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I think Admiral Ackbar has it right.

She has nothing else to offer than her reasons were selfishness and entitlement. I originally thought that there must be more, but apparently there isn't.

OK, but the why is important only insofar as it helps her change.

So she's selfish and over-entitled. What is she doing, using that knowledge, to change from cheater to good partner?

What she does with this knowledge may not matter to your M, but it matters to her future.

And if she's not using her insight well, it's crucial to you future for you to realize it.

Sissoon has it right. Acknowledging it is only step one of the process. There could be a myriad of reasons as to why she allowed herself to be selfish and entitled to the affair. Maybe she's always gotten her way. Maybe she likes to chase after things she can't have. Maybe she's always felt inadequate causing her to want more. Those are the real whys she needs to dig into in order to change. So far it seems to me her response has been to dig her heels in and continue being selfish and entitled when it comes to what you need.

Only go on the trip if you think it's worth it and can handle it. Really prepare yourself to be steadfast in your boundaries and to be bombarded with a series of tantrums that she will throw in response. Personally, I think I would rather go through with the lawyer and treat it as contested. I also wouldn't fully believe that she will just "give up" after the trip unless giving up involves her telling friends and family about how you never gave her a chance to make things right. That is sort of where I think she might be going with this if you don't rugsweep and play nice. Some version of: "He agreed to give it one last try and then acted cold, moody, and impossible on our trip together! He doesn't even want to try!" I think that is the real trap - damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Mr F - I there is a advantage to going on the weekend - an uncontested divorce. That could be definitely worth any short term discomfort you may have.

Does your WW fully understand the crux of the matter - that it was her repeated lying to you to your face, after repeated attempts on your part to ask for the truth? Has she been able to address this specifically? What does she say about it? Does she understand why this is a deal breaker for you, or is it it that she’s focusing on the fact that it never went into a full blown PA so she thinks you both can work to reconcile?

You do not regret what you do, it is what you don't do. I would advise going on the trip. If after this you still want to D, then you know it is the right path.

Like all choices, they often take time and a great deal of thought to make and then walk towards.

She made her choice back at the end of last year and just as you are doing now, she took her time and made a series of decisions knowing the possible consequences, before she acted upon it. But once her decision was made she went with it - with full knowledge of the consequences.

You are in the same boat in many ways. You have taken your time in making a decision knowing the consequences. Just like her you have deliberated on each decision point, rationalised it in your mind, debated the consequences with the people here and internally with yourself.

And just like her you have arrived at your decision knowing full well what the consequences are.

Life for any of us is a series of choices we make every day. Some choices are largely irrelevant and some have lifelong ramifications. It sucks but sometimes the decisions we make are for a longer term benefit. I think in your case (and even for Mrs F), you making this decision is for the better long term.

Mr. F. Your decision is your decision, and whatever that decision is, is the correct one for you. I'm not trying to talk you out of anything. However, may I proffer a contrarian viewpoint.

You can't forgive the fact that your WW lied right to your face about her relationship with the POS. You don't want to live the rest of your life with a partner who could so easily and coldly lie to your face. I think I have this right?

The contrarian view is that your WW might never have considered herself out and out lying to you about the relationship with the POS. In her mind, she was swearing to her truth that this was a friendship, and was simply minimizing what was not a physical relationship, so she could remain friends with the POS and get the validation she wanted from this friendship. She never let it get physical because all she wanted was the friendship and the ego kibbles, hence the minimization when you confronted her time and again - her truth.

In her mind, I'm not letting it get physical and my husband is trying to shut down what to me is a friendship. Burner phone - POS provided it and WW didn't think of it as anything more than a tool to maintain the friendship so that you wouldn't interfere with that friendship.

I have no doubt your WW wife knew the relationship with POS was boundary crossing and inappropriate, but with minimization it was OK to proceed. Why? Your WW can't find a why other than selfishness. This fits exactly with what her IC told her - she is highly immature for her age and has selfish tendencies. Can this be remedied?

I get the feeling that you look at things as black and white. I once mentioned that I believe your personality is very similar to some BH on SI who could not R with their WW because in business and in life they were at the top of their game, ego driven, win at all costs. This would be SpaceGhost and Waited WayTooLong, for example. This is not a denigration but simply fact. On the other hand, there is Walloped and BeyondRage, who were able to work towards R given what were worse circumstances. Both of these BH were also winners in work, life, ego driven, win at all costs. Where do you fit in these two models? If your personality lies with the former, there may be no way to R. However, if it lies with the latter or somewhere in between, there is the prospect of R.

Do you feel an overwhelming sense of injustice and need to punish bad behavior with divorce, to teach your WW a lesson? This is not a prescription but a question you might want to ask yourself to determine if you can truly R or divorce, or what is driving you towards divorce.

I think I'm confident in saying that the vast majority of BH's on SI wish they had your problem - a WW who committed an EA, who is fully remorseful, ready and able to do the work to R, who loves you, and you love her.

Can your WW change and become a safe partner that you can R with? To review, it was an EA, she passed the poly, her lying stone cold to your face might have been more minimization (i.e. her truth) versus cold blooded calculation, she is remorseful, she loves you, if there was an A one was able to R with this would be the one, your kids, your home and assets, your next relationship(s) could be worse and include infidelity, your WW could remarry and some other man will help raise your children, in your words she's now a cold fish at work meaning she's beginning to understand what boundary setting is all about (although right now it may be extreme), WW can continue to grow with IC.

Before making any final decision have you considered having your WW post on the Wayward side of SI to gain a better viewpoint, have you considered attending her IC sessions, have you considered jointly going to an infidelity trauma specialist?

Can you defer the decision to divorce and consider all of the above and take some further actions as I've mentioned? Is your WW redeemable, can she learn and grow to be a better and safe partner, can you eventually return to a happy marriage, are the odds in favor of the above based upon the actions you're seeing from your WW, and importantly, can your personality weather the storm of R, or learn to weather the storm, because the potential results are worth it?

Dude....

The contrarian view is that your WW might never have considered herself out and out lying to you about the relationship with the POS. In her mind, she was swearing to her truth that this was a friendship, and was simply minimizing what was not a physical relationship, so she could remain friends with the POS and get the validation she wanted from this friendship. She never let it get physical because all she wanted was the friendship and the ego kibbles, hence the minimization when you confronted her time and again - her truth.

and

I think I'm confident in saying that the vast majority of BH's on SI wish they had your problem - a WW who committed an EA, who is fully remorseful, ready and able to do the work to R, who loves you, and you love her.

I don't think you read his story. It was a PA. She lied about the physical aspects of it. It was not "her truth".

I am utterly confused at what you have written. Go to MC (Infidelity Specialist)? Why, when all that will do is add another voice telling him he needs to reconcile with her. I think the choir of voices telling him he should "stop punishing her" comprised of his family, her family, and all her friends are already loud enough.

your next relationship(s) could be worse and include infidelity, your WW could remarry and some other man will help raise your children

Anyone seriously think he needs to be reminded of this? Honestly, I think you are projecting. He should not base his decisions for his future on fears of what might be. The only question he needs to ask himself is whether having her in his life is a benefit or a detriment.

Can we also please stop with this nonsense that, now that finally she is faced with the prospect of her marriage failing, her actions are loving when they are really just selfish. She's panicking. Where was all of this love and attention to MrF before?

If she said to him "I will only love you for the rest of my life and will prove it to you everyday." Of course I will sign those divorce papers. You told me you need this divorce so you can heal and I want what's best for you. This will only be a temporary setback. I will never give up." and then proceeded to do just that, then I would buy it. Anyone really think that possible, with her desperate need for attention and validation? And if the above sounds silly to you, ask yourself why, after some "waywards" decimate people they "love", we shouldn't expect them to think that way.

Sometimes people are just done, like when their spouse has looked them in the eyes and swore on God, their parents, their kids, etc., and lied over and over again. Like in this case.

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 1:34 AM, Friday, July 16th]

Is the getaway this weekend?

Burner phone - POS provided it and WW didn't think of it as anything more than a tool to maintain the friendship so that you wouldn't interfere with that friendship.

I can think if no possible universe in which a reasonably intelligent woman would think a burner phone is “a tool to maintain a friendship.” Burner phones are the tools of drug dealers and terrorists. If you have a burner phone, it is because you are doing something shady.

I once mentioned that I believe your personality is very similar to some BH on SI who could not R with their WW because in business and in life they were at the top of their game, ego driven, win at all costs. This would be SpaceGhost and Waited WayTooLong, for example.

Both men have explained their trajectories and their decision wasn’t motivated by ego or a win at all costs ethic. Frankly, how insulting to two good men whose wives acted in such dishonorable and reprehensible ways and with such brazen duplicity.

Do you feel an overwhelming sense of injustice and need to punish bad behavior with divorce, to teach your WW a lesson?

This seems like projection. Most of the time here on SI, divorce is posited as a viable option, not for revenge, but for healing. In fact, in so many cases it seems to speed healing. Positing it as an act of revenge seems like both projection and a straw man. In reality it's more like getting a shell shocked soldier away from the Western front so they can find peace, and not demanding they return to the front on the basis of their conscription order (a piece of paper).

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:46 AM, July 16th (Friday)]

Actually, I know mr F’s story quite well. It was 95 percent EA. The PA consisted of a couple of make out sessions, snd up the shirt once. POS put her hand on his crotch in the car and she pulled her hand away. All of this was confirmed by the Poly. This was an EA at its core. His WW did not want a PA - she wanted this male friendship and the associated ego kibbles. His WW has maturity snd boundary issues.

99 percent of the BH’s on SI, who desire R, would gladly trade their situation and their WW for this situation snd WW. Now, as I previously said, if your personality is such that even this EA is a deal breaker, then god bless snd move to D.

What I’m recommending is that Mr. F consider taking a temporary step back from D and look at this from 30,000 feet. He can divorce in a month, two months, 6mo this from now. Why wait and do more intense work towards R? Mr. F is angry, feels a sense of injustice, his ego has taken a hit, and he wants to punish. These are my assumptions.

How could my WW stone cold lie to my face after I tried to talk with her in good faith multiple times? Mr F - all WW’s lie stone cold to their BH’s face. The question goes back to whether Mr. F can move beyond the black and white, see grey, and want to work with his WW for the next years to repair and R.

It’s all on her no doubt. Everyone says a BH husband needs to help heal himself alongside with his WW fixing herself and helping to heal her BH. I would say Mr F could start to heal himself within his current marriage, without immediate divorce. How would he start to heal? I would start with the consideration that rarely anything in life is simply black snd white, including his WW affair. If this was a hard core PA, I wouldn’t necessarily be saying this. This was not a PA. Even Spaceghost said that had his WW had an EA, he could have R.

I used to be an ego driven, win at all costs, zero sum, highly critical, judgmental, quick to anger, black snd white kind of person with no grey. I lived like this for 50 years. It became very apparent to me that my wife, daughter, and other relationships were not going to be around too much longer if I kept this up.

So I changed. I’m 54 now, and it’s taken four years. I’m still a work in progress. No one could heal me - I had to heal me. If my wife did what Mr F’s WW did 4 years ago I most probably would be where Mr. F is now. However, me at 54….

Dude, it sounds like you wish you could have had MrF's story. You feel he is "lucky" to have a wife, in your mind, who wants to fight for him and her marriage. So what. Ask him how fortunate he feels to have his wife "only" have a previous EA, followed by both an EA and PA. I somehow doubt he thanks his lucky stars every morning.

The PA consisted of a couple of make out sessions, snd up the shirt once. POS put her hand on his crotch in the car and she pulled her hand away. All of this was confirmed by the Poly. This was an EA at its core.

Oh, so now it was a PA, but really it was only an EA "at its core". Maybe you don't mean to twist the knife, but I think he has already dealt with enough people, including his wife and mother, minimizing his pain. He doesn't need to hear that from us.

What I’m recommending is that Mr. F consider taking a temporary step back from D and look at this from 30,000 feet. He can divorce in a month, two months, 6mo this from now. Why wait and do more intense work towards R? Mr. F is angry, feels a sense of injustice, his ego has taken a hit, and he wants to punish. These are my assumptions.

Maybe he could, but he already went off alone to reflect, took stock of his life and concluded that, at this point, he no longer wants her in it. And he's "punishing" her? You know his mother said that to him already, right? He already said, in not so many words, that it cut deep. That "she didn't get it". Stop twisting the knife.

Honestly, he doesn't sound angry anymore. He sounds resigned. Like someone who has sadly concluded that his marriage must end as he doesn't want to live with his betrayer, seeing her as both the first thing he sees when he wakes up in the morning and the last thing he sees before going to sleep. He made this decision knowing he has young children who will no longer have a two-parent home, and all that entails. Who are we to challenge his resolve?

Maybe he doesn't want her following him around all day begging for forgiveness, a narcissistic act when he has told her countless times he wants to be left alone, for the express purpose of having him reassure her and comfort her. How utterly self-centered.

It’s all on her no doubt. Everyone says a BH husband needs to help heal himself alongside with his WW fixing herself and helping to heal her BH. I would say Mr F could start to heal himself within his current marriage, without immediate divorce. How would he start to heal? I would start with the consideration that rarely anything in life is simply black snd white, including his WW affair. If this was a hard core PA, I wouldn’t necessarily be saying this. This was not a PA. Even Spaceghost said that had his WW had an EA, he could have R.

Spaceghost has repeatedly said every person has their own line. We shouldn't refer to him, or anyone else, as authorities regarding a decision to D or R. That decision is intensely personal.

I used to be an ego driven, win at all costs, zero sum, highly critical, judgmental, quick to anger, black snd white kind of person with no grey. I lived like this for 50 years. It became very apparent to me that my wife, daughter, and other relationships were not going to be around too much longer if I kept this up.

And where, exactly, is the "grey" in this story. The only grey I can see is yes, she is not some caricature, some evil adulterous woman bent on destroying him while presenting herself as an angel. People are complicated but that doesn't necessarily preclude them being, or at least acting, evil either. Once again, so what, nothing she did was "grey" at all. She cheated because she wanted to, thought she could get away with it, and was at the very least oblivious, if not indifferent, to the pain it would cause MrF. And then she lied about it despite multiple chances to come clean, so long as she thought she could keep him in the dark. She called him controlling when he challenged her "friendship" after she already had made out with him. She even introduced the two of them, after she had already made out with him, and then went on to make out with him again, this time for longer with mutual groping. You may call it black and white thinking, but I would call what she did evil. The truth of matter is that this is pretty cut and dry. Whatever motivations she had to commit such acts, such as "only" wanting male attention (as if that somehow makes betrayal any better), doesn't in any way excuse, justify, or even slightly mitigate what she did. The fact it could have been worse is, I'm sure, of no comfort to MrF.

How could my WW stone cold lie to my face after I tried to talk with her in good faith multiple times? Mr F - all WW’s lie stone cold to their BH’s face. The question goes back to whether Mr. F can move beyond the black and white, see grey, and want to work with his WW for the next years to repair and R.

This right here, is nonsense. "All WWs lie MrF, just get over it. It could be worse. Think about how lucky you are. She could have been the groupie for the local sports teams. See the shades of grey. That black and white thinking is limiting. And don't just get over it, get to work. You have to guide your WW in your healing."

What a nightmare.

What you fail to grasp is that this is all on her. Sure, you say it's on her, but then go on to give advice that basically puts the responsibility for R squarely on his shoulders. You know, cause he's stuck in that "black and white thinking". It IS all on her. Not just the affair, reconciliation, and their marriage: everything. She needs to take the reigns. She needs to read the books, and apply what's in them. She needs to become a better person, one who isn't selfish and entitled. One who isn't desperately trying to preserve her wants and needs and focus on what he wants. Only then does she stand any chance of rekindling any desire he has to be with her. Even now it may be too late.

You have your life, your scars and your regrets. I empathize, but your that has nothing to do with MrF and his story. If you are going to pitch R, at least do it in a way that doesn't minimize what happened to him.

Truth be told, in a perfect world, I think it would be nice if they could reconcile. I agree that what she did is not necessarily insurmountable, for some people. He may even think that his story may suck less than some of the other members' stories here, but I wouldn't presume anything. If she did major work on herself perhaps he could come to believe and take comfort in the fact, as you say, that she really only wanted male attention and not an affair, however meaningless that distinction may be. Maybe if she could demonstrate real, selfless love, things could change. I also think, from reading MrF's posts, that getting a D is a necessary step, both in his healing and in any possible future R.

But maybe there's too much damage to recover from. I don't know and neither does anyone else, other than MrF. But I would never presume to judge his decision to D and neither should anyone else.

MrF, whether you go on that trip or not, be true to yourself. Don't be the kind of man who can't look himself in the mirror. Be proud of whatever decision you make. My prayers are with you and your family.

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 5:46 PM, Friday, July 16th]

IMO, deciding on the basis of the WS's actual activities being or not being 'bad enough' is a giant mistake.

Betrayal is betrayal. A willing kiss ... a willing touch ... an emotional connection + secrecy + sexual tension (Glass's definition of EA, IIRC) ... all of those are betrayals.

NO ONE can know 'if the betrayal had consisted of ____, I would have ____', because no one really knows what they'd do in a situation they haven't experienced. We all know SIers who say they thought they'd D if betrayed but find themselves wanting R.

To heal, A BS needs to look inside, figure out what they want, figure out what's attainable, and act accordingly.

Personally, I think every BS will serve themself best by considering many options. Personally, I think a BS who feels they can't bring themselves to do one of the options will serve themself best by figuring how how to do the that thing.

You need to be able to make free choices to heal. If you can't bring yourself to D or R, you can't exercise free choice. You can say 'yes' only if you have a free choice - you can't really say 'yes' unless you can also say 'no' to the same option.

JMO.

As for MrFlibble, it looks to me as if he's considered his options and made a choice. I'm glad he did that.

I'm not sure if his choice is solid yet, but he will find that out in time, and we will, too, if he honors us with reports of his progress. If he can't bring himself to act on his decision, well, that is a problem that can be solved if it comes up.

We're all entitled to act in our own good time.

[This message edited by sisoon at 11:43 AM, July 16th (Friday)]

If you read what I said I’m not being sn apologist for his WW. I offered a contrary view. There are no prescriptions here. As I said, it’s a contrarian view. Should mr F. not consider, reconsider, then consider again before D? You’re offering your prescription for D, which you’re entitled to do. I’m offering another alternative. Until mr F files, he should consider and reconsider this until the end.

Mr. F you've made your decision. I honor it. Those coming here at the 11th hour to sow doubt are just white noise.

Don't get caught up in the sunk costs fallacy, woulda coulda shoulda, minimization of your situation, projection or straw man arguments.

You have resolve. You know what you want. You know what is right and healthy for you. Act accordingly.

I honor your decision. I hope others will do the same.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:01 PM, July 16th (Friday)]

[This message edited by Thumos at 6:01 PM, Friday, July 16th]

FWIW

I believe Mr F's wife already conveyed what, to me, would be very hard to get past.

First, I've followed this thread from the beginning, and have only lurked on these forums. My (simplified) background is that I'm a wayward. I only did that once in my life, but it did happen.

For the point I'm going to make, here is a little context:

A quote from a post from Mr F back on 4/27/2021:

I have been thinking a lot about a future, how will my life look in 5 years if I decide to D or R. Will she do it again? Will I let the resentment build and grow until I will hate her guts? That's what I am afraid of, that we will just go on with our lives like it didn't happen, we will end up where we were (her unhappy, me not aware of it) and you know the rest.

Later Mr F posts insight about Mrs F from 5/2/2021:

Her unhappiness or discontent came from her, not from our marriage. It came in handy when she was looking for justifications. I genuinly believe she loves me, I don't think she stays for money or for kids. I offered her an easy way out, she fights tooth and nails for this marriage and for me. I have to give her credit in that regard. If it were an act, the mask would probably fell off by now.

She cheated because she wanted to and she could. Poor boundaries, need for external validation, low self-esteem. You name it. Is it fixable? Who knows.

And then this, and this is where I think a key point is made back on 5/6/2021:

Interesting "new" revelation. W texted me if she can come to my office to talk and I said yes, obviously. SO she came in, apparently had been crying, and told me after her weeks of IC sessions she still doesn't know why she did what she did besides her being selfish, immature and stupid. Is this really it? Is it possible there is nothing deeper here? I have no idea what my expectations are in this

She's afraid she will never be able to tell me "why", to give me an aswer with any real value. She told me one of her biggest fears is that is she can't take it apart, get into the smallest details of whys, that she can't fix herself and is ultimately doomed to repeat it. I was speechless.

I think most know that waywards are often in a 'fog'; where stimulating emotions drive their reckless behavior. I know that was true for me *and* my AP. It was unbelievable how fast it escalated actually. My main point here is that these emotions feel good. They feel validating. They're more than you can get from you long time partner who is supposed to get you flowers, remember your birthday, etc. It's new. It's exciting.... It's.... addicting.

With that said, I'll offer another admission. I'm a recovering alcoholic. Drinking started, and was fun, at an early age. And I would have never imagined, then, how years down the road it would progress to the ugly reality it eventually became. Alcoholics don't know why we're this way, we just know we are. We eventually learn that when we have some alcohol, we immediately want more. And more... And more... Normal people stop. They don't dwell on it. They're not alcoholic. Alcoholics start to become secretive about it because we know that it's both bad for us *and* socially unacceptable to most (except other alcoholics!). Early and mid-stage, It's exciting... Later we learn that It's... addicting.

I'm 8 years sober. But it's still there. I know it. I've tested it and failed many times (aka: relapse). I've known recovered alcoholics that relapsed at 5 years, 10, 15, 20+. It happens, and it IMMEDIATELY goes back to the dark place again. IMMEDIATELY.

Mrs F has been described as emotionally 'immature' that needs external validation. And I believe she has conveyed these needs to be independent of her marriage to Mr F. Unfortunately, she's a grown woman so, in my view, the likelihood of maturing seems remarkably low.

I say all of this because I believe Mrs F is actually addicted to what she has done not once, but twice. And, like alcoholism, it progressed in how far it went, and the level of sophistication she used to cover it up. It really doesn't matter who bought the burner phone, the fact is that she used it. And would likely still be using it if she hadn't been exposed. And we know that whatever was on that phone, she believed to be damaging enough to destroy it.

Mrs F may be planning a hysterical bonding, begging, pleading event for the weekend. And the weekend may, in fact, be great and persuasive... But what about 5 years from now? 10? Relapse?

I'll close with the well known statement: When someone tells you who they are, believe them. It could be a coworker, friend, stranger that makes initial contact, but it's not like she's never going to meet another man that will try.

Good luck Mr F.

Thumos - if you followed the same advice you’re providing to Mr. F then you would be divorced. Instead, you can’t decide. So, you’re not rushing into things. You’ve been not rushing into D for going on three years now. Mr F has been going through his decision process for a lot less time than that. I applaud you for taking your time so you end up making the right decision for you.

So people can’t change? WW’s can’t change? I would like to hear what Mrs. Walloped, snd other remorseful WW on SI would have to say on this subject.

As I mentioned, my personality had many flaws. And, I’m a highly successful individual. Yet, my personality flaws were detrimental. I showed everyone who I was, yet I was able to change, at 50 years old no less. Please - if you’re telling me that people can’t change then you’re certainly not looking around at people.

There are many types of infidelity in this world. I would certainly characterize how I treated my wife as marital infidelity. I changed!

I say all of this because I believe Mrs F is actually addicted to what she has done not once, but twice. And, like alcoholism, it progressed in how far it went, and the level of sophistication she used to cover it up. It really doesn't matter who bought the burner phone, the fact is that she used it.

I'm not sure I'd classify Mrs. F. as addicted to cheating. She progressed too slow for that. The truly addicted dive deep rapidly. Her willing use of the burner phone was the most damning piece of information IMO. That removes any possibility of her getting to where she was by "mistake". That required willful acknowledgement to herself that what she was doing was wrong as soon as she used it. I read her obvious distress in not finding brokenness outside of selfish and entitlement as a psoitive sign. There's never an easy fix but she was clearly looking for something to fix. What Mr. F hasn't disclosed is what she and her IC have done to short circuit future selfishness driven betrayals. I'd put her chances of not reoffending at this point about in line with the general populace. Maybe a little better. Trauma bites both ways in A and some WS do learn their lesson.

That really doesn't matter though. It takes two to R, and Mr F. has come to the decision that he cannot regardless of how good a candidate she is. Just as we should believe her WW when she says what she is, we should also believe the BS when they say they can't R. It takes two 100% onboard to R. Anything less is just delaying the inevitable.

[This message edited by grubs at 7:24 PM, Friday, July 16th]

Dude, let it go.

If you read what I said I’m not being sn apologist for his WW. I offered a contrary view. There are no prescriptions here. As I said, it’s a contrarian view. Should mr F. not consider, reconsider, then consider again before D? You’re offering your prescription for D, which you’re entitled to do. I’m offering another alternative. Until mr F files, he should consider and reconsider this until the end.

I'm not offering a prescription for D. Did you read what I said? I said I thought that he might need to D for his own healing based on what he has said. My thoughts on what he should do are thus: whatever he deems best for him.

I also didn't say you were being an apologist for his WW. I said you were minimizing his pain and her actions, which you are.

Thumos - if you followed the same advice you’re providing to Mr. F then you would be divorced. Instead, you can’t decide. So, you’re not rushing into things. You’ve been not rushing into D for going on three years now. Mr F has been going through his decision process for a lot less time than that. I applaud you for taking your time so you end up making the right decision for you.

Maybe there's a reason he's giving the advice he's giving? He may have touched upon it on almost every post he's made this year but I digress.

So people can’t change? WW’s can’t change? I would like to hear what Mrs. Walloped, snd other remorseful WW on SI would have to say on this subject.

I doubt he does. What does that have to do with his decision? Are they going to come here and tell him how lucky he is too? I'm sure MrF is aware that if he wants to hear from the waywards on this subject he can always ask. No one said his WW couldn't change. The question is does he want to be with her, after everything she has done.

From what I can tell we are not dealing with someone who is struggling with his decision. We are dealing with a person whose spouse is currently engaged in a relentless love-bombing campaign to get him to not take the action that he decided would be best for him. Even though she herself recognizes she is not a safe partner, as gijoe accurately pointed out. We should not assist her.

If he does go with her this weekend he should absolutely still ask her to sign the divorce papers, even if he decides to R. It would be a great way to test if she is even slightly sincere in her words. He could always rip them up right in front of her.

As I mentioned, my personality had many flaws. And, I’m a highly successful individual. Yet, my personality flaws were detrimental. I showed everyone who I was, yet I was able to change, at 50 years old no less. Please - if you’re telling me that people can’t change then you’re certainly not looking around at people.

There are many types of infidelity in this world. I would certainly characterize how I treated my wife as marital infidelity. I changed!

Just stop dude. You are arguing points that no one made and it is obvious that your views on this are colored by your own experiences. Re-read what you have written and ask yourself, based on what he has written that he wants, how does this help him?

MrF - gijoe's breakdown is spot on. While I don't think that alcoholism/addiction is a perfect analogy, it does share many similarities. I also like the fact that when in recovery it's never anyone else's fault you drank.

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 8:27 PM, Friday, July 16th]

I love it....so now we're getting that Mrs F was in an EA bc there wasn't sex.

Unbelievable...