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Most important thing for dealing with post D-Day issues and then R and our M was learning how to communicate effectively with each other.

Hi Mr.CS,

Just wondering; did you have professional intervention to get to this point?

Thanks.

[Answered in PM--t/j over. :)]

[This message edited by HardKnocks at 10:55 AM, July 14th (Tuesday)]

I don't know, man, where does it stop, though?

I'm not trying to argue, really, I'm kind of pondering out loud.

If you're attracted to your partner and sexually satisfied, whatever, why be brutally honest about your perfect world preferences that they'll never be able to meet? Why shred them?

Ugh, I don't know, this is complicated. The WS shreds their partner by cheating. In a healthy relationship, you can rest confident in your partner's attraction to you and not feel the need to pluck at these insecurities we all have. But the cheater's actions make that impossible. I guess I just don't see how brutal honesty helps in that case.

I'm talking in circles, I know. I do feel like we need to have a certain hazy suspension of disbelief when it comes to what our partners find ideal . . . we KNOW it ain't exactly us, in a perfect world, but part of love is accepting each other's flaws. Cheating disrupts that suspension of disbelief.

Fuck, I need some advil now.

If you're attracted to your partner and sexually satisfied, whatever, why be brutally honest about your perfect world preferences that they'll never be able to meet? Why shred them?

Because how else can they ever hope to know you? How can it be OK that your "buds" know you've totally got a thing for blondes but your wife doesn't? No, it's not pretty, it's not a "fun" conversation, but it's REAL, and real is always better than just making noise with our vocal cords, IMHO.

And, as I said before, if everyone knows that "lie" is the most likely response, well, they're never going to believe a "less hurtful" answer EVEN IF IT is true. Did my W's AP have a huge penis that brought her pleasure she's never had before? Don't know, NEVER will because she'll never tell me the truth. So, instead, I just worry about it and wonder and that's an incredibly difficult process. Couple that with, if that was the case, and my W had the time of her life, well, maybe we're just not right for one another. Maybe I could meet a girl who's have that transcendent experience with me, who actually likes my body the way my W liked the AP. I've had that choice stolen from me, I can't know the truth, so I just live with the gnawing fear and cannot make a decision because I don't know what I'm working with.

Also, in this particular case, we're not talking penis size, vaginal tightness or age, we're talking about weight, which doesn't really fall into the same category, that can be changed.

Also, in this particular case, we're not talking penis size, vaginal tightness or age, we're talking about weight, which doesn't really fall into the same category, that can be changed.

To a point, sure. I can tell you from personal experience that if you're a woman in your 40s who has had two children, you can get back down to your 20-year-old weight and find that you don't look anything like what you did back in the day. The body ages. Kids often wreck the belly. Skin sags and wrinkles appear. Human beings age. Weight isn't a simple thing. I'm not going to be skinny the same way I used to be skinny. There are imperfections that just were not there before and only surgery can change some of that. It can't erase aging, though. Jana is right, we cannot be the pinnacle of attraction for our partners. We're all just human beings subject to time passing. It never occurred to me that I was the only woman who any man I was with would be attracted to, even in my prime. Somehow that's not a big deal until you find your spouse acting on that attraction. I mean, if a man isn't attracted to women, he isn't going to be attracted to me. Attraction is natural. When you aren't dealing with infidelity, you can feel like the most beautiful woman in your partner's eyes because the assumption is that he isn't only looking for the nicest ass. The assumption is that the whole of you is what he wants and loves. Sounds awfully sweet and cute now to say. Maybe naive, even. I have been with some very attractive men and some much more average men. When I am in love, that man is so much more than any other man that even if I enjoy the looks of another, I would place the man I love so far above them in status that they don't have a chance at me. I guess that's what I personally figured was going on even when we'd be out and about with more beautiful younger women in his eyesight. Infidelity wrecks that illusion. I mean, I have never been with the most attractive man in the world (whomever that is), so there has always been someone hotter than whomever I was with. I would never have pointed out where any man I was with was inferior physically to another. It wouldn't have meant anything. Now, had I gone on a cheating spree like my XWH did, the question would have had more relevance to the man's self-esteem. Without cheating being involved, the man could be physically imperfect and be the pinnacle of what I wanted because of who he is.

Far more beautiful women have been betrayed (Elin, Tiger Woods’ wife etc).

But Tiger had already hit "peak want" with Elin. She married him, as big a show of 'want' as there is. How does he get more 'want'?

If you're not Tiger Woods, if you're not rich, you actually have to find someone to scratch that 'want' itch. They have to lack morals, probably have to have their own 'want' issues. Be a bit scraggly, some measure of normal human defects, living their own life of quiet desperation. So you get that fix. But then you need more.

If you are super rich, you can get a sequence of trophy wives that indicate to your peers your 'wantedness'.

Another way to get the 'want' fix would be to convince the spouse to get plastic surgery. The power to convince another human being to go under the knife and risk their life for beauty? That's some power. Of course, that only lasts for a while too. Then what?

As a BW, I'm speaking for myself only. I would want a response that showed depth of understanding and growth. That would include the truth in full, an apology with empathy, and some change and emotional insight.

Glossing over it with compliments wouldn't do it for me. We're talking about WS that had affairs and pursued others outside their marriage. It's not like they were walking down the street and saw a person and commented, "Wow, He or She is good looking." Then they put it out of their mind, and you just moved on with the day.

The WS put a lot of effort and value on it at the expense of everything else in their life. Why? Also, if the WS can't now see that the sex or attention or whatever was a shallow, superficial, and hollow search for something else, well that speaks volumes too.

If I thought my husband were critiquing my appearance with other women and wanting me to look different everytime he looked at me, I would want to know that. I would also think he's shallow and foolish and would not want to be with him. I know other women are prettier and younger. I don't understand putting a bunch of life energy into even thinking about it.

Rideitout, if your wife sees a man she wishes were taller or thinner or had wavy 80s rock star hair when she looks at you, she's not worth your time. If she's focused on those things, she should examine why they mean so much to her. She should be seeing your qualities with fondness and gratefulness - the way you smile or your sense of humor or your fidelity and grace. She should be seeing a man she wants to grow old with.

I'm all for honesty. My husband is getting haircuts at the fast chain places since the pandemic and usually asks what I think of them. I tell him they're not great, but it's also only hair and I know he feels better with it cut. Honestly, I've never considered his height, but I know he has struggled with his weight since he was a child. I try to be aware of that when we talk about it.

The money/income question bothers me. Is it that you think she wishes you made more money or you wish you made more money? You seem middle/upper middle and comfortable financially. What does the income represent or provide emotionally? I have my own issues around money and came back to SI to try to sort through them with a post, so I'll stop this T/J.

I agree with her that it’s troubling that you haven’t grown a deeper appreciation of her in all ways. Because you have concentrated on finding some. With shallow characteristics to help you feel better about your shallow characteristics. It’s a lack of appreciation for who she is.

I agree with Hiking Out. Reread what you wrote. You listed some shallow things about her. You also listed what you value. Most being what she does for you. No doubt that you value her more right now because you realized like a dog with a bone you are going to lose it. Go beyond value/object love. What do you love about her? That has nothing to do with you and what you get from her or what she does for you? Your wife wants to be more than a value to you.

That you value stuff is a given and really not that important to her if she is anything like my wife. You valued having skinny women find you attractive because you value skinny women being attractive and get a ego boost if they can find the "ugly duckling" attractive. I get that. I did the same. I didn't notice my AP till she lost a lot of weight from working at my store. 5 Months later. I also know that I always found my wife physically attractive and skinny...so what...I had her and because I had already won that...wanted more. Her opinion wasn't enough for me anymore. Because I chose to take her for granted and chose to take advantage of her. Because I was selfish, entitled, and shallow. Till I almost lost it of course. Like a dog with a bone.

I have never thought of myself as shallow, because I also highly value other things besides looks.

really stop and dissect that sentence. IMO value in its entirety to base an opinion is shallow. It is based on selfishness. Can you appreciate without it having value to you? I am sorry, your posts come from a shallow selfish POV. I was the same way for a long time too.

What point did I miss? Was I not empathetic when I told her that she was very attractive to me, and that my attraction toward her is based on a whole lot more than just looks?

Your empathy is coming from your selfish values. Not from true remorse for causing pain regardless of your values. You defended yourself. As opposed to just saying. "I am so sorry. I can see how that must hurt you. I have left you feeling inadequate because of my fucked up values. You shouldn't be questioning if you are good enough. I should be questioning if I am good enough. You should not care about the opinions of a selfish entitled cheating man that places so much about a person on if it is of value to them."

Your wife wants to know if her weight gain impacted your decision to cheat on her. She wants to know if you still value skinny girls opinions more than hers. If your wife has gone through life being confident of herself, you have probably shaken that to the core. She needs to find her place again and gain her self confidence back. Realizing that she shouldn't care what the opinions of man that would choose to cheat values and thinks can help her do that. It is nice to know, so that she can see the perimeters of your value system and weight the safety net...it is just that her self worth shouldn't be based off your opinions and value.

You are defensive because you don't want to be seen as shallow. That your values were wrong. You were wrong. Your values showed in the women you chose to cheat with. Those shallow women were what you valued then. Accept it and be honest to yourself and her about it.

She may never believe it, but my cheating choices do not reflect my actual values.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and take a gander at what I think Zugzwang would say. BULLSHIT. Your cheating choices AT THE TIME absolutely DID reflect your "actual values" AT THAT TIME. To deny that is a complete crock. Your values at the time you were cheating were for shit. On EVERY front, including the "type" of women you pursued, cuz at the time you were cheating, you valued those women (and all aspects of their "type" ), more than you valued your BW or your M.

It's a sacred space. It's a place where you get to be real with another person and fully accepted for your insides and outsides.

You should really take what DD said to heart. Realize the damage you have done.

Yep...on point.

G&S your wife is never going to trust you till you trust yourself enough to be honest with yourself and let her see it. That is being vulnerable. You have to clean out the past. You just can't focus on the now. You have to see who you were and admit to her about that. You focus too much on value because you are selfish and shallow. That is going to take time to change.

You aren't safe for your wife right now. She is trying to win here. She isn't going to be honest with you and tell you she is questioning herself and her attractiveness to you. She wants to see if she is still married to a shallow man that will drop her like a hot potato when the next skinny girl comes along. She probably already had issues with the weight gain and you just proved her right. Get that? She always had a lot more to her than just her build and you still chose to cheat on her. You have to address that. You have to dissect that value love. That you had her and even she wasn't enough. No one would ever be enough because you were trying to fill a hole that only you could fill yet refused to do it.

Zugzwang,

Thank you for coming and joining the discussion. I was hoping you would show up. You have a way of viewing things from a WS perspective and wording them that is often insightful.

Rideitout, if your wife sees a man she wishes were taller or thinner or had wavy 80s rock star hair when she looks at you, she's not worth your time. If she's focused on those things, she should examine why they mean so much to her. She should be seeing your qualities with fondness and gratefulness - the way you smile or your sense of humor or your fidelity and grace. She should be seeing a man she wants to grow old with.

But that is NOT the question that was asked. The question, as I understand it, was a general "Are thin people more attractive to you RIO than overweight people". The answer is yes. There are no qualifications needed, that's the answer to that question, full stop. Now, yes, maybe we can pretty it up and try to get at the REAL question she was asking (which, IMHO, the OP did a decent job of), but the question she asked is very, very easy to answer, yes, in general, they are.

I don't think that those things mean very much to my W. I use it as an example primarily to illustrate the point, not because I think it's important to her. However:

The money/income question bothers me. Is it that you think she wishes you made more money or you wish you made more money? You seem middle/upper middle and comfortable financially. What does the income represent or provide emotionally? I have my own issues around money and came back to SI to try to sort through them with a post, so I'll stop this T/J.

This is a great one to draw the analogy. Are "richer" men more attractive? Yes, of course they are, you take two similar men, one rich, one poor, and you put them next to one another and ask women which they'd prefer. I'm sure the answer will shock nobody. And that's kind of like "thin"; it's not intrinsically "right" that thin is more attractive, anymore than it's right that 6'5" is more attractive or anything else. But it is.

But I think that income is probably the best parallel to draw here, it's under my control (I could make more if I worked harder), I know my wife finds it attractive (as do many), and, if I asked her (assuming her AP had more money than me) if that was "attractive" to her, of course I'd expect she'd say yes. What does it represent? Well, whatever you want it to; it's completely fungible. A garage full of cars and motorcycles or a closet full of designer clothes. A lifetime of travel and excitement or a lifetime spent pursing solo hobbies. It's basically any material dream you have, wrapped up in a number of 0's behind your net worth. Now, that said, it's not in anyway a necessity to happiness, and, honestly, a lot of people chase it forever and can't seem to find any happiness from achieving wealth (just like guys might spend a lifetime chasing thin girls and never find someone to marry). But it's pretty darn obvious that "richer is better" in most ways; I mean, come on, it's not like I'm the only one to notice this, a comedic foil for, well, as long as I've been alive is "But he's rich" (to convince a woman to date a guy she's not interested in).

Anyway, sorry for the TJ, but I do think that's somewhat in the line of what the OP was asking about. If I asked my wife this question though, I'd expect her to be honest about my balding crown, my moderate income, my average sized penis, or any of the other things I asked her. Honestly, the more emotionally charged the question for me (penis size, for example) the more critical honesty becomes.

As I've said before, to the OP, I'm expressing my viewpoint here. You've gotten a lot of people explaining to you how what you did was wrong and how to make it better in the future by changing the answer. Listen to them, not me. It appears that type of answer would be much better received by most than it would be by me personally.

Realizing that she shouldn't care what the opinions of man that would choose to cheat values and thinks can help her do that. It is nice to know, so that she can see the perimeters of your value system and weight the safety net...it is just that her self worth shouldn't be based off your opinions and value.

your wife is never going to trust you till you trust yourself enough to be honest with yourself and let her see it. That is being vulnerable. You have to clean out the past. You just can't focus on the now. You have to see who you were and admit to her about that. You focus too much on value because you are selfish and shallow. That is going to take time to change.

She isn't going to be honest with you and tell you she is questioning herself and her attractiveness to you. She wants to see if she is still married to a shallow man that will drop her like a hot potato when the next skinny girl comes along.

Thanks Zug.... I've missed you!

Rideitout,

Thanks for replying.

I agree the truth is important, and he spoke his truth if that was in fact the question. There's some discussion that the conversation didn't actually go that way.

The problem for me would be the lack of any insight or growth or depth of thought behind the answer in the context of OP being a WS. I almost hate to put that here, because I don't want to give him a script to reply to his BW. If that is how he sees his things, I think he should say so.

With the income situation, I appreciate your point of view. I do have a different opinion. I'll put a post in general later. I'm in a streaming tech conference on PDT.

The problem for me would be the lack of any insight or growth or depth of thought behind the answer in the context of OP being a WS.

Me too.

I have no problem with the truth. The OP did try to tell his wife that there is more to why he VALUES her than just if she is skinny. What else is important. He could have worded it better, though with his current mindset THE VALUE MINDSET and the extent of where he is in his journey he really wasn't going to. Shoulda Coulda Woulda...it really wasn't going to happen though. It isn't right like I always say, it is the reality though. She is feeling him out and she knows where he is in his journey and she can assess the progress. No offense OP...IMO you are still new and still in a selfish shallow mode...so yes...to answer you OP you are still that broken.

Don't stop there with that answer and discussion guys. Dissect what you said to her. Dissect the truth with her. You did value these women above her and it was because they were skinny. It was also more than that. Answer these questions with her. Was it because they were skinny and she was not? I highly doubt that. Was it because you valued the opinion of skinny women because the truth is you are attracted to that body type? The affairs are shallow. At least for cake eaters and many others. I am still tying to figure out the exs. That seems a whole other monster. There are many areas where you were attracted to these women too. They were broken too. Like to like. Needy. Easy. They certainly were not better than your wife. They couldn't hold a candle to your wife. She has a character and soul much more attractive. You just chose to take that for granted and then to take advantage of it. You took your fine dining surf and turf and decided you also wanted to stop at some cheap fast food restaurant for a greasy unhealthy burger. Because only fast food would have been open to someone like you were at the time. You need to address why you cared about the opinion of a skinny broken thing. Why did you choose to no longer just be happy with your wife's opinion? Did she stop feeding you? Why do you "value love"?

GuiltandShame, I didn't read the thread so sorry if this is redundant.

I don’t know what to do. I understand what she is saying, and I understand why she feels hurt, but I don’t know how to help. I feel stuck and stupid. I feel so upset and sad that I have hurt her and made her upset again.

I completely understand the difficult with wanting to be honest and truthful when you are both working on honesty earnestly (probably for the first time) while at the same time trying to come to a better understanding of reality, how you mis-perceive reality, and where that came from. It does indeed leave one feeling stupid and stuck, especially when you have your BS bombarding you with questions of existential importance to her.

My husband was deeply troubled because he is better than the Ap in every conceivable way (forgive a momentary show-off of him: he is wealthier by far, smarter by far, record holding athlete, attentive father plus a non-adulterer!). So he was left wondering - what is it about the AP that I found attractive? Was it his bombastic and self-congratulatory personality. Did my BH have to become like that to win me back? It was truly mind spinning for him.

(When we came to the end of the unraveling, it was clear that I ALWAYS wanted my husband. I didn't think I deserved or could every really have his love and good opinion. By the time the AP came along I had felt alone and lonely for many years, completely unbeknownst to my husband. What the AP had was a few practiced throwaway lines and some spare time).

While I was learning where my vulnerability to the Ap came from, how to heal that, coming to believe my husband really did see who I was and love me - and that all took a really long time - I would say something like this which was both honest and truthful: "There is a part of me which is drawn to behavior like the APs because it gives me a false sense of being needed and wanted based on the specific injuries I came into the marriage with. I want to heal those so I'm not vulnerable. YOU are the man that both my health and hurt sides wants, if you will have me."

For you that probably has something to do with body image - you came into the marriage with deep difficulties about your body image which are still coming to play in a few ways. The healthy side of you wants your wife and you want her help, if she is willing, to heal the hurt parts too.

And be sure to tell her frequently and specifically exactly what you love about her and her body, and make sure it is comprehensive. She needs to know that she meets ALL of your needs.

[This message edited by Pippin at 8:18 AM, July 20th (Monday)]

A big THANK YOU to everyone who posted and provided advice and insights and guidance and examples. I appreciate all of your words.

I am in the process of organizing and condensing the posts, to form some highlights that I will post here for confirmation.

This is the first of several “summary posts” that I developed based on all of the posts. By posting these “summary posts”, I hope to show that I listened to you, heard your advice, and learned from you. In some cases I pulled quotes from your posts, and I apologize if I did not name you as the source.

Marriage should be a sacred space where we feel safe to be “real”, where we are accepted and loved just as we are. It should be a place where it feels “safe to age”, where physical changes are expected and accepted because we love the spirit inside that body. It should be a place of mutual respect and admiration and caring, forsaking all others to love and cherish your partner above all others. Cheating and affairs wreck that sacred space:

- “Death of a dream”

- “The feeling of safely growing old with someone is gone”

- “You took a shit on that sacred space. You kicked her out of it.”

- “You've so utterly broken the sanctity of marriage that your words are useless and meaningless.”

As a WS, it’s important for me to show that I recognize and mourn the death I caused (a murderer of sorts), acknowledging how what I have done makes my BW feel, expressing true empathy and compassion for my BW.

“Summary post” #2

Cheating and affairs are completely un-loving (hateful) to the BS, even when they are still secret, unknown to the BS. The WS cannot truly love their BS while making these terrible choices. The WS may SAY they love their BS at the time, and the WS may even BELIEVE they love their BS at the time, but part of their focus and energy and heart is not given to the BS, so true love is lacking. The WS is distracted and wandering, lost in a world of ego strokes and excitement. Lack of full effort toward the marriage and lack of full attention toward the BS leads to a lack of appreciation for them in their entirety, beyond their physical aspect. And, once the BS becomes aware of the cheating and affairs, the pain and hurt and doubts and betrayal naturally lead the BS to doubt that ANY love exists or existed. BS feels like they were not valued, useless and worthless, that the AP’s were valued more than the marriage.

Cheaters are ugly spirits, regardless of how attractive their bodies may be.

G&S, more importantly than making these summary posts, share your sentiments with your BW and do better next time she triggers. WE are not the people you need to impress and prove your learning to. SHE is. She needs to see this from you more than we do and most importantly, she needs to see your actions follow through and reflect what you have learned.

Thank you, nekonamida!

I agree with you. Actions speak louder than words, and I must demonstrate what you all have taught me.

My BW often reads my posts here, and I told her that I was going to post about what I learned from this big discussion.....