SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

If my WW makes an effort, helps, nurtures, etc. then I feel optimistic, hopeful and I pursue R.
If my WW stonewalls me and ignores me, then I feel abandoned, resentful and I pursue D.

Look, I am not saying that other people's actions or lack thereof don't have an effect on us. Of course they do, especially in a romantic relationship.

But as I see it you are still very much using the threat of D to provoke the outcome YOU want from your ww; namely that she do a cranial rectal inversion and come to you saying how sorry she is and that of course you're her one and only and she will do anything to save the marriage. You know, all the things that BS's want to hear from their ws. You've been threatening D for months now. What's changed? How is her behavior *really* any different? That's what I'm saying - nothing you're doing is changing the outcome for you here. It's just keeping you stuck.

I understand where you're at, believe me - I was there too.

I would like some clarification here because the way I see it, we all base our actions / feelings on what our spouse / SO does.

That's the old me. The new me will behave in a way that is true to me and to my values. The new me will live authentically and speak my truth. The new me will love fully so long as my respect and love are reciprocated in kind. The new me has boundaries and when those boundaries are no longer honored, the new me will deuce the hell on outta there and not waste my precious and limited time trying to make it work when it just doesn't.

The difference when you turn the corner, when you let go of the outcome, when you REALLY get to the point of no return, the moment where you actually are willing to lose the marriage - when the fear of change is no longer outweighed by the fear of staying where you're at - that difference, my friend, is palpable. In your SOUL, from the top of your head to the tips of your toes, you FEEL it. You're not there yet I don't think, and that's okay. It takes as long as it takes to get there.

I spun around in that push-me-pull-you cycle with my xwh for mooooonths. I took all his crumbs and told myself they were enough. Cus he was "trying" you see. He said he loved me. He said he was sorry. So I knew he really really meant it for reals. He even cried!! And meanwhile while he was doing all this, he was still looking up the ap on fb, and flirting with other women, and making plans for 'our' future (that I would bankroll of course). I was trying to R. I did NOT want to get divorced or separate. I wanted SO badly for him to come to the R table. (any of this sounding familiar??) 2 things happened that changed everything for me. I stumbled on the plain evidence that he was flirting and sexting with ap number who-knows-what while he was at the vet 'supporting' me while I put my dog to sleep. He sent me a text when I questioned him on the vet ap and finally put my foot down on what I was willing to tolerate or not that said "let's just get the divorce over with." Less than 12 hours later, all his crap was boxed up in the garage and the locks were changed. It hurt, that text. 9 years together and that's how he chose to end it. That sucks. But you know? It got me unstuck and moving forward. THAT was the moment the switch flipped. I no longer cared what he did, what he said, or what he wanted. Because what I wanted was OUT. I wanted out from a relationship where I was not valued except for the money I made. I wanted out from a relationship where the other person had no personal accountability or responsibility. I wanted out from a relationship where I had to make myself into something I didn't want to be in order to 'win' the other person's affection and respect. I wanted out from all. of. that. And I wanted out because that is what was best for me, and what was best for ME at that point had nada to do with him.

After almost three years on SI, I watch newcomers struggle just like I did and my heart hurts for them because I remember SO well what a horrible churning feeling that was that I lived with for 9 months. I remember feeling so low and so worthless and so devalued by the one person who should have had my back. That is not a feeling I wish for anyone.

Where I see you still getting stuck is that you're still basing R or D on what SHE does, not what is best for YOU. If she makes an effort, then you will R. If she doesn't, then you will D. But she hasn't made any effort yet. She has spent the last ten months playing the same ol poor me routine and making you feel like crap. She has now taken a job in which there's a high (HIGH) likelihood she will cheat on you again (since she's done NO work on her why's or figuring out why she chose to cheat on you in the first place) because she has no accountability to you or her marriage or herself. And moreover IMHO, she plain doesn't care how her actions affect others or what damage she does. I am sure she was different when you fell in love and when you married her. Mine was too. But THIS person, this wife, this cheater was always there too - she just hid it well. That is such a hard thing to grapple with and such an impossible thing to try to get your mind around. Until you do. And once that switch flips, everything changes.

Full disclosure, in cases like yours is and like mine was, I believe now with hindsight and healing, that D is the only outcome that leads to happy for the BS. But that doesn't stop me hoping for you HCSDI - that she wakes up before that switch flips over in you (I believe it will, sooner than later - there's only so much limbo a person can tolerate). I hope that but realistically given her behavior towards you since dday, I don't know if she will. And what I absolutely don't want for you is to spend more months and more years with someone that just doesn't have it in her anymore to be a safe partner. You deserve better.

Your wife has been away for weeks. If you only talk 15 minutes every other day that’s connecting 1 out of 168 hours a week. How is that a marriage let alone a marriage that is trying to recover from infidelity.

And how do you know she hasn’t connected one way or another, short term, long term, emotionally, physically, with another man in her class.

She even had to extend a week. Are you really sure that’s for the class or because she doesn’t want to separate from someone there?

I hope that’s all not true. But she doesn’t exactly ooze trust. Maybe you have a way of knowing these things. We urged your to get a PI and confirm what you hope is the case.

You have the ability to put up with far more disrespect than I ever would. It seems you now have the conviction to do what will get you out of this limbo. I hope you can follow through. You’ll be far happier down the road with this person in your rear view mirror. It will take a while to get emotionally clear of her, but when you do, you’ll find the air fresher.

Dude:
is your WW justification for having them A in the first place, and her current insistence on rug weeping, solely based on her opinion that you were a terrible husband?

To be fair, she's has not taken the position of justifying anything. She told me she doesn't blame me for the A, and said it was a moment of weakness. I believe this is the right position for her to take and I accept it. Her reasons for being a very difficult spouse to R with, those reasons are hers alone. I care about her and would love to address them, but thus far she has decided not to talk.

Ellie: I believe I understand your point, thank you. I would correct this:

But as I see it you are still very much using the threat of D to provoke the outcome YOU want from your ww

To read that I'm not threatening D. It isn't a threat and I don't want her to see it that way. Despite being fully committed to following through I do hope that she decides to return to the M. But that isn't a threat, it is a statement that I don't want to spend any more time being unhappy, and given that I see no path forward.

Robert: I appreciate your words. This is the one time I shut her down from talking. I simply do not want to re-hash a discussion I have had with her so many, many times. If she wants to talk (which so far she does) then she needs to put the effort into a 3rd party who can mediate a communication barrier that I believe is impossible to clear by ourselves.

HCSD - Something adds up to you that doesn’t add up to me. Of course, you know your situation best.

WW loves her husband and marriage, goes on a vacation with DD, and had a "moment of weakness." A fling would describe it?

We’ve seen a number of WW who loved their husband snd marriage yet had an A. Those WW’s were desperate to save the marriage, were extremely remorseful, and did the work required to R. Their baseline, however, was that I loved my husband, marriage, and family before the A,and after the A. Thus, the work gets put in to R. The moment of weakness would be discussed in full, with you and in IC. You would get the truth.

It’s great that WW isn’t blaming you for the A, but if she loved all the three things I mentioned above, but only wants to rugsweep, did she ever, and does she now, love you, the marriage snd the family?

To me it doesn’t add up. She isn’t safe by a long shot. I don’t understand how you can accept her moment of weakness story at face value with you having zero details about it, the circumstances, what led up to it, her thought process, and why this is a big nothing that needs to be rug swept. You have absolutely no details.

Bottom line is that I wouldn’t buy the moment of weakness BS.

I somewhat agree with what Dude is saying, however, I think it is your WW showing that although she may say she loves the M and her family, she is a selfish person and loves herself the most.

Her "moment of weakness" is easily explained, if she is really just a selfish person who chose her needs over the M and her "love" for he BH.

Her failure to provide details and her need to rugsweep also appear to be motivated by selfishness. Addressing what she did is hard and she doesn't want to. She "loves" her M and family, but not enough to do the work.

She can continue this narrative, and when you D, it will be YOUR fault, because she wanted to remain in the M, but YOU just had to be difficult and couldn't move past the A.

HCSDI, I think you are making the right decision. Don't ever stop standing up for yourself and your needs. I think your WW is less interested in R than she is in saving face and not being the bad guy. She will claim she did everything she could to save the M. Except for actually participate in R, be open and honest, and working with you to try to regain your trust. But she won't tell people that part.

Thank you for the kind words.

Should we D she might take it as my fault, who knows... regardless if you say to a BS to "just get over it" I really think you're saying to them "just D already" because that's the only way I see them just "getting over it." Unless they're hiding a secret affair and have an interest in the status quo...

But thank you indeed for the reply.

HCSDI,

In terms of the difference between what your wife says - she wants to save the marriage - and her actions - barely being present physically or even digitally, and refusing to own what she did, a question occurs to me. If you were to divorce, and split custody of the kids 50/50, how would that work with her being away from home for several weeks at a time?

All the time she can maintain this situation, keeping you in a position where you hold things together at home, her life in absence can continue. The second you begin divorce proceedings, she faces having to be far more present for the kids, and make time for them. And that will be a problem for her.

Which gives her reason to say things that are the opposite of her actions, to keep you where you are, which enables her to remain where she is; distant, and living an essentially single life.

Is it possible that your wife is using your desire to reconcile as a way to 'play' you while she lives a single life and refuses to address anything about her affair?

I hate saying this, because you are a good man and you do not deserve anything that has been done to you, but I think you are being strung along.

M1965
Thank you for the kind words! We've talked about what custody would look like, it would be 50/50 but the custody isn't so much a thing as I have 1 adult and two underage, one 17 and one 14. So he'll be 18 next year and not an issue, so it is just the one daughter and she'll likely want to live with me anyway. The D paperwork has you specify who has what kid on birthdays, each holiday, weekend, etc. and assuming the D is final early 2022, we have the weekends and Easter / Memorial Day for him then he's 18, and like I said we're pretty much just talking about my daughter at this point. We also said that when she's travelling, I should have the kids because that is better than them being alone in the house.

Of course things could change but we're both committed to having a good parenting relationship for the kids. Even though they're older I want as little trauma as possible for them.

So custody is a factor but not a big one thankfully. I'm more thinking that my moving to D is causing her to consider things, which is good.

How are you doing?

Nice of you to ask.

Doing OK, no real update. I saw her yesterday, she was home for a day (it was a mix up, she probably shouldn't have come home it sounds like they were upset at her) and so she left again this morning to be home on Friday.

She was nice, not overly close and warm, but nice; we ate dinner, sat together with the kids, went to bed, had a quicky, then she was up before 4 and out of the house at 5.

Other than that same as usual, talk 15 min a day, chit-chat about her day, about the kids, just stuff.

So, basically nothing to report.

On one hand I thought on these calls she might say something reparative or compassionate (which I did not receive)
On the other hand I don't expect her to because of how we ended things where I wanted a 3rd person there.

Nothing new.

You want to hear something funny though? Last night while I was waiting for take-out, I casually talked with a woman also waiting, she was pretty. I noticed she wasn't wearing a ring and for a moment I wondered if she's single and then like a second later they asked her how many entrees in her order and she said "Two." So probably has a boyfriend and not single.

Anyway, I'm still married and not at all ready to date, but when she answered "Two" I felt a little disappointed!!

Do you think that having sex with your WW right now might do more harm than good in that it will confuse the matter unnecessarily?

Dude

Do you at look like him?

Is it a good idea to have sex? Probably not, I don't know. Maybe it will be confusing should we continue with a D, but I have a very non-angry, matter-of-fact approach to the D should it go that way. As in "It's a shame we couldn't work out an arrangement" and I seriously am not angry about it and want the best parenting relationship I can have.

It's hard to describe how I feel too. Like if she arrived home on Friday and said "Let's D" I would be "Ok!" in that isn't the outcome I wanted but nothing in the past year has been what I wanted, but at least it would be forward motion.

[This message edited by HowCouldSheDoIt at 3:41 AM, Wednesday, October 6th]

Your situation baffles me to no end. I still can’t understand if you snd your WW each believed that you had a good, loving M before her A. I don’t understand why she had her A, especially on vacation with your DD. Why weren’t u on that vacation?

You seem to be able to be married or divorced, and your WW seems ambivalent as well.

Is it just me or is the relationship pre A difficult to understand and your WW actions now equally baffling.

And, your WW moment of weakness story still doesn’t provide context. Was she a happy wife who cheated in a moment of weakness because an opportunity presented itself, she wanted to see what sex with someone else was like after many years of happy monogamy, and was selfish?

Or, was she an unhappy wife engaging in what in her mind was en exit A or simply an A out of general unhappiness with the marriage, her life, boredom?

To me, this just sound like a mark one mod 0 ONS. Context is lacking.

You are not a lone. I check on you every day.

Is your wife having a problem in the training program? Is the problem related to her personality or typical behavior that is familiar to you? In any event, her career is all on her and she can't blame you or her marriage this time.

Actually I think there has been a change of sorts in the status. Rather than file for divorce, you left the door open for R (one more time). However, consistent with her prior behavior, she did not walk through that doorway - and worse, it sounds like she didn't even give it a glance.

So what I hear from you is that her behavior this weekend was one more disappointment and pushed you further emotionally towards accepting D.

IMO your wife is still pretty much in her own world. She seems content with the comfort/security of being married (but still shows no empathy for you).

IMO it's not likely that your wife will file for divorce (and in her head be viewed as the bad guy).

In addition, her pattern is to blame you for marriage issues rather than hold herself accountable.

She's minimized to herself the impact of her affair on the marriage (and you) - and is now of the view that your inability to forgive & forget is the problem (your problem that's beyond her control).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 1:32 PM, Wednesday, October 6th]

Dude
I would like you to explain this, I don't know what it means:

this just sound like a mark one mod 0 ONS

I would also like it if we could back up, and give me a hand with your comments:

Are you saying that if I could provide you with more background and detail, you might have some advice?

Are you suggesting that I could be missing something? That I don't have enough background and detail, and because I'm lacking the context that's what's causing a problem?

It's difficult to tell over this message board; are you empathizing with me? Commiserating with me? Swinging a 2x4? Such is the disadvantage of a message board, I can't really tell.

Robert

Many blessings sir for your kind, supportive words. I am not able to respond more right now but I can later.

Sorry for the jargon. I meant this doesn’t sound like your typical ONS.

What I mean by context is this: your WW appears indifferent to R snd thus her marriage. To understand why would better help in providing advice but even more so, help you.

Your WW is obviously not fighting for her M, which is the cause of your upset, and making you indifferent towards D.

What is the context of your WW indifference towards you snd the M? I still don’t have a grasp. She had an A on vacation with your DD out of weakness. So, are you telling us that you both felt that the marriage was great prior to the A, but in this moment of weakness she did a selfish snd stupid act?
If so, then why is she fighting R and willing to risk the M?

If relationship was poor prior to the A, do both of you hold that view? If yes, why are you pushing for R in what was an otherwise bad M prior to the affair?

In sum, what is difficult to discern is the state of the M prior to the affair. It doesn’t excuse the A but could put your WW current actions in context.

Dude:

My apologies but this is what comes to mind this time...

I appreciate you asking. First, it is hard to recap all that I've discussed over the months but I can summarize:

The marriage was overall good for at least 17 years. The last few years have been difficult. Among the contention was money. We both made mistakes, of which I have complete remorse for mine.
So the marriage wasn't great.
After D-Day things became much worse. WW was cold, distant, 1% remorse, 1% respect. Still somewhat loving, but very little compassion and close to zero reparative. With the exception of a few brief moments, the love has died a bit every day.

You are wondering why is she so distant? I wonder that too. She won't talk. We haven't had a real conversation in months. My new reality is that she doesn't talk.

Why doesn't she talk? I don't know, she has not chosen to share that with me.

Surely you must have some idea? The only thing I can be sure of is that she doesn't feel safe talking with me. She hasn't told me why. She hasn't told me what she needs. I believe she is harboring a deep resentment to me, but I'm really just speculating. A few months ago I gave up trying to talk to her. I mean we talk, it is chit-chat, the type of talking I mean is when you have a discussion, cover some emotional ground. I figure she can make the next move. It has been since early July, so about 3 months now.

Why am I fighting for the M? I'm not any longer. I still love her and care about her, but I'm no longer willing to fight for the M. Maybe I'm wallowing in self-pity, but I truly see this situation as accepting the consequences of my prior choices. Not the A, but obviously she won't talk to me because of me. I can only do so much before I just accept it and move on.

Having said that, she did want to talk a few weeks ago but I shut it down because I'm so sick of the endless loop we were in. We might talk with a therapist, we'll see.

Robert:

You are not a lone. I check on you every day.

This is very nice of you. Thoughtful and touching.

Is your wife having a problem in the training program? Is the problem related to her personality or typical behavior that is familiar to you? In any event, her career is all on her and she can't blame you or her marriage this time.

No, I don't think she's having a problem other then just getting into things after having been out for so many years. The mistake the other day was more of a misunderstanding.

Actually I think there has been a change of sorts in the status. Rather than file for divorce, you left the door open for R (one more time). However, consistent with her prior behavior, she did not walk through that doorway - and worse, it sounds like she didn't even give it a glance.

Correct I did not file, I downgraded from D to Ambivalent. I'm not willing to put in any more effort until she does. And she did look in the doorway, we talked a bit about what next steps could be and I shut down other discussion so she might have been willing to open things up but I don't want to without a professional. I'm OK with things because I told her I want her to get through this orientation / probation. (I'm selfish, having her employed means less alimony).

So what I hear from you is that her behavior this weekend was one more disappointment and pushed you further emotionally towards accepting D.

It was one evening and it didn't sway anything. It fully met my expectations.

IMO your wife is still pretty much in her own world. She seems content with the comfort/security of being married (but still shows no empathy for you).

I would encourage you not to try to speculate. It is a black hole with no escape!! But yes, no empathy, no attempts at empathy.

IMO it's not likely that your wife will file for divorce (and in her head be viewed as the bad guy).

I don't think she will file, especially now after I told her I wanted out. She'll follow my lead.

In addition, her pattern is to blame you for marriage issues rather than hold herself accountable.

Not quite accurate, she knows she shares the blame for the marriage issues. What I have yet to receive, and R will be impossible without, is her full responsibility for the A, and compassionate and reparative words and acts. This is the sticking point. I feel she does not want to amend for the cheating. RugSweep is the only option I'm given.

She's minimized to herself the impact of her affair on the marriage (and you) - and is now of the view that your inability to forgive & forget is the problem (your problem that's beyond her control).

YES. I feel the exact same way. If I want the M, then I need to forgive and let this go. It is completely my problem.

When she has said stuff like "You just want me to grovel" and "Stop making me feel guilty" I just shut down and inside I'm screaming at her how much more helpful and easier this would be if she would take this seriously, make an effort, get informed, and get on my side!! It feels like any time I had tried to advance on addressing the adultery, she's right there like a goalie, blocking me and making sure I don't get close.

In D the path to forgiveness is much more available... I don't need to share hurt and pain, I don't need her to emotionally identify, I don't need her to make an effort, I don't need her to acknowledge my difficulties, any amends or restitution... I will have released any expectation of a relationship, fidelity, loyalty, nothing. All gone. I'm free to just let it all go and forgive her and be free.

Thank you again Robert for your kind and supportive words.