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Very stressful times my friend. If you were an asshole, then yes apologise; but also explain that there is still uncertainty in her time line.

One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 9:15 PM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

I'm not a big fan of the D as a path to R, but understand how it removes some of the confounding factors from clouding the decision. I think one of the best truths on these forums is to save the marriage both parties have to be willing to let it go. Only then will they do what needs to be done to heal themselves first, which is a mandatory prerequisite for the marriage to be saved. I just don't think that divorce is required to do so, but that's not my call. FWIW I divorced my WW immediately, but I knew the commitment wasn't there on her part.

How is her IC going?

How far along is she to working out the complete why?

Will she have a healthy support system once she is out? You know she is broken. Probably much worse than you expect.

As far as I can tell MrFlibble, you've been wanting to believe that your wife is truly remorseful and making progress.

She isn't making much progress if any. You have to understand the mindset of a cheater is incredibly self-centered.

What matters to the cheater is what is happening to them. This has never been about honoring her marriage, you as her husband, or what it would do to your family.

This affair she conducted was all about satisfying her needs and urges, without any care for what it meant to you, even if you never found out.

The cheater guy is a true scumbag, and I am so glad you are sticking it to him - which is absolutely the right thing to do, because it lets him experience consequences. If it were me, and I knew who the other 4 women were that he was having affairs with, I would let the women know they are being quintuple-timed, and I would alert their husbands/boyfriends too.

And by the way, there is a good chance that one of those husbands or boyfriends would not be as civil as you have been towards that walking piece of garbage that the AP is.

But here is the thing: He didn't make your wife cheat. And he is not magic. He just takes a volume-based approach to hitting on lots of women to find out which one is ripe - meaning "willing" to join him in an affair.

There is no affair without your wife's complete willingness to betray you and your family for her own selfish purposes.

***

Step back and place your interactions with her since you confronted her in the same frame as her cheating - doing what she wants to get what she wants: She lied and denied, She deleted, she has minimized (I promise you), she has omitted significant facts (I promise you), then when all that didn't work, she flipped and played along, she cried, she pussy-bombed you, she agreed to certain conditions, the she went back on that, she, she, she...did none of it for you. This has always been about her wants.

Progress is not made that fast, I am sorry. What she wants is what she has been important to her for all this time until the moment you have read this.

Before, she wanted the attention of an outside man. Now, she wants to not lose her life, family, and reputation because of her choices.

She wants to not be in trouble anymore. She wants you to stop mentioning her betrayal. She wants to go back on her agreements.

When a self-centered cheater is in this state, you cannot trust anything they say. They will say ANYTHING - to get what they want - except the whole, unfiltered truth, because that is likely to drive away the betrayed party.

I don't think you have the whole truth yet. I think the whole truth is worse than you think, though perhaps not as shockingly ugly as some other stories around here.

I think you have made a mistake by believing she has told you the truth backed by a scant amount of evidence, and trying to build from there, by not polygraphing her, by not making the truth the absolute central factor around which you can even begin to reconcile. And that takes time to achieve.

When cheaters get to hold onto their lies, they get to hold onto the central character flaws that led them to cheat in the first place.

If you still want to reconcile with her, it is time to reset and grill the living Christ out of her as to the extent of her betrayal. I wish you would abandon the principles that are stopping you from getting the truth. They are not helping you. You are stressed and in pain.

Know this: the truth will either set you free or keep you together.

Could not agree more with faithfuls response.

I think you have dealt with your situation very well from the beginning.

I must say that I am generally on the D side about these infidelity issues. But as said it before, of the many cases I have read here, this is the only case where I felt sorry for the WW as well as BH. I think your WW showed real remorse, according to what you wrote of course.

Some comments seemed to me exaggerated and stereotyped.

I think her reason for not wanting D is the fear of not reuniting after, although you said that you will try to R. It would be much easier in a M. This fear is normal, her reactions doesn't seem manipulative or something like that to me.

As I said above I am generally on the D side but if someone considers R, they must admit from the beginning that they cannot change what happened.

The only thing I can offer you is polygraph. I know your opinion on this and it seems like you know the whole truth but I still think you need to make sure. Other than that, I think you did everything well.

I don't think your wife will come to a compromise. I don't think your wife is too smart and will give up easily. I have written a long article and will post it here tomorrow.

but also explain that there is still uncertainty in her time line.

What uncertainty do you mean? Honest question

How is her IC going?

Good from what I heard. But it's still too early to tell I think

How far along is she to working out the complete why?

No idea, I wonder if she will ever know herself why she did it. I don't think that there is a list of whys, there were many factors at the time. But short answer is that she wanted to and was able to. That's it.

Will she have a healthy support system once she is out? You know she is broken. Probably much worse than you expect.

Her sister is her closest person besides me and she's been great help. To both of us, emotionaly and from practical standpoint. Yes, my wife is broken and I think many of our struggles after Dday stem from it

faithfulman, Wow, thank you . I will take what you wrote to my heart, lots of truth in there. I told her today that I feel like I am the one who does all the work while she's just rolling in the mess she had made andbinstead of doing her part she chooses to wallow in self-pity.

I take it you don't belive I have the full picture of happened. Why do you think that? Because of what I wrote about all this or from your experience be it personal or from various infidelity sites?

And do you believe that pushing her more would give me more new previously hidden facts? But how do you prove something that didn't happen? I admit if I didn't see the messages I woudn't believ for a second they didn't have sex.

As for our last argument, she came to bed earlier, apologized and told me the reason she doesn't want to divorce is that she's scared shitless that if we divorce it will be the end. Of everything. So I guess guvensiz is right there. I told her again that if she wants this to work out she needs to adhere to terms we agreed upon and yes, the possibility of this not working out is pretty high but that's a situation SHE created with her actions. I told her I won't back down from this a I gave her time till yesterday's (more like today's since it's 2am here) evening. Then I want her decision if she's in or out.

She went to sleep to bed with kids and I will try to do some work since I am a lot behind. This is taking so much of my energy it's insane.

And this I forgot

The cheater guy is a true scumbag, and I am so glad you are sticking it to him - which is absolutely the right thing to do, because it lets him experience consequences. If it were me, and I knew who the other 4 women were that he was having affairs with, I would let the women know they are being quintuple-timed, and I would alert their husbands/boyfriends too.

And by the way, there is a good chance that one of those husbands or boyfriends would not be as civil as you have been towards that walking piece of garbage that the AP is.

Agreed, it was a good feeling while it lasted. All the other four husbands were informed, by SH's EXGF on Christmas day. One of the husbands apparently beat him up so he ended up in a hospital few days after. I heard about it from his ex, not many details but she said it was spectacular.

My first thought was to beat the living piss out of him (obviously), but after the initial anger dwindled I realized he is not worth the trouble. But if I met him even now I can tell what would happen

As for our last argument, she came to bed earlier, apologized and told me the reason she doesn't want to divorce is that she's scared shitless that if we divorce it will be the end.

She needs to let the marriage go if there is any hope for it to survive. Her fear of losing it is distorting her actions and consuming energy that needs to be used to fix herself.

Glad she has the sister. The brokenness was there before the A. It was just hidden, and a major piece of the true why. Because she wanted to is no closer to a truth than he seduced her. Unbroken people don't do nuke their families for cheap affirmations. She needs to fix that brokenness if nothing else to be the best mother to your children as possible.

[This message edited by grubs at 7:57 PM, January 27th (Wednesday)]

Brother

My reference to doubts in her time line is that if you still feel she could of had sex with him; then she hasn’t addressed this enough to sway to to be positive in your subconscious that she didn’t Have sex with him. I fully understand that you have stated that she didn’t, but if subconsciously you question this and bring it up in a heated discussion then it hasn’t been addressed sufficiently.

One day at a time.

[This message edited by Buffer at 4:34 AM, January 28th (Thursday)]

Remember when I said I have slight chance of ruining his next job offer? I guess he dug his own grave.

Am guessing the area your WW and SH worked in has something to do with Compliance/Auditing.

In that sector, integrity is paramount, and things like that will get around like wildfire.

He is obviously not very smart like you said; lying, and then forging a signature... he just eviscerated his own professional reputation.

I take it you don't belive I have the full picture of happened

Yes, that is correct, I don't believe you have the full picture. Caveat: You will never get the complete picture, but you need the full picture.

It appears you have certain boundaries that once crossed - game over. Fucking someone outside your marriage being one of them, but my guess there are acts and behavior short of that that are also dealbreakers.

You need to know what is being held back.

Why do you think that? Because of what I wrote about all this or from your experience be it personal or from various infidelity sites?

All of the above:

- My own personal experience in my life

- My own personal experience observing infidelity in others.

- Reading countless stories on infidelity forums and seeing that cheaters resort to the same tactics over and over.

- And finally, somethings about the story you wrote doesn't add up (As it pertains to your wife) Sorry, I can't go back through your epic posts right now, but maybe you can pull out "the story" your wife has told + the facts you now a tad more succinctly and I can tell you what sounds fishy.

One red flag was the getting in the car with him. Nobody gets in a car with the person they are cheating on to hold hands and smooch. Maybe they didn't go all the way in the car, but lots of things can happen in a car.

And I bet she had more opportunities to share time with him in his car.

Also, lots of things can happen in lots of places. I don't think you have that full picture. Whatever it is, your wife will take the full picture to her grave if you allow it.

The question is: Can you continue with her, while not knowing what you don't know?

+++

Counseling: I would bet that your wife is feeding the therapist a load of horseshit and the therapist is nodding his/her head and validating her rationaLIESing her behavior with "I can see why you felt that way" and "Have your husband's behaviors improved since this incident?" and "He should not accuse you of fucking this man! Don't accept that from him." (And then she calls you and asshole for expressing your feelings.)

Therapist very rarely hold people truly accountable, let alone cheaters. They all too often provide cover for cheater's and do not advise rigorous honesty. And no-quarter-given accountability is what cheaters have to face to truly improve themselves.

***

Let me say something, and it is offensive, but please accept my apologies up front.

Your wife is common. Cheaters are nothing but common liars. They do the same shit over and over. That's why so many of us can predict the sequence of events, from the denial, to the deleting, to the minimizing, to the pussy bombing, to the pushback on your expressing your hurt, to her not keeping her word.

You remember "The Rollercoaster"? Well this is the "Cheater's Playbook". They pull the plays from it chapter and verse.

And the number one play from the cheater's playbook is to lie, minimize, and omit.

Maybe what she is holding back is minor and stupid. Maybe it is probably a dealbreaker (I lean this direction)

But hold back she will. Because that is what cheaters do, and by definition, cheaters do not have the character to do the uncommon thing: show courage, come clean, face the consequences.

Your wife may not be cheating anymore but she is still a cheater. She cannot even adhere to the deal she agreed to. She can't help herself from fighting with you even though she has no leg to stand on.

****

If it were me, I would stay in counseling for myself to keep my self esteem up and let out my feelings (Some therapists actually do this well) and get her out of counseling because she is guaranteed to not be utilizing it to really help herself and you don't want a snake in your garden.

Make her to read all the books: Not Just friends, cheating in a nutshell, how to help your spouse heal from the affair.

Make her write everything down again, in excruciating detail, and tell her she better not leave anything out because this is going to be polygraphed. (Even if you aren't even though you should)

See what else shakes loose. See what else contradicts her earlier statements. Cheaters can't keep their lies straight.

And if you ever do take her to the polygraph examiner, be ready for more truth to come out the night before and on the way.

***

And I hope I am wrong about everything I just wrote.

[This message edited by faithfulman at 1:24 AM, January 28th (Thursday)]

Agreed, it was a good feeling while it lasted. All the other four husbands were informed, by SH's EXGF on Christmas day. One of the husbands apparently beat him up so he ended up in a hospital few days after. I heard about it from his ex, not many details but she said it was spectacular.

Good! I don't advocate violence, but fucking people's life partners is asking for trouble, and honestly, often the consequences are a lot worse than an ass-kicking and a few days in the hospital.

The reason folks are questioning the timeline is 99% of the time they lie and leave out details or minimize. I think you understand how overwhelming those odds are so all that matters is how comfortable you are with that story. It sounds like you are, and that’s perfectly fine.

She came to me this morning looking like shit. She told me she spent the whole night crying and told me she doesn't want to divorce because it would mean we are over and she doesn't want that. She knows this is all her fault but she loves me and she will fight.

I was done at that moment, so I said I am done with doing all the work and fighting her on almost every step, that she has until 5pm to arrange that meeting and signing and if she won't I am done and I will file for contested divorce no matter how long and horrible the process might be and that any chance of any future R is off the table. Forever. And I took girls to kindergarten and left

She called me in tears 20 minutes later and said it's next Wednesday at 10.

I think I have been too soft on her and idecisive and this mess is partly my fault. No more

Because it was the route that I took, and it was a good choice for me, I am one of the few that support using D as a part of the R process.....but there are concerns I have with your scenario.

When I made my requirement to my then fWW that I would not consider R unless we D'd, I was not still fucking her. That would have, in my view, screwed the whole process up. Sent way too deeply mixed messages, messed with both of our heads, etc.

I had made peace with the " you have to be willing to lose it to save it" premise, and I think she had as well. She wanted R very much, but the 6 months of shit hitting the fan, anger, pain, lies, manipulations, was a backdrop that she could not ignore. She knew we were in trouble. Had I been having lovey dovey talk with her, having sex, talking about who is responsible for what around the house, etc, I would imagine it would have made the concept very difficult for both of us.

I don't get the sense that your WW has witnessed the full measure of the pain and anger and betrayal that she is responsible for. I think the talk of who is not doing enough around the house and still having sex and sleeping together in your shared family home bedroom is way mixed signals.

When I suggest D is an option to R, I mean D as in the real deal D. My fWW knew there was no guarantee of R in my conditions. But there was an honest and sincere commitment from me that R would be my focus, for as long as she was R worthy, doing the work, becoming safe in how she viewed what she did, etc.I don't see that you and your WW are in sync on where you are in the process and how D fits into the short and long term and the rules of engagement for using D as a path to possible R.

I may be reading things wrong.

MrF, I was writing my last post as you were writing yours. After reading yours, I think this is the key:

I think I have been too soft on her and idecisive and this mess is partly my fault. No more

If you embrace this, act like you are D'd and not appearing to be in then out then in, resist intimacy and sex while in this process, at least n the early stage, you might be on the right path to R.

MrF. Please don’t blame yourself for anything. We know you are doing your best.

You are like many betrayeds here. Kind snd supportive and caring. Things the cheater likes to exploit. My H was the same as your cheating wife which is why and how I spent months in false reconciliation (he was still lying and cheating).

I’d like to give you a suggestion if I may. Feel free to stop reading (lol).

Stop telling your wife what to do in terms of recovery and reconciliation. I can tell you this from my experience and I know every marriage is different. But his worked for me.

I believe if the cheater has enough creativity snd “smarts” to cheat they have the same abilities to figure out how to repair the damage. On their own. And if they don’t — then they are not “all in” to fixing the marriage.

A five year old will tell you - google it. I’m certain cheaters can do at least that.

I recommend betrayeds do not lead recovery and/or reconciliation. Because then you have a child instead of an equal partner.

I gave my H no support or encouragement during reconciliation. I was D him b/c I had nothing left for him or the marriage. He managed to turn it around on his own. And has been doing so ever since. Every day he finds a way to let e know me and our marriage are the most important thing to him.

It’s time for your wife to figure it out. If she can’t or won’t, then it’s best to know now your marriage is not a priority for her, rather than years from now.

I hope this helps you.

DIFM, you are absolutely right on all that. I admit I screwed up by sleeping with her. The only thing this accomplished was putting more confusion into this mess. It's not going to happen in a future. All those mixed signals and confusing messages were simply damaging to this process and we both know it. Do I regret sleeping with her? No I don't honestly. But it has to stop.

I had made peace with the " you have to be willing to lose it to save it" premise

My wife hasn't, at least not yet. Maybe today proves she's getting there, but who knows. I will probably talk to her about this. Again

I wouldn't call us lovey-dovey, more like civil. We have a big house and two small children so putting a screeching halt to our lives in not an option I am afraid. We still have dinners to make, house to clean and kids to take care of.

When I suggest D is an option to R, I mean D as in the real deal D

I know it doesn't look that way, but in few months this all will be very real. I am getting close to finalising of buying that appartment, she will absolutely move out (without a question) and once the divorce is final we will see where we are and go from there. Any kindo of lovebombing or using sex as a way to lure me back in won't work anymore. I have seen what it did to us and I am pretty sure her stance on a divorce is nice example of why all that was a horrendous idea.

If you embrace this, act like you are D'd and not appearing to be in then out then in, resist intimacy and sex while in this process, at least n the early stage, you might be on the right path to R.

That's the plan. I know we said "no strings" and "it doesn't have to mean anything".. but you know. I can't belive how stupid I was to let this happen

The1stWife Thank you so much. It means a lot to me especialy on this day. I already told her today I am done with being the one who pushes this cart anymore. Yes, she did lots of work earlier but I feel like since I let her back in she just.. I don't know, felt too secure? Too secure to step down from what we agreed on before, thinking I will let it go? Wrong idea on her part.

Now it's up to her to do all the heavy lifting if she wants to have a chance for any kind of future. That part about the WS being a child is a direct hit. That's exactly what this feels like sometimes.

Am guessing the area your WW and SH worked in has something to do with Compliance/Auditing.

Yes, it's one of these two. I don't think he will ever be able to work in that field anymore. My wife is not as stupid as he is, she didn't even tried and went for something else (but still banking/finance)

I take it you don't belive I have the full picture of happened

Yes, that is correct, I don't believe you have the full picture. Caveat: You will never get the complete picture, but you need the full picture.

It appears you have certain boundaries that once crossed - game over. Fucking someone outside your marriage being one of them, but my guess there are acts and behavior short of that that are also dealbreakers.

You need to know what is being held back.

I will never get the complete picture. Ever. I can probably live with that. It might be intentionaly, or not. But the picture I have feels like enought to make a decision. And I did make a decision - to D with a possibility of starting over. Possiblity, not a guarantee.

I honestly don't think there is anything she's holding back, what I know is backed by their texts and I believe if it went further it would be discussed. If we want to be explicit, it went as far as his hand in my wife's knickers for a few seconds. Kind of a grey area and probably something I can get over. She left after few seconds and the messages back this up actually.

One red flag was the getting in the car with him. Nobody gets in a car with the person they are cheating on to hold hands and smooch. Maybe they didn't go all the way in the car, but lots of things can happen in a car.

And I bet she had more opportunities to share time with him in his car.

This might get lost while I transitioned from LS to SI, but he gave her a ride home few times. That's when the above mentioned incident happened. But again, I strongly believe the only reason why there were only two instances of anything physical was their inability to meet due to Covid. Given more opportunities it would be much, much worse.

I have no idea what is being said during her IC, but I don't feel like I am being blamed for her affair. Quite the opposite actually. Our counselor is not an issue here, I like her attitude. It was me who tried to take a blame in my first or second session and she put a stop to that. She told me her affair is my wife's doing and it has nothing to do with me. We are both responsible for the state of our marriage/relationship but the resolution to cheat is up to her.

Your wife may not be cheating anymore but she is still a cheater

Yes, it won't change, ever. She will be a cheater forever. Like if i kill someone and spend the rest of my life caring for eldery I am still a murderer. There are some action you simply can't take back, no matter how much you want. My wife's personal integrity took a hit and it's up to her to deal with that.

Your wife is common. Cheaters are nothing but common liars. They do the same shit over and over. That's why so many of us can predict the sequence of events, from the denial, to the deleting, to the minimizing, to the pussy bombing, to the pushback on your expressing your hurt, to her not keeping her word.

I actully said that a few weeks back, that I thought my wife was special, she would never.. and guess what. She did. So yeah, she's very special person but very common cheater.

And the number one play from the cheater's playbook is to lie, minimize, and omit.

Maybe what she is holding back is minor and stupid. Maybe it is probably a dealbreaker (I lean this direction)

If you will go back through this thread you will find those, it took me few weeks to get some minor info out of her but lots of it was give on her own. But as you said, omiting, lies and all that was there. It took her quite some time to understand how much this is damaging to a healing process

If it were me, I would stay in counseling for myself to keep my self esteem up and let out my feelings (Some therapists actually do this well) and get her out of counseling because she is guaranteed to not be utilizing it to really help herself and you don't want a snake in your garden.

We are both continuing with IC. As I said above, it's doing us both some good.

Make her to read all the books: Not Just friends, cheating in a nutshell, how to help your spouse heal from the affair.

Her english is not that good, so it might not have a impact I wish it had given that she would probably spend more time googling words than doing the real reading. But I know she bough two or three books on this topic in our language and I saw here hiding them last week. She told me she felt embarassed. No idea why.