SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Golden, I get what you're saying.

Tweaking the concept a bit...

1. If your SO/wife/hetero life mate/etc told you "I used to do [sexual thing], but it really wasn't something I enjoyed and I would prefer not to do it", what would you say?

2. If your S/W/HLM told you the same as above and then you found out, the "I really don't enjoy it" part was complete bullshit, what would you say?

3. If your S/W/HLM said, "I have never tried [sexual thing], but would be willing to give it a try, but reserve the right to say no if it is something I don't like". Answer?

I know for me - #2 would hurt me immensely, not because of the sex, but because of the LYING. Numbers 1 & 3 are perfectly ok.

This concept of settling and sacrifice - again, I will say, that choosing to "settle" when you know the bulk of the information is ok. In that case, I wouldn't say it is so much about settling as it is about deciding if you can live within parameters that are laid out. Compromise with yourself and your partner is fine, so long as the information and communication are open. Agreeing to parameters that are laid out that your SO knows are bullshit is not ok.

(See my example - if my xwh had told me he was poly in the beginning and I chose to marry him anyways knowing that wasn't for me then that was an informed choice I made and fallout/consequence from that is ON ME. Him marrying me and lying to me for 8 years while he knew this was a thing he wanted was NOT OK).

Since DDay 2 and my separation, my ex has told me that I have a smaller penis than OM, that I was never able to sexually satisfy her, that she has never been attracted to me because of my weight, that every time we had sex it was against her will but she just gave in because I made her feel like she had to, that I performed oral poorly, that when we were in the BDSM scene, I was a terrible dom and the OM is better at it than I could ever be, that I am weak, that my C-PTSD is a sign of weakness and of me being not a real man, so on and so on.

Every time I read this I cringe. Your ex was an evil, evil woman to say these things to you. In all honesty, she is saying them because she has told herself stories to justify her shitty behavior. She is in essence blaming you so that she doesn't have to look at herself.

I think it's also hard in your situation to feel the security when your wife was your first and only, so the only woman who has ever known you sexually has basically set forth to emotionally abuse you about past performances.

The reality is Chamomile is right - that this woman should not define you. Honestly, women find all sorts of things attractive, I know lots of women who prefer men built like you. And, honestly I think most of the time women care far more about ways you treat them and the willingness you have to meet their needs than anything else. When you find the right woman, you will communicate about what you like and there is nothing more attractive or desire-driving than a man who lets you know that they are willing to learn and whatever you want is exactly what they want to do. All that other shit? Whatever. If she didn't like your oral then she was stupid for not providing feedback. I can't wait to see you move on to the "New Beginnings forum" and discover what is out there for you. I think your story about the ways she has demeaned you verbally is likely one of the sadder situations I have seen on here. Good riddance.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:56 PM, December 6th (Friday)]

It tells me that she's just not that into me sexually. I wouldn't tell her to start or it's a dealbreaker bc who wants their SO doing a sex act bc they're scared of losing you and not bc they love you?

Knowing that I didn't do it for her sexually so much so that she won't dob things with me that she did with everyone else before me would probably result in D. Why would I want to stay with someone who, while she may love me, is totally turned off by me sexually?

It's a total assumption on your part that "blow jobs = love". Can you not see that? Maybe she just doesn't like having a dick in her mouth and she knows it because she's tried it before. Maybe she's got TMJ and it's painful. Maybe she doesn't feel emotionally connected during the act. Lots of possible maybes. Why jump right into "she doesn't love me"? How does "she's turned off by blow jobs" become "she's turned off by me"?

The more rational explanation for people who once engaged in certain acts and then no longer engage in them once they've arrived within the safety and comfort of a truly loving relationship is that they no longer feel the need to HIDE who they really are. Why ignore Occam's Razor on this subject? Why go for the more extreme and less likely explanation?

So, if pulling a train is her "best", why wouldn't that be included in the marital relations? Maybe, she makes it clear before the marriage that every other month or so you can invite 3 friends and have a go of it. Or maybe, just maybe... she views pulling a train as something she wouldn't want to include in an exclusive, emotionally-bonded marital arrangement. Should that change in view before the marriage occurs not be allowable?

Well, for me, bringing others in would be a non starter, so again, it's not about the specific acts, but rather the feeling. If in her previous relationship she had put in the effort to organize the train, and to be attentive to all involved in it, I would expect to feel effort and attentiveness from her in our sex life with our boundaries.

While my wife never did the train thing, she did organize multiple threesome for her husband in an attempt to assuage the mental anguish of his numerous affairs. She also told me that she had no desire to try a threesome with me, because the thought of seeing me with another woman made her physically ill. So, while she did it in the past, and even enjoyed it, I understand the traumatic circumstances, and add in the reason she couldn't do it with me, a jealousy she had never felt over a partner before, I have no doubt I am getting her best.

Now, she also said that she would entertain it if it was really something that I felt that I had to experience. Never going to test that out, because I have negative desire to bring anyone else into our bedroom.

Golden, come on now. That is a total exaggeration. Say your wife had anal sex with previous partners but doesn’t want to do it with you (if you were into it/wanted it). Say, though, she enthusiastically gives & receives oral and PIV. Are you really going to say that that makes her “totally turned off by you sexually”?

It would tell me that when it comes to the most "taboo" of sexual acts, that she prefers it with others and the thought of doing it with me turns her off.

If pulling a train is her best I never would've married her.

I'm an overweight guy. I have a belly. I'm not, like, morbidly obese, but weight is a struggle for me, and I HAVE been 322lbs before. I am not anymore (270 with a heavy frame), but I am a big guy. I refer to myself as 'fat' jokingly. I have a lot of muscle mass... and a lot of chunk as well.

Since DDay 2 and my separation, my ex has told me that I have a smaller penis than OM, that I was never able to sexually satisfy her, that she has never been attracted to me because of my weight, that every time we had sex it was against her will but she just gave in because I made her feel like she had to, that I performed oral poorly, that when we were in the BDSM scene, I was a terrible dom and the OM is better at it than I could ever be, that I am weak, that my C-PTSD is a sign of weakness and of me being not a real man, so on and so on.

I felt emasculated. I still do from time to time. Perhaps it does have to do with insecurities. Perhaps those insecurities are the result of what my ex did.

I mean, I've seen pictures of my ex in the act with the OM and OW. OM is less muscular than me, despite being thinner. OW is WAY fatter than I am. OM's equipment is no closer to Magnum than I am (roughly comparable), and I KNOW how to identify if a woman climaxes, and I KNOW that my ex has had her fair share of orgasms at my doing. Not saying I'm some sexual guru God of the Clitoris or anything, but I knew her buttons and how to press them if she let me.

I think feelings of emasculation, like the other parts of betrayal trauma, is an understandable and natural reaction to, well, betrayal.

Your WW demeaned you... she did not define you. Only you get to define who you are. She was a cruel and insensitive individual who has no business defining anyone else's worth, let alone yours, who gave so much and received so little.

Believe it or not, you are PERFECT just exactly as you are for some lucky woman out there. And when you find her, she won't want to change a hair on your head.

So many questions....but it's my bedtime. I work nights. I'll answer later.

I get it!

For me, being a woman - I enjoy receiving oral. If I was in a committed monogamous relationship and my partner said "You know, it just really isn't my thing and I don't enjoy it," If we are compatible in other ways and that is something I am willing to compromise on, then fine. If I found out that he was going out and giving head to an AP and enjoying it and participating enthusiastically? That would HURT me to my core. And I know I would immediately go to "Is it me? Is it my body? Does he not find me attractive?". Of course that would be my first reaction!

I really fail to see how that is any different on the guys side...

It would tell me that when it comes to the most "taboo" of sexual acts, that she prefers it with others and the thought of doing it with me turns her off.

Presumably though, if she had done it grudgingly with past partners, that it cause her pain, it was only done to keep peace, not something she remotely enjoyed, that would be a different story though right?

Hellfire, I think I love you. It's about impossible to "step over the line" in these threads to the other side, occasionally people do it, but this issue (and others) just seem to lead themselves to near universal gender seperation. What you said, without edit, is exactly how I feel.

So, while it's possible that she looked like she was enjoying them in the video recording, it's probable that she wasn't truly , otherwise, she would have brought this behavior into the marriage. I find it very difficult to believe that alcohol (or even drugs) wouldn't have played a role in that kind of situation as well. And as we all know, what a person does when they're inebriated isn't necessarily an indictment on their true preferences.

This is a HUGE stretch. No, I don't have video of it, but my wife did pretty much this. Not with 3 guys at a time, but just about everything you could imagine, including the "hard nos" with the AP (some of them on the 1st date). She wasn't drunk. She wasn't forced (and to her credit, never claimed she was). And no, no drugs either.

We act like this doesn't happen and it's not an indictment on someone's feelings for someone. It happens. I did it. You may have done it. And NO, it's not ALWAYS an indictment of feelings for someone, but it's certainly a darn good indicator. If I really was attracted to a girl, I'd do more for her in bed. Fire away, call me any name you want, but, that's just how it is. And the girls that were "all over me", yeah, those were the ones that usually opened up the 1001 ways to have sex book before hopping in bed. It's a thing, at least for me it is, and I think we're being entirely disingenuous if we say "Oh, she had to be drunk/high, forced, coerced" or some other version of that. Sure, that could have been the case. She also might have just liked him better. Or found him more attractive so the menu opened up. Or she just gave no f**ks about what he thought of her (most likely answer in my case) and let him go to town.

Chances are, if she chooses to marry, she's satisfied with what she's getting.

That's not implied, at all, by marriage. In my case, I wasn't "satisfied" sexually, I was making a compromise. My wife was an amazing woman in many ways, but our sex life wasn't great at all. Tons of men/women make this sacrifice every day. He's a good dad, but lousy in bed. She's a great mom, but has no sex drive at all. That's a reasonable compromise, right up until you realize that the "no sex drive at all" needs to be altered to "no sex drive for YOU at all" as her past history of gangbangs and sex 4X a night with random guys comes into focus. Then it's NOT AT ALL the same compromise.

Why? Let's say, you found out that she used to do oral in her last relationship. How does that change what was acceptable to you when you entered into marriage together?

Because he would be giving up something important to him under false pretenses. Now, if she came out and said "Yes, I did it with lots of guys before, but no, I will not do it with you" well.. I applaud her honesty, but, we all know, that's not gonna go over well with most guys (which is why, many pages ago, a poster said "just lie" was basically the answer to this issue, which, incidentally, is exactly what my W did). And then, of course, turned around and did oral for the AP every time they were together, well... Yeah, let me tell you, first hand, that sh(t absolutely f**ks someone up. Which is why, if I were to D and date again, I would be uncompromising on this issue, it'll be the "good stuff" or I'm out. And no, that's not fair, and I don't need it pointed out to me, but I'm making a promise to myself that I will never be in the position of having to ask another guy "What's it like to do X with my wife" ever again.

It's a total assumption on your part that "blow jobs = love". Can you not see that?

Everything we value as "love" is an assumption. Diamonds = love. Marriage = love. Anal sex = love. And yes, there's validity to all of them, and all of them are completely wrong at the same time. I'm getting that the OP, like me, has physical touch as a love language. And with that language, you get affection and love physically, the more intimate and "reserved" that act is, the more valued it is (speaking for me personally). And, as I said earlier, we all know this, it plays out in real life all the time. Kind of like a guy, hold his hand, like him, kiss him, really like him, sleep with him, think he's amazing, swallow for him. And I (trying not to generalize) did exactly the same mental calculus, just with different things, if I really liked you, I'd take you on a date, loved you, I'd meet you parents. And sexually, the same scale existed, yes, even for me. The thing is, this scale has aberrations, that one girl I really didn't like who's parents I met, why did I do that?! But, at the same time, it's a decent relative indicator of commitment and "love" for the other person. It's also about exclusivity. If we build a list, how many guys have you:

Held hands with

Kissed on the cheek

Kissed on the lips

BJ

Sex

Swallowed

BDSM

Anal sex

I have a feeling that for most people, that list would run in roughly descending order. 100, 25, 10, 7, 5, 2, 2. Something like that, which, of course, is why the things towards the bottom of the list are often desired, they are exclusive and indicate a different level of commitment and love than those at the top of the list.

Why ignore Occam's Razor on this subject?

Occams razor applies here, but it doesn't say "She was hiding before and now doesn't do that", it says "She doesn't like to do it with me" or, taking it further, "She doesn't like me as much". The scale above, why can I go from holding hands to kissing? Sure, could be she's totally mad about me, but just hates kissing. Could be. But Occam's razor would say "she's not into you". Because, at least in my experience, when a girl didn't want to go "further" with me, it was almost always an indicator of "not into me" vs her hiding who she really was.

I really fail to see how that is any different on the guys side...

It's not Ellie, trust me, you just described my life. And it hurts to the core, just like you predicted it would.

For me, being a woman - I enjoy receiving oral. If was in a committed monogamous relationship and my partner said "You know, it just really isn't my thing and I don't enjoy it," If we are compatible in other ways and that is something I am willing to compromise on, then fine. If I found out that he was going out and giving head to an AP and enjoying it and participating enthusiastically? That would HURT me to my core. And I know I would immediately go to "Is it me? Is it my body? Does he not find me attractive?". Of course that would be my first reaction!

I really fail to see how that is any different on the guys side...

What you're describing is catching a mate in a lie, if he actually does "enjoy and participate enthusiastically". That's not always the case with cheaters. Sometimes they do things which feed the ego but are truly NOT a preference. It's an illicit exchange, a lie, and while their participation and enjoyment might appear to be enthusiasm for the act, it's actually enthusiasm for the praise and/or notoriety they receive.

But let's assume that a given act is more pleasurable with an ex than it is with the current spouse. How does that define YOUR value? I knew one woman who used to love giving blow jobs to an ex-boyfriend, much more than she enjoyed blowing her own husband. Turns out, the ex's penis was so small she could get the whole thing in her mouth at once and THAT was part of the turn-on for her. Her husband was much better endowed and their sessions often resulted in jaw pain afterward. Now, I ask you... should her current husband feel inadequate, emasculated, or unloved?

Having been betrayed, I truly do understand how hard we can be on ourselves. But why can't we recognize that as the problem, not as something we should cling to as truth? There's nothing sexually inadequate about me, regardless of what my inner critic would have me believe. That's my pain talking, not my truth.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 3:41 PM, December 6th (Friday)]

RIO, I get what you’re saying. But as I said to GoldenR, if she participates in other sex acts enthusiastically and gets off on them, it’s not all that likely that she’s just not into you.

But let's assume that a given act is more pleasurable with an ex than it is with the current spouse. How does that define YOUR value? I knew one woman who used to love giving blow jobs to an ex-boyfriend, much more than she enjoyed blowing her own husband. Turns out, the ex's penis was so small she could get the whole thing in her mouth at once and THAT was part of the turn-on for her. Her husband was much better endowed and their sessions often resulted in jaw pain afterward. Now, I ask you... should her current husband feel inadequate, emasculated, or unloved?

What I have been trying to get the answer to for years.

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

Only six more pages to go before this thread gets locked, yeah?

Since DDay 2 and my separation, my ex has told me that I have a smaller penis than OM, that I was never able to sexually satisfy her, that she has never been attracted to me because of my weight, that every time we had sex it was against her will but she just gave in because I made her feel like she had to, that I performed oral poorly, that when we were in the BDSM scene, I was a terrible dom and the OM is better at it than I could ever be, that I am weak, that my C-PTSD is a sign of weakness and of me being not a real man, so on and so on.

Every time I read this I cringe. Your ex was an evil, evil woman to say these things to you. In all honesty, she is saying them because she has told herself stories to justify her shitty behavior. She is in essence blaming you so that she doesn't have to look at herself.

Hiking beat me to it, so ditto what she said. Incarnate, while reading your quote above I didn't believe for a second that you were inadequate in any way. I doubt your wife is a reliable narrator of much of anything. She probably wasn't in touch with her own sexuality when the two of you got together. FTB. Life is hard enough without that level of mean and crazy in it.

One thing I don't believe has been mentioned here is discretion.

There are many threads about triggering. Triggering requires stimulus. Filming sexual encounters with strangers is the ultimate stimulus. These aren't mind movies. These are actual movies.

Filming casual sexual encounters shows an alarming lack of discretion. If you absolutely have to do that sort of thing, maybe do it far away from where you currently reside and with people your current partner doesn't know. More things that didn't happen in the original story here.

I really don't want to watch a movie of any partner having sex with someone else. No matter how long ago, or circumstance. It's a turnoff unless that is your sort of kink.

Even if you were widowed, if you want a new relationship, you need to make space for that. You need to get rid of your partner's things, their clothes. Put the pictures away in a private spot so they don't make your current partner feel second best. Maybe change up your own outfits as well. You can mourn your partner, but if you want a living relationship, someone new, they deserve your full attention.

Virtually everyone has prior partners in my age group, but a key to making the new relationship work is making ANY of your partners feel as though they are the best!

When you make these arguments ie, what if you're just to big and it hurts her mouth, TMJ, or whatever. Do really think the guy posters on here are having, imagine having, or are discussing a problem like that? Like maybe they just forgot to ask their wife why. Do you think the guys you're posting to or conversing with are just so dumb that they just ignore obvious good reasons like that.

Actually, murkywaters, what I generally see in that circumstance is those posters either saying that sort of reason is a bullshit lie or saying whatever the reason is doesn’t matter, she still gave such-and-so XYZ or liked it better.

Do you think the guys you're posting to or conversing with are just so dumb that they just ignore obvious good reasons like that.

Come on now, you guys know me, of course I asked why not certain things. A combination of answers was given:

1) I just don't do that

2) I've never done that and have no interest in it

3) I think that will hurt

I didn't get any "good reasons", I just left it alone at this. Turns out, unsurprisingly, all those answers were lies. I do do it, I'm interested if it's an affair, and maybe it will hurt, but if I like the guy enough, I do it.