SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I believe nothing will change, and she will still refuse to do any work toward R.

If so, you should proceed with your attorney as such, as to not delay the D. Nothing stops you from filing regardless.

I understand your desire to keep things amicable, and if by having a discernment meeting, you are placating your WW, that is fine. However, don't let her delay things. Take ownership of the situation. Ask your attorney (or prepare something yourself) to put forward a reasonable settlement and present it to her. Let her know you are proceeding with the D, as she has shown zero effort to do the work.

"I don't want to divorce."

Your response "I am filing for D". Just as you couldn't stop her from having an A, she can't stop you from proceeding. This doesn't mean you have to become antagonistic.

She doesn't want D for HER reasons, not yours. She is again showing you that she is a selfish person. It is not for YOUR benefit that she wants to stay together.

So tell her, schedule discernment or mediation this week or she should get a lawyer. You can tell her mediation is cheaper for both of you, but you are not sitting around a waiting for it.

HCSDI Don't tell, just do. If she doesn't have it on the books by next week, file and have her served. Mediation will still be an available option, but you'll be one step closer to getting out of infidelity. Remember that peace when you told her you were going to D. Letting her drag you back in will put you right back into limbo and turmoil.
Personally I think allowing her even a glimmer of hope of R is a mistake. She has shown herself to not be a candidate to R with repeated actions and inactions over the last 10 months. What are you going to do if she quits or offers to quit her job? That will not make her suddenly a candidate for R but will likely keep you in infidelity longer. Plus her not having that job will hurt you in D. Especially when she states that she gave it up for you. Keep walking your path out of infidelity.

During the call, did your wife say she loves you; did she break down cry or sound sad; or provide specific reasons why she wants to be married to you vs just being married?

Also, did she ever mention that she's ashamed of acting inappropriately and crossing boundaries (including adultery) while on vacation with her daughter? How did your wife rebuild her daughter's image of her mother (or did she just blame it on you)?

Does she still believe there's a way for her to stay married without giving you what you need (per the list)?

You've absorbed a tremendous amount of pain (as well as abuse) over the last 10 months - but finally reached a place where you can rationally look at your marriage/your wife.

However, don't assume that you can't be pulled back in.

Looking back over 10 months. IMO the risk is that her strategy will months from now ultimately be to primarily bomb you with attention/sex when she's home(until you get over it) - rather than take 100% responsibility for her adultery, including her taking the difficult/uncomfortable steps to make herself a safe as well as supportive life partner.

IMO, among other things (e.g., losing a comfortable family life), she's reacting to you being decisive and intolerant of her abusive behavior. Whether you want to R or D you should continue showing this strength. Plus you need to continue to take control.

In view of her long term self centered (and continuing victim) focus I strongly suggest that you err on the side of protecting yourself.

Therefore, I recommend that you continue to distance yourself and continue to actively exit the marriage. Have her served immediately. You can later agree to a mediator (or postpone the D proceedings) as circumstances warrant.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 4:03 PM, Tuesday, September 7th]

It sounds to me like she would like to maintain the status quo. It'd be cool if she had a wake-up call, but she doesn't seem to be showing you that she has.

Is she on the spectrum? Has she always been aloof, or is this something new?

So far, she has only responded to life changing consequences.I.e. daughter leaving and now concrete steps towards divorce.

Problem being, you will eventually run out of these ultimatums.

She needs to show very quickly by her actions that she is willing to do the work needed, or else time to move on.

Go in prepared to divorce unless she proves otherwise.

I believe nothing will change, and she will still refuse to do any work toward R. I have zero expectations that she will respond any differently.

then what's the point of even suggesting that if you didn't have any expectations?

It sounds to me like she would like to maintain the status quo. It'd be cool if she had a wake-up call, but she doesn't seem to be showing you that she has.

IMO, OP wants status quo as much as his WW.

OP - what is that you are seeking from this community? honest advise or cheerleaders?

She is trying to buy time to figure out how to get her control of the situation back. You have ZERO reason to believe otherwise. Continue moving forward with your lawyer. There is no mediation when one party will not cooperate. If that changes, you can try mediation but with how she treats you, mediation sounds like a terrible idea.

Again, she is very good at manipulating you. This is what she is doing now also. Everything is still all talk, just as it has been the entire time you have been posting. She wants to be in control, and she is fine with keeping that control at your expense. That is very clear.

As you said, you should have zero expectations and move forward with your plan. Only time will allow you to judge her actions and so far, she has done exactly nothing to help you.

[This message edited by clouds777 at 8:39 PM, Tuesday, September 7th]

WW is gone for 3 weeks.

BluerthanBlue Just because I'm a stickler for details, I'm not an empty nester. I still have a 17 DS and a 14 DD at home.

I probably mentioned this already, but her and I are still talking, it feels fine. Not lovey dovey, no ILYs or anything, mostly about the kids.

I have an attorney to work with, I don't believe she does, and I suggested to her before she left that we use a mediator, because I really want to stress the amicable outcome, and preserve the parenting relationship. I think that is very important.

One of the mediators I contacted will only do a consultation if we're both present on zoom, and asked me to forward an email to WW and ask her to respond that she's willing to do that, and then we'll get a consultation scheduled. I forward the message. WW doesn't respond.

WW calls me, clearly upset, and says "I don't want to divorce."
Me:"I don't see any other option"
WW:"What if there was? What if there was another option?"
Me:"I don't even know what to say to that. I don't know what it would look like. I don't know what, after 10 months, would be different."
WW:"Well would you be willing to talk?"
Me:"Not just you and I, no. Things are too far gone and I'm not willing to do it. If you want to engage a discernment session with a counselor, I will attend."
WW:"What is a discernment session?"
Me:"It is where you meet with someone and they work with you to lay out a plan that helps you decide if you want to do the work to reconcile, or if divorce is a better option. There is no therapy and they don't try to fix things, rather they facilitate a discussion to help people decide on next steps."
WW:"Ok, I'll get something set up."

So I don't know, I figured by sharing this everyone is going to palm slap and write back "wtf HCSDI! Don't engage!!"

I'm quite surprised she wants to talk, and I am willing to do discernment. I believe nothing will change, and she will still refuse to do any work toward R. I have zero expectations that she will respond any differently.

Here's my 0.02 HCSDI. We often say you must be willing to lose the M to save it. You are finally in a place where you can honestly say that you are willing to lose the M. Your WW is still *not quite there* because you are holding her hand on what to do still.

I had a very similar conversation with my wife after I asked for divorce. The big difference was I told my wife if she didn't want to D she had to lay out the path to R, to repairing trust, and to lead the efforts needed along that path. Basically it was on her to convince me she could meet my needs.

I don't want to help you hit the hopium pipe. But here is a link to the thread detailing my experience on the matter:

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/649198/marriage-without-reconciliation/?ap=261

I want both honest advice as well as cheerleading. This is gut-wrenching for me. I sound very negative I suppose because I'm very hurt.

One of the things I said to WW that I don't want to talk about things alone, without a moderator or counselor, because I feel like we're talking two different languages. Like I'm speaking english but she doesn't hear or understand me. Like I'm in a foreign country and violating every social etiquette and deeply offending her every time we talk. Our communication has gotten that bad, and I feel like I'm the only one that wants to fix it.

I would love to save the marriage. I would love to R. But I can't have a discussion about anything that relates to R, or my needs for R, or really anything about the marriage. It degrades and she stonewalls. Like was said above, rinse, repeat.

My IC told me some things I didn't agree with but I can accept that, and we briefly explored if I was willing to "yield to win" to which I said I'm unable to do any longer. I'm having a really difficult time detaching and just having fun on my own, at this point I choose to just tear the band-aid off and let nature take its course.

One step at a time. I told WW I love her and I still care about her. She said the same.

I suppose I could say that I'm encouraged that she wanted to talk, and hopeful she will hear me this time, or maybe a different counselor might give us a plan back to sanity. But my self-preservation kicks in and doesn't want to consider those possibilities because the constant rejection is so painful.

So it comes out as negative.

One of the things I said to WW that I don't want to talk about things alone, without a moderator or counselor, because I feel like we're talking two different languages. Like I'm speaking english but she doesn't hear or understand me. Like I'm in a foreign country and violating every social etiquette and deeply offending her every time we talk. Our communication has gotten that bad, and I feel like I'm the only one that wants to fix it.

She doesn't WANT to understand you hcsdi - she has shown you that over and over and over again. In order to really truly "get it" she would have to admit to how horrid she has been to you, and she is not going to do that I don't think.

In any case, I think it's probably a really good idea to not have discussions without an objective third-party present at this point.

I would love to save the marriage. I would love to R. But I can't have a discussion about anything that relates to R, or my needs for R, or really anything about the marriage. It degrades and she stonewalls. Like was said above, rinse, repeat.

You know how when you go to negotiate a new car, it's really important to not show the salesperson how bad you actually want that car? Because the sales guy needs to know that if he doesn't come to you with the terms YOU want, then you will get up and leave and take your business elsewhere.

Same exact principle applies here - as long as your ww knows how badly you want R and to save the marriage, she has ZERO impetus to do anything other than what she has been doing. Cus that's been working out pretty darn well for her, now hasn't it?

My IC told me some things I didn't agree with but I can accept that, and we briefly explored if I was willing to "yield to win" to which I said I'm unable to do any longer. I'm having a really difficult time detaching and just having fun on my own, at this point I choose to just tear the band-aid off and let nature take its course.

Look, if we were talking about... "my wife doesn't help with housework" it would be a way different conversation. Yes, in marriage there are compromises and 'pick your battle' decisions to be made. But when we are talking about your wife cheating on you, helll naw to the 'yield to win' bullshit. That was advice you got what, 8 months ago now? How's that been working for you?

One step at a time. I told WW I love her and I still care about her. She said the same.

No more ILY's. Just my 0.02. And no your wife patently doesn't truly love you. To be fair - I think she has some serious issues of her own to work through and I think she maybe loves you the best way she knows how. But it is perfectly okay for that not to be enough for YOU.

I suppose I could say that I'm encouraged that she wanted to talk, and hopeful she will hear me this time, or maybe a different counselor might give us a plan back to sanity. But my self-preservation kicks in and doesn't want to consider those possibilities because the constant rejection is so painful.

Oh hcsdi. I've heard you singing this song for 6 months now. If she wanted to hear you, she would have done by now. I know how addictive the hopium is my friend. But for your own sanity you have got to put it down and really LOOK at your ww. Think if it was a friend's wife that has acted like this. What advice would you give them?

As for her 'I don't want to get divorced'... my response to that would be "I didn't want my wife to cheat on me either but here we are."

If I am not mistaken, this website was built by a couple who successfully reconciled. Of course, I would love to cheer you on if your wife has shown you something, anything, you can work with except the few crumbs of hope she throws your way once in a while.

Like was said above, rinse, repeat.

Sadly the above, I couldn't have said it better.

You have gone through this cycle many times in the past hoping for a different result that never materialize. She is basically engaging in a war of attrition. By the tone of your recent post, it seems to suggest she has successfully worn you down.

It is understandable you want to remain in the marriage(no matter what). But you have to accept she will not do the things you need/want to heal.

Best of luck.

This0is0Fine
Thank you, I will certainly take a look.

One of the things I said to WW that I don't want to talk about things alone, without a moderator or counselor, because I feel like we're talking two different languages.

I think you're wise not to discuss your M or her A without an observer. A good MC's observations can get to your W in ways you can't.

A good MC will also confront redefinitions that your W devises. Our MC interrupted the flow again and again to ask what one of us heard, and I was shocked at how often my W received my communications differently from how the MC received them. IOW, my W misread me a lot, and our MC worked hard (and effectively but oh so slowly) to get my W to hear what I actually meant.

I hope your W follows through with setting up a discernment session.

How is this latest overture any different from all the other times your wife has thrown you a bread crumb, gotten your hopes up, and then dropped you on your head?

I told you that she was going to keep reeling you back in to keep you on the hook for as long as it suits her. You threatened divorce and she called your bluff. She really has no reason to take anything that you say seriously from this point forward because she knows that she can always get you to walk back any proclamation that you make.

The next time that she disappoints you and you decide it’s time to file for divorce, do yourself a favor and don’t bother telling her. Just have her served and then you can talk about whether you want lawyers involved or to go through mediation.

Blue
It's different. Never before have I told her I can see no way forward, and that divorce is the only option I see.

And she didn't call my bluff... I still haven't called off divorce I only said I was willing to talk with a discernment counselor.

And I will tell the discernment counselor the same I told her, that divorce is not something I want. However, I can't be in a marriage with unaddressed adultery, I cannot rebuild a marriage by myself, and I see no way forward.

This thread makes me sad, that she has shown herself to be the selfish, self-centered victim she was acting like. I wanted to be wrong and hoped she'd get onboard with owning her (at a minimum) half of the issues--but nope. Very self-centered people always, always, always struggle to take true ownership of their mistakes. It's so freaking frustrating.

But you sound great, HowCouldSheDoIt. And by "great," I mean solid, sure of your needs, and done eating these crap emotional sandwiches she's been dishing up. I hope that she realizes this and faces her dang demons--the ones keeping her from admitting that she handled her marital complaints like an immoral, entitled brat. I will keep my fingers crossed that she wakes up. But regardless, you will be ok. I can hear that in you now. No matter what, you will come out on top.

I’m glad to hear that you haven’t called divorce off completely, HSCDI. If that’s the case, you still need to proceed as if it’s going to happen. Have a consultation with a lawyer. Even if you end up going through a mediator, you want to know what your best and worst case scenarios are likely to be.

Before you set foot in a discernment counselor’s office, you need to tell your wife you want the full truth about any other affairs in the past. To reiterate something discussed in your threads in the past, I simply don’t believe that a woman who behaved as brazenly as your wife did had never engaged in infidelity in the past. I’m not a fan of polygraphs, in terms of their ability to gage anything other than anxiety (or lack thereof) but they are useful in determining how serious your spouse is about proving their honesty and for extracting infamous "parking lot confessions."

You might think this is domineering but if you consider the number of shit sandwiches you’ve been forced to swallow for the past year, you owe it to yourself to know the full extent of what you’re being asked to forgive.

I realize that you love your wife, but the person that you are dealing with is not the same person.

The one you courted, married, and lived with for all those years is gone. This is a new person that you are dealing with.

It is not the person that you previously loved, and she is showing by her actions that she is not wanting to try and be that person.

You need to realize this. This is not the same person.

Being in love with this current person before you is not a good recommendation.

That last relationship is gone.Done and dusted.

This current relationship needs to be developed if you want it to.

But consider, the person you loved is not the same person.

Her actions thus far show this.

In any dealings with her going forward, consider that.

The last relationship is done, murdered.

If you want to endeavor to build another relationship with her, you need to set your expectations, your boundaries. And then you can decide if you are in love with her.

Hope this helps.

[This message edited by paboy at 8:03 AM, Saturday, September 11th]

And that is the same with her. The person she says she loves, is the one she knew before her adultery.

The person she had developed a relationship over a long period of years.

The one she is conversing with now, is the one she betrayed. Who she blames, who reminds her of her actions or lack of them.

Here actions do not show that she loves that one.

Hopefully you can realize what I am informing you.

Look at what you need going forward, and whether she is willing to help.

Than you can rebuild this love.

Thank you all so much for the kind and supportive words.

My situation is horrible and really too long overdue.

I've been thinking about my financial plan after she gets everything she is entitled to. It doesn't hurt, rather it feels inevitable. Like I've accepted it, and given a sense of proportion it isn't that bad.

The planning has also given me strength and a sense of purpose.

Thank you again for the kind and supportive words.