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Later after I told her I was moving to D, she just went with it. I asked her "When did you give up?" She said "The argument before I left. When did you give up?"

This is still a turning point for you HCSDI. No matter what happens from now on, by reclaiming your life it will get better for you. As we all said her cheating was a cruel calculated decision by her. It was not even a drunken one night stand and neither did she have an affair partner as such. I think she took that trip with your daughter just to have a fling which she could rub in your face. After that it was all about securing herself financially. Once that was done she just checked out. It was probably too much to have you focusing on her act. This marriage was long over before you knew it. Let your children know and the reason too.

HCSDI, you remind me very much of myself a few years ago. I'm glad you've found peace and a plan for moving forward. I'm sorry your WW wasn't able to do the work. I also found that once I made the decision to D, it brought peace, and not stress. That surprised me.

I think you will have a bright future ahead of you. You are removing a lot of dead weight from your life in ending the bad M, as you were the only one struggling to fix it. Now that struggle is over, you will have a lot more energy for the things you WANT to do. Stay focused on yourself. Good luck!

Masti pretty well nails it. Your STBXW is truly gutless. Her ONS, as I stated previously, was designed to hurt you and torpedo what was left of your marriage. Do not give her any more strokes. File for divorce, keep it as amicable as possible but do not engage in any conversations that don't involve the divorce or your children. Do not rehash anything with her. She should move out immediately. Take care of yourself physically and emotionally by getting plenty of exercise and spending time with friends and family. Cut her out of your life as if she was a malignant tumor. I failed to do that with my skank of an ex-wife for years. Big mistake. That has since been corrected. I urge you to do the same. She is not your friend. From now on she is nothing and deserves to be thought of in that manner.

Later after I told her I was moving to D, she just went with it. I asked her "When did you give up?" She said "The argument before I left. When did you give up?"

I beg to differ. She never really tried. Her choices would have been different if she had. I'm glad you are finding peace with your new path in life. I think you'll do much better with this choice than if you had tried to continue to convince her to be remorseful.

HCSDI,

I agree with grubs. Your wife never tried and she had given up on the marriage well before her affair. The affair was just a passive-aggressive way to end the marriage and hurt you in the process. Cowardly, if you ask me.

HCSDI,
Sorry for you and your situation to have ended in ways you would have not preferred. I have whacked you a couple of times in this discourse but I did not want to harm you, I too had wished better for you. I could just see that she did not share similar hopes. Check out DSO's book, "Now What?". It is tailored for men like you in your situation. The author reads the audio version and can be quite funny. He doesn't hold our worldview so keep that filter in mind, but he doesn't hold back either so I do think you will find it helpful. Another book I have just discovered is "The Soul of Shame" by Curt Thompson, MD. He does have an unapologetically Biblical worldview and it is quite good. It fleshes out how shame can control us and may help in light of Glover's "No More Mr. Nice Guy".

Your actions now need to reflect your choices, even as difficult and reluctantly they have been forced upon you. Move all of her belongings to another room. If she is at home now, you may want to wait until she leaves again to do it. Rearrange the furniture. Put a keyed lock on the master bedroom and paint the living room if you want to. Start packing since someone will be moving, if not both of you. Downsize that stuff you have been meaning to get rid of. Grey Rock/180 moving forward. No malice, just indifference. Be gone from home when it is time for her to go to the airport so there are no goodbyes. She can call an Uber. You no longer perform any husband, protector, provider duties in any way, shape or form. If she asks if you will take her to the airport, the answer is one word, no. She is smart. She can figure it out.

She needs to realize in real, tangible ways that this seemingly small choice to "give up" has resulted in a shift of tectonic proportions that she could not possibly have foreseen. When she next sees you, her house and surroundings will have changed (evolved on without her knowledge or even her consent), her patient unassuming husband who was willing to discuss any and all things, endure anything for the sake of "us", has vanished. The man she is looking at now has the eyes of a cobra - unblinking, coldblooded and covered in scales, staring back blankly, unspeaking. All accusations of you being cold, mean or callus can be met with a calm, "What do you mean?".

This is not about revenge or punishing her. This is about reflecting in all aspects of your life that you no longer need anything from her anymore. That ship has sailed. This is about you taking back your personal agency. I think you will be amazed at how empowering it feels to once again being the captain of your destiny.

And work on you. Read and listen to all the books you can, change your eating habits, exercise, buy new clothes that fit well, buy new shoes too (it makes a difference), get a new haircut if needed, get a tan and maintain a little bit of color if that works for you. And after all of this, you can measure your self resolve proportionally to the degree that you don't give a crap if she notices any of it, or not. All the best to you.

I feel better, and I feel lighter now having absolutely no expectation that she come to the table to R.

My deepest sympathies that it has come to this but it is better that you now recognize this for what it is rather than allowing hope to cloud your judgment. It's heart-wrenching to realize a person whom you love cares so little for you that they are unwilling to put forth even the tiniest bit of effort. I pray that you stay strong and continue to insist that those around you treat you with respect.

My prayers are with you.

I apologize up front here if I am misunderstanding or if English is your second language.

To be frank- OP, you sound really emotionally needy and childish. What is a "comfort break" and why do you feel like she should be calling you to "reassure" you all the time? Grown men don't need to be "reassured"...that's something for little kids.

The emoji thing is something a 12 year old would say and come up with...

Seriously, and I mean this in as nice a way as it can be said, your posts come off almost child like in the need for her to pat you on the head and tell you that you are good enough. That's a phase that, as an adult, you have to move well beyond. Confidence is inside you, not external. You can't create it externally...it only lives inside you.

That's something she can't fix. If you need a dose of maturity, confidence, and self esteem...then it's on you to make that happen.

Good luck.

To be frank- OP, you sound really emotionally needy and childish. What is a "comfort break" and why do you feel like she should be calling you to "reassure" you all the time? Grown men don't need to be "reassured"...that's something for little kids.

Not everyone processing pain the same way and they certainly don't all have the same needs. OP clearly needs to feel appreciated and loved by his wife, as it appears those feelings have been missing from his marriage even before she betrayed him.

Only he can determine what he needs from her.

In the end, she couldn't even give him these small gestures when she knew it would likely end their marriage.

You may mean well with your advice but it comes across as shaming. That doesn't help him.

Curious:
I like how you think! I'll have to figure out how to apply your advice to my situation, knowing that I also want to preserve the parenting relationship.

WalkingHome:
Everybody responds to the trauma in different ways I guess.

Not long ago I had told my therapist that if you look at my requests (comfort break, emoji) without any background or history, I imagine they would look petty and silly. With more perspective of my story I believe a person would understand them as my desperate attempts to bring my WW to the table to R.

Obviously my requests pissed her off but my thoughts were fuck it, I get to ask for what I want. The point I was trying to make was that even with such simple, straight forward, easy to do requests she refused them.

In case you're curious, the comfort break idea came from me asking "I really need you to feel me here" and "I'm triggering, I could use some support" which after a few painful iterations degraded to her asking "What do you want to hear" to "Just tell me what to say." So I invented the comfort break.

The emoji came from my continued disappointment that she hadn't read what I asked for or made efforts I had asked for, to hear the reply "Well I don't always think about it." Out of frustration I said "would you consider a small frown by my name to remind you?"

Now I absolutely feel a fool for being so desperate to want to R.

Ominous:
You are spot on.

You are not a fool. Rather you are a victim of a massive betrayal and further emotional abuse that's continued after D day.

Unlike her incredible self centered focus (including crossing boundaries and committing adultery while her daughter observed)you chose a path as a responsible member of a family.

Your wife didn't just betray you - she failed as a role model for her children (especially your adult daughter).

Regardless of her selfish excuses etc, you deserve a loving and supportive life partner.

HCSDI, it's unfortunate that it's come to this but I'm glad to see that you are taking things into your own hands and putting yourself first. Everything about her reaction says that she wants out but doesn't want to be the one to end it.

Everything about her reaction says that she wants out but doesn't want to be the one to end it.

And she didn't care how much more damage she did to you to avoid the appearance of being the guilty party even though ultimately she was.

[This message edited by grubs at 2:46 AM, Sunday, September 5th]

How has things transpired? I presume that she has left. What are your current actions?

Later after I told her I was moving to D, she just went with it. I asked her "When did you give up?" She said "The argument before I left. When did you give up?"

And she's trying to manipulate you into thinking that it was your making demands of any kind that made her want to divorce.

Even now, she refuses to be honest. The reality is that she gave up when she decided to cheat on you while on vacation with your daughter, didn't care about getting caught, and didn't care what the outcome would be.

All of the fleeting moments of sadness on her part that you were desperate to interpret as signs of regret or remorse were nothing more than momentary pangs of anxiety as she came to terms with the idea that her life was about to fundamentally change.

Now that you've made a decision, I think it's time you followed your wife's lead and you start looking out for yourself first and what you're going to do build a new life without her. Fortunately, you have an empty nest, so a part from obligatory milestone events (such as your daughter's wedding or the birth of grandchildren), you won't be forced to have anything to do with her anymore.

I do warn you, however, that once the shine wears off of her newfound income and independence and she's in the position of having to rely only on herself for everything, she will try to rope you back in some way. Do not make the mistake of thinking she's having a sudden change of heart. Most likely, she will offer to stay "friends" with you or maybe even trick you into bed a few more times so she can keep you on the hook for when she wants or needs something from you.

WW is gone for 3 weeks.

BluerthanBlue Just because I'm a stickler for details, I'm not an empty nester. I still have a 17 DS and a 14 DD at home.

I probably mentioned this already, but her and I are still talking, it feels fine. Not lovey dovey, no ILYs or anything, mostly about the kids.

I have an attorney to work with, I don't believe she does, and I suggested to her before she left that we use a mediator, because I really want to stress the amicable outcome, and preserve the parenting relationship. I think that is very important.

One of the mediators I contacted will only do a consultation if we're both present on zoom, and asked me to forward an email to WW and ask her to respond that she's willing to do that, and then we'll get a consultation scheduled. I forward the message. WW doesn't respond.

WW calls me, clearly upset, and says "I don't want to divorce."
Me:"I don't see any other option"
WW:"What if there was? What if there was another option?"
Me:"I don't even know what to say to that. I don't know what it would look like. I don't know what, after 10 months, would be different."
WW:"Well would you be willing to talk?"
Me:"Not just you and I, no. Things are too far gone and I'm not willing to do it. If you want to engage a discernment session with a counselor, I will attend."
WW:"What is a discernment session?"
Me:"It is where you meet with someone and they work with you to lay out a plan that helps you decide if you want to do the work to reconcile, or if divorce is a better option. There is no therapy and they don't try to fix things, rather they facilitate a discussion to help people decide on next steps."
WW:"Ok, I'll get something set up."

So I don't know, I figured by sharing this everyone is going to palm slap and write back "wtf HCSDI! Don't engage!!"

I'm quite surprised she wants to talk, and I am willing to do discernment. I believe nothing will change, and she will still refuse to do any work toward R. I have zero expectations that she will respond any differently.

I'm quite surprised she wants to talk

Go back and count how many times you've said this in your previous posts. How did those times go? She does something "unexpected" and improves for a few days. After you seem like you are invested, she stops trying and dismisses you when you point it out. Rinse and repeat.

There's nothing wrong with going to the discernment but don't expect anything to come of it. Really place the accountability on her to come up with a plan. DO NOT help her. She's been told over and over and over again what you want and need. If she shows up unprepared, you already know she's putting just as much effort into it as before. If she can do all that legwork for this new job, she can do it for this session.

It will still come back to what is needed to get you out of infidelity. Your options have always been to reconcile or divorce.

Is this discernment to help R or D. It should never be used as a form of pick me dance.

At this point, your best option is to pursue divorce. And this ought to be your mindset. This should be how this meeting is conducted.

She may realize that this is the death knell and have a come to.... time, and pull her finger out(which I hope she does), or its time to pull the plug.

With your wife, I don't think she has come to her own decision yet, and remains undecided. You will have to make a decision on what's best for you.

While she was back, did you ask her if she cheated with anyone while she was away? I dont expect an honest answer if she did, but when she answers "no", ask her how you’re supposed to know that it’s the truth when she’s cheated before while she was away. Ask her how you’re supposed to feel safe in the relationship while she is a cheater and not home. Did she talk about the people in her class? Did you look at her phone while she was home?

As for discernment, I’ll be very surprised if she researches that and sets something up. You need to set a deadline. Tell her something like she has til Saturday to either set something up or respond to the mediator and if she doesn’t, you’ll be getting a lawyer to have her served.

I know I know, uou want to use mediation. If she ends up coming to the table you can switch to mediation. But you need to start following through. You tend to let her rebut and deflect and wait for her to follow thru on these alternatives. You need to stop waiting. Until she walks the talk and you see real action, proceed as if she’s said nothing. Cuz she really has said nothing. Just meaningless words until she actually does anything.

She was the one that chose to leave and start this new career that will take her away for training and out of town 5 days a week. That’s not what a remorseful cheater does. That’s not what a rebuilder does.

If you do go to discernment that needs to be made clear. She left town and cheated. Fucked a stranger. And then solely decided without your agreement that she’d start a new career and leave town again to do it. And then the career will make her leave town every week for the foreseeable future.

It’s not pro-marriage. It’s not pro-rebuilding. It’s not pro-healing. She’s blamed you every step of the way.

So tell her, schedule discernment or mediation this week or she should get a lawyer. You can tell her mediation is cheaper for both of you, but you are not sitting around a waiting for it.

And that’s it. No more leeway. She’s trying to find ways to buy time. Don’t sell it to her.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:43 AM, Tuesday, September 7th]

She’s trying to find ways to buy time.

Agreed.