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There is no such thing as the "kind of person" who engages in broader types of sexual activity. Only people who do. They are all kinds of people. And it says absolutely nothing about ethics or morals or values.

Would you say the same about affairs? There is no "kind of person" who engages in an affair and it says nothing about their ethics, morals or values? I know I wouldn't. And I feel the same way about someone who had 1/2 the football team in one night. You can disagree, and you can tell me that's not at all a reflection on their character, but you can also make exactly the same argument about an affair. It's in the past, I did it, it was some sort of sexual deviancy and now I'm not doing it. It doesn't matter, right? Well, not for me, wrong; in fact, dead wrong.

I think a lot of people have very dissatisfying sex lives

I would say, nearly every married man I know is in some way and measure dissatisfied with their sex life. Some desperately so. Some just a little bit (if she was only up for this one thing). I know I was before the A, putting myself into the "moderately dissatisfied" category. And I don't mean to imply "only men", I just never speak to women about this IRL at all. However, from this board, is seems there are some who'd fall into that camp too.

I went out with ONE time, no sex, slut shamed me for having a dinner date with someone else.

Ugh? This is "slut shaming" now? I kind of just thought this was standard fare jealousy. Man, I look back on my life and in horror with how many "new rules" I've broken/bent. Of course, those rules didn't exist then, and it was just fine to get upset when someone you were dating was also dating/sleeping with someone else even if you weren't exclusive.

Grow up guys. You like sex and I do too, so knock it off, it’s 2019.

Speaking for myself only, if I were dating again, I'm sure I'd be that same asshat you dropped. Why? Because while I'd LOVE to call you up and say "lets just skip dinner and have each other for dessert", for the vast majority of my dating life, I'll tell you, that works like S**T! There's a dance, I act interested, you act demure, and round and round we go until the clothes come off. Now, if you just want to F, and you make that clear, yeah, no problem at all, I'll drop the game (and my pants) and we can get to it. But that was like the 1-100 situation for me. What you described above, guys acting upset about you dating others, I'd do exactly that, not because I was actually upset (if we were just FWB or open dating), but because it's part of the dance. Yes, it's a very stupid dance, and frankly, what I'd rather say is something along the lines of "I'll bet I can do better", but.. That just works like crap in the majority of cases.

Do you ever think that maybe having such rigid standards about sex makes people more likely to cheat?

Certainly describes my wife well.

You can make the same excuse for basically ANYTHING.

Exactly. I could come on here and complain that women won't date me because I told them about my drinking problem years ago. And people might say that was stupid of her, but, statistics don't lie in this case, if you had a drinking problem once, your dramatically more likely to have one again. And, right or wrong, I would be judged for that and should expect to be judged, my past behavior showed poor decision making (at least in the eyes of society).

A woman banging the football team after practice is showing the same kind of poor decision making. Now, we can argue all day that she should be free to do that, and yes, she IS free to do that. Just like I'm free to judge her for that behavior while quaffing my 37th beer of the day. She can judge me for my out of control use of booze, just like I can judge her for her "out of control" sexuality.

And why men don't get judged the same way, it's been said a few times, but it's an accomplishment for men. It's REAL hard to bang 1/2 the cheerleading team in a day for a man. In fact, you'd have to be so high value as a man to be near approaching rock star status. Literally any woman who's even moderately attractive can bang the starting lineup of any college football team if they make it easy enough. There's not status conveyed because we all recognize it as "easy". Same reason why I'd get "status" from men for banging 5 cheerleaders in a day but lose "status" for mastrubating 5 times in a day. It's easy to sit at home and watch porn, a whole lot harder to talk a group of college girls into a 5 way. It has to do primarily with difficulty and skill required, we admire men who can do it because of it and disparage women for the same reason.

I'm a big believer in differences making people incompatible without any labeling of right or wrong, but I think that in this case, there is most definitely a wrong.

So it's wrong for me to want to be with someone that places the same values on sex that I do?

If he asked her prior to marriage “hey honey have you ever participated in an orgy?” and she said no, then the lying is a problem.

BUT if she answered yes and he decided not to marry her? Then it’s slut shaming. Her sexual past doesn’t make her a bad person, or less worthy of love. That’s what rejecting someone based on their sexual past is saying isn’t it? “Sorry, you’re too much of a slut to be worthy of me.” Slut shaming.

Sexual history is not a measure of a person’s value.

You don’t have to marry someone who has participated in sex acts that you don’t agree with. That’s your choice. Just don’t pretend that you’re not slut shaming.

I can’t get behind the idea being tossed around here that somebody who had fun sexually while single and with other single adults is somehow thrown in the same lot as a cheater. You can judge me all you want for what I did while single. That’s your right and I don’t really care. Bottom line is my less experienced partner is the one who cheated, and cheating has never been an option for me. So this idea that well it’s an indication of your future behavior and you have lesser morals and values and you’re less likely to form a lasting bond is honestly a bunch of bs.

RIO- honestly, I think you'd do so much better if you tried to deprogram some of those beliefs you have about dating, sex, and men and women in general.

I suspect if you have issues dating in the future, if that is a thing you choose, it will be because of those beliefs, not because of any other factors you may blame it on.

[This message edited by PSTI at 3:34 PM, November 28th (Thursday)]

I would certainly want to know if my partner had abused illicit drugs.

Did I say anything about abusing anything? No, I did not. Before you come back with, it's a highly addictive drug, so is alcohol (maybe the most addictive substance that we know of). Not everyone who enjoys consuming alcohol abuses it. Don't make assumptions or judgments about that which you don't know.

A prospective partner has the right to ask. S/he does not have the right to know.

You don’t have to marry someone who has participated in sex acts that you don’t agree with. That’s your choice. Just don’t pretend that you’re not slut shaming.

^^^^^^^^^^

Bottom line is my less experienced partner is the one who cheated, and cheating has never been an option for me.

Boom! I have never cheated on anyone. I probably had at least twice as many sexual partners as my fch.

I used to think slut shaming was horrible. Now you guys are convincing me that not all of it is.

If I learn that a girl i'm dating had a fivesome and that's not ok with me and I s decide not to date her anymore bc of that, apparently, that's slut shaming. And I'm ok with that.

PM for you Maudlin

And why men don't get judged the same way, it's been said a few times, but it's an accomplishment for men. It's REAL hard to bang 1/2 the cheerleading team in a day for a man. In fact, you'd have to be so high value as a man to be near approaching rock star status. Literally any woman who's even moderately attractive can bang the starting lineup of any college football team if they make it easy enough. There's not status conveyed because we all recognize it as "easy"

I keep seeing stuff like this from you and other men on this site and quite frankly it's garbage. Oh I've no doubt you firmly believe it but its very telling about your general attitude towards women, dating and sex in general.

[This message edited by Carissima at 4:32 PM, November 28th (Thursday)]

BUT if she answered yes and he decided not to marry her? Then it’s slut shaming. Her sexual past doesn’t make her a bad person, or less worthy of love. That’s what rejecting someone based on their sexual past is saying isn’t it? “Sorry, you’re too much of a slut to be worthy of me.” Slut shaming.

That's "slut shaming"? If so, am I allowed to have any preferences on sex, or is it all "slut shaming" or "basically rape" (if I want something not on the menu)? I'm really not sure how to win at this anymore, and, when I read things like this, it makes me think that my preferences/desires/beliefs are basically not just wrong, but overtly offensive.

Let me ask a different question. Would you marry a man who was previously gay? And, while gay, participated in all manners of sexual exploration? And if the answer is no, is that "gay shaming"? Or is it just a realistic assessment of the risk and/or the distaste in that person's sexual past/exploits?

And, frankly, it really doesn't matter that much, we can call it "slut shaming" all day long, it's not going to adjust the behavior, because, believe it or not, that behavior is a result of biology, not society. A woman who's promiscuous is dangerous for a LTR because of the risk of raising another man's children. That's biology at work, and, like it or not, it makes sense to be concerned. The ease of sexual access for most women, coupled with a history of exploiting that access to bed many men, yes, that's a risk factor.

Now, I'm going to give the counterpoint (or one) myself, I slept with more women than my wife slept with men before we married and she cheated. So, of course, it's not always a direct line. But statistics are rather clear here, there's a direct relationship between number of partners and likelyhood of divorce. We can dislike that, we can call it nasty names like "slut shaming" but I'm not sure that changes the situation in any meaningful way.

I suspect if you have issues dating in the future, if that is a thing you choose, it will be because of those beliefs, not because of any other factors you may blame it on.

Perhaps, I can't say one way or another.

I keep seeing stuff like this from you and other men on this site and quite frankly it's garbage. Oh I've no doubt you firmly believe it but its very telling about your general attitude towards women, dating and sex in general.

My general attitude towards woman is somehow reflected in my belief that sex is much easier for women to get than men? I'm not sure I see the link there, but, if you care to elaborate on what part of that is "garbage" or untrue, I'd love to hear it. I'm not, BTW, saying this SHOULD be true, that's a completely different discussion and, in case you wondered, no, I don't at all think it SHOULD be or is right that it is that way. What I am saying, that's the way it is. And, I'll just say, it sucks for me personally too that it's that way, I spent a lot of time overcoming the "but people will think I'm a slut" objection from girls I was dating or slept with. Life would have been much easier for me sans slut shaming. However, since that came up, my experience with "slut shaming" has come almost entirely from women. In college and after, it wasn't the men doing the "shaming", shoot, we loved the girls who would spread it around, they were the "girls to call" for us. It was their friends, I heard plenty of "did anyone (my friends) see us go upstairs"; the real risk wasn't another guy seeing, most girls didn't care about that. But their friends, they were deeply concerned, and often we'd have to do a few "laps" to show we weren't having sex if one of their friends say us go to a bedroom.

If I learn that a girl i'm dating had a fivesome and that's not ok with me and I s decide not to date her anymore bc of that, apparently, that's slut shaming. And I'm ok with that.

Same here. But apparently, with the new culture, it's not OK anymore. I never considered it "slut shaming" to not want to marry a woman who'd slept with 5 guys at one time, I called that a personal preference. I never considered it "fat shaming" to not date overweight women, I also considered that a preference. I'm not trying to "shame" anyone, I'm trying to live my life, and make decisions that I feel will lead to the best outcomes for that life. I'm not even sure I'm allowed to do that anymore though. Don't like watching gay porn? Well, that's obviously "gay shaming", right? Or is it just that I find it distasteful and don't enjoy it? I guess I need to get over it though to make sure I'm "hip" enough. Wish me luck. ;)

[This message edited by Rideitout at 5:28 PM, November 28th (Thursday)]

RIO, if you read your post, you'll see that you don't even treat the women in your comments like human beings. That's pretty garbage.

And as to your point- yup, if a man was "previously gay" (bizarre way to put it since generally it's not a back and forth) but decided he was straight then yeah, it would absolutely be judgmental to choose not to have him as a partner. Assuming no STI issues. Past behaviour is past. Not to mention, I previously mentioned how I think that the bi stigma is pretty horrific as well- and that doesn't even have to be past. The person just has to identify as mono but some people still won't date a bi person because they figure they will cheat

Do we open this up to trans people? I'm rather afraid of how many people here would say that they think it's just fine not to date a postop trans person.

[This message edited by PSTI at 5:34 PM, November 28th (Thursday)]

PSTI, you are a walking contradiction. I don't think anyone on SI outside of the wayward forum uses the term judgemental more than you. Unsurprisingly, you do it in the most judgemental way possible, by judging others for holding different beliefs other than your own. I haven't seen one person come on this thread and say you or anyone else aren't allowed to fulfill any of your sexual desires. That is pretty fucking accepting if you ask me. Why isn't that enough for you? But if I decide to opt out of a sexual relationship with someone, because of my values, I'm considered judgemental and intolerant? Give me a break.

Look, good for you, you are happy in your swinger lifestyle. I hope all works for you, truly. Having a different view of marriage is my right, accept that. Quit judging those who believe in monogamy and value sex differently than you. Or at least, practice what you preach.

Coco, I'm going all the way back to page 2 here...no what I said isn't irrelevant. What is irrelevant in your need to crowbar slut shaming into this man's situation. You and others have made a conclusion or judgment if your PSTI that this man has slut shamed his wife. But as I brought up on page one, we know very little about this man's story. Including the example you provided in your reply to me with regards to asking for these details pre marriage. But as usual, you'd rather check off your narratives talking points than look at the situation objectively.

loukas, I don't consider myself a swinger, but close enough I am sure.

There is nothing wrong with monogamy. But what is being judged here is people's behaviour when they were single! We're not talking about cheaters. We're talking about consensual sex before you met someone.

That's the part that is judgmental. You're literally talking about blacklisting people because you disapprove of specific sexual acts they have done in the past. We're not talking about alcoholism or addiction or theft or anything like that- just a different kind of sex.

Think about that for a moment before having a knee jerk reaction. You are literally making a character judgment about someone because they tried (maybe not even liked!) a sexual act when they were single and engaging with other consenting adults.

[This message edited by PSTI at 5:44 PM, November 28th (Thursday)]

If so, am I allowed to have any preferences on sex, or is it all "slut shaming" or "basically rape" (if I want something not on the menu)?

You're allowed to have preferences. You're allowed to voice those preferences to your partner. Your partner is allowed to say no. If you force your partner to do a sex act that she said no to, then yes, that's either rape or basically rape. You can't force someone to do a sex act.

You can exit your relationship and find a partner who enjoys that act.

Good rule, never force or coerce someone into a sex act.

Let me ask a different question. Would you marry a man who was previously gay? And, while gay, participated in all manners of sexual exploration? And if the answer is no, is that "gay shaming"? Or is it just a realistic assessment of the risk and/or the distaste in that person's sexual past/exploits?

You understand that nobody is "previously gay" right? You can't ungay someone. A person can be bisexual, which is entirely different. If you're dating someone and they confess to previously being in a same-sex relationship and you react with disgust, then yes, that's shaming them. Since you quoted me, I would date someone who is bisexual (and I have). It didn't progress to marriage for other reasons so I'm honestly not sure.

A woman who's promiscuous is dangerous for a LTR because of the risk of raising another man's children. That's biology at work, and, like it or not, it makes sense to be concerned. The ease of sexual access for most women, coupled with a history of exploiting that access to bed many men, yes, that's a risk factor.

Not at all. Number of sexual partners has nothing to do with someone's propensity to cheat in a long term relationship. She's not dangerous because she had a lot of sex while she was single. It's her behaviour when she's in a relationship that matters. Two completely different things.

RIO, one of my best friends shares your views and honestly I feel sad for him. He's so dissatisfied in life. He wants a confident, successful, beautiful woman as a partner (he's a high earner so considers himself to be a high value male). He never gets past the first date. The type of women he wants to attract are offended by opinions like the ones you've shared here. Maybe you'll have better luck.

I'm rather afraid of how many people here would say that they think it's just fine not to date a postop trans person.

Well, not surprisingly, I'll say, yes, I think it's 100% fine to say "I don't date post-op trans people" and not shame anyone at all. I'm not saying I think they are bad people, or that they shouldn't have the option to do whatever they want to their bodies. I think the right to do those things is incredibly important and would defend them to the end. I would also tell guys to "knock it off" if they were making fun of a trans person or threatening them, up to the point of getting in a fight myself if a group of guys were ganging up on a trans individual and hurting them. That's got nothing to do with them being trans, just with basic human decency. But date them? Absolutely not. Not because I don't respect them, their choices or feel they are "bad", I just don't want to date someone who was once a man. That's my personal preference, and again, it feels like I'm going to be told that's wrong. Wrong or not, it's the truth. But trans people are on a long list of "will not date" for me, along with redheads, women who have "high power" jobs, women who are seriously overweight, women who aren't well read/intelligent and yes, to the OT, women who pulled a train with the college football team. My preferences, my choices and a reflection of the things that I enjoy in a partner. I guess I can, perhaps should apologize for them, but, they are what they are.

if a man was "previously gay" (bizarre way to put it since generally it's not a back and forth) but decided he was straight then yeah, it would absolutely be judgmental to choose not to have him as a partner.

Judgmental? Or a personal preference. And no, for men, it's typically not back and forth, but it does occur. For women, it's very often back and forth, gay/bi/straight; it's very common for all those "phases" to occur in a woman. And, of course, the reason I constructed that with a gay man is because, as you point out, it's typically NOT back and forth. A guy telling you "I was gay, but now like women" has some not insignificant chance of lying to you (or himself). But it's a past behavior, right? It doesn't matter? Except that it does, and a whole lot of men who are gay are gay, and while they might date/marry women many live "in the closet" their entire lives. If it were my daughter, I'd tell her to think long and hard about it before marrying someone with this history. And my son, marrying the girl who enjoyed the football team after practice? I'd tell him the same thing. Past behavior is indicative of future behavior. If it wasn't, nobody would ask for your resume, or what your GPA in college was, or if you've been arrested before. But we ask those question in an employment application because statistics tell us that succeeding in another job is a great indicator of future success, doing well in college is a good indicator, and being arrested once makes it much more likely you'll be arrested again. History and past matters, it just does, especially when it comes to unverifiable facts; "Are you going to steal from me", "Are you going to be faithful in this relationship", etc. Everyone will give the "right answer" to those questions, to the answer itself holds no value, what matters is the years you spent handling money and not stealing, the marriage you had where you never cheated and a sexual past that doesn't include Eiffel Towers and gangbangs with strangers.

Not at all. Number of sexual partners has nothing to do with someone's propensity to cheat in a long term relationship.

You need to look up the statistics on this. They do not agree with what you're saying. Perhaps there are other stats out there that show something different, but, from everything I've seen, yes, number of sexual partners and risk of divorce (no, not cheating, but since cheating often proceeds D, I'd say it's a reasonable leap) is correlated.

She's not dangerous because she had a lot of sex while she was single. It's her behaviour when she's in a relationship that matters. Two completely different things.

That's true, and, to your point, a much bigger "red flag" to me would be "I cheated on my H and he D'ed me" vs "Eiffel tower". I would never date a woman who'd cheat on her husband (which is probably also wrong, but, hey, let's just keep the theme going), ever, for any reason other than as a FWB/ONS.

The type of women he wants to attract are offended by opinions like the ones you've shared here.

Well, the stuff we're discussing here is absolutely NOT first date material. Rather than change his viewpoint, I suggest your friend change his talk track for his dates! If you're talking about Eiffel Towers and the statistical likelyhood of cheating on a first date, you've gone deep off the end of the diving board.

You're allowed to have preferences.

Great. Then I think we can basically wrap up this thread, or this part of the thread. My preference is to not date (actually, that's not true, not marry or get into a LTR) women who've engaged in gangbangs. Sounds like I'm A-OK now, but I'm not sure how that's suddenly "OK" when a moment ago it was "slut shaming" (or fat shaming because I don't want to date overweight women, or trans shaming because I don't want to date someone who's in the transition).

[This message edited by Rideitout at 6:00 PM, November 28th (Thursday)]

You're allowed to have preferences.

Great. Then I think we can basically wrap up this thread, or this part of the thread. My preference is to not date (actually, that's not true, not marry or get into a LTR) women who've engaged in gangbangs. Sounds like I'm A-OK now, but I'm not sure how that's suddenly "OK" when a moment ago it was "slut shaming" (or fat shaming because I don't want to date overweight women, or trans shaming because I don't want to date someone who's in the transition)

Well you took that completely out of context. If you're quoting me, I meant that you're allowed to prefer specific sex acts.

Also, you're totally allowed to think gay sex is distasteful and women who participate in group sex are not worth marrying. Just recognize that you are shaming people. I don't understand why you're offended? Slut shame and "gay shame" all you want. Just expect that people will point it out.

And my friend doesn't exactly start going off on Red-Pill diatribes on the first date. These kinds of opinions and attitudes have a way of showing themselves. He has lots and lots of luck with women who he feels are beneath him (not as attractive, lower earners, overweight), but attractive and successful women who know their worth? Nope. Not a chance. He's one lonely guy.

Deleted because I was angry and my comment was unehelpfuk.

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:57 PM, November 28th (Thursday)]

prospective partner has the right to ask. S/he does not have the right to know.

Yep. I think I said this. Oh you don’t wanna tell me? Have a good life.