SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What if he found out you had done these things a month ago with AP, same answer OIN?

Indidelity is always totally different.

What would I do, HO?

Admit my wife was either not into me, a different person with others, a messed up and broken woman, or all of the above, and I would file for divorce. It would be very clear to me that the mental and emotional gymnastics needed to recover from her behavior--both in and out of the marriage--would be too detrimental to my soul. And I'd leave.

Eta: there was a very long thread on this a while back. My position was the same. I'd leave. If she decided to do the work, change her ways, win me over, maybe I would come back. But I would never, ever ask, insist, beg, explain, or educate her on the sexual requirements needed for her return. That would be part of my healing emotionally. I would simply divorce. It is only if she does all of the initiating, thinking, working, learning, and growing that I could possibly find renewed faith in her. It would need to be ALL her. But honestly, most WS don't do all that. A few of the very hard workers are here, but most can't change in those deep ways. And furthermore, most BS try to do the work for the WS, the telling and showing and explaining. Nope, it's not the same. Especially on this point.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 9:46 AM, December 8th (Sunday)]

Good. I wanted to ask because people read what you or chamomile wrote and conflate the two issues. I too think they are separate. There are so many explanations of why you did something in a past relationship that you don’t enjoy and want to bring forward into a new relationship. Not sure why someone would lie about it. That’s an even different circumstance. It sounds like many of the men And woman here say they could accept having the act removed without any of these other circumstances, conceding love was more important.

And I suppose you could even discover you do like something while having an A, but then that is always going to be tainted as well.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:48 AM, December 8th (Sunday)]

T/j:

Which falls faster? A pound of lead or a pound of feathers?

Even two pounds of lead can fall at different speed, all you need is a bit of imagination

Please help me (and most men) understand something. Why is it ok to do some sexual acts under the right set of past circumstances, but a MARRIAGE is not one of those "circumstances".

Why doesn't a marriage trump all of those reasons that you said yes to another? If I am going to dedicate my life to you, take all of your (insert word here), listen to you going on and on about nothing, make your coffee every morning etc, how is that less than some beavis blowing sweet nothing's in your ear and getting everything?

I am marrying you and all of a sudden you put boundaries on ME?. Of course it is your body, but it is my body also...and my time. Do you really think we "enjoy" doing all of the things it requires to make you happy?. No we don't but we do them because "gasp" we love you more than anything.

Men are taught to always date the wife. To validate, encourage, support and always make her feel beautiful and desired. Why is all of this worth less than a 10 minute blow job?

And then he should get some flipping self-esteem to overcome his insecurities and sense of sexual competition, entitlement, and validation.

Wow. Thats a little harsh. Wanting a full sex life is all that?. What adjectives would you assign to man who refused to give oral to his wife?. That doesn't fly in our household. I am not sure if my wife would divorce me if I took that off of the table, but I 100% know she would have never married me without that sex act. And I don't see the wrong in that. She enjoys it immensely. Denying that to her makes no sense.

I really try to be "conflict avoidant" when posting, and i dont mean this as a personal dig on anyone, but I think I can speak for most men in saying that we would do anything to make our wives happy and content. Why is it so hard to ask for a little of the same?. And why is it necessary to demean us for our sexuality while DEMANDING the acceptance of yours...past and present. That reads as reverse slut shaming to me.

I honestly do not understand 90% of this thread. And luckily for me, neither does my wife.

Why would a woman give less than her best sex to her husband? I can think of three reasons off the top of my head:

1) The girl who did that was my pre-marriage, "wild" persona. I'm a soccer mom now. Soccer moms don't do that.

2) When I was unmarried all the world was possible. Someday I would meet my Prince Charming. I married you. You are not perfect! You tied me down with kids! I'm saving my best for the perfect man. You're not getting it!

3) I had to give those other men my best because they wouldn't call back and treated me poorly. I had to do all of that to keep them around. You're nice, you like me anyway, so I don't need to do those things.

NOT ALL WOMEN ARE LIKE THIS. But the psychology is not hard to understand.

Why is it so hard to accept that people's likes and desires change as they get older.

Or perhaps that they may have done certain sex acts in the past but as they get older and more confident they learn how to say no.

Why is it so hard to ask for a little of the same?. And why is it necessary to demean us for our sexuality while DEMANDING the acceptance of yours...past and present.

A lot of this reads the same way to me too.

Why is it so hard to accept that people's likes and desires change as they get older.

That goes both ways though right? As in when you get married you're good without something, as your sexual relationship grows your desires change and you want something you didn't before. Both partners have to adapt.

I think a lot of the disconnect is that for the most part men and women here are talking about two different hypothetical wives/husbands. One set has good reasons and intentions and the other set doesn't.

@Carissima

1. Why is it so hard to accept that people's likes and desires change as they get older.

2. Or perhaps that they may have done certain sex acts in the past but as they get older and more confident they learn how to say no.

Interesting, you commented earlier (erroneously) regarding your perception of my previous post. I appreciated it as it has helped me with this post (which is not gender-neutral)

Now, if I were to take your above comments (which are posted in their entirety to avoid contextual arguments)you have just provided in quote 1&2 a very logical argument for adultery and/or at least breaching the foundations of any relationship (most people do choose people with whom they perceive compatibility).

In comment #1&2 you have effectively argued that FRAUD is acceptable and/or the perspectives of the man are superseded by the change in perspective of the female.

I shall be very direct now, you are arguing for control of the marital partnership.

I have been observing duality and unrepentant hypocrisy in this thread from most of the female posters (not all there are at least two (2) who are not doing this).

This is clearly why the thread has continued for 47+pages. I'm curious if you/others are aware of what you have been arguing for, a power grab that has been the basis of the accusation du jour/semaine "shaming".

[This message edited by blahblahblahe at 2:58 PM, December 8th (Sunday)]

Sex and sexuality is a challenging topic. As women were taught to want it, not want it, not want it too much, but want it just enough, but not enough for you necessarily but for others because you will be judged by your experience, your lack of experience, your willingness to experiment and your reluctance to experiment.

As you are trying to figure out what all that means to you and what you enjoy and what is true to yourself, depending on trauma you may or may not have had you are also working on boundaries.

During this time its possible that "you" try things and decide out don't actually enjoy them, or that they don't actually make you feel good and whole. So, you DECIDE I don't want to do this again or any more.

Now, in order to make our partner feel good we're supposed to do thing with our bodies we're not comfortable with, knowing we'll feel like crap afterward because you might find out we've done it with someone in the past and feel inferior...because We've found a couple boundaries that make us feel more whole.

That sounds like a you problem...not a me problem.

Why might she not tell you about past experiences? Because she is not proud of it, because it's her past and it doesn't effect you? Because she isn't or doesn't want to be that, because she's grown, she's changed. Because if she tells you she has in the past but doesn't want to again it's possible you'll pout and wonder why you don't get it? As if its, what ever it is, the same as baking a cake.

Its also possible that she has done things in the past to make people, that she didn't realize at the time were not good or worthy of her,happy. Hoping they would stay. Realizing when they finally do leave that it wasn't worth it to end up feeling like crap. Maybe when she gets to know you she believes your different...

But it sounds like you want her boundaries strong except with you.

As far as what was done during an affair? We know they were weak and broken and would do anything to feel better. So now you are asking her to sort of heal herself, to sort of have boundaries for herself just compromise her self for your self-esteem. It seems like you would both need to work on fixing your own self esteem and then have a discussion regarding what's on the table for sexual experimentation.

Please help me (and most men) understand something. Why is it ok to do some sexual acts under the right set of past circumstances, but a MARRIAGE is not one of those "circumstances".

Why doesn't a marriage trump all of those reasons that you said yes to another?

OK, I am going to give a personal example. I am in no way speaking for everyone's situations or making excuses for others. I'm offering my own experience so that I can find out whether I'm being reasonable or not, and because there might be others who can relate.

So, before I met Mr Silver, I was involved with someone for about 10 months. He wanted only blow jobs, and I was trying to please him (because I had this idea that if I wanted to be treated well sexually, I had to earn it). He abused the privilege: deep-throating is difficult, but I was trying to learn it. Several times, I would try to pull away to catch my breath - he would either force me to continue or, in a few cases, he would shove me down, sit on my head, and continue to shove himself down my throat until I threw up, usually with me trying to push him off me. Then he would make me swallow my own vomit. This was upsetting to me.

Mr Silver also liked it when I went down on him, so of course I did that as well (again, more than he would do for me, but that's another subject). I would try my best to get him off without deep-throating, but over time he made it obvious it was his preference. He wouldn't force me down and sit on my head, but many times he would hold my head in place and thrust faster, even if I was trying to pull away to breathe. My gag reflex was all but destroyed, probably by my anxiety around the act: I would try to continue for as long as I could, and several times I threw up then, though usually I swallowed it before he knew. There were a few times when he realized I'd thrown up (when there was too much to swallow quickly), and I'd spit it out and apologize to him. I felt badly that I couldn't go for as long with him. Because he would pressure me to continue anyway even after I threw up, and because of my own feeling of owing him more than I'd given my ex, it didn't make the experience enjoyable.

If I were lucky enough to be involved with someone again, and he were patient enough to teach me how to deep-throat without throwing up or panicking, I would definitely do it. But if deep-throating upset me to the point where I felt like crying (just thinking about it right now makes me feel panicky)? In light of my past experiences? Would I owe it to him to do it anyway?

I am genuinely curious about this. If I am ever in a relationship again (probably not, but in case I am), would I be selling him short if I wanted to never do deep-throating again? I do not want to sell him short! But I would honestly pray for there to be a way I could get him off giving him a blowjob that didn't involve deep-throating.

[This message edited by silverhopes at 3:41 PM, December 8th (Sunday)]

@blahblahblahe

Can I just say your latest comments are just unbelievable to me. Are you saying that a man's desires and wants never change while they're in a relationship? People, of both sexes change over time. Are you the same person you were when you were 20? I doubt it. It's only logical that your relationships would change too.

BTW my first comment was definitely not gender specific, in fact neither was my second, although in the context of this thread I can see where it could taken as relating to women. Anyway I find your logic far-reaching but it's interesting to see how comprehension and perception lead to differing interpretations of statements.

Silverhopes, any "man" that would force a woman to deepthroat him when she is so obviously in discomfort (much less vomiting) is not a man. Your ex and your "husband" are abusive pieces of trash.

You owe deepthroating to no one. Not then not now, and not in the future. And a real man should be eager to give as well as receive if that is something his wife would like.

I am sorry you have been treated so poorly in these poor excuses for relationships you have been in.

[This message edited by ManishsDad at 3:57 PM, December 8th (Sunday)]

Why is it ok to do some sexual acts under the right set of past circumstances, but a MARRIAGE is not one of those "circumstances".

Trauma.

An act done under coercion may be so traumatic that someone will deny it to another, even if the other is a spouse.

Sex and sexuality is a challenging topic.

It is, but I honestly think we're reading tons and tons of stuff into it. Seems like a pretty simple topic, for example, when an AP strolls into a WW (or let's just use my WW from here on out) life. She suddenly understood the "rules" of sex real well, broke out all the kink/good stuff and "figured it out" with him in the matter of a few weeks.

Yes, it can be complicated. It can also be dead simple, "he/she is just not that into you". And sadly, while there are plenty of explanations, PTSD, abuse, madonna/whore, and probably 100's of others that don't come to mind, the one that I think most people, men or women, are going to jump to is the "not into you". Most likely answer? IMHO, yes, it is, but I have no basis in that except my own past experience (where girls "really into me" in other ways also had a long and expansive sexual menu when we got to that point).

It would be very clear to me that the mental and emotional gymnastics needed to recover from her behavior--both in and out of the marriage

I'm nearly ready to compete in the Olympics under mental gymnastics then. Yeah, it's a total mind f**k, and probably one of the hardest things for me to square away about my W's A. Not just the acts he got, but the frequency and vigor. Again, as I started with, she suddenly "seemed to figure out" what guys want in bed when she had "no idea" with me. Hmm... Quite the coincidence, don't you think?

And woman here say they could accept having the act removed without any of these other circumstances, conceding love was more important.

I mostly agree with this. Or, I guess I "used to agree" would probably be a better way to put it. See, my wife was "somewhat" honest about her sexual past. I knew she did one thing, in particular, in her past that was important to me with other men, and I was "OK" (not great, let's be clear, it was a VERY hard thing for me to accept) with it not being part of our marriage. It hurt me badly, but I did accept it.

Yeah, 2nd date with the AP.. She did it.

So, now, sadly, I don't think I'm that person anymore. Could I accept it again? I suppose I could, but I can't see a situation I would. It would probably be a deal breaker for me now because, right or wrong, (most likely wrong), I'd see it as "I'm just not the right guy for you to want to do that with". Because, of course, that's exactly what I was with my wife.

I am marrying you and all of a sudden you put boundaries on ME?. Of course it is your body, but it is my body also...and my time. Do you really think we "enjoy" doing all of the things it requires to make you happy?. No we don't but we do them because "gasp" we love you more than anything.

And sadly, this is the only boundary that excludes the other person from that act entirely as part of the typical marriage contract. You want to go skydiving, it's a boundary for me, you can still go. You want to learn to ballet dance, it's a boundary for me, you can still learn. You want to be tied up and have sex, well, if that's my boundary and we're married, guess what? You will NEVER get to do that again, so long as we stay married and you uphold the contract. It's the only thing like that, and it should be held to a higher standard because of it, both both sexes. I've read stories on here from women about guys who will not give them oral sex and my heart bleeds, you're giving that up for life for this man? The only way that most women can orgasm with a partner, this guy is taking that from you? That's a HUGE ask, and it better be for a goddamn good f**king reason beyond "girl bits are ewwy" especially if you just got done doing it with your last GF before you got married!? You gotta be f**king kidding me. If it were legal and some asshole was telling me this, I'd pop him square in between the eyes for being such a f**king a**hole. You're robbing her of that experience for life because.. Why?? Better be a DAMN good reason, that's all I got to say on that one.

But the psychology is not hard to understand.

No, it's not. Neither is the psychology of my group of asshole, "f**k anything that moves" guys from work hard to understand. I get it. It's just completely f**king awful. Not at all hard to understand "why", doesn't make it ONE iota better and doesn't make it any more defensible (not that I'm saying your defending it, yeah, you gave 3 "good reasons" why, they all suck).

Now, in order to make our partner feel good we're supposed to do thing with our bodies we're not comfortable with, knowing we'll feel like crap afterward because you might find out we've done it with someone in the past and feel inferior...because We've found a couple boundaries that make us feel more whole.

OK, full disclosure moment. The first times I went down on a woman I really did not like it. I could tell it made them feel good, but, as you said above, it made me feel like crap. But, as I kept doing it, seeing that people appreciated it and enjoyed it, that changed. And now, being entirely honest, if I were to D, find a new GF and she said "I'm just not comfortable with you doing that", that would be an immediate dealbreaker for me. I enjoy it that much today, because I realized the importance it has for my partners and feel good about myself making them feel good. Now, I can't say this applies for everything, but if I'd stuck with the standard of "what I feel comfortable with" in my dating and married life, I'd still be having sex missionary style with the lights off trying not to make too much noise. We are supposed to grow with our partners, NO, this doesn't mean that you have to do EVERYTHING, but, IMHO, it does mean that "benefit of doubt" is required. Is this something that just is ABSOLUTELY a no, or is it just something that I'm scared/worried/embarrassed/etc about? The first, I can respect. The 2nd, IMHO, marriage has to be enough "tip in" to get past them. And, listen, I've had this discussion many times, 100's of posts on this forum before. The vast majority of this is really a couple of things, oral sex, swallowing, anal sex, facials, BDSM and probably a few I forgot (in a roughly relatively order of how often they come up). I can't even remember a thread where someone was WAY out there, it's just the standard fare stuff in almost all cases.

We know they were weak and broken and would do anything to feel better.

Is this only for females/female sexuality during the A? Because, let me tell you, I know a whole lot of guys who are the exact opposite of "weak and broken" engaging in this behavior. They are predators and having a blast with it. And I strongly suspect there are some women that fall into that camp too, it's not "weak and broken" it's pure narcissism and entitlement.

From the original post:

"Her sexual past before you met is none of your business!!"

There has been some thread drift, but I'd like to mention just this aspect. (While still respecting the statement that we all evolve/change as we age.)

Before we met, my WW never had a single one on one boyfriend - instead she kept a stable of several going all the same time. When I came on the scene there were four guys in her life (I was unaware of this then). I discovered this during our courtship, and at my request she punted them one at a time until I was the last standing - then we married.

I didn't realize the significance of her having those sorts of relationships - and have since wondered if that led her to have numerous inappropriate relationships with men at work (I don't think these were affairs... but...), and her one long term emotional and physical affair.

So, I believe the sexual past of our spouses does matter - it certainly did for me. If I had access to a crystal ball back then, and saw our future, I would have left her in a heartbeat. Past behavior is a strong indicator of future behavior IMO.

If I were lucky enough to be involved with someone again, and he were patient enough to teach me how to deep-throat without throwing up or panicking, I would definitely do it.

I think that's what the guys here are saying they'd appreciate.

But if deep-throating upset me to the point where I felt like crying (just thinking about it right now makes me feel panicky)? In light of my past experiences? Would I owe it to him to do it anyway?

I am genuinely curious about this. If I am ever in a relationship again (probably not, but in case I am), would I be selling him short if I wanted to never do deep-throating again? I do not want to sell him short! But I would honestly pray for there to be a way I could get him off giving him a blowjob that didn't involve deep-throating.

To me, the short answer is no you don't owe it to him. Although, you might be selling him and yourself short though if he was the kind of partner in the first sentence I quoted.

[This message edited by Murkywaters at 4:47 PM, December 8th (Sunday)]

Is this only for females/female sexuality during the A? Because, let me tell you, I know a whole lot of guys who are the exact opposite of "weak and broken" engaging in this behavior. They are predators and having a blast with it. And I strongly suspect there are some women that fall into that camp too, it's not "weak and broken" it's pure narcissism and entitlement.

I completely agree, I think there are a whole lot of female cheaters who 'get off' on the illicit nature of the affair, who like the power and control they get through it. To my knowledge I've only been cheated on once, it led me here but also to other forums where the waywards were more upfront about what they liked during affair. I've read more than one thread by WW extolling the joys of sex with their AP during the affair and their despair that it's no longer available.

I suspect any disgust grows if the wayward of either sex does the work, but I believe it's more disgust that they acted 'wayward' rather than the sex itself.

You owe deepthroating to no one.

MD thank you for that, but many of men posts speak the opposite.

Also, about wives changing not being fair thoughts. Do those of you specifically bringing that up honestly feel YOU have never changed since your young adulthood? Really no? I personally know men who while dating their wives gave oral, to stop once married. One wife asked why? He said Ive always hated it. He never did oral again.

Oh, silver. (((silverhopes))) I'm so sorry you've been through all of that.

I can't believe I'm wading back into this thread, after so much time holding my breath for it to get to 50 pages and die a natural death. It's a little hard to believe that anyone is at a point where they really want to learn anything. I will admit to falling into this myself when someone posted ten comments that I found toxic and one that I agreed had merit. Then someone else who posted five comments that I think are spot on added one that I think sounds logically or morally shaky. My perception, possibly self-imposed, was that I had to choose a side and not "betray" it by conceding gray areas. So to the extent possible, I'm going to try to fight that perception. Please assume I am posting in a vacuum and not attempting to rally for either team.

This whole thread started with a question about honesty. "Does a person have the right to ask an honest question about their SO's sexual past and to expect an honest answer?" Every fight from that point has been driven by the motivations of questioner and respondent. Why does the questioner want to know? Is it a morally acceptable reason? Is there even such a thing as a morally acceptable reason? Is there such a thing as a socially toxic reason? Does the person who is asked the question have a right to assign motivations to the question without asking why the questioner wants to know? Does the respondent have morally acceptable reasons for not answering? Are there morally acceptable reasons to lie? If not, are there nevertheless understandable excuses for lying? If the person who tells the lie knows that they'll be judged for the truth, does that make it more acceptable not to answer? Or to lie? Does a person who is refused an answer have a right to make assumptions about what the answer would have been? Is it morally questionable for them to do so? If their motivations for asking are morally or socially toxic, do they still have a right to expect an answer? Who decides what is morally or socially toxic? If a person decides to refuse to answer, or to lie, should they anticipate consequences for that decision? If not, why not?

Now, my response to all this is deeply, deeply influenced by my life over the last year. It is influenced by infidelity and TT. My life since I was 18 years old has been fucked up by my and my H's inability to be completely honest with each other. He cheated and tried to tell me and chickened out and lied. I cheated and tried to tell him the full truth and chickened out and lied. He tried to believe me and rugswept and didn't heal because he didn't really believe my lies. He didn't tell me he was struggling, and when I tried to figure out what was wrong in our relationship, he lied. He finally faced his fears and asked me to come clean; I lied. Some of these lies were lies of omission. Additional problems arose from fear of just asking the questions, knowing the answer would be either devastation or lies. All told, 31 years, from age 18 to 49. Considerably more than half of our lives, and solidly all of our adult relationship.

I get it. These are all infidelity-related lies. We got together so young that we don't really have much else. My entire backstory when we met was some handjobs and one weekend of oral sex; he didn't even have that. We fully disclosed it all to each other without guilt or consequence, so maybe some would say I don't even have table stakes to enter this discussion.

But I have stakes for addressing the consequences of lack of trust. I cannot grasp why anyone in any circumstances would voluntarily enter a pre-infidelity relationship with someone they don't think they can trust with the truth. If you can't trust them to honor and respect and want you because of something you did sexually, but no longer do, that's the wrong person. If it's someone who isn't willing or able to be honest about what they once did and no longer want to do and why, that's the wrong person. I don't think it's reasonable to expect those answers on Day 1, but if you believe you'll never be able to honestly answer or get an honest answer to these sexual questions, then that's an alarm bell to me that the relationship won't get where it needs to go. For whatever reason, you suspect that you can't trust them with your true self. And my inclination would be to say that we've all had far too much time already on that merry-go-round.

The only reason my marriage is surviving is that we have made a commitment that we can trust each other with the full and unvarnished truth. I mean, it is the only reason. So I find it hard to grasp any life relationship where that is off the table. That's just me.