SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

This might get lost while I transitioned from LS to SI, but he gave her a ride home few times.

BIG RED FLAGS

Yes, it won't change, ever. She will be a cheater forever. Like if i kill someone and spend the rest of my life caring for eldery I am still a murderer. There are some action you simply can't take back, no matter how much you want. My wife's personal integrity took a hit and it's up to her to deal with that.

You are right, but that is not what I meant.

What I meant is that right now her mindset is still that of a cheater: do/say whatever I need to in order to get what I want, manipulate to achieve my selfish goals, not thinking of the pain I am inflicting on other people. Being selfish. Me me me.

When your wife is starting to emerge from "being a cheater" you won't have to do all of the work. You won't have to drag her through doing the right things. You'll see a lot more proactive action on her part. This action will be consistent over time

[This message edited by faithfulman at 10:19 AM, January 28th (Thursday)]

I honestly don't think there is anything she's holding back, what I know is backed by their texts and I believe if it went further it would be discussed. If we want to be explicit, it went as far as his hand in my wife's knickers for a few seconds. Kind of a grey area and probably something I can get over. She left after few seconds and the messages back this up actually.

First of all, there is nothing "grey" about a man putting his hands in your wife's private area while they are alone in a car.

Sometimes it helps (or hurts) to really think these things through and break them down.

- How did this man get access to her vaginal area? Was it accidental? Did she have no idea his hands were near her vagina? Maybe he got halfway there before without complaint and decided she was ready this time?

- Why would he think he could "go there"? Wouldn't there be a lot of "activity" in order to prep for this step? She didn't see this coming, particularly with all the texting etc. that preceded this incident?

- Did he force himself on her? Like pry her legs open? Or did she put herself in a position for this to happen then maybe had second thoughts?

- Where else has he "been" with your wife? (She is almost certainly minimizing in this respect)

- What about her? It sounds like she is passive and he just "did stuff". I don't believe that. She was an active participant. What did she "do to him" physically or otherwise to encourage this activity?

And so on.

Some people will tell you this is too nitty-gritty and unnecessary torturing your wife or yourself. I disagree, even though it is torturous.

The reason I disagree is that cheaters like to gloss over the real story so they look better: "He jammed his pants in my knickers and I shut it down!"

What they neglect to mention is the grinding, touching, deep kissing, maybe her touching him intimately, maybe acts that did not involve hands at all, perhaps a number of "buildup sessions" prior to that etc. Maybe above the belt was okay for her.

They skip past what really happened and make themselves into a mini-hero. He tried to get in my pants and I stopped it because I am not that kind of girl!

***

It may all be too much for you, and as someone posted above, if you are comfortable with the "summary of events" with your wife leaving out just how active of a participant she was in all of this, then that is your prerogative.

But in my opinion, it lets the cheater off the hook for the hundreds of decisions, lies, plans they made, and actions they undertook to get them to the point where some dude believed she was cool with his hands in her pants (or whatever really happened) and they don't face what they really did, which is not just a session in a car, but a period of planned and executed betrayals without and care for you.

The reason they gloss over the details and timeline is they don't want to think of themselves as "that type of person". When they face "what they actually did" they have to admit they are that type of person, and if they truly want to be better, they have to deal with the whole landscape of that behavior, and not localize it to one incident.

And in the process of dealing with it, they have to risk losing "what they want" which is to stay married to you, even though they created that risk over time and with complete intention.

In my opinion, they put so much effort into betrayal and deceit they need show at least as much effort to truth and building trust.

There's a corny old adage seen on many posters in college dorms...

"If you love something set it free. If it comes back it's yours. If not, it was never meant to be."

Your WW is not at that point yet, she still wants to have some control over the outcome. I think that you are willing close the book on the current marriage and try to restart at some time in the future...

Caught my wife an hour ago going through my phone. WTF

Deer in a headlights.

Me: What are you doing?

W: Nothing (tries to hide the phone)

Me: you are going through my phone?

W: No.

Me: what are you doing then?

W: I wanted to see the pictures you took earlier of DD1

Me: don't be stupid. What did you expected to find?

W: I didn't snoop.

Sure Honey, that's why you had my text open. Like a little child

Any ideas on that? I swear she's turning full psycho since last few days

She's looking to see if you have a girlfriend, and that's why you're pushing for the divorce. See,if you're cheating too, then she can blame you, and not herself.

Change your password.

Any ideas on that? I swear she's turning full psycho since last few days

We are both continuing with IC. As I said above, it's doing us both some good.

Of course you are there and I am not, but can you describe the good therapy is doing her?

What the actual improvement is?

Because from what I can see, she is the same person who was cheating on you except now she has been busted.

At least what is the therapist trying to do for her?

Even better, what is your wife trying to accomplish via therapy? That's what counts.

Often the answer is: "Showing my betrayed spouse that I am in therapy."

I think she may be trying to find out what you have on her. She wants to know what evidence you have that can be held against her.

Any ideas on that? I swear she's turning full psycho since last few days

You share IC's right? Does they know the timeline for the divorce filing? I'd be sharing my concerns with them. My guess is she's not going to do well alone. Any chance she can live with the sister until the divorce?

Tell her she broke your trust yet again and because of that you will password protect your phone (another consequence of her huge betrayal), I agree she's probably trying to find out what you know or maybe to see if you're talking to someone else.

Does she know about this site?

She’s looking for something - maybe she sees a change in you.

I’d be careful if I were you. And stop trusting her - she keeps showing you she’s not trustworthy.

HF,

She's looking to see if you have a girlfriend, and that's why you're pushing for the divorce. See,if you're cheating too, then she can blame you, and not herself.

I totally agree with this, and would also add that the desperation is manifesting itself in her. Mr. F's WW is like a cornered animal now, and I would not be surprised if she starts lashing out.

Change your password.

... but not with this. The situation is bad enough already, so there is no need to make things worse by sowing more seeds of doubt.

Mr. F,

Your WW was hoping that all the intimacy that you two were sharing was a sign of the M healing. She may not have accepted that the M you had was already dead and buried, thinking that she could revive it by pandering to your base instincts.

You believed her that the sex was NSA, but you forgot that cheaters have one thing in common, they lie. You let your defences down, and felt empathy for her, started believing her again.

Whether you R or D, the ultimate choice is yours to make, but in the meantime, don't let your guard down. Observe the actions of your WS, and not listen to their words.

My guess is that she was snooping around to find out more about your plans to sever the marriage + any other intel she could use to her advantage.

She probably doesn't know what that might be. But it may include discussions with friends and family members.

I'm sorry to point this out again, but you're putting yourself at a huge disadvantage. You proceeding by guiding yourself with the principles you would stick to with a faithful wife. Meanwhile, she will do anything to keep you in the dark or get what she wants.

This is all still relatively quite new to her......and you. Look, you just recently had sex. You cannot expect a WS to change quickly. It is the most rare of rare ducks that does so. The vast majority of stories you read here involve rather long, drawn out timelines before a WW "really" starts getting it. The self preservation mode tied to a core wayward mindset takes quite some time to evolve. Years. Of course she was looking for something: what you are doing or what you know. This is not shocking behavior from a WW that is still at the starting line and who has a long and challenging road ahead. I'm not really for changing passwords. It sends the message that you too have something to hide. You don't. If you are really going to D, her knowing what you know is not a big deal.

Her snooping is unsettling and telling, but it is far from unusual, surprising, or unexpected. Get your boundaries set. Plain and simple. Communicate in words and actions your intentions and how you plan on moving forward. Don't contribute to confusion or reasons for her to misinterpret your position.

Be authentic and honest in your intentions. If you genuinely are committed to R as a result of D, make that clear and express that commitment. There are never guarantees, but if that is your intent, reassure her of that.

Just keep in mind, D or not, if you start the journey of R, like most here will tell you, it is an arduous and difficult process of rebuilding trust, and can take years. From my experience as one that did D to R, I can tell you that while it did very much help me and give me advantages in the process, it did NOT change the process of R. It did not reduce the time it took to rebuild trust and the time it took her to get her head back on straight, take full ownership, etc,

So, while I am an advocate of D to R for those that can do it, it is not because it necessarily reduces the pain or duration that is inherent in the R process.

[This message edited by DIFM at 5:39 AM, January 29th, 2021 (Friday)]

Sorry @MrFlibble but I do not see the issue of her looking at your phone unless you have something to hide. Moral high ground here, if my WW wanted or wants to go through my phone she can.

For me I would simply have said to her that she only had to ask and say you would have gladly given her your phone. Its secrecy that breeds mistrust, I know she is the one that cheated but you being totally open would only show her what an honest person looks like and that may, just may, make her have a little more insight into who she became and who you need her to be.

I also think that she is so scared of losing you for good that she desperately wanted to find anything that would give her new insight into your intentions.

Just my twopence worth.

[This message edited by iggyb at 6:47 AM, January 29th (Friday)]

Caught my wife an hour ago going through my phone.

Any ideas on that?

She's probably trying to figure out if you're cheating. Your plan to divorce and then reconcile might not sound rational to her. Hell, it doesn't sound terribly rational to me and I've been around for awhile. She's been getting all these mixed messages like maybe you still love her, but then this insistence on a hurried divorce like you definitely don't. Could be she's asking herself if you're in such a hurry to go, maybe there's someone you're planning on going to.

It happened before the first kiss and from what I can tell it was innocent, even though I am pretty sure the intetions were already there.

When your wife is starting to emerge from "being a cheater" you won't have to do all of the work. You won't have to drag her through doing the right things. You'll see a lot more proactive action on her part. This action will be consistent over time

She did a lot on her own before, she started dragging her feet mybe two weeks back?

I think the initial shock wore off, she's no longer in a "I will do anything" mode. And it sucks since, in my oppinion, it shows here actions were self preservation, not true remorse.

First of all, there is nothing "grey" about a man putting his hands in your wife's private area while they are alone in a car.

Sorry, might not make myself clear. By grey zone I mean grey zone regardin divorce - It's not an instant dealbreaker if it wasn't taken well.

It makes me sick, but it's maybe for the best to answer still

- How did this man get access to her vaginal area? Was it accidental? Did she have no idea his hands were near her vagina? Maybe he got halfway there before without complaint and decided she was ready this time?

Dress and he went for it when I guess he felt she was "ready"

- Why would he think he could "go there"? Wouldn't there be a lot of "activity" in order to prep for this step? She didn't see this coming, particularly with all the texting etc. that preceded this incident?

I think he simply went for it. It's a logical step when you are douche and the other party kisses back. Nothing like this was preplanned and nothing else like that hapenned before

- Did he force himself on her? Like pry her legs open? Or did she put herself in a position for this to happen then maybe had second thoughts?

Kind of both. He was apparently pretty agressive, that's why my W cut him short

- Where else has he "been" with your wife? (She is almost certainly minimizing in this respect)

I have mentionel this before, but they went on lunch dates. The first hapenned in a elevator on their way back from one. No other going out, but I think it was mostly due to covid restrictions and me being alerted. I can read her pretty good, I knew basicaly two week after it started. Just didn't know the extent

- What about her? It sounds like she is passive

and he just "did stuff". I don't believe that. She was an active participant. What did she "do to him" physically or otherwise to encourage this activity?

Lots of texting. I think she was there for a validation and attention, he just wanted to fuck her. She admits wandering hand on her side too. Over clother and absolutely nothing beyond that. Nothing about any other stuff in their texts. I honestly believe if anything hapenned it would be mentioned. SH's the type that would brag and remind her

But in my opinion, it lets the cheater off the hook for the hundreds of decisions, lies, plans they made, and actions they undertook to get them to the point where some dude believed she was cool with his hands in her pants (or whatever really happened) and they don't face what they really did, which is not just a session in a car, but a period of planned and executed betrayals without and care for you.

Absolutely. There were thousand of little lies and planning (remember that deleted texts? )

In my opinion, they put so much effort into betrayal and deceit they need show at least as much effort to truth and building trust.

That's up to her now, I am done with doing all the work

And thank you all for your two cents on that snooping. I asked her this morning when we will talk about what that was and the look she gave me.. horrible.

I went to my office later to do some work and after lunch she came to me and gave me a letter.

Won't bore you with all the details, but the summary is

- She heard me few days back talking on Skype with my coworker (I got her the job, we have known each other for maybe 5 years and I would consider us "friends-coworkers") who is married to one of my friends. There is absolutely NOTHING going on between us, we have never texted or called outside work and have never met outside of our group

We were apparently joking about something regarding our job and my wife went full panic mode. The main point is she is scared I will leave her someone better who didn't stab me in the back and she started eavesdropping on me from time to time

- she admits it wasn't the first time she went through my phone and/or email

- she apologized and told me she knows it was wrong and it won't happen again. I can change passwords if I want

Another 3 paragraph long apology, sounded sincere and assurance she will do more and will go with what I want no matter what she would like to happen

She was out so I texted her Thank you for the letter and told her we will talk when she comes back.

It went good, great actually. She apologized again for inviding my privacy and assured me it won't happen again. I told her again there is nobody else and that I won't change anything and she can go through my phone anytime she wants since I have nothing to hide. The change in her is day and night so I guess crisis averted

[This message edited by MrFlibble at 7:35 AM, January 29th (Friday)]

Glad you both sorted that out.

I truly hope your plan to D & R works out for you and that you can create a new life together in whatever form suits you both.

I have read every word of this thread and I believe you have handled this amazingly well and the advice from the great people here has been invaluable to you making the decisions you have made, for you and your future.

I am rooting for you both. I can see that you love your wife, and feel you do not want her out of your life, so I hope she does everything possible to show you that she deserves you.

Keep strong MrF.

Its good that you both felt your way through that but the larger issue at hand that was not addressed is the lying.

You asked what she was doing with your phone. She lied

You asked if she was going through it again

She lied

Listen R is built on a foundation of complete and total honesty and if you dont start calling her out on it and hold her accountable for it then she will not change. Her first impulse regardless of the confrontation is to lie. You cannot R with someone who does this and isn't working to change it.

For many of us here it was not the A that did our Ms in but the continued lies and deception.

Of course you are there and I am not, but can you describe the good therapy is doing her?

What the actual improvement is?

She has been a lot more stable apart from here and there. The focus of her IC shifted from finding out why she did it to help her cope with the outcome (separetion and divorce). She has been a lot more calm since she started, especially around kids

You share IC's right? Does they know the timeline for the divorce filing? I'd be sharing my concerns with them. My guess is she's not going to do well alone. Any chance she can live with the sister until the divorce?

Yes, whe share the same IC. The outcome (divorce) is their now focus. I am in the process of buying her an appartment where she will live alone (1 week alone, 1 week with kids) but her sister has been visiting almost every day. Just to hang out and talk. She has been great help since the beginning

Does she know about this site?

Crap. I haven't thaught of that. I am the guy who closes everything on exit, but I guess she could find it if she went to my browser history. I know she had time to go through my phone through and through but she hasn't mentioned anything. No idea what to do now

She’s looking for something - maybe she sees a change in you.

Yes, she told me a few time she feels like I am starting to drift away. Maybe I am a little

RocketRaccoon No sex for us in near future. It's great (always has been), but it just complicates things too much

tushnurse, I couldn't agree more. Her lies were big chunk of her apology letter, I should made myself more clear when I wrote that. I told her I am hurt because I have been nothing but honest and what do I get in return? More lies.

Her explanatino was that she lied because she was sure if she told me the truth I would be hurt and mad and it would push away even more. We then again had a talk about how this attitude is damaging for any futur R and is the reason why we are where we are. I got the same answer when I asked her why she didn't come clean in the beginning. So I guess faithfulman is rignt, she is still the same person that cheated on me which is truly disappointing

[This message edited by MrFlibble at 8:35 AM, January 29th (Friday)]