SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Way too much to catch up on with everyone - but glad we all survived the first holiday. Now just two more to go until holiday season is done!

Yeah, and I am a grinchy bitch so not decorating at all. Bah farking humbug.

HHADL - Does your daughter know about your story?? If not, maybe now is the time to enlighten her. If she does know, I would think you could use yours as a cautionary tale. Cus I'm with Chaos - she needs to get away from this jackass immediamente before she winds up pregnant and stuck with him.

gmc - no worries. Maybe next time eh? But Ellie's fatass does not go near skiing. I am the unicorn native Coloradan that doesn't ski. I am clumsy enough on my own two feet, I don't dare tempt fate

And...I have one for the Womenz. I'm not going to make a General post as of now [although I should -but with the timing it may make me identifiable if others should find themselves here]. I feel more safe with this in the Womenz thread for now [I touched on it in Questions for WS]. But I'd love your thoughts...

So I outed a cheater

And [VENT] if one more person tells me how I ruined all those lives – I’m going to scream.

Chaos - what were the circumstances exactly? BS a good friend?

Ellie - BS is a friend. I won't say close or good, but a friend. We socialize on a semi regular basis. WS is a good friend of WH.

If roles were reversed - and I knew she knew and did nothing - I'd feel betrayed by her too.

I slept on it a few days before exposing. I am a prayer and I prayed hard. "Do the right thing" is the answer I kept getting loud and clear.

You did the right thing, period. I WISH someone in our friend group had told me that my XWH tried to hook up with a friend's young adult daughter. I WISH. But three of them who knew didn't because "I seemed so happy" and they didn't want to "ruin it".

You aren't going to get gratitude like you deserve for this extremely good deed, but I am proud of you for doing the hard thing.

Chaos, I feel you. After living through this, I really don't think I could ever not expose if I knew for sure. Hell, even if I just had suspicions, I think I would share those too. Especially if the BS was a friend - I wouldn't ever want someone being blindsided like I was.

That being said, it sounds like BS was doing a bit of ostriching at her situation and is PO'd that exposure happened and made her actually face reality. *shrug* Eventually, BS will know you did the right thing.

As far as anyone saying something about you ruining lives - I would tell them that "cheaters ruin lives. Ask me how I know that." Or say nothing at all - you don't owe them diddly shit by way of explanation.

But we all know that people who haven't lived through this really don't have the first fucking clue what they are talking about with it.

DevastatedDee - thank you

Ellie - my standard response has been along the lines of "This isn't about me telling, it is about the WH cheating" and "The best way to keep someone from finding out and exposing is NOT to do it to begin with"

When told it wasn't my business - it is funny to watch people's faces when I say "if it were your spouse, wouldn't you want to know" and "if it were your spouse how would you feel towards those who knew and did nothing"

I was prepared for a lot of fallout. Not the sheer and utter hatred.

[This message edited by Chaos at 11:54 AM, December 3rd (Tuesday)]

One of my favorite sayings and one I try to live by:

Principles only mean something when they are inconvenient.

I have definitely found out that a lot of people would rather live a beautiful lie than deal with an ugly truth. So yeah, the ones that are hating on you are intimidated by the fact that not only are you principled, but you put your money where your fucking mouth is and that is incredibly rare. Shallow shitty humans don't know how to deal with truth that shiny.

You keep your BASGU head up high my dear!

Chaos, you totally did the right thing! I know one of his BF's spent the weekend with them. WTF??? And you tihnk you're MY friend now? Never

Chaos, you did the right thing. I'm sorry people are attacking you for it. That's there fear showing. None of that is on you. If cheaters didn't cheat, none of this would happen.

HHADL, thanks. I'll keep the list as is for now. It's obvious all of that falls under CoD, but my fch needs specifics. He has a really hard time seeing the big picture or extrapolating. It's like when you tell a kid to not jump ok n the furniture so they bounce instead. It's not about that particular fucking soc on the floor! It's about the fact that you don't put your dirty clothes in the basket! (That's a silly example. My fch does actually put his clothes I'll n the hamper.)

Ellie. Yes, she is very well versed in what happened. She was in the next room with her sister when I caught XH in bed with the OW. In the aftermath of DDay through discussion with them it was revealed that she and her sister had also been discovering all of his various deviant masturbatory props, porn, my underwear, dildos etc. over the years and the two of them were afraid to talk to me about it, so they would throw them away. So I was doing my damndest to make sure they never found any of this stuff to protect them, but they were finding it anyway, and hiding it from me because they were afraid if I found out I would leave him, thus leaving them. It's all such a typical addict enabling story it's sad to know our family is such a cliche. Anyway, moved my story to General, but wanted to answer that. And yes, her getting pregnant is my biggest fear.

Chaos, you did NOTHING wrong. I know you know that already, but still, just here to echo that.

The old “I wouldn’t have gotten away with it too if it weren’t for that meddling Chaos…”

You aren't going to get gratitude like you deserve for this extremely good deed, but I am proud of you for doing the hard thing.

Principles only mean something when they are inconvenient.

I have definitely found out that a lot of people would rather live a beautiful lie than deal with an ugly truth. So yeah, the ones that are hating on you are intimidated by the fact that not only are you principled, but you put your money where your fucking mouth is and that is incredibly rare. Shallow shitty humans don't know how to deal with truth that shiny.

All of you lovely ladies are so damn smart. I appreciate all of you! These little nuggets need to be preserved somewhere. We should write a collective Womenz Wisdom book.

I'm also just throwing it out there that I haven't forgotten about a G2G... just been super busy with work, DD and the holidays. But work is slowing down and we tend to have a lull about midway through December until mid January, so will start trying to make some tentative plans then

Scooch over Chaos.

I have outed several cheaters over the years. I I have been accused of being obsessed, bitter, toxic, out of control.

So what?

But I am no cheater or liar!

(((Hugs)))

[This message edited by 20yrsagoBS at 9:25 PM, December 4th (Wednesday)]

It's obvious all of that falls under CoD, but my fch needs specifics. He has a really hard time seeing the big picture or extrapolating. It's like when you tell a kid to not jump ok n the furniture so they bounce instead. It's not about that particular fucking soc on the floor! It's about the fact that you don't put your dirty clothes in the basket!

Coco, oh man do I hear you on this... I don't have any good advice on how to handle this particular issue, because it's something I'm currently working on.

To me the only options were:

1) communicate the shit out of everything, going into great detail about why a behavior was a problem, giving copious examples and then asking him to work on it. While continuing to see the behavior, and continuing to ask for it to change, and never feeling like my needs were being met.

Or 2) Accept that certain behaviors were never going to change, and then either let the task/behavior go, and let things fall apart/go to shit, or for things that were important to me, just handle it myself.

Of course the other option that nobody likes to discuss is - you can always leave. I know I never wanted to hear that though. You've at least brought up that you're open to that idea, so you're lightyears ahead of where I ever was. The only way I was ever going to leave was in an extreme situation like my own. Unhealthy as it was, I was committed to going down swinging.

My question here is, do you think it's actually that he doesn't understand it and needs specifics, or that he is feigning a lack of understanding to get away with being lazy/half-assing things in recovery? Or worse yet, getting away with pushing your buttons?

I know you are exaggerating and providing a very basic example of kids jumping on the bed vs. bouncing. But we all know that look on a kids face when you say, "stop jumping on the bed," they then start bouncing instead, and when you call them out the kid says "whaaaat, you said no jumping, I'm not jumping, I'm bouncing." With that little smirk that means they know they're doing something they shouldn't, but they're doing it just to spite you. Or if they're really skilled at it, they won't even have the smirk, and they'll say it with a straight face even though you know they get it.

The hope is that over time your kids grow out of this need to push/test boundaries. But many of us here have spouses who clearly didn't. And the fact that you are giving examples of kids not doing things they're told/finding loopholes around the "rules" says to me that you see your CH as childish, even if the examples given aren't of his actual behavior. I guess what I'm asking is at what point are you parenting your husband? I'm not saying that with any judgment.

However I just wanted to point out something my IC has been emphasizing to me, that in many of the situations I recount to her, she sees me as filling the parental role. And I'm not trying to insinuate in any way that our spouses are similar. Our stories are so drastically different, that about the only thing your fCH and my XH have in common is the fact that they are cheaters. But I see a similar parent/child thread weaving through many of your posts. Maybe that is something you can identify with, maybe not. At the very least it sounds to me like you're doing a whole hell of a lot of the emotional labor in this relationship. I know how exhausting that is. I'm sorry you're having to deal with it.

Just want to emphasize that this is in no way a judgment of you. And I know several pages back you confessed that you can get defensive sometimes because your ego doesn't want you to admit that you would tolerate the same kind of behavior that other BWs have or continue to put up with. I get that too. I've got a pretty gnarly story when it comes to abuses/behaviors that I've tolerated, and I still see some of these posts and my knee jerk reaction is, "Well I would never put up with that." I did have to accept though that there are a ton of people reading my story thinking to themselves, "Holy shit, why in the hell did she stay?" You're not alone in the idea of that bruising your ego. Mine has been beaten up quite a bit. But there is something to be said for camaraderie. It's not a bad thing to acknowledge that while our husbands couldn't be more different, our experiences with them may have some remarkable similarities. Yes, every situation is unique, but there are recurring themes and patterns that when we put our heads together we all can work to address.

Anyway, I don't want to come off as condescending. I know tone is incredibly hard to convey over the internet, and I really just wanted to point out a theme I've noticed because I thought it might help you. But I hope that anything I've written has not offended, and of course, throw it all away if it doesn't apply to you.

HHADL - I so appreciate the fine line between meddling and support. But I do think it bears reminding her about the situation with her dad. Seems to me like she is falling in to the trap so many women do and marrying her dad. No bueno. If you can prevent that, it would be very good for her.

Coco - I don't know if yours is like this, but mine sure af was.

Some typical interactions.

Me: Please do [thing].

Him: (doesn't do thing)

Me: I'm pissed that you didn't do [thing].

Him: I forgot. (Conservatively, 9 millionth time he said those words.)

2 weeks later

Him: Please stop and grab [thing] on your way home from work.

Me: (frazzled after 10+ hours of work and all the idiot traffic, decides not to stop). Sorry, I didn't forget - I just really didn't feel like stopping.

Him: You never remember to get the things I ask you to.

(Bear in mind in the above scenarios, I work. He didn't.)

Also:

Me: Please do [thing].

Him: (does do thing, but does lazy half-assed job on thing.)

Me: (Redoes thing because of aforementioned lazy job on thing, but says nothing to him).

Him: It's like nothing I ever do is good enough for you!

(Spoiler alert, it wasn't).

Also:

Me: Please do [thing].

Him: (does do thing, does good job for once).

Me: (frazzled after 10+ hours of work and all the idiot traffic and having to get home and make dinner etc neglects to offer him the proper amount of fawning praise for [thing]).

Him: It's like you don't even notice that I help.

(Of course conveniently forgetting the 9 million times I have thanked him for shit that I shouldn't have to 'good boy' him over).

I think the crux of the issues in my M were for sure communication. He was appallingly bad at it to begin with, and after x years, I just gave up on trying cus I was so sick of the round-about bullshit.

Ellie you win the internet for the day!

Chaos,

You should be proud of yourself. On a regular basis I truly wish that someone had told me. It would have saved me so much pain. And a lot of years.

You did a kindness, maybe at some point they will realize it.

Huds. I am sure you feel badly.

HHADL - So sorry about your daughter. Wonderful that she is talking to you about it, you can help her so much.

do you think it's actually that he doesn't understand it and needs specifics, or that he is feigning a lack of understanding to get away with being lazy/half-assing things in recovery? Or worse yet, getting away with pushing your buttons?

He doesn't act this way just with infidelity stuff. It's with everything. He doesn't have to think about big picture stuff. In his job, he's given a task. He does it. It doesn't matter what came before or what comes next. All the focus is on the one task.

I do think that he focuses on the specific thing to avoid discussing the actual issue. I will tell him that m not talking about the sock anymore. I talking about how he handled me saying something about the sock. He will keep going back to the sock. I do think that's a deliberate attempt to avoid the perceived conflict.

I'm a little confused about the 2nd question. Are we talking about half assing getting out of infidelity or half assing every day stuff? I'll have to think about the infidelity part. He doesn't half ass life stuff. He's actually the one who has always done everything, taken care of everything. If anyone half asses stuff like that, it's me.

It's only very recently that he has stopped doing so much. I think that's a direct effort on his part to not be CoD. For example, when I came home one Saturday and saw him sitting on the couch, I asked if I should expect him to do nothing but watch football for the winter. He hadn't done any laundry. He used to do all the laundry every weekend. His response was to get upset that I was expecting him to do everything. I explained that there's a whole lot between all and nothing. He's always had this all or nothing thinking. So, he's gone from doing it all to doing nothing.

He does still do some things. He cooks dinner every night. He does the dishes almost every day. He does various other things, like taking the boys to their various activities, running errands for everyone.

I don't think he's doing it to push my buttons. Now that I'm writing more of this out, I think it's yet another communication issue. He's changing, but he's not talking to me about his changes. He's just doing them, and I'm left wondering wtf us happening.

As far as mothering him, I don't think I do that. I'm sure he would tell you that I don't. I assume we're talking about emotionally mothering him. I can tell you with absolute confidence that I don't mother him in terms of doing everything for him. Again, if anything he mothers (or mothered) me in that way.

Emotionally, I do feel like I am constantly explaining the same simplest things to him. I have come to the conclusion that he is just stupid. He has no EQ, that's for sure! I spent a lot of years trying to get him to engage with me. I eventually got tired of it and told him I wasn't going to do it anymore. He cheated. And, no, I'm not afraid he'll cheat again if I disengage.

I'm really not expending that much energy on this. I wasn't even concerned about any of this in terms of wayward behavior until I posted that vent and you all said it was wayward. I considered all of this stuff as us moving back into normal marriage shit.

Then, I read something on here about someone making a list of what they needed for continued R. I thought maybe that would be helpful. I'll write it all up, once. Talk to him about, once. Then, sit back and see what he does.

I'm going to explain my relationship with my fch a little more for perspective. I'll try not to write too much. I try not to use absolutes like always and never. I am deliberately using them here because it's the truth.

He has always done for me, always deferred to me. An example from when we were dating: I was sick. He stayed up all night cleaning my apartment after working all day, and went to work all day afterward. We always did what I wanted. Whenever I asked, he always said he wanted to do whatever I wanted to do.

It was to the point that we got in a huge fight while planning our wedding. We were looking at venues. I asked his opinion. His response was, "Whatever you want." I got mad because I truly wanted to know what he wanted. That was the first time we got in a fight about him not telling me what he thought or wanted. I didn't know that was a red flag of CoD. I did talk to my dad about how I wasn't sure I could spend the rest of my life with a "Yes" man.

Fast forward. We're married. Both working. My 10+yo son. He still does so much. I, literally, don't have to do anything. I get very spoiled. He joins the Marine Corps. I quit working to be a SAHM and, hopefully, have more babies. I turn out to be a great SAHM, but a horrible house keeper. House keeping is not my primary job, anyway. Fch continues to do a lot and more.

Over the years, more babies, less other work from me, less attention from me. He starts to get angry and resentful. He thinks I don't appreciate him. I know something is wrong. I ask and ask and ask. He always says that he's fine. Everything is fine. I get depressed. I shut down. He decides I don't love him. He feels like a failure because he can't make me happy.

During this time, he deploys 5 times, 2 times for a year. Every time he deploys he becomes more and more emotionally detached from me and disconnected from the family. He doesn't communicate any of this to me. He just keeps saying he's fine even when I take him to counseling with me. At some, he decides I'm cheating on him.

We live in NC. He moves to VA for a year for work in June 2013. The kids and I stay in NC because we don't know where he'll be sent after the year and don't want to move everyone too much. He starts cheating in April 2014. He finishes school and comes home in June 2014 to get my oldest married, pack everything up, and move us all to VA since that's where he'll be staying. Within a few days of him being home, I discover a text from the MOW that says, "Hey, babe. How are you doing emotionally?".

He takes the EA underground for another month. PA was already done. 6 months of TT. Full confession night before the polygraph. Since then, he has been discovering himself. Realized he is CoD and has given all his personal power (agency?) to me.

It's only in the past year that he has started trying to take his power back. Pushing back at me. Not doing everything because of his CoD tendencies. And, here we are.

Whew! Thanks for reading all of that if you made it through.

ETA: During all this time, I don't do much for him. So, no, I would say that I haven't ever mothered him. He has always been the responsible, consistent, reliable one. If anything, he has mothered me.

[This message edited by cocoplus5nuts at 8:27 AM, December 4th (Wednesday)]

Good morning ladies!

about to embark on what I hope is the last LONG (10+hrs) leg of driving my barbie car across the country. Yesterday I hit Az and NM and thought a LOT about Thelma and Louise (except for that last part :) )

Chaos- you did the right thing. Fuck those who try to fuck a BASGU messenger

Coco + hhdl lots going on and I'm thinking of you.

Fuck infidelity!

Go empowerment!

and Ellie - yes, you win Internet award of the day. Hopefully I'll make it to Denver sometime next year (I did a spring trip last year and loved it).