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HCSDI,

At this point it's very hard to give her anything close to the benefit of the doubt.

She has been informed you need effort. She has been handed the manual my Linda MacDonald. She continues to choose to not put in effort, or understand what she needs to do to becomes a "rebuilder".

It's almost like she is intentionally displaying poor behaviors to let you know she isn't interested in putting in the effort.

You're having problems seeing (or acknowledging) what's directly in front of you. She doesn't value you or the relationship enough to do the things you want her to. You want her to so badly, she can complete 5% of what's needed and you'll be happy.

The sooner you judge by actions and respond in kind the better.

Use this time away from her to explore S/D. See a lawyer if you haven't already. Get an idea of what it would look like. Re-connect with your kids. I wouldn't be surprised if her absence gives you a feeling of calm and peace that you have not hard dealing with the push-and-pull dynamic she has had you in.

Of course. You are reiterating what we are saying to you.

The issue is that you are not taking the advice we are Trying to give you on how to proceed when you get the types of responses that you are receiving.

You can’t seem to bring yourself to take the actions you need to do when you are faced with an unremorseful and uncooperative and overall uncaring WW.

We are glad to help. But we cannot do it for you.

To be clear, with the responses you are getting I would simply be saying to her “After having an affair I would be focused on my partner and not a life away from him. You clearly don’t care about that but definitely care about your career and own happiness. I wish you well with that. While you are away I’ll be taking the steps necessary to legally end this relationship which your choices destroyed. I care about you but no longer care to share a life with someone who clearly doesn’t care about me. I wish you well. “

This appears to be the most simple, straight forward way to get yourself out of infidelity with this particular WW.

It gives you the opportunity to exhibit you are serious, gives her something to chew on while she's away, and gives you a 5 week head start to get yourself properly positioned for the upcoming D.

As they say, "it may not be easy, but it is simple" ... you just have to DO IT!!!

Take a tip from Ned Stark and don’t telegraph your moves. If you are going to see a lawyer to discuss your legal options and file, then just do it. She will find out when she sees the papers. The worst thing you could do is threaten divorce and then have your bluff called.

And please stop telling your wife what she should be doing or what you want her to do. You will gain nothing by begging or arguing with her except debasing yourself.

You have 5 weeks to yourself. Make the most of it.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:47 PM, August 3rd (Tuesday)]

Use this time away from her to explore S/D. See a lawyer if you haven't already. Get an idea of what it would look like. Re-connect with your kids. I wouldn't be surprised if her absence gives you a feeling of calm and peace that you have not hard dealing with the push-and-pull dynamic she has had you in.

^^^^^This^^^^^^

If she does not put in any effort, the chances of another affair are really high. You deserve better than what she is giving you. Read a little about co-dependence. It is not your friend....and neither is your WW.

For whatever reason, you don't seem to be able to communicate effectively with her face to face.

I get it. Especially when there's powerful emotions on both sides.

Therefore, consider listing your thoughts - giving her time to reply - and set up a time to discuss.

Sounds like you two are talking but not communicating.

One day at a time.

HCSDI,
How are you doing? I believe she is away to training by now. Are you stable and are you having any panic attacks or mind movies?
Stay in touch here. We want to be here for you.
One foot in front of the other.
CO

Thank you for asking. She flies out this weekend for 5 weeks.

I'm doing quite well, I don't really have mind movies or panic attacks, and really I'm more hurt by the 10 months of her uncooperative indifference, and as I indicated before the painful comparison between her boundless ambition and energy to pursue a career, contrasted with her passive inaction to make amends and heal the marriage. It's more of a slow burn, the marriage dying a death-by-a-thousand-papercuts.

I've been very "meh" the past few weeks, and I've thrown out a couple comments that while she is gone I'll be spending some money on a motorcycle and that I'm also looking to hire a men's fashion consultant, hair, clothing, makeover / new look for me (I've been rocking the same hair forever, the same glasses for like 3 years, and milking the same 3 sportcoats, 6 shirts and 6 pants and 2 shoes for about 7 years). She seemed a little threatened but at the same time intrigued but didn't ask me any details.

So about a week ago I broke my grey-rock when she was talking about when she's travelling I can visit her here and join her there, and I said I'm not making any plans like that, I am not on board with any of this, this is very much a pivotal moment and we might not make it. If it were me, I would not leave a marriage in this state and go off travelling.

It started a fairly good discussion I'm surprised she engaged. Usually me saying something like that would send her away for a couple weeks of stonewall.

We covered quite a bit of ground so I'll paraphrase the discussion:

WW: "I don't really want to go back to this job, but it's my best chance at making some money, and I only did it because of when you said you were going to spend all the money and divorce me with nothing." (Yes, I did threaten that early after D-Day, the thought of her taking half the money and running off with some guy was a lot to take in.)
Me: "I know what I said, I didn't mean it, I'm sorry I said it."
WW: "Well I can't just quit now after going through all this and getting hired."
Me: "Well if it were me, I would not leave a marriage in this state."
WW: "You think I'm going to cheat again?"
Me: "Not actively, but I am not going to be 3rd priority in your life, and I'm no longer going to watch you pour hour after hour of effort into your job, and do nothing to heal the marriage."
WW: "So you've given up?"
Me: "Completely. I don't see a path forward. I cannot do this by myself"
WW: "You just want me to grovel. You want me to always be unhappy."
Me: "I don't believe I've ever said that. I need to feel important. I need to see an effort"
WW: "So you don't see any effort on my part?"
Me: "No, not really. I recognize you being nicer and taking care of the house and things for me. But that doesn't make amends for the adultery"
WW: "You're missing the whole relationship aspect of things. I can't be what you need when we're not close, and I can't get close when you push me away"
Me: "And when you stop trying... this is why the default response to adultery is divorce. It is very, very hard."
WW: "Well if you would get closer to me..."
Me: "I'm unable to get close to you when my needs are ignored. I told you that I needed a comfort break at least 3 times a week. It has been 13 days since you last did one. It is 30 seconds of your time. It costs you nothing. What should I think when you don't spend 30 seconds 3 times a week? Wouldn't you give up?"
WW: "Well I don't always think about it"
Me: "Well I do. It's been 10 months of me thinking about it, alone. This is why I say it is 100% on you to come to the table and fix this marriage"
WW: "Well I'm not going to cheat while I'm away. I want to fix things but I don't know what it is going to be like and I don't want to promise anything I can't deliver"
Me: "I understand that, but if you wanted to fix things, I think you would find a way"
WW: "Well what do you want?"
Me: "I'll have to think more, but first, take your phone and edit my name to put an emoji or a punctuation to remind you each time you see it that you have a husband back at home who has been without for 10 months. That he's not happy with things. That he is not at all on board with this situation."
Me: "Then, at least three times a week, I want the reassurance I never got for 10 months, I want to at least hear the words "I'm sorry" and "It won't happen again." Better if you can be more heartfelt and caring, but at the very least I want to hear that."
Me: "Also, at least once a week I want you to acknowledge that this is difficult for me. Something like you are aware of the situation we're in, that you being gone and spending all the time is hard for me to watch, you appreciate my efforts, and you'll keep working to fix it."
Me: "I'll also point out these are not demands. You are free to not do them."
WW: "For how long do you need this?"
Me: "I'll let you know"

She was, for the most part, not defensive and seemed receptive to hearing it. Since that talk she has seduced me sexually, been closer, and provided comfort breaks every day.

So we'll see how these 5 weeks go. She'll be coming home a couple times for the weekend too. For the most part I feel fine, and the family is otherwise doing fine too.

"Detain and Torture"

That's still where you are.

She was, for the most part, not defensive and seemed receptive to hearing it. Since that talk she has seduced me sexually, been closer, and provided comfort breaks every day

.You're still just teaching her how to calibrate the minimum work necessary to keep you on the hook. If she really wanted the M to survive she would work on it long enough to figure it out without guidance from you. Please take these five weeks working on you and what you want and need from a partner. So far the words you wrote haven't described her as someone that is willing or even capable of being that partner.

Geez, I mean still with the “comfort breaks” thing? What is it you’re hoping to accomplish with such a cold fish? Cut the Gordian’s knot, cut her loose and let her go be a middle-aged career woman who shattered a long-term marriage and now has only a distant relationship with her daughter. Allow her to wallow in this, comfort breaks be damned. Maybe she will be able to soothe her emptiness by being a sex toy for some other vacuous bum at a beach condo on occasion.

In some parts of the English-speaking world, the phrase "comfort break" is a euphemism for going to the toilet.

In the context in which you’re using it, I suppose the meaning is the same… only instead of expelling excrement, you’re flushing away your dignity and the broke pieces of your heart into the figurative sewer that is your unfaithful, remorseless wife.

I'm....just no words and shaking my head.

Good luck OP on whatever you are seeking but a fulfilling marriage with your WW isn't one of them in my view.

I understand where you are at and can relate. As I read your description of the conversation, my mind simplifies it into what I too have experienced.

"Oh, he's still in the stage of believing (hoping) that explaining more will change her."

I hope it works, I really do. In my experience, explaining to a WS, one who is actually making an effort, does help--it moves the needle a little bit--but it does not change who they are. They are not the type of people who naturally empathize. Their needs are met by taking more, not by giving to get. Takers take because they have less empathy. Naturally.

The explaining stage is very common with marital fixers who don't want to give up. They would rather have one more conversation, give it one more try, give the benefit of the doubt a little longer. (Raising hand over here!) In my experience, it's not effective. It's about believing we can control the outcome. Believing life is won by trying harder. Struggling to accept defeat. So we explain. Again. And hope.

My hope for you is that this works, but even if she shows a little consistency, you'll still be wondering if it's coming from the heart.

[This message edited by OwningItNow at 11:17 PM, August 12th (Thursday)]

This is not a real conversation. And by that I don't mean that you didn't have it. I mean that nothing real was discussed. Just superficial, shallow fluff that accomplishes nothing.

I'll say this. Through my own experience plus what I've seen from other WS's here, unfortunately and unfairly, the BS many times has to do a lot of the heavy lifting. And that includes explaining their needs to the WS. So the idea of a WS asking "what can I do?" and the BS telling them is understandable. That is not what's happening here. There is no effort from your WW. There is zero empathy, apparently zero comprehension of what's she's done, no give and take. She's not asking what can I do to help you? How can I help you heal? It's "Well, what do you want?" She should be trying to move heaven and earth to save your M and help you in any way and instead you're asking her to change the emoji on her phone? You're dictating how many times per week you need to hear her say I'm sorry? How about, I need to know how you feel about cheating on me and see remorse from you. Period (and even that is too much). Then it's on her to figure out and understand what to say, when to say it, and how often to say it.

Her response to your request for the absolute bare minimum, "For how long do you need this?" is just mind-blowing to me.

"For how long do you need this?"

Yeah, that would have been it for me.

HCSDI by now you would have noticed that no one here believes your wife is remorseful. Surely you also know that by now.

I only did it because of when you said you were going to spend all the money and divorce me with nothing

It is till all about her. She is planning for her life without you and not with you.

You just want me to grovel. You want me to always be unhappy

Me me me...that's the tune that she is singing.

Me: "I know what I said, I didn't mean it, I'm sorry I said it."

Stop apologising. By infidelity standards she did a cold blooded heartless act of disloyalty and she expects you to forget.
Have you asked her to do IC? Do all your children know? Family?
She hasn't felt any shame or consequences I think.

I think its quite obvious this was an exit affair.

She's giving you crumbs,until she leaves, to make the environment at home tolerable for her.

I see no remorse. No empathy. And absolutely no love coming from her.