitrant WS is the ONLY leverage we have. And BTDT is correct when he tell you that you can't "nice" your way to a healthy recovery. Your WS needs to CHANGE. She's not going to do that while you're doing your best "pick-me cha-cha". As BS, we approach R from the one-up position, where the WS is conforming to our demands rather than vice versa. The eventual goal is a return to equal partnership in the marriage, but that doesn't happen until/unless the WS remediates the flaws in their character which allowed them to say "yes" to perfidy. They chase us, not the other way around. And if they choose not to, we KNOW that they are inferior candidates for true recovery.

Chamomile Tea, I meant that some reactions are conscious in the forebrain and can be talked through and typed through and therapized -- and some are down there deep in the recesses of the hindbrain and have to be felt through.

And they can be very contradictory, particularly if you're telling yourself a story that the homunculus cave man thinks is shit.

He can tell himself one story, but his brain may have different things in mind (no pun intended). I think this is common enough as an experience that I wanted to warn him.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree. My experience on this has been different. It's not that people like me don't care about the sex. We very much do. It's just that we're able to put it in a context we can work through. I'm not alone in that. If I was, nobody but me would be in R.

** Posting as a member **

You get 2 types of advice from SI. Some people have a hammer and think every problem is the same type of nail. Some people do their best to ask questions and make points that aim to help you find your path through the wilderness of recovering from infidelity.

Your path won't be absolutely unique, but you're not going to find out how it's similar and dissimilar to anyone else's path until you're through it.

In a real sense, you're on your own - and, after all, only you can live your life. Other people can't live it for you.

*****

I have little faith in the polygraph, for 2 main reasons. First, and most important, I think people can learn to be better lie detectors than machines can be. That's why the operator is so important. How do you vet the operators, other than by talking with them and using one's own lie detecting abilities?

Second, while a poly can be useful if there's one point in your WS's story that would be a deal killer, if you can't trust yourself to recognize the truth and you can't trust your WS to tell the truth, you're probably not yet ready to R.

That doesn't mean D is the only choice open to you. If you and your WS do the necessary work, 'not yet ready to R' morphs into R.

*****

Some men recognize that the typical male first reaction to sexual betrayal is dysfunctional. The lizard brain has spoken, has been listened to, and is satisfied with the fact that betrayal isn't a capital crime.

*****

Having written the above, AA, you talk about R as if you're close to it. I think you are far from R at this point.

R requires total commitment from both partners. Your W needs to want to change from betrayer to good partner, and she has to do a lot of work.

If her brain chemistry is messed up, she has to decide to get treatment and stay in treatment, whatever the side effects may be. Whether her brain chemistry is messed up or not, she'll have to identify and change the dysfunctional self-talk upon which she's built her sense of the world. (Self-talk is the metaphor that makes sense to me, but other people use different metaphors.)

I don't read that she's committed to doing the necessary work. Without that commitment, if you choose to stay with her, the best you can hope for is to take care of yourself and let her be herself.

R is never guaranteed to be successful. If you ever do enter R with your W you have a long road. The road could bring a lot of joy. It will bring lots of hard work.

So if you go for R, do so with your eyes wide open. It's not a walk in a park on a nice day.

I do not mean to imply that leaving is easy. Not only do you have to deal with the financial issues; you also have to deal with internal and inter-personal issues, and you may also have to deal with leaving someone who can't take care of herself. But sometimes, leaving and dealing with the personal and inter-personal issues is the best option.

Closing with that thought may imply that I think it's your best option, so I'll close with: you know your sitch a lot better than I do. You seem to be aware you have multiple options. Have faith in yourself to make a good choice.

I don't think WW has full tilt BPD, but she definitely has some traits which contribute to and complicate everything we need to address, for R or D.

AA, if you can sit there with a straight face and believe that your WW would not be diagnosed with a serious mental health condition and that repeatedly threatening suicide and self harm every time she is called out is not completely out of the norm for human behavior, your aptitude for knowing what is and is not normal is broken. There is nothing even close to functioning about your WW as a person, a parent, a wife, and an adult if her response to difficult situations is to fly off the handle and threaten self harm. If anything, you are under reacting to this probably because she does this over and over again without any real attempt at her life YET.

Whether it's BPD or something else, your WW has some form of serious mental health condition that needs to be fully addressed before you can even think about R. That is for a professional to determine. Not you. You don't need to meet every single criteria listed for BPD to have BPD and in fact, most people with that condition, do not meet the full list. A professional will determine which criteria are most important and if she fits it enough for a diagnosis.

If she can't get a grip on herself and come to the table as a functioning adult, she can't R with you. She will either always be unstable, will demonize you to the point of wanting D, will escalate her abuse and manipulation, and/or she will cheat again. Make no mistake - throwing out threats of self harm and suicide without any plan to follow through IS a form of abuse and manipulation because the real goal is to shut you up when you are upset about the other abuse (i.e. infidelity) she has impressed on you. There is no good outcome where your WW just suddenly snaps out of it and becomes stable and mature enough for this not to end in a dumpster fire without the guidance of a professional. Even then, the stats are not in your favor. We get BHs who desperately want to R with a WW with a personality disorder much like her from time and time and all of them are D because it's very difficult for her to get the immediate psychiatric help she needs and pull through in a way that is safe and conducive to R for you. Understand that this is a real uphill battle and even if you want R, you need to protect yourself and your children as if you may D. The risk is high and the people most likely to suffer the consequences of your WW going off the deep end are your children. They need THE most protection which may mean limited exposure with your WW while she is unsafe and unstable regardless of what is going on R/D wise. Meet with a lawyer just for information if you have not already.

That said, what is her safety plan? Who is she seeing for IC? Have they expressed a potential diagnosis and follow up treatment plan or is that even on their radar right now?