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Asking in such a manner by the BS what the WS thinks is not productive to R- it just is the BS asking for more pain or a lie. Neither of which are any good for anybody.

It really depends why the BS is asking the question, something the WS can't hope to know the answer to. The BS has ever right to ask the question and expect the true answer. If they are trying to figure out what to change about themselves, how to make their spouse happier, what it was about the A that was so alluring, I think it's invaluable to have a spouse that tells them the truth. Otherwise it's just brewing under the surface, waiting for the next blowup. If I asked my W if he was better in bed and she said yes, the next thing I'd ask is "how" or "what did he do" to try to improve myself. I don't ask because it's not worth the breath, she'll lie, so I'll never know. That's SO MUCH more damaging to me, because, of course, I assume the worst.

Always start with the truth. Trying to figure out intent behind the question crazy making. "Was he bigger than me" is a question I'd like answered, I know it will never be, but I'd like to know. I have to let it go though, because my wife will never tell me the truth. It's not pain shopping, it's TRUST, if I trusted her to tell me the truth, I wouldn't even have to ask the question. I was in a funny situation post-A, I knew most of what happened from the OM, so I didn't need my wife to tell me anything. I still went after it, detail after detail, but I wanted her to tell me the TRUTH and come to a place where I could trust her, which could only happen if she was willing to tell me some truly awful truths without embellishment, without a 6 hour lead up, without endless discussions of feelings.. No, I wanted to prove that she had the capacity to be honest. It's perhaps one of the things that set my R back the most, because it took SO long for her to do that, even though she KNEW that I already knew from the OM, she'd still lie to me.

Lies are soul destroying for the BS, or at least this one. If I ask a question, I want a direct answer that I can rely on as the truth. No more, no less.

G&S,

I am missing something, but your first post reads much differently than your last.

GuiltandShame, she wanted to be your sex object. I can't speak for her, but from my perspective finding out that my XWH had gone after young skinny women, I felt like his mom or something. Like he was my teenage son who was out chasing tail and coming home to mommy for the laundry to get done and food in the kitchen. We age and we change, but inside we are still the same woman we were when we were younger and hotter. We want to be seen that way by our husbands even when we don't look that way anymore. We want to feel like we're what turns our husbands on. When there is evidence that we are not what turns our husbands on but we were still used as home-base where we fulfilled other needs for them, we feel like we've been relegated to being their mother. It's a gross feeling.

I'm going to jump on what DevastatedDee just told you.

In my adult life I've been fortunate enough to be considered attractive. Well...after those awkward teen years and I was a late bloomer.

The older I get, the more attention I get. I've been told by many that I exude more confidence with each passing year.

In most of my adult life I've been compared to a Pin Up Girl, modern day Marilyn, various goddesses including Helen of Troy. I'm told I age like fine wine. I've been called, beautiful, an "11", veritable perfection and every mans wet dream. I could go on.

I say that because I want you to know one thing - NONE of that will ever make me not be betrayed. At the end of the day, I will always look in a mirror and think all the above [because damnit it is true] and it will always be punctuated with "but you were still betrayed"

That is a never ending Hell.

Some random thoughts...

...but my cheating choices do not reflect my actual values.

If those were men that you were having on-line affairs with instead of just skinny women, what would it have said about your values? It definitely would have said something. Just so with pursuing skinny women.

How about if your wife had gotten in an accident and was burned over 50% of her body, including her face. What would have been your answer to her question? The two scenarios, yours and this one, are not far off really.

What was the real question behind her question? Did you see it? Did you answer it?

Here's a picture of one of the women you were actually having an affair with, by the way. Actually its not even the right picture, it's just the house that their essence, their spirit, lives in.

If you lined up ten of them, which would be the most attractive?

We are such shallow beings.

Every now and then, when in conversation with someone, it's worth putting your awareness on this fact. Your patterns of neuron firings in your pinkish blob of jelly is interacting with another pinkish blob buried in a facade. Sounds crazy, but true. What you look at when you see your wife isn't HER. It's a facade that she minimally controls, unfortunately, or we'd all be super models of one ilk or another.

Try seeing HER.

My late husband always told me this when I got insecure about my body.

"I did not marry your body. I married all of you. I love you just the way you and and I always will."

Those simple words meant the world to me. Especially with my infidelity related trust issues from my former relationship. He was definitely a keeper!!!

Asking in such a manner by the BS what the WS thinks is not productive to R- it just is the BS asking for more pain or a lie. Neither of which are any good for anybody.

Someone who has never experienced the trauma of relational betrayal dictating to a BS what is or is not "productive" for R is not productive.... or empathetic IMO.

FWIW, NO BS ever "asked" for the pain of being a BS. In fact, by making and keeping our vows, we asked for just the opposite. Once the WS chooses to break those vows, there are all manners of shit to be addressed. All caused by the poor choices made by the WS.

We are never asking for "more pain" or a lie. We are asking that our current pain be seen, and that trust be rebuilt.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 2:46 PM, July 10th, 2020 (Friday)]

Her: The fact that you picked younger skinnier women leaves me feeling very poor about myself. You would never have connected with somebody who looked like I do now.

Me: I certainly do not want to make you feel poor about yourself. I love you just the way you are.

Her: That’s not the point though. You chased people you were sexually attracted to. None of them looked like me. Which by default means you only find younger and skinnier sexually attractive.

Me: Attractiveness has to do with more than just body.

Her: You WANTED skinnier and younger. It obviously mattered. How can you say you find me attractive when you admitted that you wouldn’t have given J (one of my remote emotional affair partners) the time of day if you knew she was overweight?

Me: I do find you very attractive for the combination of your body and your spirit / personality.

Her: That’s not my point. You WANTED younger and skinnier. What do you think that says to me? Admit it, you would have never given somebody who was overweight the time of day.

Me: Attraction-wise, yes I find people who are not overweight to be more attractive than people who are. But that makes no difference with how I feel about you.

At no point did it occur to you to say what you did find physically attractive about her? If you keep repeating over and over again that her looks have nothing to do with your attraction to her, it sounds like you're implying she's ugly but you love her anyways. Every answer you gave missed the point - that your BW needed to be reassured and comforted - and sounded defensive and evasive. That's probably not what you meant but it's definitely how you came off and why she got increasingly more upset with you.

Next time something like this happens and you give a bad answer, you need to immediately stop JADE'ing (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) and show your BW some empathy as you so easily outlined here:

“I know that I have made you feel unappreciated and unsafe and in competition with others, that I shit in our sacred space and betrayed you, and I will always work on never ever doing that again, but in my mind and heart you are not being compared to anyone else, and you are awesome and beautiful just as you are”.

And don't you dare start with:

I’ll never know if that would have changed the course of events.

Of course it would have changed the course of events because the answer above correctly acknowledges her pain that you repeatedly refused to hear!

The second you start to tell yourself that doing the right thing doesn't matter because your BW will be upset anyways is the moment you should kiss your marriage good bye. There are NO excuses for not doing better. There is no good justification for doing the bare minimum because you think doing your best won't matter. The WSes who justified doing the bare minimum because their BS was angry at them are mostly dealing with a D they didn't want right now. If your BW is still upset even after you've done your best to be both honest and empathetic, that is her right but what changes is how you feel about yourself. You can take a little pride in knowing you did your best even if your best wasn't good enough but you will always regret it if you squandered the gift of R because you were too cowardly to give it your best even if it might have not changed the outcome.

My late husband always told me this when I got insecure about my body.

"I did not marry your body. I married all of you. I love you just the way you and and I always will."

Those simple words meant the world to me. Especially with my infidelity related trust issues from my former relationship. He was definitely a keeper!!!

Those are words from a beautiful man. I'm glad you got to experience that kind of love.

Nekonamida,

You should go back and read the original post.

During an argument via messages tonight, triggered by her receiving a Facebook friend suggestion for one of my skinny online affair partners, my wife asked me if I thought that skinny is more attractive than overweight. I answered honestly and quickly “Yes”.

She then said that I must find her less attractive now than when we met (she was quite skinny when we met, and now has a little belly which happens to most women who were pregnant).

I told her that attractiveness involves more than just physical, and that I am much more attracted to her now than ever before.

She said that she was talking about physical attraction, and that by my own admission (that I prefer skinny over overweight), then I MUST find her less attractive physically now.

I told her that her physical attractiveness is only slightly less than before, because she still has that pretty face and smile and great hair and awesome body that moves so well.

Sounds like 2 different conversations....

Some revisionist history is at play here.

My follow-up clarification was not intended to replace my original post, it was not a “revisionist history”, it was a supplement. My original post was written at 1 AM after a huge fight, while I was exhausted and stressed. I had neglected to mention some things about how the argument started, and wanted to shed more light on the entire situation. I did not want my wife to appear to be any sort of “bad guy”.

Why did you cheat on your wife?

This entire conversation is somewhat reductionist in nature. The women you cheated with aren't just "skinny women" and your wife isn't just her weight either. And actual attraction is far more complicated than a picture on your screen - I think, from re-reading your original post, you need to better understand why you so quickly jumped to the "yes" conclusion.

In the end I don't know that there is an answer you could've given your wife that would be the right one. You've so utterly broken the sanctity of marriage that your words are useless and meaningless. The damage is going to take years to heal. Learn to connect with her needs and show her your attraction within the context of what her needs are.

[This message edited by forgettableDad at 6:50 PM, July 10th (Friday)]

This is interesting to me. WH ‘s APs we’re NOT attractive.

I’m overweight, some of his APs were too

Despite being overweight, I get hit on pretty often. I politely decline.

I don’t prefer skinny or overweight. I like a man’s eyes and hands. I prefer honest men who also don’t cheat.

I find good people attractive. If a handsome FIT man cheats, then all of him becomes ugly

When I was cheated on by WH, it was with a 9 years younger single COW with no kids. She was roughly the same size as me, but her boobs were probably a lot perkier because I had breastfed 3 kids and hers were bigger than mine. She was actually probably heavier than me, but there is nothing I could do about youth and lack of kids.

What I could do is starve myself, and that I did. I have daughters so I didn’t let myself get below 112 because in my messed up view of myself 111 would be too skinny - so I got there and stayed there because I would be damned if that COW could ever have that over me. For almost 2 years I competed with that girl in my head - I only call her a girl because of our age and life experience difference.

My WH broke me with his affair. It’s a long story that I don’t believe I’ve ever shared with anyone on SI just how low I got, but it is horrific to me. It took a dr to tell me that I needed to eat for me to slowly begin the healing process.

If you haven’t been there, you can’t understand. Yeah, sure, skinny is more attractive, that’s fine. But she is your wife. You are supposed to love and cherish her above all others - you are supposed to revere her. It sucks to be the wife who finds out it was all a lie and those affairs you had prove that to her. It’s your job to fix that as a WS. It’s taken my WH years to undo the damage. It is possible, but it is not easy. I don’t know if you’ve read How to Help your Spouse Heal from Your Affair, but even if you have, a re-read might help. My WH read it at least 3 times because of issues like these.

Good luck to you and your wife.

The thing is...when you love someone you love all of them. Outer appearances constantly change, whether it be having children that caused our bodies to change, age, or God forbid an accident, etc. If we're lucky enough one day we may get to experience the bliss that is you and the person you pledged to love sitting next to one another old and gray, still in love, still in attraction, realizing you've taken on this crazy life together.

The behaviors you've taken toward your wife that brought you to this forum in the first place are not representative of what loving someone would be. Those behaviors aren't even representative of what loving yourself would be. You view the world from this place inside yourself that hasn't learned to hold compassion. Hasn't learned to love. That's what's allowed you to be capable of betrayal, to be capable nitpicking what's attractive or not in a person you profess to "love".

As a BS I know I foolishly believed my WS loved me the way I loved them...so this kind of stuff is jarring. But so was the capability of betrayal in the first place. I started to see that my WS not only betrayed me, my WS never truly loved me either, she didnt know how...she didnt know how to love herself. Until a wayward goes thru the notions of learning compassion, learning to practice loving behaviors toward themselves, working through the critical messages they may be telling themselves internally, and working on just...overall self-reflection and embracement...then they won't know how to love anyone else.

The focus isn't so much "is skinny more attractive than overweight"...the focus is you. Can you learn to love yourself so that you can learn to love your wife.

I think you were good to be honest. It was already obvious what you found attractive, given your choice in APs. I wouldn’t have believed you had you said otherwise, were I your betrayed spouse. Also — I like that you added all the things you mentioned that were attractive to you about her. That was well done.

On a personal level — I notice weight and muscle tone etc. I notice when my husband is more muscular and I notice when he is less fit. We are human and it is natural selection in play. When he is most “fit” he is more physically attractive to me. That is reality. And I am a betrayed spouse.

MrCleanSlate:

“As HO pointed out you answered the question but missed the point and the empathy.”

What point did I miss? Was I not empathetic when I told her that she was very attractive to me, and that my attraction toward her is based on a whole lot more than just looks?

I have not read past this response by you so please bare with me....

The part I bolded. Your wife is focused on LOOKS be cause I'll bet you didn't go after your AP's for a good sense of humor, amazing personality or how they could change the oil in the car.

You went after them because of HOW THEY LOOKED ie skinny. Of course your wife is going to compare herself to this aspect of your choices during your affairs.

Just keep being honest with her. I personally think sugar coating or trying to soften the blow feels like you’re not being honest. I’m speaking from my own experience. This is painful to your BW, just be honest and try to recognize how that made her feel and address those feelings. It looks like you’re doing that to me.

Buck

Just keep being honest with her.

Indeed. Your job is to stand in the storm you created, confirming every minute of every day that you won’t abandon her again. A life-long project that will never end.

But also make sure you are being honest with yourself. For example, did you have the affairs because you

- Wanted skinny chicks?

- Wanted to be wanted by skinny chicks?

Do you see the difference? It is all the difference in the world.

The first is about looking in the cupboard for something to snack on. You are bored. The second is about feeling power, esteem, self-worth. You are wanted. You need to keep hearing it, because you probably don’t actually believe it yourself.

Sending strength!

There's an idea that two people meet and fall in love. They get married. There is an understanding that the two will age and not be the hottie that they once were. But it's okay, it's safe to age. It's safe to lose your perfect tight skin and perky boobs. It's safe, because you love one another and you will still find one another attractive even when you are both old and gray and saggy and wrinkled. It's safe to have health problems or imperfections. It's okay to need a cane to walk one day. It's safe to have a stomach virus in one another's presence. It's a special bond that allows you not to be competing with other men and women. It's a sacred space. It's a place where you get to be real with another person and fully accepted for your insides and outsides.

For me, this states better than I’ve ever articulated, why the betrayal was so brutal for me. The death of this dream, the expectation of what the person we married will be for us. And if the cheating is occurring while they are also pretending to keep up on their end of this dream.....well, the devastation is so real.

So your wife was devastated in many primal ways by your betrayal. Those wounds go deep, deeper than she may even know. And for many WS empathy, genuine and authentic, I’d NOT a skill they possess. If they did, I don’t think they would be able to become the type of person a cheater becomes. Instead, the mind of a WS focuses on defending their own ego, even when answering questions from the BS.

My H is like this. He can be honest, but can’t always see that that honesty alone is insufficient. It needs to be backed up with much deeper digging and focus on the BS. Being able to go beneath the obvious to see where these wounds reside and what the BS needs to hear in those moments. My H doesn’t truly get it, likely never will. I’ve had to accept that he’s simply untrained in looking at other people with that level of understanding or curiosity. It just doesn’t work that way for him, and that keeps him a bit wayward and unsafe in my mind. But knowing this gives the BS power; power to accept the situation as it actually is.

My question is whether you, G&S, are cable of genuine and authentic empathy? Not a dig or criticism, but an honest question. Not all of us are. But if not, I think we should be willing to acknowledge that, possibly work on those skills the best we can, and share that truth with the BS. Honesty without empathy can be as harmful as outright lying or deception.