SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Chamomile Tea has it right. The key at this point is how you feel about your WW. If the love is gone or diminished to such a degree that you want a divorce, do it with no strings. Move on and let her move on. If you need more time to decide, great, but no divorce. There are other avenues such as a trial separation that sound reasonable in your case. I am a BS and I certainly identify with everything you are feeling. But I just don't get what you are trying to do. It almost sounds like revenge/torture. You are not justified in doing that. You quickly lose the moral high ground in my opinion.

Try reading through a copy of What Makes Love Last?: How to Build Trust and Avoid Betrayal by John Gottman. Not only does he talk a lot about Trust, but he also covers the basics in his approach to marital harmony, where you'll see the importance of "turning towards" your partner. This kind of leaning in is the cornerstone of keeping a relationship healthy. From small everyday "bids" for attention to big life-changing events.

Anyway, the information on trust is also invaluable. I discovered many layers of trust, and found that even having answered in the affirmative questions like "has your spouse ever cheated?" and "do you think your spouse might cheat?, my trust metric for my WH was still quite high. I trusted my WH in so many other facets of our life together, to be fiscally responsible, to care for our children, to take care of me if I was sick, etc. Even though our trust is never quite the same, never the naive trust we had starting out, there's often still quite enough to build on. Divorce won't bring back your innocent trust. It can't because nothing can. But your new trust can be very comprehensive, albeit more demanding. I've found it to be a smarter, more intelligent kind of trust, even though we still grieve for innocence.

Anyway, check it out if you can. John Gottman takes a very scientific approach in his work, so I have a good deal more faith in his methods. He's not just spouting off his opinions like many so-called "experts" do. He's citing his findings in a laboratory type setting by testing his theories. You can find information online if you don't want to wait for the book. Try keywords like "turning towards + Gottman".

ETA: You might also try a copy of The Body Keeps Score by Bessel van der Kolk. The author is a trauma expert, arguably the best in the world at present. One of my biggest takeaways from this book was how very loosely the contact inside the brain of the prefrontal cortex (logic) and the amygdala (fight, flight, freeze). We can't talk ourselves out of trauma. Logic doesn't really penetrate the lizard brain. This stands true for the sense of panic and shock we feel while dealing with the abandonment of betrayal, but it's also going to stand just as true for the WS during the panic and shock of an unwanted separation.

What that means is that as you proceed towards D, your WW's logic isn't always going to be reliable. It's the amygdala which moves your foot to the brake of your car when you sense a possible collision. Typically, that foot is moving before you can logically describe the threat. And it's the amygdala which sends signals for the body to release adrenaline and cortisol in order to deal with that threat. Not to keep throwing books at you, but in The Journey from Abandonment to Healing by Susan Anderson, we learn that fear of abandonment is hard-wired into us from birth. It's what makes us cry when we can't sense our mother's presence... and it's what wrecks us when we're intimately betrayed. This fear of abandonment is hard-wired in your WW just like it is in you. It's a trigger to the amygdala, releasing adrenals, hormones, and panic. And her logic will always be one step behind, just like the prefrontal cortex is one step behind the amygdala while your foot is moving to the brake.

We're not only dealing with abstracts like human feelings, we're dealing in brain science. There's sooooo much room for error on your current path.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 7:32 PM, January 29th (Friday)]

Any idea hiw to find out if my W knows of this thread? I can't come up with any way how to ask her without spilling the beans.

Or should I tell her? I am on a fence. I want to be fully honest with her but on the other hand I don't want her to read what was said here.

I’m sure that the administrators could probably check to see if there are other people are checking out your thread from the same location as you, but only on another device.

Might be worth asking them if it is possible. But while im sure they would want to protect you, the betrayed spouse, they may not want to open up Pandora’s Box, and then have 10,000 other betrayed spouses ask for similar checks.

FYI, I for one think that you are doing exceptionally well dealing with everything she has done. I wish you nothing but the best of luck. Stay strong and continue to move straight out of the hell that she has put you in!

Camomile TeamYou are a very well learned person. Well said.

One day at a time.

Of course I wasn't there, here comes the "but" .. when you study something very carefully, you find spots to thin out and break.

I have to say, I admire your determination. Maybe your determination was your wife's breaking point.

A certain number of people who commit an act of infidelity see it as unable to fill the places in the eyes of their husband or wife.

But no one is indispensable.

Even some cheating people claim that committed the act of infidelity to fix their marriage.

I'm trying to write a book and I've reviewed almost all the forms and websites with cheating. I've spoken to people. I've been to some meetings for analysis.

Absolutely. She told me few days back that her affair had nothing to do with me or our marriage. And it just "didn't happen", it was premeditated and put together by thousand of liitle steps and little lies. But all this had been said here before many times so I see no point in repeating myself

A little excerpt from your wife's letter to you.

You asked me many times while I was at home with kids if I am happy with how things are and I told you I was. I wasn't. I was just too stupid to admit this to myself, let alone to you.

I'm attaching you an email written by the wife of another cheated man.

https://pasteboard.co/JM2w4A5.jpg

People use our goodwill, compassion and love. The world is now the world of such people.

But certainty is the argument of Fools. I can never say that the things I write about are certain or have happened this way.

I mean, only you can connect all the points. Breadcrumbs may lead you to the truth. Look at the coincidences in the story, they can lead you to the truth. The truth can only set you free.

I'm not a stupid guy. I know how much you love your wife and how much you still respect her.

A note I wrote to you in an article I wrote earlier but didn't publish.

Note To You :

------------------

Only love and sex are not enough for marriage.

Marriage requires loyalty, it requires commitment, it requires mutual sacrifice.

Whether your wife has sex or not, you feel cheated.

When your wife started cheating it just didn't cheat on you. She cheated on her children, cheated on her parents, cheated on everyone she loved.

And at that moment (when she cheated) she did not think of you or your children.

Now she has no right to shout or swear at you.

[This message edited by GiTaRiST at 11:27 AM, January 30th (Saturday)]

ChamomileTea I have to tell you, your posts kept me up until 4:30am. That leaning anology is strong, expecially with me and my wife since we have always been each others support columns before all this transpired. So.. thank your for that, I needed to hear it. And thank you all others too.

Kids are at my parents for a weekend and my wife basicaly hasn't left my side today and even though sex is off the table she is VERY affectionate and told me many times today how she is unbelieveably grateful that I am still here and how ready she is to do anything to help me heal and maybe one day to forgive her. I decided to be fully transparent with what's on my mind and even though I am sure it will bring even more confusion I expressed my doubts about that D->R scenario. She again repeated her promise to sign everything if that is what I want and apologized for her recent change of stance on this.

Then she came up with an idea of living separately for a few months withou filing which should give us both some time. For me to heal and find out if there is still a chance for us, or be 100% sure of my final decision to go throught with the divorece. And as for her - it would give time and space to work on herself and her issues which brought us here.

I would love to hear your idas on that because as much as I want to be sure of what I want I am apparently still far from that

PS She also started putting sticky notes with little messages and notes on every surface possible. I just found out one under my table. She even took my charger out of an outlet to make me crawl there. I love it

MrF,

Whether you D of not you and your wife are going to have lots of work to do if R is something you are going to want to explore. It takes years to heal from the pain of betrayal and rebuild trust as ChamomileTea describes. I’m not saying it can’t be done or shouldn’t be attempted. But you each have to recognize the long hard path back to happiness you each have in front of you.

I believe you love each other. And even with her awful choices I can still believe she is in love with you. So I can understand it being desirable to finding a way to have an amorous relationship again.

BTW, even if you don’t R you each still have a long road of healing ahead of you, albeit with potentially different work involved, so don’t think there is an easy way out.

There are valid reasons to D, whether or not R is your goal. If you have the need, and it’s a valid need, to demonstrably declare the old marriage dead, then that’s a valid way to do it. Or if you have the need for her to truly see the ramifications of her cheating, again it makes sense. Or if you want to ensure that you are financially secure before potentially trying to rebuild, that also is an important step and someday if desired can be coupled with a strong prenup if you decide to try your hands at marriage again.

But if you don’t yet fully have your head wrapped around the truly important reasons to D that resonate with you, a 4-6 month separation, with clear terms and boundaries, could be a good first step.

And in the end you may decide to proceed before truly starting to rebuild, or decide that it’s not going to work and living separate lives is the right way to go, or that you want to stay together, and find other ways to make you feel safe again and identify some real ramifications of the affair not related to D.

All paths are valid.

TBH, I still think finalizing the D now makes sense. I even say that as someone who sees reconciliation as something that you should both try to make happen and would encourage it.

To me, if you can easily agree to terms, getting those things out of the way will you allow you to focus on what is truly important. With D out of the way she can put her mind and fixing what was broken inside her, and on helping you heal without worrying about what is going to happen with financial support and parenting time. With that sorted out all that is left is her showing you that she is still the one for you, how she is going to make you feel safe, and express her desire for you.

And from your side you can focus solely on figuring out if you can live and fall in love with her again.

I’ve said often, and apologize if I already said this to you, much of that possibility lies on your pride in the work she does and that fact that she has only done that work for you and her and nobody else in the world. If she does it right, you can find love via that path. It’ll be different than the first love you grew based mostly on hormones. But it can be just as strong, and very more real.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 1:32 PM, January 30th (Saturday)]

A trial separation seems like a logical step in your case rather than rushing straight for divorce. From your posts, it sounds like your marriage was quite good before the affair, that you both cared much about each other, and that there was sincere love between the two of you. She now sounds extremely remorseful and desperate to stay with you. It is just so incongruous that she had this affair. My marriage sucked almost from day one and the decision to divorce was a no-brainer. Obviously, you know her much better than any of us. The question is whether you know her well enough to feel she can be a safe wife from this point forward. The second question is whether you can sufficiently get over the hurt and betrayal she caused. Two difficult questions to answer. Unfortunately, there are no do-overs and you won't know the answer to those questions for many years if you decide to stay. You also have the lives of two young children to take into account. You definitely need more time to decide what you want to do. Good luck and I wish you the best. This whole thing is very regrettable.

It's called love bombing

Trial separations are good for R if one or both partners are actively hurting the prospects for recovery. Say, one or both are incapable of controlling their temper and arguments become damaging due to violence or verbal abuse. What most people don't realize though is that the longer a separation persists, the greater the odds it will become permanent. There are only 4 possible outcomes, 3 of which lead to permanent separation:

1) Both partners miss the marriage and return to it.

2) Neither partner misses the marriage.

3) The wife misses the marriage but the husband doesn't.

4) The husband misses the marriage but the wife doesn't.

When both partners WANT to continue the marriage and in the absence of damaging abuse, trial separations create additional risk to the marriage.

ETA:

I decided to be fully transparent with what's on my mind and even though I am sure it will bring even more confusion

This is a good example of the "leaning in" we talked about earlier. Even though you weren't sure, you shared your concerns and the result is greater emotional intimacy. Chances are, you felt better, like you were heard and understood. Chances are equally good that she did too. You leaned in and gave her the opportunity to respond. And this is the scary work of R. Reinvesting emotionally with someone you now KNOW is capable of hurting you. It's terrifying, and yet weirdly soothing.

When it comes to infidelity, it's NORMAL to want comfort from the one who hurt you. You couldn't say that about a mugger who pistol whipped you at a gas station. But it's almost ubiquitous. We WANT the WS to understand and sympathize with our pain. And as we're making that emotional reinvestment in the relationship, we find ourselves feeling okay when we're together with our WS but angry and sad when apart. We end up experiencing separation anxiety during that reinvestment period. And that's okay, because it's temporary. The feeling dissipates as we continue to grow and become more secure.

In terms of whether to separate or not, these are some of the things you would miss during a separation; chances to "lean in" toward one another, opportunities for the WW to comfort you, the security of being able to see with your own eyes that your WS is still present in the relationship, and being able to measure her work ethic and progress in situ. These things build emotional intimacy and fortify your sense of security within the relationship. But what do you do about your fears? the fear that she might cheat again? that the new intimacy of your relationship won't last? that she'll hurt you.

What I've found to be the most helpful in my healing journey is a newfound sense of self-reliance. I got wrecked by my WH's adultery. I'm talking bug meets windshield wrecked. I had always thought of myself as a strong person, but emotionally, I found out that I was totally reliant on him. I had lost identity and meaning in my own life. This was an existential threat that I never saw coming. But... what I learned was to invest in ME. These days, I'm a complete person. I can't be damaged like I was before because I'm WHOLE. I'm not a half a person, dependent in every way on the other half for that feeling of completion. My fWH adds to my life experience, he doesn't cause it. I'm not saying to distance people, far from it. But these days, I fill my own cup first and find that I'm full enough to share with others. And I was able to accomplish that without separating. It's a change in focus, from all about him and what he did, to all about me and what I need to provide for myself.

In time, I was able to process my WH's betrayal and to "write off" the debt he owed me. And THIS is where you find "the clean slate". It takes time, and you don't do it until your WS has made the necessary internal changes and you KNOW in your soul that if they could take it all back, change everything they did which hurt you, they'd do it in a skinny minute. TIME is the healer. Time to observe the changes, time to grow in self-reliance, time to process the pain out of your mind and body. And it's okay to feel a little wobbly about all that because it's a lot to take in. Eventually, you realize that there's no way for your WS to pay you back for all the pain and anxiety they've caused, and you're able to write it off like you would an uncollectable debt. That's for further on down the pike though. Just saying, it gets better. I'm six years out, and I mostly don't even think about infidelity unless I'm here at SI.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 3:45 PM, January 30th (Saturday)]

I also agree that you should proceed with D then explore your options to R if she continues to do the heavy lifting to restore the M she killed with her huge betrayal.

Also keep in mind that typically and depending on where you live, the longer you are married the more spousal support-alimony she could be entitled to assuming you are the breadwinner or make much more money than her, if you decide to try R without D, check with your attorney, we have seen here where filing for D on time prevented lifetime alimony, better to double check if thats an option you ultimately decide to try.

I think the idea of divorcing as the first step toward any possible reconciliation. There was a couple here that did it when the wife cheated, I believe her username was MrsSouthAfrica.

As both her and her betrayed husband said, she was demoted from wife to girlfriend. I believe she recently posted an update announcing they either just got remarried or were about to be remarried.

Obviously your wife made a huge mistake and she realizes that. Some people don't think about the consequences until after the fact. I'm in between whether you should still go for divorce first as you want, or to hold off on divorce as what your wife would prefer. Your wife is trying her best to show you that she's sorry and asking for forgiveness. Divorce first then try to reconcile is workable. People has done it before. You can have her sign a pre-nup before marriage a second time if they offer pre-nup in your country. But your wife is afraid that once divorce you won't come back. Of course it's really up to you. What do you want to do.

Well to me the offer sounds quite reasonable.

Some will argue against it, others will support it. I just ask you to think about the inevitable, is it delaying the end result.

WW has a lot of work to do.

Some up the love bombing may be over the top, but it is making you feel good about yourself. Accept this.

One day at a time.

Careful with the Lovebombing.

It feels great when you are on the receiving end, but it can be a distraction from the real issues that need addressed.

Where was this amazing cute affectionate loving wife before she cheated on you? Where was she in the decision making process when your wife was making 10,000 separate choices to betray you.

She’s laying it on thick, and to her credit it seems to be working, but this isn’t some preview of how the rest of your life will be with her. This is her final act of love bombing to try to secure the stability and support structure she threw away, not an expression of her attraction to you.

Weekend went pretty well, nothing groundbreaking to report. Spent a lots of time alone with W but nothing too exciting. Lovebombing continues but I told her to tone it down and she did. Is any kind of contact (hugging, touches) off table too? No idea if I would like that but I know it needs to end if we want to have this separation and not some kind of weird combination of living together/dating/separation. It would not be good.

Also, W starts a new job tomorrow. I felt a slight jab a few times today, but nothing major. I was dreading this for some time but it's not as bad as I expected. I was repeatedly asked if I am OK with her going back to work and I am. What else is there to do? I want her to be able to stand on her own feet.

As for love between me and my wife.. it's still there. Absolutely. It shifted and shook and was replaced at times with all kinds of negative emotions but it always comes back. Is it different than before? Absolutely, and it probably will ever be.

We have an attorney appointment next week to sign papers on assets and child custody and we will do just that. But we won't already file for a divorce if that makes sense. The signed papers stay at the attorney and filing is a matter of a phone call. Don't take it as some kind of blackmailing or putting a pressure on my W to behave and have her sweating with this proverbial sword above her head because I see it as a opposite - it take some pressure away because we won't have to deal with this in case things go south or we decide we will go that D->R way because let's be real, it is still a possibility. All the arrangements are very fair considering what happened and why this is happening.

Other parts are going according to our original plan = wife starting a new job, buying new appartment (it's truly absurd since prices went up by 30% in last 2 years), she's moving there sometime in March since it needs some work to be done there and we are starting our unofficial separation from there.

You asked about the state of our marriage before all this and I have to tell you it had been going great until last year. The discontent grew silently and without being communicated and we let it grow and grow until it created some kind of environment where my wife felt like stepping out of our marriage and seeking what she felt was missing somewhere else. Again, don't take it as me taking a blame but more as a background for this horrible experience

We both felt some level of disconnection during those months, but it really went off the way sometime in May/June. Can't believe it's been more than 6 months already. The time really flies

Yes, all this will require a lot of work, a massive amount to be exact, but I believe we are both willing to put up a fight. For us, and for kids. They have been a main victims in this and even though we try and do what's in our power to shield them from everything they are obviously hit by all this a lot more than we know. Seeing your 5yo telling her younger sister "It's good, don't worry" really fucks you up more than you can imagine.

Also keep in mind that typically and depending on where you live, the longer you are married the more spousal support-alimony she could be entitled to assuming you are the breadwinner or make much more money than her

Not the case here. Spousal support is basicaly nonexistent concept and child support is a joke here. I would willing pay a lot more

Careful with the Lovebombing.

It feels great when you are on the receiving end, but it can be a distraction from the real issues that need addressed.

It sure does. But you are right, it clouds judgement and provides an easy way out of difficulties. It's like ordering a pizza saying "I will do the work tommorow." It provides a fast gratification, but all those problems are still there. But I admit it help a lot with creating some kind of connection that might got lost in all this. It sure did this to us. And it might sound weird, but it helped me with my mind movies but that might be partly because of the reality of my wife's betreyal was a lot, for a lack of other word "better", than what I imagined in my head

Sorry for a long rant, I will give you some time off from me now

I decided to be fully transparent with what's on my mind and even though I am sure it will bring even more confusion I expressed my doubts about that D->R scenario.

You are making an error being transparent with her. You freely give her the advantage she needs to work against you. She is not a safe partner to trust at the moment.

Previously you had mentioned you needed the divorce to heal in your own way. Rather than accept fault for her error and support you in the way YOU need She has done nothing but try to convince you otherwise. She works in her own best interest, not yours nor in the interest of your marriage.

Kids are at my parents for a weekend and my wife basically hasn't left my side today and even though sex is off the table she is VERY affectionate and told me many times today how she is unbelievably grateful that I am still here and how ready she is to do anything to help me heal and maybe one day to forgive her.

Nice of her to give you space - none at all. Cheaters make many promises and deliver on none of them. Your wife refuses to accept divorce as an option for you to heal.

Then she came up with an idea of living separately for a few months without filing which should give us both some time. For me to heal and find out if there is still a chance for us, or be 100% sure of my final decision to go through with the divorce.

You were already sure you wanted to divorce. You explained to her why. She in theory agreed thinking you could be persuaded to avoid it. What was her reaction when you asked her to schedule a day to sign the legal paper work? She was upset. She thought she had convinced you otherwise.

Would you like to know what will change in a few months time if you still decide to divorce her? Nothing. She will again become upset and unreasonable and she will try to bargain you down to avoid divorce. She will again stall and keep close to you. As for the separation how long do figure that will last practically?

my wife basically hasn't left my side today.

You can be certain that she will press to shorten the duration of the separation assuming she actually follows through with it. I do not see her relaxing her hold on you to be apart for any length of time. Her biggest fear is that you will leave and she will have no ability to attempt to influence this decision if you are both apart.

I understand why you are entertaining her thoughts and why you are sharing yours but it is folly. Your wife has already proved to you she is not trustworthy. Trust especially after it has been broken needs to be verified not given blindly or freely.

Your wife ended the marriage with her affair. She is not in a position to decide what is best for the marriage going forward. All she needs to do is comply with what you need. So far she has made a superficial effort to do so and resisted you on the matter of divorce right from the start. This dynamic will not change.

[This message edited by smolderingdark at 2:46 PM, January 31st (Sunday)]

I just read your post and I'm sorry you are going through this difficult time. I hope you can find peace with whatever you decide to do. Just remember you're not alone. Unfortunately marriage doesn't mean much to some people (my cheating husband included). Its even harder when kids are involved but at the end of the day life is short and you shouldn't waste it being unhappy. Good luck xx

Mr. F,

Regarding the sex issue, good that you are not letting your little head think, and hence muddy the waters further.

And I want to make one thing very clear. I love my wife, with all my heart.

It is obvious from your posts at you are still deeply in love with your WW, and nothing wrong with that. I would only caution you that it can blur your thinking and actions if you are not self-aware.

But she hurt me with the worst way possible and it's hard to get over that. It just is.

Again, a natural instinct is to lash out when you are hurt, and you would want to protect yourself. All normal on that front.

And I know we are BOTH hurting, and we are both confused and torn.

The confusion comes with major trauma, and this can make people do strange/stupid/irrational things.

So, now to get to the nuts-and-bolts of the matter; all the little love notes, playful flirting, sex (hopefully now stopped), etc, is great for a couple with a healthy M, maybe not so good for your current situation. It clouds the mind.

This goes for the signing of D papers, but then leaving it with your lawyers. This is one of the irrational things that the confused mind is doing.

Who would not think about the Sword of Damocles? Your WW would be walking on eggshells around you, you will feel some 'power' over your WW. The balance of the M is already askew, and with this, it further skews it.

So, you either execute the D papers, or you don't. Right now, your confused mind is giving mixed signals, and that is always bad news for both you and your WW.

You want to lash out by having the papers signed, but then say they will not be executed unless you give a phone call, which implies a threat. How is a M going to even start R with this threat?

I say this not to berate you, but hope that you can step back and re-look at what your actions are. Strip away emotions, and look at your situation with ice cold logic, so that you can have the best chance at achieving a desired outcome for you and your M, be it either R or D.