Ok, this is going to be a long one. I'll probably kill this thread, but so be it. I've avoided posting on this one because admittedly, it's triggery AF for me. But here I am, I couldn't stay away. I know it's almost at the 50 page limit, so I'm basically throwing gasoline on this dumpster fire and watching it burn. Feel free to start a new post piggy-backing off this one if you feel the need to respond. Or just PM me whatever hate I've got coming my way for being a misandrist, an SJW or whatever you want to call me. Hi, my name is HHADL. I don't care what you think of me as long as we can be civil towards one another. Nice to meet you. I also cuss, a lot. If you find that offensive, or unladylike, then fair warning, the rest of this post may not be for you. Let the judgement and name-calling begin! 
First off, Incarnate, your WW is a piece of shit. Sorry, can't help it, but fuck her. Chamomile hit the nail on the head here:
Your WW demeaned you... she did not define you. Only you get to define who you are. She was a cruel and insensitive individual who has no business defining anyone else's worth, let alone yours, who gave so much and received so little.
silverhopes, thank you for sharing your story. You certainly did not need to, but I also understand the impulse to share a personal story when reading these threads. It often feels like the only way to convey how truly painful these discussions can be. I wish we didn't have to get into such specifics, but it seems that trauma like this isn't understood unless you confess all of the dirty details. I also think that if any future partner so much as asked you to participate in that after hearing your story, they can take a long walk off a short cliff.
In solidarity, I'll tell you that I have a similar experience with deep throating. Your experience was much more consistent and pervasive over time, so I won't even say that mine is anywhere near as traumatic as yours. But unfortunately, this is not an uncommon story. Most women I know well enough to have had these conversations with have a similar one to tell.
Mine only happened once. My ex from college shoved my head down and made me throw up, then held my head there so he could finish even though I could barely breathe. He also blamed me for it, for not having good enough control over my gag reflex. Something which I believed at the time because he was the first person I had ever given a blow job, so I thought I was just bad at it. All it took was that one time to put me on edge.
The fucked up part was, that I internalized that message, that it happened because I wasn't good enough at it. Which led me to 2 years of trying to "prove myself" to him. He ended up breaking it off with me, stating that I was "marriage material" and he "just wasn't ready for that." So there I was, a newly sexually active 20 something with an ax to grind, and while I refused to have sex with anyone for a couple of years, I did "hook up" with several guys, all of whom I went down on, and most of whom I attempted to deep throat. None of them knew my past with it, so I'm sure they just appreciated it, or hell, probably even thought I might be a "slut," but it's Psychology 101 that I was attempting to prove myself. Not to them, but to myself.
I am sure there are men out there who have been traumatized in some way by giving oral. And for those men, I would like to hear their story, and I would certainly not hold it against them if oral were off the table after that. However, most men I know well enough to have had discussions re: their sexual histories have not experienced anything like that. Possibly just because anatomically, it is difficult for a woman to "force" that onto a man. However, most women I know well enough to have discussions on the topic, have had issues with oral getting out of hand. And yet, all of the women I know in that capacity continue to perform oral for their trusted sexual partners, because they know this is something they appreciate, or even because they themselves enjoy it. After experiencing something like that though, this is an extreme act of trust, and one that some people understandably may not be able to work through.
While I agree that it would suck if my partner wouldn’t go down on me, I agree with Ellie in that if he communicated that to me and I chose to move forward with a relationship with that off the table, then that’s on me. I have no problem with saying that if early on I discovered that oral was off the table, for any reason, including sexual trauma, or even participating in it before then deciding they didn’t like it, I would have a hard time getting past that. There might be many other things in our relationship that overpower not getting oral. I can’t say definitively that I wouldn’t continue the relationship. I have to admit, knowing that I would likely never experience an orgasm again without the aid of a toy would be something I would find very difficult to compromise on. I find toys to be incredibly dissociative, and IMO there is absolutely nothing like the experience of actually receiving it from a loving partner - the connection there is what turns me on. But maybe there is a toy that can simulate that well enough for me to be willing to let that go? Or maybe there is something else he does that blows my mind, so I'm okay with saying goodbye to that because our connection is so strong otherwise. I can't know for sure, I’ve never been put in that position. If I did choose to end the relationship over that, though, it would not be because I in any way saw their refusal of the act as a statement of my decreased value to them. I also wouldn’t view that person as being of lesser value because they wouldn’t provide that. We would simply be incompatible.
Now let's move on to the topic of "needing" variety, and that being the reason for introducing other sex acts. Bear in mind, I'm the XW of a sex addict, so the terms "need" and "variety" in combination send my blood pressure through the roof. Let's not ignore that for regular PIV sex there are multiple different positions you can try, which can help provide that variety that some might say is part of the reason to "expand the menu". Of those positions, there are some that could possibly be painful for the woman. Men I don't intend to exclude you, and if there are any that are painful for you that you have felt obligated to participate in due to pressure from a partner, I'm interested to hear those stories. However I more often hear these kinds of stories when it relates to women giving in to positions requested by men, so that is where I'm coming from here.
My own personal example. My XH is well endowed, and while I would have liked to enjoy doggy style with him, as I had with previous partners, it was incredibly painful with him. He LOVED it. But he loved it so much that he wanted to go really deep, and really fast, which given his size made me feel like I was literally going to pop. Even when he was going slowly, one wrong move and my insides felt like they were going to explode. The only way I could endure it - and yes, the word *endure* here is critical - was to touch myself while he did it. And no, that did not lead to me finishing, it was literally just to stave off the pain so that he could finish. I loved that he loved it, and so continued to try it at different speeds, rotations etc., but the anxiety of possible injury was just too much for me, so after a few times, I decided that particular item was no longer on the menu. And yes, I communicated all of the reasons why. And yet, he still felt that I was "cheating" him out of "my best," better known as "my best performance so that he could feel his best." Even though he was still orgasming regularly in all the other positions that worked for BOTH of us.
And the times he wasn't orgasming were due to his ED from - you guessed it! - his raging sex addiction. And because I saw how much distress he was in due to the ED, I still spent many, loving hours trying to help him relax so he could stop thinking about it and "get it up." Men talk about how their wives "gave it up" before marriage only to turn off the tap after? Well talk about something I didn't expect to be dealing with - after fucking like rabbits pre-marriage, all of a sudden he had an inability to maintain an erection that was so profound that we often spent hours in foreplay while he went up and down. And yet, I stayed and worked through this with him, rather than stepping out of my marriage to find sexual satisfaction elsewhere. Crazy concept.
I will admit, due to his passive aggression and unwillingness to be vulnerable and actually discuss issues, some of this is extrapolation on my part based on his vague whining about "lack of variety." Also the handful of times he talked about our prior sex life being "false advertisement," as if my body was a commodity that he bought for consumption at any time he wanted. But I can safely assume that since there was "more variety" before I took that act and a couple of others (most notably, dressing up in lingerie, since he continued to steal and destroy it) off the table, and his complaint was "lack of variety," that this had something to do with that complaint.
The more rational explanation for people who once engaged in certain acts and then no longer engage in them once they've arrived within the safety and comfort of a truly loving relationship is that they no longer feel the need to HIDE who they really are. Why ignore Occam's Razor on this subject? Why go for the more extreme and less likely explanation?
THIS!! I cannot even count how many times I repeated this.
Let's go back to college ex-boyfriend. As I mentioned before, I spent 2 years after the DT gag reflex issue trying to prove myself. It progressed from DT, to anal sex. He just would not drop the topic. I had never previously had any interest in exploring that, it didn't seem like it would be in any way pleasurable for me, but the nagging was just too much, and I had a girlfriend who had done it and loved it, so I gave in figuring I would give it a shot. I tried it once, hated it. Painful as all hell, and in absolutely no way pleasurable for me, like I expected. Again, the only way I got through it was to touch myself during it. Figured I would try it one more time, still hated it, then took it off the table. He was not happy about that and was very vocal about it. I stupidly continued dating him.
He also incessantly nagged me to have a threesome with another woman. Even used my phone to text my best friend “as me” to proposition her for one. Needless to say, that didn’t go over well. That one I would not budge on. That was not something I needed to try to know it wasn't and isn't for me. I can appreciate when a woman is attractive, but on the Kinsey scale, I'm a 0. Also, even if the suggestion were a threesome with another man, that would be missing a critical point which is: I don't share, nor do I want to be shared.
Unfortunately, this douchenozzle ended up cheating on me multiple times, the worst with a different "friend." Even after I "gave up the good stuff," there it was again, the messaging that I wasn't good enough, that I was somehow not satisfying him. And of course my brain went haywire - if I had just learned to like anal sex, would that have kept him from cheating on me? If only I had just had a threesome with him, would that have been enough?
I was immature then, and more importantly, insecure, so I let that messaging get to me. I tried things I didn't want to, in the name of "keeping him satisfied" Because if I was sexually free enough, I could keep him happy, right? WRONG.
After I gained some self esteem and got over the need to prove myself, I set strict boundaries around sex acts. Anal was taken off the table for all future partners, forever and ever, amen. Threesomes were always a no-go, and that was communicated up front as well. If after I communicated any of those boundaries, and all of my very logical reasons for them, someone even so much as tried to hint that I should "just try it" or "do it for them?" Oh hell no, I was out the door so fucking fast it would make their head spin. The asking for the acts was already a red flag for me, as it communicates to me that this is something they want. I am not willing to cross my boundaries to give it to them, so the question now is, would they be willing to cross mine in order to get it? If I feel they truly understand why, and will not push it or regret the decision later, then that is something we can put to bed. But to then push that boundary by trying to convince me that what I want isn't actually what I want? I'm out.
My XH broached these topics, but when denied and given explanations for the denials he did not push the matter and seemingly understood. He jokingly said that "the only way I would want a threesome is if we could somehow clone you!" My not-so-joking reply? "Nope, still wouldn't work, because HHADL doesn't share, even with clone HHADL!" I saw this as a positive sign that we were compatible. I did NOT know that he was building up resentments for my unwillingness to satisfy his sexual fantasies. That he believed I didn't love him because I would not engage in acts that made me uncomfortable. Honesty about these desires would have been better. But he wanted a relationship with me so bad, he shoved those things down, thinking he could bury them, then resented me for them instead. I do think that some of this resentment was due to misguided insecurity on his part regarding my willingness to do some of these acts with other men before him, but not with him. Again, if he had just talked this out with me, he would have known that.
Agree 100% with ChamomileTea here:
You read it correctly. I do not believe that a man who is secure in himself can be "emasculated" by the actions of another. If a man knows who he is, respects himself, and is secure in his own definition of masculinity, it doesn't matter what other people do. Same thing for women regarding the feminine. We define ourselves and are not defined by others.
This! He insisted that I was no longer attracted to him due to his masturbation, and that was why I didn't want those acts anymore. He let this ride his self esteem into the ground. It was like he somehow could not hear the reality which was - your penis is literally so big that it hurts me, and I'm not a masochist so I'm not into that!
Re: this pair bonding stuff. I was very open about my sexual past. If I’m being honest, I don’t know the exact numbers. I can tell you that I “hooked up with” (ie performed oral on and was fingered by) more men than I had sex with. Other than that, I can safely guess the total number was somewhere higher than 20 and lower than 30. If I really wanted to I could write it all out, but the truth is I didn't keep track because the number didn't matter to me that much. What mattered to me was that each and every time I consented, and whether it was a ONS or a FWB, I believed the person to be someone decent enough to not judge me or screw me over. If I ever found out otherwise, they were gone, quickly. I can also tell you that while I had plenty of casual, non-committed sex in my 20s, once I’m committed, I’m as monogamous as they come. I was deeply, undeniably in love with my XH. He was the first person I wanted to talk to when I woke up, the last person I wanted to talk to before I went to bed, and the one person I would talk to consistently, all day, every day, because I not only considered him a partner, but my best friend. In no way did the sexual activities of my past affect my ability to pair bond with him. I work in the entertainment industry, among models, dancers, actors etc. We also work long hours, where long stretches without communication with our partners are not only conceivable, but expected. If anyone is in a position where APs would be both easily accessible and manageable to hide from my partner, it’s me. And yet, through all of our trials and tribulations, the discovery of his sex addiction, his emotional abuse, etc. I never once thought about cheating, emotionally or physically. I am propositioned frequently, both online and in person by the skeevy men that seem to permeate my industry, in addition to garden variety douchebags, and yet I somehow manage to always shut it down in the moment, as well as notify my partner of said proposition immediately. Fancy that.
Also I feel it should be noted that all of this is coming from someone who LOVES sex. It grinds my gears when these discussions turn into "you just can't possibly understand, I'm a man, ergo sex drive, biology, spreading seed, etc." In no way do I consider myself vanilla in bed. I enjoy dressing up, all sorts of different positions, locations, dirty talk etc. XH often extolled my "talents" and frequently said that we could easily make a million dollars on a sex tape. Lest anyone think I was completely naive, I instantly saw that as a thinly veiled attempt to get me to agree to tape ourselves, one which I very quickly put the kibosh on. I also think it sucks that women or men whose sexual tastes are more "vanilla" give opinions on these threads and they are considered less valuable because of the aforementioned, "you just don't understand!" ness of it all. Anyway, upon first discovery of his sex addiction, I'll admit I ramped things up under the misguided notion that if I gave him enough, the other acts (mutilating my underwear) would die down. Unfortunately I was also not fully versed in sex addiction, and so did not understand that there was no way to satiate the insatiable. As his behaviors got worse instead of better and this boundary crossing eroded my sense of safety in engaging in those acts with him, I slowly took each of them off the table. Then, even acts I did enjoy started falling away. I, a person who had a high sex drive and valued it very highly, suddenly had next to no sex drive, and was denying acts I had previously very much enjoyed, like lingerie and role play. And I was naive in believing that this particular partner, you know, the one I had dedicated my life to, would trust that I took those acts off the table for good reason, and that the trauma associated with those acts was understandable. I was open to bringing certain acts back, but only after rebuilding that trust and sense of safety. In his eyes I was "mean mommy" for taking away his "toys," an attitude which certainly did not promote any sense of trust or safety, thus ensuring both of our unhappiness with our sex life.
I also love giving blow jobs, despite some trauma with them. It is one of my favorite things to do in bed, and I love getting my partner off in that way. As I came to find out, I'm also, contrary to ex college bf’s assessment, damn good at it. However, trauma like that doesn't go away, so I always have in the back of my mind that my head could be shoved down again. I keep myself in a position so I can push away at any time. XH tried to push me down once, I do believe just in the heat of the moment, but I still let him know that was his one and only free pass. We also used to 69, and when he was on top, I would get anxiety because I couldn't pull my head away and I would feel like I was choking, so I stopped doing that too. Instead of understanding why that would be difficult for me, he wanted me to find a way to push myself to my limits, to tolerate it, because it was oh so fun for him. Once I decided that was no longer for me, I never gave into it again, but that was yet another resentment for him to add to his list. I for one cannot understand how anyone could see their partner in pain, or even just emotionally uncomfortable, and still insist they do that. As much as I love giving blow jobs, if a partner of mine confessed to me that he can't do that anymore because he had a bad experience with someone biting him before or some other trauma, I would completely understand that and I wouldn't push the issue. There are other ways for us both to enjoy each other.
I think most would agree that not only do we want, but we expect the best our partners have to give. In my situation with my wife, she showed an awful lot of thought and planning, and spent an awful lot of time and energy on her sex life with her physically, emotionally, sexually, abusive, violent, druggie and adulterous ex husband. It was a very unhealthy relationship for sure, and much of the specifics were done from a very bad place. I get that, and I do not ever want her to feel that kind of duress or desperation in our relationship. However...
All that shows exactly how driven she can be, how much effort she can put in to please someone who was horrible to her. I don't want or need anything from her that she would have to give from a place of fear. Even though it might appear totally differently in her actions, compared to her ex husband, I do expect to feel as if she is giving her all to our relationship and sex life. I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a level of enthusiasm, engagement, and initiative that is at least at the level it was for past partners.
You make some great points straha, specifically the bolded parts above. I think this is where many of these threads start breaking down and dividing us into camps. Because for some reason, many men seem to think that in order for it to be considered comparable, the woman needs to engage in these exact same acts, or else she must not love him as much or be as attracted to him.
But it's not about the act itself, it is about the caring and devotion that is put into ensuring that both partners have a pleasurable and connected experience. If a man came to me and told me that he doesn't give oral to women because it's gross, offered no other solution but jackrabbit sex, but was shocked when I wouldn't DT, or even give him a BJ, I would say "Bless your heart," and move right along. That, to me, is a selfish person who I have no interest in engaging with. If however a man came to me and let me know that he had sexual trauma in his past, and he was unwilling to perform oral because of it, but that he knew this would be a difficult thing for me to give up because it's the only surefire way for me to orgasm, so he was willing to try a number of other things in order to make that happen in other ways, totally different story. With that kind of person, I might be open to the possibility of exploring different positions, or toys that he could use on me that might do the trick.
IME, the only reason I've ever gotten from a man to not go down on a woman is "I just don't like it" or some version of, "It's icky." But also IME, these men have absolutely no problem with saying blowjob or bust. Let me tell you, penises aren't pretty, and blow jobs aren't easy. They also, as in silverhopes' story, have the potential to seriously hurt you. And yet, we still do it. Because we choose to for any number of reasons, including the pleasure of our partner, or *gasp* our own pleasure! It doesn’t negate the fact that it is a choice though, and any one of us has the right to choose what we participate in.
I can think of two guy friends in college who said something to this effect. The first was actually a FWB I used to hook up with, one of the "I won't do you, but I expect you to do me" variety. Well lo and behold, he ended up meeting the girl he would marry, and it turns out he learned to like it. It is possible that he hates it and does it as a sacrifice, but I have no reason to believe that either of them would lie to me about that. The second guy, well, he turned out to be gay and came out a year later.
I think the reason many women in these threads put their dukes up is because they've experienced situations like the former. Because many of us have encountered the type of man who seems to understand the concept of boundaries perfectly when it comes to his own - I don't do oral, I just don't like it! or Nobody is putting anything in my butt, no fucking way! - but seems oblivious to, or willing to push to the limit, those of others - Come on baby, just try deep throating it, it'll feel so good! or Please, I know you tried anal before and didn't like it, but it'll be different because it's me! I promise I'll go slow and be gentle! And if their partner happened to have engaged in that act with someone else before them, when denied, many of them progress to, You must have loved him more than me or Fine, I guess you're just not as attracted to me as you are to him as a manipulation tactic.
You have every right to want what you want from a partner sexually and to convey that desire to your partner openly and honestly. However, they have the right to deny you. Absolutely nobody has the right to tell me that if I won't perform a specific sex act that I must not love them, care for them, or be attracted to them. Or to weaponize my love for them against me, asking me to offer up my body as a sacrifice to prove that love. Anyone who tries to pull that with me can pound sand. To quote OIN:
Push on my boundaries? Ask me to prove my love by going against my own boundaries? That sounds like a you problem...not a me problem. For sure.
You aren't one of those guys? Awesome! Women have been dealing with guys like that for centuries though, and while it's certainly gotten a lot better, it's still pretty pervasive. Maybe help your SI sisters out and spread the word that sexual coercion is wrong? I'll return the favor by continuing to tell women that they are pieces of shit for using men as a drink or meal ticket, even when they have no interest in them. Accepting that it is the norm, and learning to work within that norm instead of pushing for it to be better really isn't working for anybody. Deal? Cool. 
My biggest point here is that my refusal to explore certain acts, or my denial of acts previously engaged in, has absolutely nothing to do with my attraction to or love for my partner. My devotion to him in the ways I am willing to give it, does. That doesn't even necessarily mean sexually. I can be devoted in any myriad of ways. Sex is one undeniable way, but so is taking care of him when he's sick, helping him edit an email he's unsure about, taking care of his broken windshield for him because I know he's overwhelmed at work and doesn't have time to do it himself, cooking his favorite meal because I know he's had a long day and could use some comfort food, and the list can go on, and on and on. On his end, the way he helped get my brother to the hospital when he had his first manic episode, how he would rub my feet at night after I had been on them all day, pick up my favorite beverage on his way home also showed me his devotion to me, all completely non sexual, all acts of love and devotion that I take just as seriously as any other.
And RIO, before you even jump in with the outsourcing argument that "anyone else in my life like my mother, father, sibling, friend or even someone I pay like a maid, delivery service, or masseuse, could provide me with that, sex is the only thing my spouse can provide that I can't outsource to anyone else!" let me stop you right there. Because I am of the camp that any action such as those I described above, when performed by a loving, devoted spouse, has infinitely more meaning than if performed by anyone else. So let's just nip that argument in the bud. You have every right to believe that. I have every right to believe the opposite. I think we would both agree that these oppositional beliefs mean that we would make horribly incompatible spouses and life partners. Good thing neither of us is interested in that! Ok, moving on.
Furthermore, if someone were physically incapable of sex, would that mean they love me less? No. Did his inability to complete sex due to his ED mean he didn't love me? Absolutely not! My denial of specific acts does not mean that he is not good enough, or that I don't love him enough, just as his ED doesn't reflect on my value. Yes, his was a physical issue, and not a boundary. But the concept is similar. Whether someone is physically incapable of something, or just psychologically unwilling, are they both not boundaries that should be respected? If my SO were in a car accident and became a paraplegic, I wouldn't roll a soccer ball towards him and expect him to kick it. I love playing soccer, but do I judge my SO for being unable to kick the ball back to me? Do I believe he loves me less? No, I do not. Why can't we treat traumatic injuries that might lead to boundaries the same way? If I was raped, and I need to have sex with the lights on to feel comfortable, is that too much to ask?
The only difference is that with a physical injury, that boundary cannot be pushed. He cannot kick the soccer ball, no matter how many times I roll it his way. But with relational boundaries, yeah, those can be pushed, and are. Often to their limits. But they shouldn't. Boundaries are a reflection of self-love. I love myself enough to draw a boundary, and I trust him to respect that boundary and not feel the need to constantly test it. His perception that my refusal of these acts is a reflection of my love for him is his own insecurities, and frankly, wayward thinking talking. His pushing my boundaries to their limits is a problem. My refusal to leave when pushed to said limits is also a problem.
What's so amazing to me about threads like this one, is that even past the point where people can agree on one issue (the wife lied) or even two (people deserve the opportunity to assess compatibility), we still end up with the "fallen woman owing sexual acts whether she enjoys them or not as proof of her love" fallacy. It's a frankly disgusting piece of misogyny every time I see it. It's so disingenuous to reject the Madonna/Whore complex as explanatory, but then to see it fully enacted once a woman has done something which puts her in the "whore" context of that particularly delusional equation.
Women are PEOPLE, and nothing one does or doesn't do transforms her into some kind of sexual vending machine. Full stop.
This is basically just turning into a summation of all of CT's posts, but this bears repeating.
A woman refusing anal, or deep throating, or any other "outside the norm" sex act is perfectly acceptable. So is a man refusing oral, or any other sex act, if he so chooses, though I will admit, a comparable act here would not be oral, it would be pegging. (Side note: I think that's the other reason why so many women in these threads are perturbed by the tit for tat language, because the "trade" isn't even. At least for me, the "tit" of anal sex on the women's side is nowhere near equal to the "tat" of oral sex on the man's side, and for whatever reason these seem to be the two acts that are most often thrown about in these threads. I digress).
Let's just discuss a point of basic biology. I am trying my best to avoid generalizations here, as in, I try to account for all of the possibilities, so sisoon, forgive me if I misstep, I'm doing my best not to trigger you. PIV sex was designed for men to orgasm, not for women. If we happen to orgasm from it, that's just a happy byproduct of that act. Some women can O from that, and that is great for them! But many, many women can't, OR, if they're like me, it is rare as hell. I can count on one hand the number of times that has happened, and honestly I can't even tell you why it happened to work those times, it just did. As great as PIV feels for you guys, most of the time it's merely friction, for me at least. For me to truly enjoy myself during that act, I have to touch myself, or have my partner touch me. Yes, there is a closeness and a bonding that I feel from doing it, so there's that. And I love to know that my partner is enjoying it! But if we're talking purely from an O standpoint, that's men 1, most women 0.
Then we go to oral. Most men can finish from that as well. My XH is the only man I know who had difficulty finishing that way - as in twice in our entire 6+ years together and innumerable blow jobs - but considering that I've never had that issue with any other man, and that XH consistently begged for BJs because he loved them so much, I can assume that was a byproduct of his compulsive masturbation and nothing to do with me. So considering I've literally never heard of anyone else having that issue, let's say he's an outlier, and just assume that most men can finish that way. So can most women. In fact, as RIO pointed out, it is the only way that many women can climax. So on the orgasm count, we have men 2, women 1.
So if a man were to withdraw his participation in oral, you're right RIO, he's potentially taking away the one way that many women can achieve orgasm. Not all, but certainly many. He still, in all likelihood, has 2 ways to O though.
Most women I know will have regular old penetrative vaginal sex, and will also go down on their partner, and will also give them a hand job. Most men I know will have vaginal sex, go down on their partner, and finger them. So all acts themselves being equal, it appears to be a level playing field. However Os are much harder to achieve for women, and sometimes are not even achievable when engaged in 1 or 2 of those acts. So, men already have THREE tried and true ways of O'ing, none of which require anything overly painful on the female's part, and at least things like jaw pain, or even vaginal pain can be navigated with rest breaks, lubricant etc. The fact of the matter remains that purely from a "getting off" standpoint, men have the upper hand.
Now does anyone else hear how incredibly selfish it sounds that in addition to PIV, oral, and hand jobs, you ALSO "need" access to my ass, or you "need" me to choke myself on your dick, or any other act because without it our sex life is considered vanilla? How manipulative it is to say, either directly or through insinuation, that if I don't give that up, I'm not giving you "my best," or I just must not find you attractive or love you enough, because apparently, once you've done those acts with anyone at all, you've signed a contract for a lifetime of doing things you don't like, or even things that hurt you, all in the name of stroking any future partner's ego? How condescending it is to be told that your preferences aren't your preferences, that even though I've made up my mind that this is a no-go for me, I should give in and do it for my partner because it will be so different with him? Fuck. That. Shit.
And the same goes for men and their preferences. If anal sex every night is truly your preference, and you don't see yourself able to have a satisfying sex life or marriage without it, it is not wrong to insist on marrying someone who has similar tastes! It might make your search more difficult, sure, but it is not wrong to want that. Your preferences are your preferences, your boundaries are your boundaries. It's only hypocritical when you hold your partner to a different standard than you hold yourself. To be a person of high partner count who enjoys casual, and oftentimes anal, sex, to consistently date someone with similar partner count who also enjoys casual, and oftentimes, anal, sex, but deem them unmarryable because sharing those preferences means they cannot pair bond, or are more likely to cheat, is laughable. Then to date and marry someone who has explicitly told you that this act, something you deem absolutely essential to maintaining interest in your sexuality, is off the table? Well that's just about the most illogical line of reasoning I can think of. I agree, the woman from the OP absolutely should have told this guy that she had done it with other people, even enjoyed it with them, and just didn't want it anymore. But whether she has never done it and doesn't want to start, or she has done it with 100 other guys, and no longer wants to continue, the fact of the matter remains that hubby ain't getting it either way. It is disingenuous to want that, settle for someone who doesn't want it, then tell yourself you don't want that, continue a relationship with them and hold resentments for it.
I'm guilty of this too. I wanted a fully-functioning adult who knew how to handle his shit and be both a lover AND a true life partner. He was good at faking that in the beginning. But when he showed me who he was and consistently failed to live up to this challenge time and time again, but I married him anyway? Well, that's on me. Yeah, there were glimmers of hope in there, sure. Sometimes he even managed to wake up, get himself to work on time, take care of his daily tasks with the kids, and show me even a modicum of affection, all by himself. What a good boy. He deserves a gold fucking star. But it was on me to stop doling out brownie points for common human decency and basic adulting skills. He is 100% responsible for every action he took, but I am also 100% responsible for each of my own reactions. While she didn't give the full reasons why, at least you knew you weren't getting anal sex, or a blowjob or whatever it was. It wasn't like he asked the question and she replied "I'm not telling, you'll have to marry me to find out!"
Also, this whole "but she said she enjoyed it!" argument gets me going. It seems pretty obvious based on the boss' willingness to show the video to the whole office that he is a manipulative fuck. Also, her reaction in wanting to run away from this guy rather than talk to him again read as a lot of fear to me. Are we not all smart enough to watch this movie, see these context clues and go, "Oh, yeah, he probably coerced her into acts she wasn't into."? I mean seriously, it's not a stretch. As evidenced by my college BF stories, I've BTDT. Also, it is totally conceivable that she would appear to enjoy it, even if it was painful, or simply something she didn't like. a) It is scary how similar sounds of pain and pleasure can be. b) she could easily be faking it, either to get them to finish faster so it would be done and over with, or because she's afraid of the repercussions if she doesn't act like she's enjoying it.
And judging by the husband's immediate pressing of charges, and winning the case for revenge porn, he obviously knows this guy is a fuckwad. My biggest issue with his post is that in doing the acts for him, that would be considered "her best," but by doing the acts for others, and not him, that makes her a "slut."
I don’t know exactly how many partners my spouse had before me, but I have a rough idea. I don’t know the specific acts she did before and I don’t find it particularly interesting. I view sex as a very important bonding mechanism. My spouse bonded in the past. Ok. At the end of the day, my spouse chose to marry me, not the previous relationship, so I can only assume that she likes me better as an "overall package". For sex, we find a middle ground where we both enjoy it, within a framework of love and respect.
Thank you for this Shutter. I think this is where I land as well. I've had great sex with complete assholes who I would never in a million years consider marrying. Even if the sex act itself isn't "better" with my partner, I would need any future partner to understand that I married them because I believed they were overall the best partner for me. Any entertainment or thoughts of sexual competition between them and any prior partners would be a HUGE red flag for me. And I would hope that we could explore acts that were mutually enjoyable, within the framework of each of our personal boundaries.
I was obviously wrong about my XH being a good partner for me, but many of the factors that went into making that decision were based on misinformation from him, a reason why deception in any form is such a trigger for me. My username is HeHadADoubleLife, after all. Alas, for me, my SAXH is still the best sex I've ever had, both physically and emotionally. So unfortunately, I do think there will be some physical comparison with future partners that will be somewhat unavoidable. However, I do not in any way think that this will hinder my ability to love someone else in the future, and I would hope that my emotional connection with them would supersede any perceived difference from a physical standpoint.
Sort of flipping the script here, I have a very strong aversion to toys, due to trauma from my cheating ex-wife weaponizing their use. The aversion has it's roots in how it completely depersonalizes any feeling of connection I have with the person I am with. Early on with my current wife, I took toys off the table, but didn't give a reason why other than they just weren't my thing. Huge lie of omission. She didn't question me any further at the time and accepted my answer, but I knew it was something she really liked, I knew I had the information that would have given her clarity if it were to ever come up, but I chose to withhold it. It would likely never have mattered until it came out that my ex-wife and I were a test couple for new toy product lines. Yeah, that didn't go over well with my current wife. Caused her to understandably question a whole lot of things. If I had just been open and honest from the beginning, it would have been a complete non issue. As it was, she did accept and understand the trauma I had experienced. She also made it clear that she would not have accepted my past with my ex-wife had it been something positive my ex and I shared while denying her the same. And I get her feelings.
Thank you for sharing your story here straha. The topic of male sexual trauma has often come up in these threads, but we rarely see accounts of the actual issue, as they are mostly brought up as hypotheticals, as in "well men are assaulted too you know!" I am so glad you shared your story, as I hope it gives others the strength to share theirs. While many assaults and other traumas go unreported in the female population, the rate of reporting is even lower for males due to the stigma, something which should most definitely be addressed. I'm not saying that you were assaulted, since that wasn't the term you used, but any form of male sexual trauma is important to talk about.
And yes, I agree, your lie of omission created issues with your current wife. And I also completely understand why you did not disclose this information at the time. Many women, like myself, find themselves in a similar position, where they previously engaged in sex acts that they now find shameful or difficult to talk about. Would you say that this is one of the reasons you did not disclose this to your current wife? This is often why these lies occur. Shame, or the fear of judgement, or worse, sexual coercion.
However, it seems you now understand that this is all the more reason to be completely open about everything from the beginning! Letting shame rule us puts us all in compromising positions. If your current wife were to judge you for this unwillingness to use toys after your trauma, would that not make her an incompatible partner for you? I was totally honest with my XH about my sexual history. That I don’t remember each and every one, but I know that I was much more discerning when it came to actual PIV sex. He claims to have only had 5 sexual partners before me. Considering that the only part of his sex addiction I knew about was compulsive masturbation, I chose to believe him. He insisted that he is not a jealous man, but it was obvious that my partner count bothered him, judging by his response to it. He tried to float the idea that my sexual past was somehow “bad.” I told him if he didn’t like it, he didn’t need to date me. When he started saying stuff about “Well I don’t believe that people should have sex casually like that, I’ve only ever had sex with women I’ve been in relationships with,” I was quick to point out “Well, you fucked me on your kitchen table the day after our first date, so either you’re full of shit, or you believed us to be in a relationship after one date. Which one is it? I’ll wait.” He avoided conceding that point by saying that he “just knew” that “what we had was special.” 
I cannot grasp why anyone in any circumstances would voluntarily enter a pre-infidelity relationship with someone they don't think they can trust with the truth. If you can't trust them to honor and respect and want you because of something you did sexually, but no longer do, that's the wrong person. If it's someone who isn't willing or able to be honest about what they once did and no longer want to do and why, that's the wrong person. I don't think it's reasonable to expect those answers on Day 1, but if you believe you'll never be able to honestly answer or get an honest answer to these sexual questions, then that's an alarm bell to me that the relationship won't get where it needs to go. For whatever reason, you suspect that you can't trust them with your true self. And my inclination would be to say that we've all had far too much time already on that merry-go-round.
BSR, you killed it, as usual. I was completely open and honest with my XH because I loved him and trusted him with that information. No, I didn't rattle off my sexual resume on our first date, but if/when he asked, I answered. I expected the same from him, and ended up sorely disappointed. There are still things he knows about me that nobody else on the planet knows. Things I hope to share with a future partner. If I cannot have that level of vulnerability and honesty with someone, then that is not a relationship worth continuing. While I definitely could have chosen a better partner, and I made some bad judgement calls along the way, I still think that barometer is the best one. If I don’t want to bare my soul to you, we have no future.
Again, I dispute the concept that a sexual past, or lack thereof, has inherent moral value. Someone like have loads of sex with loads of people, loved every second of it, no regrets, and be kind monogamous and respectful. So what did that sexual.past tell you? Nothing. Another person could come from a religious family and wait until marriage for sex, and then regret they only have one sexual partner, and then cheat. So what did that last tell you? Nothing.
LLXC, you are spot on with this.
Funny thing is, I had easily 4 times as many partners as XH did, and yet, I did not cheat. He supposedly was the “more discerning” of the two of us, and he ended up fucking the OW in our bed, and contacting at least 5 different escorts that I know of. We hear stories like that here all the time. I think morally, the only judgment I’m willing to make on someone’s sexual history is in the case of rape, assault, sexual coercion, anything involving children, or if they cheated on a partner. There are probably some others I'm forgetting about, but yeah, that's the gist. I don’t feel badly about labelling any of those actions as wrong. I also firmly believe that despite all of his fucked-up-edness and his participation in many acts that I would label “wrong”, my XH is not a wholly “bad” person. He is a human, who made and continues to make many terrible and hurtful decisions which have caused great pain to the people he claims to love. He is not a victim of his past choices, nor do they prevent him from making better ones in the future. He can decide to make better choices at any time. I certainly hope he does, for his daughters’ sake.
Having been betrayed, I truly do understand how hard we can be on ourselves. But why can't we recognize that as the problem, not as something we should cling to as truth? There's nothing sexually inadequate about me, regardless of what my inner critic would have me believe. That's my pain talking, not my truth.
Seconding OwningItNow, ChamomileTea for president!
My XH's sex addiction is in no way a reflection on me. It didn't progress to dildos, and cock rings, and escorts because I couldn't satisfy him. It escalated as all addictions do, because he is an addict. When all of the other attempts to boost his self esteem and quell his anxieties didn't work, he chose to self soothe with APs vagina because he hated looking in the mirror and seeing all of his inadequacies and failures reflected back at him.
So in my very long-winded answer to the OP, yes, sexual history absolutely does matter, just not in the way we all would like it to. As if there is somehow a magical number, or sex act that as long as your partner is below that number, or hasn’t performed that act, you are guaranteed a marriage free of betrayal. Like WornDown said:
The assumption that because a person (usually the woman in these threads) had a lot of sexual partners in the past means they are more likely to be unfaithful?
Guess what? One has NOTHING. ZERO. ZIP. NADA to do with the other.
That's exactly what these threads are about - trying to figure out what future partners will/will not be unfaithful.
I thought I knew about my XHs sexual past. It is part of the reason I agreed to marry someone who I knew to be a sex addict via compulsive masturbation - I felt as if the fact that it was "out in the open" (at least between the two of us) and that we could talk about it, meant that this was the devil I knew. In a supremely warped way, his use of my own underwear sealed the deal on that too, as he painted it as a twisted way of showing how much he was attracted to me, because “at least I’m not doing anything with anyone else.” I'll admit, when I first heard of his low partner count, I had reservations. While the number was understandable because he had been married for a time, then a single dad of two daughters, I still worried this might lead to him feeling as if he hadn't fully lived his life before settling down again. But after numerous discussions, and my persistence in verifying that he wasn't going to feel "stuck" or like he hadn't adequately "experienced singlehood" and all that had to offer, I was convinced that what he was saying was true, that he just did not have sex without being in monogamous relationships. That combined with his own betrayed status (a double betrayal, his ex wife and older brother), I thought I had basically ensured a betrayal free life for myself. Boy was I fucking wrong.
Though I now believe his low count to be a total fabrication, the number here really wasn't the point. Either way, whether his count was low as he claimed, or astronomical as I now believe, he still cheated. His immaturity, inability to foresee long term consequences due to short term decisions, entitlement, and dishonesty were much better indicators of my future with him, even moreso than generational addiction or his other FOO issues. Partner count and betrayal status certainly had nothing to do with it.
To commit to what? If you define marriage as "I promise not to fuck anyone else until I decide that I want to, and then if you disagree, I'm out with no hard feelings," then what have you really committed to?
Awwww, BSR. The marriage vows every spouse is just dying to hear! 
Yeah, someone's track record with commitments is probably the highest thing on the list now for me, far more important than partner count or prior sexual acts. However, partner count and sex acts come into play when you combine them with that loose understanding of commitment as well as shitty coping mechanisms. Or it could not. We're all gambling here! The point is I think that everyone can agree it's unfair to play poker without all the cards on the table.
Had I known the true extent of his sexual proclivities - escorts, dildos, cross-dressing, men - and more importantly, his willingness to cross boundaries and risk my physical and emotional health in order to get those "needs" met, I would have been saved a lot of heartache. Not to mention the thousands of dollars I've shelled out for intense therapy. He has every right to want to indulge in those things. I have every right to say that I will not be in a relationship with someone who continues to want those things while in a relationship with me. He did not have the right to deny my agency by withholding that information. His refusal of transparency with that information says a lot more to me than his actual partner count does. It says he is a liar, first. Second, it shows he has a lot of shame, and we all know shame is poison. Who knows, he could have told me all of that, and I might very well still have continued in a relationship with him. Knowing myself, I probably would have gotten us into therapy and tried to work on things from every different angle. But the point is, I would have known everything I needed to know to make an informed decision without being gaslit in the process.
My own sexual past also does very much matter. Not because my casual sexual history will “cause” me to cheat, or because it makes me morally repugnant, or because I have a madonna/whore complex and will feel the need to dry up any of my sexual activity once I am a wife. I'm awesome in bed, sexually adventurous, have what some would consider a "high" partner count, have *gasp!* had anal sex, and am still a badass wife who is faithful as hell, a devoted, kickass mother, a sympathetic, tells-it-like-it-is friend and a loving, appreciative daughter. And I'm also NOT a cheating asshole, imagine that! But the traumas I've endured will most certainly inform any future relationships I have. There are many sexual acts I have no interest in ever participating in again. I can love my partner more than anyone I’ve ever loved before, and those acts will still be off the table. I now have a laundry list of very specific things I will need to confirm with future partners, some that will likely be laughable to most. Do you like to masturbate with and want to continue to masturbate with women's underwear? Do you use and want to continue to use cock rings? Have you ever paid for sex, or do you find the prospect of paying for sex exciting or a worthwhile alternative should sex for any reason dwindle? Have you put yourself in compromising positions in order to have sex? Have you ever masturbated while your children were in earshot? Not likely scenarios to come across, but hell, I did encounter every single one of them, and now feel the need to protect myself against them. Do I want to have that conversation and break out my long list of deal-breakers? Nope, I really wish I didn't have to. But NOT discussing them is just setting myself up for failure.
Porn use is also now a non starter for me. My only hope is that any future potential partners will actually be honest about their use of it, because discovering it in any capacity is so triggering to me I can’t imagine living through that again. I recognize that this takes many, many potential partners off the table. However, if porn use is so important to someone else that it precludes me from having a relationship with them, so be it! And if that comes out early so we are able to sever ties cleanly and without malice, then thank the universe! Because I would never be happy in a relationship with someone where I might even accidentally come across a pornographic image, let alone know they were regularly using it. And a person who sees that as a necessary part of their sexuality would most certainly not be happy in a relationship with me! I spent years allowing my boundaries to erode, and as OwningItNow put it:
I've spent a lot of time and money learning to have strong boundaries wherever they are needed to protect my dignity.
Because I love myself, I won't ever break those boundaries again. They were hard-won, and I ain’t giving them up for nothing!
Ok, I'm sure I'm hitting a word limit at this point. Anyway...
I get why these threads are inflammatory. I can see both sides of the gender divide and understand it. The impulse to shout "Not me!" is strong on both sides. And we, generally, like to assign a label to throw at someone that explains why they could hurt us so badly. So it's easy to say "all men lack empathy" or "all women are frigid," when in truth that is only your own experience with that one man or woman.
I happened to marry Methhead McSexAddict. Ok, that fucking sucks for me. I am not so angry and disillusioned that I believe that all men are meth heads and sex addicts, based on that one experience. Just as you BHs who married Selfish McUsesPeople or Vapid McFullOfHerself or Unfaithful McFucksOtherGuys should not expect that all women are like any of those women. I will most certainly look closer at the tendencies that might indicate drug use or sex addiction. Once bitten, twice shy. There's nothing wrong with that. But you know what will help me to answer those questions and make those decisions? Requiring unfailing and unfettered transparency before I hitch my wagon to someone, and running the other way if they so much as hint that they can't do that.
[This message edited by HeHadADoubleLife at 6:14 PM, December 11th (Wednesday)]
