SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I really try to be "conflict avoidant" when posting, and i dont mean this as a personal dig on anyone, but I think I can speak for most men in saying that we would do anything to make our wives happy and content. Why is it so hard to ask for a little of the same?. And why is it necessary to demean us for our sexuality while DEMANDING the acceptance of yours...past and present. That reads as reverse slut shaming to me.

I honestly do not understand 90% of this thread. And luckily for me, neither does my wife.

I didn't read it that way, but I guess it's all about what your experiences have been. Silver, that was a great example, and I cried reading it. I am so sorry that's what you had to deal with. I hoped I was going to read that eventually you bit him really hard. I recommend it if you ever find yourself in that situation again.

For me, I am cognizant that in a long term marriage I am the sole provider for my husbands fantasies and he is mine. You only live once. There is very little that I haven't offered or done in that regard for my H, and enthusiastically.

But, there are certain things that are less enjoyable to me - some pretty damned uncomfortable. For example, I have never denied my H anal, but at the same time I am lucky that's not a huge thing for him. If he was someone who wanted that regularly, we would find ourselves to be very sexually incompatible because it's terribly inconvenient for me. Luckily, he much prefers PIV, and is content to know if he wants to do the other, I will do it. I have even occasionally initiated it.

Now that we are older, if I ever had another partner, I really don't think I would offer it up. I would not be alarmed if that is something he loves and can't live with out, that just means we are going to be incompatible and probably shouldn't get married or plan to have a long term relationship. I feel like hey, we are well past middle age here and if you haven't experienced anal, keep looking. I am a very sexual being and believe totally that our sex life is worth as much effort as everything else. So, if the suitor could look past anal, there would be plenty there to make up with it.

Saying that it's okay to cease certain acts that are just not fun for you moving forward is not the same thing as saying that you are not willing to be thrilling for your husband. That's why I don't read it that way.

I will give you another example. My first husband wouldn't provide oral. At 20 years old, we got married he was my first and only. This issue got very heavy very quickly for me because I wanted to experience it. And, he did it a couple times and that made it even worse, because I liked it. When I got married the second go round, I knew I was marrying someone who was more than willing to do it, in fact I sometimes think he likes giving it more than I like getting it if that's even possible. So, even as a woman I do understand how important sexual compatibility is. However, if he had been sexually abused or something like that and it was a trauma for him? I think I could live with it. My first husband just was really vanilla to the hilt in most ways and that was the difference for me. He rarely wanted to even have sex. He wasn't giving me his best effort, the way we viewed sex was different. I could accept a man not give oral, but the reasons would matter and he would need to be in the spirit of thinking "Well, let's spend a whole lot of time thinking up things you might like better". Because sex is important, and it becomes so much more important when it's not there.

ETA - I also don't think I have ever put what I will or won't do based on how attracted I was or how much I loved someone. I enjoy what I enjoy, why would I deprive myself of those things to provide a reward/non-reward system - it custs off your nose despite your face?

[This message edited by hikingout at 8:58 AM, December 9th (Monday)]

I think most men can be quite accepting of a lot of things if we are just given the truth. Problems tend to start when things stop adding up. When one thing isn't like the other.

Of all of the things in my wife's sexual past, there was one thing that I learned that brought me to the razors edge close of ending things just a couple of months before our wedding...

Her ex husband was physically, emotionally, financially, sexually abusive. A drug addict, in and out of prison. Too many affairs to count, and even flaunted them right in her face. You know the type. And she kept going to farther extremes to try and keep him.

Anyway, he actually left her because he just couldn't take her shit anymore, and in my wifes rage, she seduced and banged his 18 year old son, her step son who had lived with them for six years. Part of that encounter included oral and anal. She initiated that because it had been a point of contention with her ex, that only doing those things with him a couple of times a week wasn't enough, that it was not anything she ever wanted to do, so in her mind, she was sticking it to her ex.

I thought I understood the mindset of abuse and how messed up my wife was at the time because of her relationship with her ex. I accepted it. In fairness also, oral was never off the table, and I was never interested in anal, and the one time we have done it was at her absolute insistence. That said, I had largely redirected her attempts at oral to other things because I had been led to believe that it had been borderline traumatic for her, to the point of her weaponizing it, and didn't want to accept what had essentially been presented as obligation.

Fast forward a year or so after learning about that, my now wife and I had been together for two years, and six years since her ex divorced her, I overheard my wife talking to a friend about sex with her ex, and thought I heard a timeframe mentioned, so I asked my now wife about it. She was bothered by me asking about the timeframe, offended actually that I would ask when the last time they had sex was. She said her gut reaction was to tell me none of my business, but she chose to answer anyway, in fairly graphic detail to stick it to me for even asking. Ok, fair enough, but...

She had continued to regularly sleep with her ex for the entire four years between them separating, right up to a few weeks before we got together. Those encounters included oral and anal.

To me, that was a huge one of these things is not like the other. Things presented as being done under duress, were actively sought from the abuser when there was no longer duress. That gulf between how my wife and I view sex was just mind bending to me.

It took me a while to actually unpack what was going on. She is able to disassociate sex from the relationship and from the person. That sex is not a barometer for the relationship, and that sex is essentially no reflection of the partner. That specific acts have no relation to level of attraction, love, being into a partner.

What this all told me was that I think there is a very reasonable expectation of the full buffet of an engaging sex life, and that I will need to look to other things in our relationship to validate her sexual attraction and desire for me. Or just not care about validation at all.

[This message edited by straha20 at 9:25 AM, December 9th (Monday)]

Well this thread helps me learn a few new English colloquialisms.. I have never heard the term "slut shaming" before reading this thread. Doesn’t make much sense to me. Is there such a thing as "eye colour shaming"? It feels like something out of the 1960s...

There seems to be a lot of focus on specific sex acts in this thread and to read it, it seems like those acts are of capital importance and define the whole relationship between two spouses. We’re talking about Cuban missile crisis importance here.. It just trumps everything else by a wide margin.

"Hi, meet my new spouse X. (s)he does Oral. Nice. Do you guys enjoy travelling? Why do you ask? I do oral better than his/her 10 last BF/GF. I see... You guys enjoy theatre? Huh? What are you talking about. We do anal. Can we do anal in theatres? "

I like personal stories some posters have posted here. It helps shape (and change) my opinion. I believe it’s important to enter those debates with an open mind and be willing to change one’s opinion.

What about you dear SI reader? Have read anything that changed your opinion?

Here’s a personal story: on D day, learning that it was a PA, I was devastated. But, I didn’t care about the specific acts. It’s just not important to me. This was with my X WW BTW.

To give a trigger-safe silly analogy, if a policeman shows up at my door and announce my pet has been shot dead, I will feel anger and sadness etc... but I won’t care if the pet has been shot in the stomach, gut or head. Dead is dead. A PA is a PA.

Dear SI readers, if your spouse were to get a debilitating disease, and cannot have PIV sex anymore, would you D? Is facial of capital importance?

In my opinion, my spouse does not owe me any sex act. She owes me respect and fidelity and I owe her the same. I won’t impose or insist on anything my spouse doesn’t want to do, why would I do that in a loving relationship?

I don’t know exactly how many partners my spouse had before me, but I have a rough idea. I don’t know the specific acts she did before and I don’t find it particularly interesting. I view sex as a very important bonding mechanism. My spouse bonded in the past. Ok. At the end of the day, my spouse chose to marry me, not the previous relationship, so I can only assume that she likes me better as an "overall package". For sex, we find a middle ground where we both enjoy it, within a framework of love and respect.

When I date and consider someone for a long term relationship, I would like to know if our values align. I will avoid people who see sex in a casual manner. It’s just me. For my point of view, it’s like people who enjoy lobsters and those who don’t. Nothing wrong with liking or not liking lobster. It’s a personal preference really.

I will also avoid people who engage in acts of demeaning others, or (what’s the opposite word in English? Let other people demean you). In my belief system, it is wrong and I won’t go there.

Reading this thread, I find myself mostly aligned with ChamomileTea opinions, except that she writes much better than me

So, I believe the sexual past of our spouses does matter - it certainly did for me. If I had access to a crystal ball back then, and saw our future

I don't think sexual past matters but relationship past does. I could've saved myself a loooot of humiliation if I had known that the last guy I'd dated hadn't had a gf in 6 years. So. Are you monogamous, have you been monogamous? When was your last relationship? How long was it? Why did it end? What about the one before that?

I think once you have the answers to that - if I'd had answers to those questions, if I'd known to ask those questions, I could've avoided years of heartbreak.

On a different note, for all the guys talking about their wives doing stuff with other men that they wouldn't do with them - if your wife enthusiastically did a bunch of stuff, but not that, would it make a difference?

Also. Every guy who is in here was betrayed by his wife. There is clearly something wrong here, and those women are not good representatives of many, if not most women. I did stuff enthusiastically with guys before my ex that I didnt do with my ex. Those relationships were unhealthy, and I got off on that

I am not a guy, but I have tostraight and gay male friends. And what I have learned from them is that male sexuality is very very simple. Female sexuality, for whatever reason, is not. It is far more complex then most guys understand. And I think that disconnect is causing confusion.

I also want to add something else. All of us in this society are given damaging views on sex. Men are supposed to want it all the time, which is fine if it is true for that man, but what about men who have lower sex drives? Damaging. For women though, as someone else wrote, we are supposed to: not want it, not like it, want it all the time but not too much, have a lot of sex but not too much, if you have too little sex you are damaged, same too much. We. Cannot. Win. And it fucks with our brains. And some really nice guys sometimes pay the price for that.

On a different note, for all the guys talking about their wives doing stuff with other men that they wouldn't do with them - if your wife enthusiastically did a bunch of stuff, but not that, would it make a difference?

I think this has been answered by some of us, multiple times...yes we would be fine with it. For myself, and I suspect. most other men, we want active, enthusiastic engagement, and chances are, if we feel as if we are getting that, getting everything she has to give to the best of her ability, then the past doesn't even cross our minds.

It has been stated multiple times on this thread that most men are actually understanding of things being off the table that were done in the past that are uncomfortable, painful, traumatic, can't physically do any more. We just want honesty. If you liked it with past lovers, just not with us, just tell us that and let us decide for ourselves. Don't give some BS lie that it was painful or traumatic, or something like that, only for us to find out later that it really is just us.

It has been stated multiple times on this thread that most men are actually understanding of things being off the table that were done in the past that are uncomfortable, painful, traumatic, can't physically do any more

I am aware. I think I wasn't clear on my question. Let's say a woman says she doesn't want to give head. Husband agrees to it, even though he loves getting it. They have a great sex life. She's into it, he's into it. Then he finds out that before him, she did give head.

She never lied, she just never said used to be into it. Would be care then?

Btw, all of us are here because we were cheated on and so this clouds perspective. Just because she did it with previous guys doesn't mean she isn't into the present guy. I used to love giving head. I have zero desire to do it now. Nothing about any guy. Just not my thing. It's the case with a lot of people

LLXC - I think that the reason it comes across this way is that the thread always takes on a lot of different directions. The men who most vocally said they had a problem with it, it's because she did it with her AP. So much gets conflated from the original post because the topic gets diverted a bunch.

It's one thing to say up front you don't do it.

It's another to say you never did it when you did.

And, it's a whole other issue if, taking your example, you say you don't like giving head any more but then your H finds out you did it a month ago for the AP. That's where a lot of the men here are coming from, even if that's not always being stated. It gets hard to believe you don't like an act then, it gets hard not to take it personally.

I don't think most men are going to say "oh, I see you had anal sex here on your resume from 1994, yet you do not now want to peform it. You must not love me". The two biggest problems that I see really is that either they lied about their past, or that they did acts with the AP they had been refusing all along.

It's kind of subtext. Just like most of the women on this thread understand that taking a sex act off the table doesn't mean they don't love you, and it doesn't mean they are not interested in pleasing you or rocking your world. It just means "hey I really don't like this, and I am tired of resenting having to do this part over here". We have a different subtext from our experiences than they do. It got so conflated at one point I thought I was talking to a martian.

I am aware. I think I wasn't clear on my question. Let's say a woman says she doesn't want to give head. Husband agrees to it, even though he loves getting it. They have a great sex life. She's into it, he's into it. Then he finds out that before him, she did give head.

That is starting to get into lie of omission territory. She knows it is something her husband would really like, so presumably they talked about it, and she took it off the table. She knows it is something she has done in the past with others. She tells him she doesn't want to. I would have to turn that one around and ask why she no longer wanted to do that? What happened to cause the change? Especially knowing it was something her husband really liked?

Sort of flipping the script here, I have a very strong aversion to toys, due to trauma from my cheating ex-wife weaponizing their use. The aversion has it's roots in how it completely depersonalizes any feeling of connection I have with the person I am with. Early on with my current wife, I took toys off the table, but didn't give a reason why other than they just weren't my thing. Huge lie of omission. She didn't question me any further at the time and accepted my answer, but I knew it was something she really liked, I knew I had the information that would have given her clarity if it were to ever come up, but I chose to withhold it. It would likely never have mattered until it came out that my ex-wife and I were a test couple for new toy product lines. Yeah, that didn't go over well with my current wife. Caused her to understandably question a whole lot of things. If I had just been open and honest from the beginning, it would have been a complete non issue. As it was, she did accept and understand the trauma I had experienced. She also made it clear that she would not have accepted my past with my ex-wife had it been something positive my ex and I shared while denying her the same. And I get her feelings.

Yes, it is everyone's right to do or not do something for what ever reason, or no reason at all, but I just can't wrap my mind around denying something my wife would really like with essentially no reason other than I just don't want to. That just does not compute.

Yes, it is everyone's right to do or not do something for what ever reason, or no reason at all, but I just can't wrap my mind around denying something my wife would really like with essentially no reason other than I just don't want to. That just does not compute.

See and here is what I think the disconnect is. I think she is saying that she doesn't like it. Are you saying there has to be a reason someone doesn't like it? I was surprised recently during a discussion with a friend of mine. I always thought she was sexually, um, free? I am not sure what I would say but I think she always sounded like she would put me to shame adventure wise.

She said she no longer likes giving head, it creeps her out. She imagines all these sperm swimming between your teeth. I laughed because I can't relate to that at all. I think though, she is has gotten more germaphobic as she has gotten older. There is no trauma, the experience is just unpleasant for her. It's not like she's saying she won't do it just to be mean or withholding.

I think for many of us, oral is just an accepted practice that is a normal Tuesday night. But, for other's it's just not. It doesn't mean that you don't love the person, it just means you don't love that act.

Yes, it is everyone's right to do or not do something for what ever reason, or no reason at all, but I just can't wrap my mind around denying something my wife would really like with essentially no reason other than I just don't want to. That just does not compute

But. You just said you originally didn't tell your wife why you weren't into sex toys, and she was fine with it.

I am not into giving head. I don't like it anymore. There is no other reason and I don't think that is a problem at all. If someone likes head that much, or anything else, then they can choose to end the relationship. I don't fault anyone for that.

She said she no longer likes giving head, it creeps her out. She imagines all these sperm swimming between your teeth. I laughed because I can't relate to that at all. I think though, she is has gotten more germaphobic as she has gotten older.

And I understand completely that as people age, tolerances change. Hell, for women, pregnancy and childbirth can completely change how tastes, textures and smells are perceived. That happens and is understandable. For me, having open and honest communication is part and parcel with an engaged and enthusiastic sex life.

But. You just said you originally didn't tell your wife why you weren't into sex toys, and she was fine with it.

But she sure as hell wasn't fine with it when she found out about my ex-wife and I. And I totally get it. The only context she had was the context I had formed for her. All she saw was I did not want to do something with her that she wanted, only to learn that it was something I did regularly over a long time frame with my NPD, cheating ex-wife. She became fine with it again after I explained my mindset during that period of time.

The only context she had was the context I had formed for her.

Fair enough.

I just can't wrap my mind around denying something my wife would really like with essentially no reason other than I just don't want to. That just does not compute.

But...what if there is no context, it IS, "I just don't want to"? It isn't that I don't love the next guy as much as I loved the guy who I blew all the time. I just...don't like it anymore. Like I said before, if someone really liked head, it probably won't work.

On another note. In regards to people whose spouses did stuff with the person they cheated with but won't do it with their spouse - it could be they are more stttracted to the other person. It might also be that the circumstances got them off. They didn't like the act particularly bbjt they sure as hell got off on sneaking around

She said she no longer likes giving head, it creeps her out. She imagines all these sperm swimming between your teeth.

And now oral will never be the same.

All I can say is, after 48 pages of this, I still shake my head and wonder why society insists on bundling sexual fidelity along with romantic relationships.

A huge percentage of divorces are about sex or money, and sexual incompatibility can evolve over time as people change and their drives or desires change. What do people do then- throw the baby out with the bathwater? If they have a satisfying marriage in all other respects, it's not an easy decision to make.

I don't approve of cheating in any way, shape, or form. But I think some of the viewpoints here on sex are beyond disturbing, personally. Of course, I'm sure many find mine to be so as well :)

As for "denying" your partner something they like sexually but you don't want to do (I don't view it in that manner any more than I would call it denying my partner a Lamborghini- they aren't entitled to either), duty sex sucks, plain and simple. There is a huge difference between sharing an act with a partner where both people are into it, and receiving an act from someone who is giving it to me out of obligation. I have absolutely zero interest in duty sex. It's simply mechanical getting off at that point and I am quite capable of taking care of that on my own. I am only interested in doing sexual acts with partners who are actively interested and engaged in what we're doing, or else where we have negotiated consensual power exchange and they're getting off on being made to do what I want.

[This message edited by PSTI at 12:51 PM, December 10th (Tuesday)]

All I can say is, after 48 pages of this, I still shake my head and wonder why society insists on bundling sexual fidelity along with romantic relationships.

I think most of us are built in such a way that we would be heartbroken sharing our spouses sexually with another. I have no moral or ethical issue with consensual non-monogamy at all. It just isn't something that I want when I'm in love with someone. I think it's a rare person who can be in love and be totally okay with sharing that person sexually. Nothing wrong with it, I have poly friends who seem quite content. It just isn't something I'm built to handle well.

All I can say is, after 48 pages of this, I still shake my head and wonder why society insists on bundling sexual fidelity along with romantic relationships.

So what...you're advocating cheating?

Did you read all of what PSTI said?

I did....but I couldn't make sense of it. But I just now read her bio....

All I can say is, after 48 pages of this, I still shake my head and wonder why society insists on bundling sexual fidelity along with romantic relationships.

So what...you're advocating cheating

I think open relationships and poyamory are great for people who can do that. I definitely can't and I am not sure how many people CAN do it. Like, emotionally if not physically.

I do think if people can do it, it's great for people who are happy and in love but are sexually incompatible,so if both people find someone on the side, and everyone is open about it, great. Everyone is happy. I just think it is hard as hell.

I also think it is really great for couples in which there is a huge discrepancy in sex drives.

I think sex and relationships are really really complicated and we just have to navigate it as ethically and openly and honestly as we can.

I studied psychology in grad school, and we studied evolutionary psychology but what's interesting is that biologists who study evolution and anthropologists have very different explanations for how men and women relate to each other sexually and romantically.

From what I've studied, before humans lived in agricultural societies, we did not do monogamy at all. Monogamy came about when we became agricultural societies and it has become the norm over time. And I think it works for most people for most of the time.

I think sexual incompatibility and jealousy makes life really complicated.

I agree with LLXC. I think anything that makes other people happy and works for them and isn't hurting anyone else then you should do that.

H and I tried swinging before we were married or even really considered ourselves monogamous. Despite the fact I am a WS, I really got to where I didn't enjoy sharing my body with people I didn't love. I really gravitated toward either being monogamous with H, or moving on to be with someone who would be monogamous. It was killing my soul. I can't envision really ever being interested in casual sex again.

20+ years later, I think the most complicated part of the A is I really do have a very hard time having feelings for more than one person at a time, it's far too complicated for me to ever consider that to be a viable lifestyle option for me. There is no judgment there whatsoever because I know this is nothing comparable to what it's like in an affair.

I think it's fascinating, and if it works for some people that's perfectly fine. I just feel that I know that moving forward I am definitely a one-partner type of woman.

I do agree - sexual compatibility can and does change, but I do think that with the proper commitment to a persons sex life, putting it as important of a focus as communication or any other aspect of the relationship - those should be waters that can be navigated. It just takes a willingness for open and honest communication, change, and a whole lot of respect.