SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Any idea hiw to find out if my W knows of this thread? I can't come up with any way how to ask her without spilling the beans.

Or should I tell her? I am on a fence. I want to be fully honest with her but on the other hand I don't want her to read what was said here.

Her explanatino was that she lied because she was sure if she told me the truth I would be hurt and mad and it would push away even more. We then again had a talk about how this attitude is damaging for any futur R and is the reason why we are where we are. I got the same answer when I asked her why she didn't come clean in the beginning.

You need to be crystal clear that it's the lies that will kill any chance going forward. She has to give up any future relationship to have one and that's scary because she knows she really doesn't deserve it. The divorce might help especially if the IC helps her make it real and not just a fake one along the way to the reconciliation.

She needs work with the IC to figure why she lies. How that is toxic to any relationship never the less one with infidelity. She needs to move to healthier responses to her anxieties. It's likely a side effect of her fundamental brokenness that let her go down this road in the first place. There's no way that's fully figured out yet. IC probably shifted to handling the D due to it being more pressing for her to work through now. She needs to get there on her own. It is early days still so there's still hope as long as you give her the grace of time to figure it out.

Or should I tell her? I am on a fence. I want to be fully honest with her but on the other hand I don't want her to read what was said here.

I don't think you've said anything here that you wouldn't, haven't, or shouldn't said directly to her if asked. The biggest concern would be her tailoring her interactions just to meet what you wish she would do. I think she could use some wayward 2x4s to help her understand, but I wouldn't do it intentionally at this point with her authenticity is still in question.

Some of the couples on here would be able to give a better perspective on how this would work this early on.

[This message edited by grubs at 9:42 AM, January 29th (Friday)]

Delete SI from your browser history. Use the incognito mode on your browser when you’re on SI.

I wrote you a very long article 4 days ago, but I didn't publish it because I didn't want to. I think you underestimate your wife's intelligence. I think your wife's been checking you out here for a long time. Because I believe in a little conspiracy theory, and I'm a good observer. The whole story you write has a very inconsistent, very Phase-related disconnect and question mark. I apologize, but I don't believe in coincidences, especially if it's so overlapping. And I swear that 4 days ago I wrote that you checked on the internet in other ways. You probably live in Sweden. If your story is true, I'm writing it assuming it's true. I think the last thing you should be worried about is your wife having sex with the AP. I think your wife is always one step ahead of you.

[This message edited by GiTaRiST at 11:37 AM, January 29th (Friday)]

DO NOT SHARE THIS SITE with her PERIOD. Also check your WW's browser history to see if your WW has been here on SI.

DO NOT SHARE THIS SITE!!

Until she has become a truly remorseful partner and is on the road to rebuilding her shit this is the one safe space you have. Also at this point I'd really reconsider having the same therapist for everything. She still doesn't get it. No one is holding her accountable.

Until she has become a truly remorseful partner and is on the road to rebuilding her shit this is the one safe space you have. Also at this point I'd really reconsider having the same therapist for everything. She still doesn't get it. No one is holding her accountable.

She has been a lot more stable apart from here and there. The focus of her IC shifted from finding out why she did it to help her cope with the outcome (separetion and divorce). She has been a lot more calm since she started, especially around kids

What your wife has been doing is called "white knuckling". It's a phenomenon where people essentially put on a brave face or act in a certain way even though it is against what they are truly feeling and wanting to do.

Both cheaters and betrayed spouses are known to do this.

So while your wife has been putting on the face of "getting better due to IC", in fact, she is just hanging on and acting as if she is with the program hoping you will change your mind, and doing whatever she can to turn your head around, including pussy-bombing you etc.

What you have noticed recently is that she "lets the mask drop" meaning she cannot keep up the pretense of behaving like someone who isn't utterly self-centered.

That's when you get called an asshole, she decides she doesn't want to divorce even though she has been outside your marriage, and that snooping through your phone is something she should do.

Yes, whe share the same IC. The outcome (divorce) is their now focus.

Respectfully, unless you are sitting with them, you have no idea whatsoever what their focus is.

If your wife trusts this therapist at all, she is telling the therapist things that are inconsistent with what she is telling you.

You don't know if the therapist is telling her: "He's just mad now, give him some time to calm down."

You just don't know.

I know you are going to do what you are going to do. I hope I don't offend you, but I will re-iterate: Therapy is useless for a cheater who isn't hellbent intent on changing themselves, so much so that if the therapist doesn't hold them accountable, they will fire the therapist.

I will also re-iterate that sharing a therapist is a huge mistake.

Even making the huge leap of assuming the therapist is intelligent, decent, has the right outlook on cheating (accountability and truth above all), the therapist cannot serve two masters with different goals.

Your goals are different from your wife's goals. You want to get out of infidelity (which mean living with a liar to a large degree), and have a trusting life with your wife, being able to look yourself in the mirror in continuing on with this woman.

Your wife wants to go back to when you didn't know who she really was and "get out of trouble" so nothing really changes for her.

Her actions tell the truth, not her words. And if she is telling the therapist different she is lying to the therapist.

***

Please understand this: As Tushnurse stated, the biggest problem is that your wife's reaction to any situation where she is facing pressure with you is to lie.

I would like to add to that: she has incredibly bad judgement, which puts her in the situation where she feels she needs to lie. She see a right choice and wrong choice, she deliberately makes the wrong choice and then uses lies to evade consequences.

Trust first, then comes healing. Good luck to you.

Until she has become a truly remorseful partner and is on the road to rebuilding her shit this is the one safe space you have. Also at this point I'd really reconsider having the same therapist for everything. She still doesn't get it. No one is holding her accountable.

Tushnurse, you wrote this while I was replying. You are right on point.

Until she has become a truly remorseful partner and is on the road to rebuilding her shit this is the one safe space you have. Also at this point I'd really reconsider having the same therapist for everything. She still doesn't get it. No one is holding her accountable.

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Excerpt from my article:

Bottom line: if you're going to marriage therapy:

-----------------------------------------------------------

Be VERY careful there. As others have told you, most couples' counsellors aren't trained to deal with infidelity, their primary goal is to keep you two together no matter what, and that usually translates into blaming YOU for half of HER decision to cheat.

You are responsible for half the things that happen in your marriage.

The decision, the CHOICE to cheat was 100% hers. Grownups TALK when there are problems in the relationships. Selfish, entitled and stupid little children do things without weighing the consequences.

The moment he/she starts with "which of your actions do you think lead to her making this mistake", WALK. Period.

You did NOTHING to lead her to cheat and it was NOT a "mistake".

Speaking of consequences, the only thing you're teaching her by taking her back is the fact that 1) she can get away with it and 2) she needs to get better at hiding.

And Cheating is not a mistake. Cheating is a choice. The Plan requires time and also requires flirting. If she'd spend so much dedication on her marriage, you wouldn't be talking about it now.

[This message edited by GiTaRiST at 3:37 PM, January 29th (Friday)]

Check her browser history to see if the site was accessed. And also check your browser history to see if the site was accessed at a time when you didn't. But you may not remember clearly because you are here often.

If the devices have logs, you can check them too.

If you want to learn by talking, you can ask whether she has done her own research other than the sources you mentioned, and what other sources did she use about infidelity? If she says you she searched the Internet, you will ask what she had found. Even if she doesn't say it, maybe you can understand from her body language she knows this site or not.

And finally if she knows this site, let's not forget that she will read these and laugh at us. :)

Btw, some members direct their anger for their WW's to your WW. I can understand this. But we have to maintain our objectivity. This is not a game we play on the keyboard, there are families and children on the other side. It is wrong to exaggerate a lie that anyone can tell, or a behavior that anyone can do, and make it unique to cheaters. We have to assume that they never told such lies. Otherwise, they must be as horrible as they tell about your WW.

It is very normal human reaction to be afraid of losing a spouse. It is wrong and manipulative to portray this as a cheaters behavior, actually BS' more do this.

I hope I could explain well what I mean. I'm not defending your WW, or I'm not saying that lying is a good thing. Just, if the lie I tell, in the fuss of being caught looking at my spouses phone, does not make me a cheater and horrible person, it doesn't your WW either, but cheating does her.

[This message edited by guvensiz at 4:19 PM, January 29th (Friday)]

Listen R is built on a foundation of complete and total honesty and if you dont start calling her out on it and hold her accountable for it then she will not change. Her first impulse regardless of the confrontation is to lie. You cannot R with someone who does this and isn't working to change it.

I couldn't agree more. Her lies were big chunk of her apology letter, I should made myself more clear when I wrote that. I told her I am hurt because I have been nothing but honest and what do I get in return? More lies.

Her explanatino was that she lied because she was sure if she told me the truth I would be hurt and mad and it would push away even more. We then again had a talk about how this attitude is damaging for any futur R and is the reason why we are where we are. I got the same answer when I asked her why she didn't come clean in the beginning. So I guess faithfulman is rignt, she is still the same person that cheated on me which is truly disappointing

But you are not R, you're D.

In R, we work toward building new trust. And that's not limited to one side. BOTH partners are reinvesting in the marriage and BOTH need to be able to trust that their partner will be "all in" on the endeavor. You don't have that. That's not what you're offering. You're offering a "someday/maybe" type of D which leaves your WW completely unprotected. She's being asked to trust you WHILE you're kicking her out of your marriage, and if she makes any attempts to protect herself, she'll be viewed as "unremorseful". A very neat trap.

All her instincts are telling her that something is very wrong, and it is. You are no longer someone she should trust because you DO NOT have her best interests at heart. Understandably, YOUR best interests are your focus.

This is the problem with trying to work D and R at the time. The goal in R is for both partners to lean in toward one another in order to rebuild trust and emotional intimacy. D sends you down the exact opposite path, leaning away. The expectation that your WW can continue to lean in while you are leaning away isn't rational. It's not human instinct. WHY should she trust you when your actions are actively hurting her?

You've had a lot of people giving you advice who have no experience in R. And yeah, it's great to have emotional support from people who understand how angry and hurt we are. But honestly man, I think you're making a mistake. I think that if you love your wife and if you want to keep your family together, than you would do well to fully engage the R process with the aid of a good therapist who is well-versed in infidelity, trauma, and the Gottman method. But if you don't love your wife and you really do want to move on, you should just do it, without the mixed messages, without the "someday/maybe", so that you BOTH can deal with your feelings about the end of the relationship. Right now, you're setting her up to fail. She can't trust you. She can't lean in. You ARE her adversary, someone who is kicking her out and leaning away, and no matter how tightly she squeezes her eyes shut and wishes to trust you, your actions are undeniable.

Why are some posters so intent on focusing on how and/or what Mr. F’s WW is feeling? Or on what Mr. F should be doing to make her feel safer? LOL, I thought the purposes of these threads was to give support to the OP.

Mr. F.

I absolutely agree with everything ChamomileTea so eloquently said. Given the level of your WW’s betrayal, and what appears to be an excellent chance for R, your decision to D with some vague promise --- and you control where and when the goal posts are moved --- of R, is going to make it pretty hard if not impossible to recover. It’s my belief that this is going to end tragically for you both if you continue down this path. Take some time before offering R, but don’t make a decision that can and will poison the outcome before you’ve decided what you actually want.

The help is not limited to just the BH but should be available

for the marriage and the WW.

At this point the OP WW has been caught, they are doing

counseling, there is no reason to keep this sight hidden from

the WW.

She should be encouraged to join here so the likes of

owningitnow, hikingout, mrswondering and the other great

FWW that are here to mentor her.

Yeah, I don't think she knows about this thread. But I deleted everything from my browser just to be sure. From now on will use only incognito mode. I write my posts from my work laptop now anyway.

We spoke more about the phone incident, she went through text messages and Whatsapp because she saw the single text there is between me and my coworker from her to me "I mixed that up somehow, I remember now you said later" It was a continuation of a work conversation from work IM but I guess it might look a little off. She apologized again so I hope we are good. I asked her I can see her phone too and she gave it to me withou hesitation. I swiftly went to browser and searched SI, nothing came back.

I wrote you a very long article 4 days ago, but I didn't publish it because I didn't want to. I think you underestimate your wife's intelligence. I think your wife's been checking you out here for a long time. Because I believe in a little conspiracy theory, and I'm a good observer. The whole story you write has a very inconsistent, very Phase-related disconnect and question mark. I apologize, but I don't believe in coincidences, especially if it's so overlapping. And I swear that 4 days ago I wrote that you checked on the internet in other ways. You probably live in Sweden. If your story is true, I'm writing it assuming it's true. I think the last thing you should be worried about is your wife having sex with the AP. I think your wife is always one step ahead of you.

Sorry, but don't understand a thing in that post. I do not underestimate my wife's inteligence. She's way more inteligent than me. Honestly. I tried some fishing tonight and I am pretty sure she doesn't know about this thread or even this website. I don't live in Sweden, neither. The rest is confusing, I seriously have no idea what you mean by that. Care to rewrite it?

Also at this point I'd really reconsider having the same therapist for everything

Ok, I will take your advice for once. I will find a new one and let you know how that goes.

faithfulmanAgain, great post. Thank you. Our (or Her's from Monday on) has a pretty strict attitude towards cheaters, I would bet my shoes she's giving my wife a hard time for her affair. Or at least that's the impression I have of her. Not o single instance of blaming me for my W's affair. I think my wife is in good hands as of now, but I took the advice and will find some other IC for myself

As Tushnurse stated, the biggest problem is that your wife's reaction to any situation where she is facing pressure with you is to lie.

Yes, she will work on that. Some of it stems from her poor coping when she's not in charge of things and outcomes of situations. She's trying to control the situation and we won't get anywhere until she lets go of that

GiTaRiST

Marriage counseling is not happening. Not now

The decision, the CHOICE to cheat was 100% hers. Grownups TALK when there are problems in the relationships. Selfish, entitled and stupid little children do things without weighing the consequences.

Absolutely. She told me few days back that her affair had nothing to do with me or our marriage. And it just "didn't happen", it was premeditated and put together by thousand of liitle steps and little lies. But all this had been said here before many times so I see no point in repeating myself

Speaking of consequences, the only thing you're teaching her by taking her back is the fact that 1) she can get away with it and 2) she needs to get better at hiding.

She absolutely can't get away with it. There is no rug sweeping or looking the other way. Just no. And I don't believe she would do this again. Honestly I don't. I have seen what her affair did to her and I seriously doubt she would be willing to go through it again. Or it might be just wishful thinking. Hope not

Check her browser history to see if the site was accessed. And also check your browser history to see if the site was accessed at a time when you didn't. But you may not remember clearly because you are here often.

If the devices have logs, you can check them too.

Got her phone, nothing there. My phone's good too. No acces in time when I know she snooped, but I obviously can't be sure about the other instances.

[This message edited by MrFlibble at 6:14 PM, January 29th (Friday)]

I thought the purposes of these threads was to give support to the OP.

There's all kinds of support. Sometimes folks "support" emotionally, commiserating with feelings of anger and betrayal. And sometimes "support" means helping a person find ways to achieve their goals. The OP's goals seem a bit at odds here. My experience and what I've learned in seventeen years of studying infidelity tell me that he's limiting his chance of success. Personally, I think it's a supportive thing to tell him so.

ChamomileTea

Wow, thank you. I will let that stew for a few days. I would be lying if I told you I don't have any doubts about this approach. But I disagree on You're offering a "someday/maybe" type of D which leaves your WW completely unprotected. I offered her R, with condition that we divorce first. There is no maybe. As you surely know, even if we do our best it might not end up well, but we will try.

And I want to make one thing very clear. I love my wife, with all my heart. But she hurt me with the worst way possible and it's hard to get over that. It just is. And I know we are BOTH hurting, and we are both confused and torn. But we promised each other we will fight on. And I intend to honor that promise