SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I've been lurking for a bit - Although this is my first post, I'm already grateful to this community. Thanks for being here.

me: BH M49

WW F46

Married 14 years.  Together 25 years.

3 kids, D5, D9, D12

AP M32

2 kids, D2, D5

Our D5s were in pre-k and are now in Kindergarten together...

I was raised by a single mom, never knew my father - parents divorced when I was an infant. I've known since I was very young that I did not want divorce to be a part of my life, or a legacy for my kids. Current situation:

WW's parents divorced due to her F's affair, she has been a staunch critic of infidelity throughout our relationship. The English Patient? Terrible film. Tiger Woods? Not a good golfer.

Our relationship has not been perfect, however we have/had a strong underlying foundation and a shared vision of the future. Externally, we are often considered an ideal couple.

My wife has suffered from depression and anxiety her entire life. She also has past unresolved trauma - her parents' divorce, some unsatisfying formative sexual experiences from high school - possible abuse - Likely dysmorphia, preceded by an eating disorder, and accompanying low self esteem.

All that said - She is a beautiful woman, very attractive, very fit - but doesn't know it, or doesn't let herself know it. She is super high functioning and can be brilliant when not self-sabotaging. Graduate degree, professional career (until sabotaged). Whenever I've told her that she's beautiful or looks good, she usually contradicts me with "my face is fat" or "I am fat" etc. I never truly learned how to strike the right balance between giving her space to work through issues, vs. providing positive support vs. actually making her feel valued and appreciated by me. Not for lack of compassion or interest on my part - but rather from lack of success. Along the way, I think my WW's moods became like weather - out of my control, but the good days have generally balanced the bad ones. And my presence has been increasingly devalued.

Two years ago, WW quit her job. She was part of the management team at her company, but often took small changes very personally and in a negative way. When she quit, her explanation was "they pushed me out" - absolutely not the case. Our combined income took a hit, she contributed @ 25-30% to our total net, but spending habits did not change. She became super resistant to discussing the budget - avoiding any accountability. I sucked it up, i.e., took on debt.

A year ago we moved to a new town. We had been shopping for a larger house for a long time. We found our dream house - not 100% perfect, but the perfect place to raise our kids, with great schools, a good community, lots of beauty all around, and a few years of improvement projects to look forward to. Then in December, I received a major promotion at work that required a lot of time and attention. And then the pandemic hit. My wife took it really hard - she felt very isolated, and often communicated it in harsh terms - and I did not have the ability to put her at ease. There were arguments - pointless positional arguments about money, priorities. I was suddenly getting up at 5am to deal with business in Europe (vs. flying to Europe), and then passing out, exhausted by 9pm. On nights when I was not asleep by 9, WW was typically binge watching Netflix. Throughout the winter and spring, we continued to look forward to weekends, we never stopped having sex, and I did my best to be supportive - always helping with the kids, breakfast, laundry, bath time, story time, etc., every single day.

None the less, I recognized that something wasn't right, something needed to change. I have always been a road warrior, and I think part of our relationship was regulated by my travel - and time apart. Suddenly we were together 24/7, and it was not automatically sunshine and rainbows. My WW was frequently distraught over the pandemic's impact to our kids, as well as her inability to get to the gym - always a big part of her routine. Without the distraction of constant travel, I was finally able to focus on our relationship and begin to see how I contribute to unproductive dynamics.

In hindsight, to say that we processed this time differently would be an understatement.

I took a long hard look at myself, recognized that I wanted to change and improve, and engaged a therapist. I told my WW about my self work, I wrote her a love letter, I reaffirmed a shared vision for our future. She responded with interest and also some skepticism, which was initially confusing but it was actually a red flag. I had expected that she would melt and we would improve our relationship.

What I've come to understand is that almost in parallel, WW connected with her AP.  He is the father of our youngest daughter's school friend. WW and AP met via a Facebook Group for pre-k parents, which my WW did not share with me ("not many fathers participate" - just one in particular...), and I have very low interest in FB.  This turned to meeting for coffee sometime in May (so much for distancing), and became PA 2-3 weeks later.  I believe that the AP initiated and pursued WW, not that it matters.

In early June they met for coffee and then did the deed in the back of his SUV in an empty parking lot. Over the next ~6 weeks, they hooked up 4-5 times.

In late June, WW actually hosted a playdate at our house for our kids. AP and his wife brought the drinks. AP had the audacity to come into my house and shake my hand - in front of his own wife. Of course WW was complicit. I actually noticed AP check out WW's ass right in front of me, as she walked upstairs while giving them the tour...

Between early June and late July, WW and AP usually met for sex in the SUV. They also met up once at WW's AP's house when AP's W was away, and once at our house at a time when WW had orchestrated time for me to take our kids canoeing for the afternoon.  AP parked in front of our house, let himself in, and kissed WW goodbye about 40 mins later - all on cam footage.  That was the smoking gun.

The fact that they didn't get a room or stick to the car bothers me for some reason - it was a needless risk, really stupid on one level, and intentionally disrespectful on another. I feel like this was about contempt. I could have walked in with the kids at any time while this was going on.

Leading up to DD all the signs were present, and I'd lightly confronted my wife a few times over the prior month or so:

- she was dressing more confidently - I actually liked it, and let her know

- constantly on FB messenger, even at dinner w/ kids (we have a strict no-phones at dinner policy)

- shaved vj for the first time in a while, but not presented as something for me as she's done in the past, it was more like an after thought "oh you like it?"

- we were still having sex throughout, in fact more than ever as the kids were out of the house in July at camp - often initiated by WW

- stayed out extra extra late after book group with a new group of friends once or twice

DD was Aug 13, one month ago - in the middle of a sleepless night, I put 2+2 together and found the cam footage ("what was really happening that day I took the kids canoeing?"). Gut punch.

My view is:

AP is a player, WW totally fell for it. He admitted to her that he's done this before. That doesn't excuse anything. We had all of the weaknesses and vulnerabilities in our relationship in place, and somehow his timing was perfect. My own timing re self work and love letters, etc., was a few weeks or a few years too late.

I made a vow, in sickness and in health, and I want to support the mother of my kids in some form of recovery - although I've not been particularly good at this in the past. She is my life partner and co-parent no matter what, our kids are still young, I don't see an upside to scorched earth. I also need time to continue my own therapy, which now has a new focus.

I am sickened by the idea of D, and shattered by what's happened. I have not completely ruled out D, but I don't think that's the right path at this minute - although I certainly appreciate first mover advantage.

We are carrying a significant amount of debt due to the move last year, plus two years of no income from WW, which means that D would be devastating financially and I hate to think of the impact on our kids - it's unlikely that either of us would be able to keep the house or remain in the same school district.

That's not the right reason to reconcile, but there's more... The toothpick in this shit sandwich is that we live in a small town. My daughter is friends with and in kindergarten with AP's daughter. There is no way to completely go NC with the AP. Soccer starts this Saturday, AP and/or AP's W will be there every week. And AP's W is basically WW's friend - they are not super close, but they are part of the same mom's group, book group, etc., and see each other almost daily at pickup/dropoff, etc. WW has declined to go 100% NC for fear of exposing everything. Major red flag, but if I put my foot down on this, WW will likely lose her social circle in this small town - which will impact our kids.

WW has apologized multiple times and recognizes that she made a mistake, however there has been relatively low remorse and a fair amount of limerence. I see this as fairly consistent with her pattern of avoidance on any high stress issue. She's also started some blame shifting. "What about all the problems that led up to this?" etc.

We started couples therapy almost immediately after DD, and WW has also started her own therapy. So far, results are mixed - good sessions and not so good sessions.

On some level, I can envision forgiveness - WW attracted a much younger guy, who gave her confidence a huge boost, at least for a bit. But now we are dealing with the aftermath, and the underlying problems are laid bare, and I'm not sure I can trust her again. Especially down the road when I need to travel again. WW also tried to flip the script and say she assumed that at some point I must have had something on the side after all these years of travel. Nope. Never happened.

WW has confided in her sister (who has advised caution throughout), and also a relatively new friend who was an acquaintance just a few months ago. This friend is also in her late 40s, 2 kids with a long term domestic partner who is always on the way out, and supported by her parents... i.e., the worst possible sounding board for advice. My take is that this friend loves the drama, validates her own bad choices (she's cheated on her DP), and is an enabler to WW.

In terms of hard truths, I have to say that if $ was no issue, D might be on the table, if only as a protective measure / force function. I know it's early innings based on some of the other stories I've read here, but so far I've failed to set boundaries - can't go NC, can't cut off the enabler, can't seem to align on anything that resembles "whatever it takes" - AP's W was at my house last Friday night for book group. WW has compartmentalized - big time.

In some ways, it seems like the only reason that the affair has ended is because AP wanted it to - he was getting heat from his wife, according to WW. AP has no idea I know. All attorneys and counselors advise against confrontation, contrary to the popular mantra here and elsewhere to notify the AP's spouse.

At the moment, I'm working to get ducks lined up. The current situation doesn't feel sustainable. I've yet to speak with an attorney that I want to engage - they all tell me to prepare for max alimony and child support here in MA (no fault state).

Trying to strike a balance between self respect and preservation vs. being fully present and effective for my three daughters. Hard to envision doing that with < 50% custody, if WW's priority is banging younger dudes to attempt to address her self esteem issues...

Thanks for reading.

gently, why are you here?

you can’t get out of infidelity if your wife still has contact, let alone survive it.

am sure some seasoned people will come along with more advice shortly but in the meantime:

*your wife should go back to work, that will assist with financials should this become a dealbreaker for you, plus it pays down debt.

*you wife needs to go NC with all that are involved.

*find other activities for your kids that don’t involve AP’s family.

*perhaps change schools

If you're "lining up ducks", why not line them up for BOTH options, R or D. That way, you can cook along and see what works and what doesn't, then choose freely based on what you really want for your future.

So far, on the R side, you're seeing a therapist and that's good. But your WW still hasn't accepted 100% responsibility for the lack of character which allowed her to say "yes" to perfidy. You don't control her integrity. You didn't make her cheat. The marriage didn't make her cheat. She CHOSE it. And she can't remediate what's wrong in her core values system if she can't accept that the cheating is all on her. She should definitely turn over all her passwords to emails, apps, etc. and be on board for you checking up on her. Her word isn't good anymore. Hell, you can have her write a timeline of her affair and polygraph her to make sure there weren't other. Ask for whatever you need to make you feel a little more safe.

On the D route... see an attorney. Find out what your financial situation might look like if you decide D is best. You might also talk to a financial planner and see how you might manipulate your figures today into something more viable next year. Definitely your WW should go back to work, full time and earning up to her top potential. That will also minimize your expenses if you choose to divorce, as well as give her something to do besides fucking around.

And I would tell the AP's wife what's happened. It's completely unfair of your WW to have her into your home while everyone else knows. Your WW doesn't deserve a nice social situation right now, and it's an unkind thing to do or to ask you to be complicit in. One of the things a WS needs to learn quick pace is that their lies will no longer be tolerated, papered over, or protected no matter WHAT the cost. If she becomes notorious in the community, that's the cost of fucking other people's husbands. She'll learn very quickly NOT to do that again, and you'll have an extra set of eyes making sure they don't start back up.

It's best to just rip the band-aid off an do it. Don't warn your WW first, just pick up the phone, call the OBS (other betrayed spouse) and tell her the truth.

I'm so sorry this happened to you. It's a long road to recovery, but you're going to be okay. Believe it.

I hope you have told the OBS. That’s the first thing you do. The second is to demand she go back to work. The third is see a lawyer/money manager.

By not exposing you are rug sweeping. If you are willing to stay with her due to finances only, your kids will truly be decimated as they will see the dysfunctional marriage you have at the moment. Exposure is a must, small town or not. You my friend sound like you both are rug sweeping. She fucked another man because she was attracted to him and boosted her ego. She chose to break her vows with no remorse and did not give a shit about you or your children. Can you live with knowing that. If so, then you both have some serious issues.

you need to tell the OMW.

until you move request DD5 is put in a different class and

have the soccer club place your DD5 placed on another team.

you also need to tell WW parents.

@inthedark99

Why am I here? Trying to figure out HOW to do some of the things I know I need to do, and to keep learning.

If WW won't willingly go no contact, and I force the issue, there will be consequences - for both of us. Perhaps WW will lawyer up. I don't assume that any of this is entirely in my control - that was the first thing I learned as this unfolded: It turns out that a great many things are not in my control. How do you recommend enforcing NC? Threaten D? Other consequences?

@ChamomileTea

Appreciate your ability to consider both paths forward. I'd like to communicate with the OBS, but attorneys and my IC are consistently against this. I'll continue to study...

@Cooley2here

Demand she go back to work... She has two part time jobs lined up. I am concerned that it's another avoidance tactic. However I don't know how to enforce a demand. I don't want to make excuses for her, however we have been fortunate that she's been able to deal with homeschooling for three kids during the pandemic - which continues. I can't make someone hire her. I could use advice on this one.

@Truthaboveall

Hard truth, living up to your screen name - thanks.

I will tell you what your attorney and IC aren't telling you.

By not telling his wife, you become an accomplice. Their secret keeper. You've become the other man's best friend. Not only does he get to have sex with your wife, in your house, but you will help him hide it.

His wife deserves to know the truth. Just as you do. She needs to know her health has been risked. She needs to be tested for stds. You said supposedly this wasn't his first affair. We have had betrayed wives here who have died,because by the time she found out she had an std, it was too late. We have some here who can no longer have children, because by the time they found out they had an std, it was too late.

If your wife loses her friend, that's part of her consequences for having an affair with a friend's husband.

The other man knows you know. Your wife has already told him.

It sounds like she's had zero consequences. And no remorse. Sometimes consequences bring about remorse.

Look into relocating. Getting away from the Cheater, raising your kids without her, and having a fresh start

The situation you describe is not conducive to healing.

Expose your wife and tell the other betrayed spouse right away. The other BS deserves to know.

You don't want to believe it now but allowing her to keep this secret will destroy any chance of real reconciliation. Losing her social circle is a consequence of her choice to have an affair. If she won't go no contact or tell anyone what's she's done, she is definitely still in the affair. Can you live with a 3rd person in your marriage?

@HellFire

Clear. I infer that attorneys and counselors avoid liability. What (legal) liability will I face, if any? I guess the AP and his W don't have much recourse in this situation, so the main thing would be alienating my WW. Worth noting that the AP does not know I know. WW and he supposedly broke it off without disclosure - according to my WW, he broke it off first, claiming his wife was all over his CC statements and phone activity. Supposedly he got a new phone. WW actually felt rejected by the AP at the time she was supposed to do the dump. I asked to be present, asked to see messages - both didn't happen. Since then I've tracked WW's activity, and while I know they have seen each other at school pickup, there hasn't been other activity or opportunity. We actually saw AP and family at a birthday party and his behavior was surprising - completely avoidant, and they left early. Not the cocky SOB drinking in my kitchen 6 weeks ago. Seems like his wife is doing something. He has no idea he's on video in my house, afaik.

@20yrsagoBS

Yes, I wish I could snap my fingers and make it happen. Something to consider. Hard to unilaterally sell a house, find a new place to live, enroll kids in school, etc. WW is not a willing participant in this sort of plan at this point in time. I love the "whatever it takes" ethos, but I'm fighting some forces outside of my control. DD and exposure did not magically restore control in my relationship...

@clouds777

Has the ring of truth. Thank you.

If this was an escape affair, I am puzzled by WW's apologies and commitment to R. Zero evidence that she is pursuing D.

I'm not actively snooping, but I do have "above average" IT skills and she's left a lot of tracks. Hard to believe she's hiding something I haven't seen.

Like others in similar situations, it's really hard to understand her motivations and inconsistent behaviors...

Points re: rugsweeping very well taken.

Thanks, all.

AboveAverage7913:

You seem to be a very bright person. This sometimes leads to over thinking and analysis.

"Fiddler on the Roof" fan? You are like "Tevye", "on the other hand", "on the other hand."

It will be hard to give you advice as you have already rejected out of hand the things that we believe you need to do to get out of infidelity.

So far, you are leaving her in control. You actually seem to be afraid to act because of money, social issues, and fear of how it will affect your children.

Though you are loath to take action, taking action is the only thing that will actually get you out of infidelity.

You don't even know if the affair has actually ended or if they have just taken it underground. It is possible they are just "cooling it" till things quiet down. Its sounds as if he decides to fire things up again, all he has to do is call.

Mentally, you and your wife seem "above average". Unfortunately, this doesn't have anything to do with intelligence.

We are all basically apes. Biology has guided the actions of animals for hundreds of millions of years; nothing new here.

The "10 Commandments" are about 4000 years old. Hmmm, sounds like they might have had the same kind of stuff going on back then.

You want to think your way out of this. Because you are above average, you believe that your inaction will save you and your family.

You believe that your's is a tough nut to crack. I hate to tell you this, but its not.

You either stay with an UNREMORSEFUL cheater, or you don't. If you chose to stay & set no boundaries, good luck. She will be an unsafe spouse.

If you choose to leave, it will be tough, but at least you will have your dignity.

Right now, she has happy memories of fucking your friend and no negatives at all to deal with. Good luck with that.

Personally, I think your situation calls for a little less rational action and little more APE RAGE!

[This message edited by skerzoid at 2:50 PM, September 14th (Monday)]

I'd like to communicate with the OBS, but attorneys and my IC are consistently against this. I'll continue to study...

Let me preface by saying that I agree with Hellfire. I'm not sure what your attorney's legal concerns are, but let's say he's got his reasons. What I can't agree with is an IC that would recommend that you become complicit in the LIES of your WW and her co-conspirator. I can't see how that benefits your internal processing of the trauma which has been otherwise foisted upon you.

At the very least, please demand the human decency of your WW that she not interact in any further manner with this woman or her family. If she doesn't have the backbone to look that woman in the eye and tell her the TRUTH, what kind of spine does she bring to your recovery efforts? The only hope of recovery for a WS is to adopt HONESTY as their lifelong policy. Otherwise, she has no reason not to lie whenever it suits her purpose.

...according to my WW, he broke it off first, claiming his wife was all over his CC statements and phone activity.

Ugh. That poor woman. She KNOWS something's wrong, same as you did when on a sleepless night you put two and two together. He's gaslighting her, the slippery bastard. I just can't get over how your IC thinks it's okay for your healing for you to be in on this.

...so the main thing would be alienating my WW

Your WW needs a total tear-down of her broken character so she can figure out what she actually believes, what she actually values, and what she needs to build boundaries around. What's her impetus to do that? It's tough, introspective, and humiliatingly humbling work to realize that you're not the person you thought you were, rather, you're pretty much an asshole who USES other people like spackle to fill in the cracks of your own overblown ego. That's rock bottom territory, but it's where REAL CHANGE happens.

I am puzzled by WW's apologies and commitment to R.

Gently my friend because i know how difficult this time is for you. She is not committed to Reconciliation. If she won't go NC, if she is still friends with the toxic person that encouraged her to ruin your family life, if she is still pretending to be a friend to the OBS then she is not committed to Reconciliation. She's not even close.

With all due respect your wife has not faced any consequences for her affair, in fact it seems she is calling the shots with regards as to what is actually happening in your relationship and in your household.

You need to cut ties with this family immediately. Get your daughter in a new school or at least a new class, she is a young child and will make new friends before long. This is nothing but an excuse to stop you taking action, you don't seem to want to upset your WW.

First, sorry you are on the best forum that no one ever wants to join. It sucks learning your spouse is a cheater. Sucks a lot.

I'm 100% with Hellfire.

Dunno why your attorney suggests against it, but I don't see ANY legal ramifications of telling the OBS. If you have the homecam footage, then you have pretty good evidence (better than most of us have).

If the homecam is not rock solid, next step is to go detective. First place to start is her phone and a data recovery program (they are not that expensive, but don't always necessarily retrieve deleted texts - don't bother with the free versions, they really don't do jack). I'd be most interested in FB messenger and any other apps she may use (if it started via a FB group, pretty good bet that's where they chat, but him saying he needed to get a new phone says they may have also been texting). Once FB messages are deleted, I'm pretty sure they can never be recovered... but regular texts often can.

If you have all of her login/password info, great. IF not, then she has a choice: Either she gives you the phone and all passwords so you can run the recovery program or you file for D (and be prepared to FOLLOW THROUGH on that. If you make the threat and aren't ready to file, then she will never take you seriously)

If the IC says to not tell the OBS, then you may want to consider finding a new IC. There are a TON of really crummy IC out there. There are IC that would still tell a WS to keep the secret. That is NOT living authentically for a WS, and it's not living authentically for a BS either. Put yourself in her shoes.... just how would you feel if she was aware of the A with your WW and didn't tell you - kept you in the dark for days/weeks/months/years? It's a really crappy place that your WW has put you in - but now that you know, you do become an accomplice in keeping that OBS in the dark about things that really matter to her life. I made a ton of decisions while my WH was balls deep in his LTA that I would NEVER have chosen had I known about his philandering.

Like mold, lies (& shame) thrive in the dark.... expose them to the sunlight.

ETA: And if telling "alienates" your WW, then your WW is not R material anyhow. The way I look at it, the exposure is NOT the (or even a) problem... the behavior that caused the need to expose is the problem.

Also - there are a couple of books that most folks pretty universally recommend:

1- How to Help Your Spouse Heal After Your Affair by Linda MacDonald (I'm told you can find it free on the web). It's a pretty short (2-3 hour) read.

2 - Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass. It's a bit older, but has a lot of great info on As and recovery.

ChamomileTea has given you some really solid advice

[This message edited by gmc94 at 4:14 PM, September 14th, 2020 (Monday)]

You are basing your assumptions on the word of a woman who has proven she has zero problem lying to you.

Add in the incredible disrespect of bringing him to your home. Not only to have sex, but also to meet you,shake your hand,etc. They basically played a huge joke on you and his wife, while laughing behind your backs.

We have heard of a lot of brazen shit that cheaters will do. And bringing their AP into their home for sex, and arranging a meet up between their spouses, and each other, is not unheard of but far from the norm.

I'd start looking for a burner phone.

What is she doing to become a safe spouse? Saying she's sorry isn't remorse and it shows zero commitment to R.

What she should be doing, at minimum..

Full transparency. You get full access to all accounts, and her phone. All passwords.

Std testing

IC

She drops all friends who knew about the affair.

She answers all of your questions, for as long as you need to ask them.

No anger, or defensiveness.

She goes complete NC with him, and his wife.

She becomes proactive in eliminating triggers.

She figures out why she did this, without blaming you.

And thats just the start.

Do not share this site with her.

@skerzoid

Ape Rage is building, thx.

@ChamomileTea

WW has been open and answered questions - she took me to the site where they parked. She handed over her phone (somewhat reluctantly, but she did it). The total breakdown is long overdue, as she has BPD traits if not actual BPD and I've been dealing with gaslighting, devaluation, and more well prior to the A. I realize that that this is likely to get worse before it gets better, which is why I'm planning, getting the ducks in a line.

@beenthereinco

I hear you, I believe you're 100% correct. She's rugsweeping, at best.

@Carissima

Painfully true, but it's a small town with only one school in pandemic conditions. Cut ties? Working on it - change schools? Not simple.

@gmc94

The homecam shows AP walk in solo. Later, he leaves and gives WW a kiss goodbye that's pretty telling they weren't "just friends"

@HellFire

Thanks for your words. I know that I'm never going to get "No anger, or defensiveness" - she's incapable. As noted above, she BPD-ish. She is capable of expressing emotion, i.e., when confronted after DD she cried - but in almost any stressful situation her go-to move is to fight back, with anger. I've asked myself more than once if I really want to R with this person.

One thing I know about my WW - she wasn't easy before this happened. I'm prepared to play a long game to get it right. Attempting to put her in a corner only gives her time to line up allies.

@skerzoid accurately sees that I'm in analysis mode - I want to get this right. Honestly, I don't think anything good can come from an impulsive attack. The other day I told her that she needs to take 100% ownership of her bad choice before we have any discussion about my 50% contribution to problems in our prior relationship. This escalated to a suicide threat in about 20 seconds. "You're going to hold this over me forever" etc. Doors were slammed, and off she drove (All on the same cam, BTW). Our two oldest kids were horrified.

I know I need to take action. I did catch the Patton quote in another thread here: "A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week." - I'm working toward good, not perfect. There is no perfect in this set of chaotic variables - that much is clear.

Thanks, all.

[This message edited by AboveAverage7913 at 4:28 PM, September 14th (Monday)]