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Yeah, you should apologize to her if you think you were in the wrong. It might confuse her into thinking you're apologizing for how you've acted/treated her since you discovered the affair, so be very clear about what you're saying sorry for.

That being said, it gives you a good chance to set an example to her on how to behave when you do something wrong, how to accept responsibility.

Despite your fighting, I think you're still doing really well.

[This message edited by MountainGuy at 2:47 PM, January 26th (Tuesday)]

She called you an Arschloch, Klootzak or Kreten/Dupek ?!?!?

Unbelievable!

We just had a huge fight and it was nasty. We had been both frustrated today (me from my job, her from kids that are sick) and I guess we took it out on each other. It started with her telling me I could be more of a help (I could) and no idea how we got there but I again accused her of sleeping with him given more time and opportunities to meet) and she called me an asshole. So I guess I am sleeping in guest room tonight.

Don't expect any advice or anything, just want to let you know that not everything is so great on a homefront. I should apologize to her, I was an asshole.

Of course I wasn't there, but I think it will probably be a mistake for you to apologize.

The emotions you are feeling and the anger you expressed are the natural fallout of cheating which she caused with her blatant disregard for you as a husband and simply as a person.

Suppressing it is damaging to you and it doesn't let her know what she has done.

And seriously, who is she to call you an asshole?

I am not saying you should not be honorable. However, cheaters always take advantage of their spouse's honor, decency, good nature,.... and trust.

***

Honestly, this soon after cheating, if the betrayed spouse goes through fits of anger, the right reactions from a truly repentant spouse are to:

1) Shut the fuck up and listen.

2) Apologize

3) Never be defensive or offensive (Calling you an asshole)

4) Show understanding of why you feel this way.

Don't cry in front of her, don't apologize for your justifiable feelings or suspicions. Like I said before, if there is one thing I would wager on, it is that you don't know the extent of her cheating, regardless if she fucked him or not.

Some people want to hold betrayed spouses to such high standards of behavior, when they have been crushed emotionally. I don't hold that point of view. It's natural to lash out.

***

Last thing. Stop using euphemisms like "sleeping with him" and definitely not "making love". You're softening her actions. Cheaters fuck. If they didn't fuck, they did whatever exactly they did, and refer to it as explicitly as that thing, don't allow her to characterize it as "fooling around", or "hanky panky" or anything like that.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 3:35 PM, January 26th (Tuesday)]

That’s why I’m saying to stop this charade of 1/2 separation. You need some extended time away from her to get your head straight. I don’t think the we can separate but date thing is going to work out.

You need to detox from her. The more you stay connected, the more HB will grab ahold of you. I was sucked in from HB and it has made my recovery much harder in the long run.

Don’t apologize. Just get your distance and stay there. Continue with your D in the meantime and assess how you feel in a month.

I should apologize to her, I was an asshole.

I guess if it makes you feel better you can. I think you have every right to be an a-hole and she needs to be willing to accept it until everything is resolved. YOU are the victim in this mess! Time apart will help clear your mind, I really don't think living together will help either of you right now.

MrFlibble, I know those fights well, I too was a complete asshole to my WW. It was a real problem for my wife and I. I would revert to affair venting when we fought, it did no good.

I started to walk away to cool off when we (mostly me) would get really heated. It helped to walk away for 5 minutes then re-engage. I apologized dozens of times for how I acted, but needed to change how I reacted so we could have “normal” husband and wife arguments without the A coming up.

Maybe she could have been helping more when she was texting with her boyfriend.

I understand how you may feel you weren’t at your best during the argument.

But she brought this into your life. And she needs to be able to apologize for it when you bring it up. As in “I’m sorry I caused this” or words to that effect.

It started with her telling me I could be more of a help (I could) and no idea how we got there but I again accused her of sleeping with him given more time and opportunities to meet)...

I just want to take a moment and disabuse you of the notion that everyone does that and that it's an acceptable way to treat a WS. Lots do, and most, like you, end up feeling bad about it afterward because it's NOT an acceptable way to treat anyone, not even a WS.

I never called my WH names. I never threw his affairs in his face during an argument about something else, and yeah, it was "affairs" plural, and he actually did fuck them, and often, during the nine months he was physically cheating on me. The point is this though, we're still ADULTS, regardless of the savage hurt we've endured. And when we behave in ways that don't become our dignity, we get mad at ourselves. I don't know about you, but I don't need the extra irritation of being angry at myself for being unable to control my tongue or my temper.

You've already levied your punishment for the EA. If D isn't satisfactory enough though, I think it might be good to ask yourself what you're achieving by doing it. Sorry if that sounds brusque. The intent is to be helpful. I think your plan of divorcing and then dating has a very small chance of success. To give it it's best shot though, I think you'll need to bear in mind that you've already taken your pound of flesh in the divorce. The whole idea being to clean the slate, yeah? So maybe this isn't the best example of communications going forward?

There's a nifty little article you can find online by typing into your browser "The Four Horseman John Gottman". In it, you'll find a discussion of four communications styles to avoid, and if you follow the links, ways to countermand them. It's brief but powerful and can be a great starting point for getting communications where you need them to be.

Thank you all. What I said was uncalled for and I shouldn't have said that. I need to find a way how to cope better, I will bring it up in IC tomorrow.

Last night I was sitting there gathering myself to go to her and apologize but she came first crying and apologized before I had a chance. We talked until like 2 am when the younger one woke up and we slept in our bed together. This morning's been great and we promised each other it won't happen again. We were both very emotional which obviously led to something, but kids were faster which was probably for the better, since we agreed that sleeping together is not the best idea no matter how much we want to. I am afraid it might (it probably already did) cloud our judgement and get us off our path forward.

Also I am going away for 10 days next month (military exercise) which should give us both some breathing space. Hope my finger will be allright by then (it should) so I can shoot the shit out of stuff

I again accused her of sleeping with him given more time and opportunities to meet) and she called me an asshole. So I guess I am sleeping in guest room tonight.

What I said was uncalled for and I shouldn't have said that.

What you spoke was the truth. The truth is always called for.

True story. Anyone that speaks the truth is labelled an asshole. Few want to hear the truth and fewer still want to accept it.

There is nothing false about what you said. Given more time and opportunity your wife would have taken the affair further.

You have nothing to apologize for. You didn't have an affair and end the marriage. You didn't betray her, she betrayed you.

We had been both frustrated today (me from my job, her from kids that are sick) and I guess we took it out on each other. It started with her telling me I could be more of a help (I could) and no idea how we got there

The argument smacks of a clumsy power play. A wayward trying to regain the higher ground/ control of the relationship. Your wife has no bargaining power or power period at the moment.

Cheaters don't care to suffer consequences. Your wife feels unfairly persecuted for her poor choices and would like to balance the scales. That is the motivation for her picking the fight. That is why you have no idea why the fight occurred.

This will not be the last such argument.

If you have the means I would suggest you hire a private investigator to keep watch over her activities while you are away for the 10 days. Would also recommend you purchase a few voice activated recorders to leave at home and in your vehicle.

Trust but check.

If you sincerely desire reconciliation over divorce you and your wife both will need to learn to accept the truth.

Truth - your wife chose to have an affair for no other reason than she could and she wanted to.

Truth- she hurt you deeply. This doesn't heal overnight or even in a few months. It will take years assuming you can get over it at all.

Truth - your wife ended and opened up the marriage with her affair.

Truth - your wife doesn't care for the consequences or your anger/outbursts. Too bad she chose this course.

Truth - you have every right to be angry. She has none. You didn't chose this (the affair), she did.

Truth - your wife has to earn her place at your side, not the other way around.

Truth - you gave your wife the gift of reconciliation. She didn't earn it. Like anything of great value given freely, it is little cared for until it is lost.

Give yourself a little credit. You have been more than fair and even tempered considering what she has done. Your wife has many hard years of work ahead of her. Don't be too quick to give her credit or offer her forgiveness. Don't be too quick to trust. Don't make the error of assuming this cannot happen a second time. Lighting strikes twice in nature and cheaters are far more consistent in their efforts to stray.

You have years of healing ahead. Many more dark days to survive. If at some point it becomes a burden you have no desire to carry, then leave without guilt. You already gave your wife your best and it wasn't enough for her to stay loyal. What is there left for you to give to her that you already haven't?

All the best going forward.

Just got some pretty good news on OM's front and I couldn't wait to share. Remember when I said I have slight chance of ruining his next job offer? I guess he dug his own grave.

I let their HR know through my contact there what hapenned and why was he fired from his previous position. I just heard back from my contact who apparently lives for this kind of drama.

Long story short - He told them he was fired because of layoffs that transpired there and presented them with great letter of recommendation from his former boss. This pushed them to check his story, obviously. So apart from his now pretty obvious lies he absolutely FORGED the letter, with signature and all. Nobody aparently bothered with checking his story before or haven't gotten to it yet, no idea. But the result is pretty sweet - SH obviously won't work there, his former boss was informed of this and is looks like he might get sued. I knew he wasn't the smartest one around, but hell, this is a completely another level of stupid. Felt like shit yesterday but now I am floating. I guess I have a vindictive streak after all.

Great news.

but I again accused her of sleeping with him given more time and opportunities to meet) and she called me an asshole.

Since this is the only thing that you specifically mentioned that you said in the heat of the argument and I don't know if you actually said anything else that would be worse, I will say from the quote above you have nothing to apologize for. I don't see you calling her names here or making accusations that are unfounded.

I agree with the previous poster above that what you spoke was the truth. Even if the truth hurts to the person that speaks it, it doesn't make it something worth apologizing for. Almost every cheater would have done more if they had not been found out. And it's reasonable to suspect that your wayward wife would be no different. That you have been put in a position to even have to say it is something that a cheater should be apologetic about.

I agree that we should not slide into some unacceptable character that is below us or demeans us. But when I reflect only on what you posted that you said, there is nothing I find uncomfortable about it and frankly I would find it uncomfortable to apologize for saying it.

It is not uncommon when cheaters lies are exposed that they make claims of being belittled or verbally abused. When I was going through this process many years ago, it was common for my wife to claim unfairness and even abuse when she found herself in a corner in which the only place she could turn was the ugly truth. No nasty words, no verbal assaults, no calling names, simply demanding acknowledgment of the truth.

For what it is you posted that you said, I would never apologize. It is an ugly truth, but it is the truth. and you will find that only when she comes to own that truth to the degree that she would never consider you an a****** for saying it, is when she will be safe.

Looks like some of you (or people on LS, sorry don't remember) were right regarding my wife when it all becomes real. After today's IC session I felt great and decided to set thing realy into motion.

We were preparing dinner, all was great, lots of laugh and banter. She asked me what's the reason so I told her my IC went great and I fell like we are in a good place right now and I want us to keep moving forward. So I asked my wife when's the best day next week for us to go visit our lawyer and sign the division of assets and child custody as we agreed on before in order to file for divorce next month. The moment I said that her face completely dropped and she started to literally beg me to no do this. We can do it, I don't want a divorce, please don't do this. Then she just started apologizing again and again and we got nowhere.

I don't want to be an ass, but I thought we made some progress and she knew what is coming and why. I didn't want to upset her more, so I just let it go today but I told her it is hapenning and she needs to find a way how to come to terms with it. I am here and I am ready to talk it through and through, but I am not standing down. Divorce is hapenning. Period. I reminded her that divorce is a nonnegotiable condition of future reconciliation and if she won't cooperate on this I am afraid we are over.

[This message edited by MrFlibble at 1:36 PM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

I can't belive how emotionaly draining this is. It feels like getting bearhug from 400 lbs guy. I have no idea how some other BS who have it worse than me can do it.

We were preparing dinner, all was great, lots of laugh and banter. She asked me what's the reason so I told her my IC went great and I fell like we are in a good place right now and I want us to keep moving forward. So I asked my wife when's the best day next week for us to go visit our lawyer and sign the division of assets and child custody as we agreed on before in order to file for divorce next month. The moment I said that her face completely dropped and she started to literally beg me to no do this. We can do it, I don't want a divorce, please don't do this. Then she just started apologizing again and again and we got nowhere.

She's getting mixed messages. You're telling her you want to divorce, but still having sexual relations, still having friendly interactions, and still talking about reconciliation. And yeah, you've got one guy saying that it worked for him. But that doesn't mean it will work for you or for everyone else.

No one was more surprised than me to realize that I was open to R after my WH cheated on me. He'd gone on a Craigslist binge, multiple sex partners and various levels of emotional attachment. I came out of the gate on DDay swinging for the fence on divorce after 30 years of marriage. I was DONE. And I meant it. It wasn't a game or a tactic. We had reached THE END. It was all he could do to slow me down and to prove to me that he wanted to stay. And he fucked it up a bit at first with a broken contact. But after that, he pulled out every stop to prove he was serious, up to and including changing jobs and moving us out of state, quite a feat late in one's career.

Being open to R was really scary. For awhile, you can sit on the fence but eventually, you have to commit to one side or the other. Even then, it feels like you've got one foot out the door, like you can't believe the audacity of your own decision. But, I'm a woman of my word and when I say I'm going to try, then try I will. What that meant was an early recognition that Punishment and Reconciliation aren't compatible. You can do one or the other, but not both. If you try to do both, you're not just hurting your WS, you're hurting yourself. When you are committed to your marriage, hurting your partner hurts the marriage and splashes back on you. It was true when our spouses cheated, and it's true in our response to the infidelity. And that's the ugly truth about Reconciliation... that the cheater "gets away with it". We might insist that they make internal changes to their character and mindset and we might set tough boundaries, but when we take them back, we're doing it with the intent to return to healthy equality in partnership. So, early in R, the WS might start off in the one-down, but eventually, once they've proved themselves, they're allowed back in full, like the cheating never happened.

For some people, that's a deal-breaker. They can't imagine having a full-on, equal partnership with a person who has betrayed them in the past. And that's okay. No cheater is owed a second chance. But for people who choose R, we have to be able to eventually come to a point where we can write off that debt as uncollectable. There's no way a WS can repay us for the pain they've caused. The adultery happened and it can't be undone. It's unfair, but everything about infidelity is.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish in relationship with your STBXW. You seem to think that you can divorce her and keep her at the same time, and I'm not sure that works for everyone, or that it's even healthy. From her POV, divorce is punishment, and one assumes that after a punishment, the slate is cleaned and the miscreant has repaid their debt to society. Maybe that's what you're going for, a method which allows you to clean the slate and start fresh? But punishments hurt. They're designed to hurt. You've put your partner in a permanent one-down with some nebulous notion that maybe, someday, if she holds her mouth just right, she might regain equal standing within the relationship. You've taken her home and you've taken her children, and even though she feels really bad about the emotional infidelity, she's going to remember that she didn't even fuck anyone, even if you don't remember it. Seems like quite a bit of fodder for future resentment, and resentment kills relationships. Like I said, you can't hurt your partner without hurting yourself.

No one can fault you for wanting a divorce. It's your right. But I think you're taking bad advice in terms of what your expectations should be afterward. I think your chance of success on your current course is very small, very small. If I was your WW, I might be slow on the uptake from the mixed signals, but once I really figured out that the relationship was unsalvageable, I'd be done trying.

MrF

First of all your wife cheated and if it’s a deal breaker then you have every right to D. And if you then want to try and rebuild after that then that’s your prerogative.

I am glad you recognized that while you are living together you both share responsibility for the kids and the household. And if you feel you have fallen down on doing that recently then it’s ok to specifically apologize for that. Life does go on even during recovery from infidelity. Responsibility doesn’t just go away.

That said, it’s understandable your W wants to fight for the marriage. And you have made your stance clear. And it’s also to let her know that if you truly are important to her and she really wants a life with you, then she will show it by how she handles the opportunity you will be giving her after D is completed.

I hope she steps up. Her actions and poor choices have led you to this situation and she should not be blaming you for it. She only has herself to blame if if she cannot realize that, then you will find out soon enough that she’s not a candidate for R. It’s ok to let her know that too.

Best of luck.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 3:16 PM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

I completely disagree that D is "punishment", I see D as a CONSEQUENCE of her huge betrayal, will it hurt her ? probably but again she took that risk the second she decided to cheat, god knows it hurt you too, plus she does NOT have to accept your proposal and can simply say no and go back to her boyfriend or find someone else.

By filing for D now you are PROTECTING yourself financially, emotionally and getting child custody resolved 100%, should R fail for any reason, all you or her have to do is say "It's over" and that would be it, this is not like a post-nup left to the discretion of of a judge who may or may not enforce it, a D is Final but doesn't prevent you to dating her again (like you're about to do if she agrees to your terms) or even re-marry again in the future (with or without a pre-nup).

After her huge betrayal, she should consider herself "LUCKY" that you're even offering the possibility to R after D, you could simply D anyway and not date her at all, in fact most WS don't even get the chance to R after D.

I don't want to be an ass, but I thought we made some progress and she knew what is coming and why. I didn't want to upset her more, so I just let it go today.

And this is how the game is played by a wayward. One small victory over you at a time. You aren't an ass. Your wife chose to have an affair because she wanted to and could. You did nothing to encourage this. You have every right to make demands and be angry. Every apology you offer, every time you relent and give her room to breath you give her confidence to carry on as she has been doing until she gets her way.

If your wife was truly remorseful and a candidate for reconciliation she would own her poor choices and accept that you require the divorce for your own healing.

What has she offered you instead? Resistance, empty promises. Bjs and sex, not as a show of her genuine affection but to cloud your judgment and keep you invested in the marriage. To avoid the consequences for her selfish choices. Manipulation.

I would reference you to back to her argument about you not being helpful about the home. It is her attempt to shift some blame, any blame to you that she can in an effort to gain some leverage over you.

You are emotionally drained. Friend your battle has not even begun yet. Do you know why you are drained? You want only to see the best in your wife because you love her. She knows this and will continue to use your feelings against you. She will also continue to ply you with sexual favors to cloud your judgment. She will use any and every tool of manipulation, subtle or otherwise. At least until she realizes you will not yield on the matter of divorce. Then you can expect her to turn nasty and combative. You can continue to press forward giving your wayward wife every consideration to minimize her emotional pain. You will do so your own expense.

Rest assured all that she will do going forward is only calculated in her best interest, not yours. She had her selfish interests in mind when she pursued her affair. She had no second thought or consideration to any fallout or consequences if caught. Do you know why? She didn't expect to get caught. She firmly believes her hold over you is strong enough to talk or manipulate you to get her way either to hide her affair or deal with the aftermath/ rug sweep and forgive.

You don't know how others worse off than you move forward - Yes you do. You want the divorce and you will not bend or break on this point. Continue forward one firm step in front of the next. Avoid sex with her going forward. She isn't offering it to sincerely bond with you, she offers it to create doubt within you to cause you to hesitate to do what is in your interest. If she is upset with your choices that's too bad. She chose this course and the consequences will apply.