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MrFlibble,

You state

She's been offering any form of separation for quite some time. I do not see the point.

You may wish to reconsider your stand on separation. Since you are set on divorce, the eventual outcome will be separation. Why not get started on that element now? As you begin to live separate lives, physically separated, she may come to accept that divorce is inevitable, saving you both time and money. If she doesn't, you've already taken care one of the steps you plan to follow once you divorce.

Mr F. You said that your WW has been going to IC. That’s been happening for a while now. The last time the question was put to you as to why your WW had the A, you said that she said she didn’t know - that in IC she had not been able to uncover the why.

IMO, that’s a big problem. Have you discussed this with your WW since then, as she has been in IC months since then? Has she finally been able to offer up to you a why?

If not, how do you feel about this? Can your WW offer up any introspection about how troublesome this is for you? Has she displayed any true empathy for your pain?

I spoke to my lawyer and if I decide to go the contested divorce way it might take up to year or two and it will cost a ton of money. I was advised to try to find a compromise.

Have you tried offering her a better deal than what she would get in a conventional divorce? And have you looked her in the eye and told her that you don't love her anymore and that you want her out of your daily life?

If you're sure that this is what you want, you really don't have anything to lose by offering her what it would cost you to fight her in court. IOW, you can give the money to her or you can give it to the lawyers. If you give it to her, your girls might have some use of it in terms of improved lifestyle. So, even if it galls your ass to have to pay the extra, when you look at that money as gone anyway, and into a lawyer's pocket where it can't be of ANY possible benefit to your kids... it seems like easy math to me.

Also, if you've been going along to get along, it's time to be a little more forthcoming with your feelings. Look her right in the eye, tell her you don't love her anymore, can't imagine ever loving her again, and that you no longer care if she takes up with other men, that in fact, you are hoping she moves on to someone else so you can be free. Tell her that every day she keeps you from pursuing your own future, you hate her a little more. Then, offer her a really nice settlement package and remind her that it's better than what she could get in court and that if you do it the hard way, only the lawyers will benefit. Finish with "let's wind this up now, while we can still stand the sight of one another".

Then, give her a couple days to have her attorney look over your offer. She'll most likely cave.

[This message edited by ChamomileTea at 1:45 PM, July 9th (Friday)]

I wouldn't call it walking away for good since we have two small kids, but yeah. I believe she closed that door a few months back

Mr. F,

So it seems your decision now is to D and never look back? From your previous write ups, you said you would D first then R. What happened in between that you're now just want to D and be done with it?

I've written quite a bit on the thread at JFO, but I didn't want to comment on MrFlibble's decision process.

I don't think the problem here is that MrFlibble's love for his wife is over. We all know it's not over, and he doesn't claim anything like that anyway. Knowing this, trying to manipulate him is not very appropriate.

Again, I will not express an opinion about a choice between divorce or staying married, I will only comment on what happened.

Now we are just going in circles and I am running out of patience. I told her If she really loved me she would give me what I want - an amicable divorce. She says she loves me with all her heart so she can't give up.

Love is an interesting thing that has both selfishness and self-sacrifice in its nature. Love wants to be possessive. She can make any sacrifice for you, as long as she has you. Likewise, she can be expected to do anything to avoid losing you.

I'm not saying this as proof that MrsFlibble is in love with MrFlibble. I just want to say that there is no contradiction between what love requires and what is done. MrsFlibble may have other causes, I can't know it.

When MrsFlibble said that she loved MrFlibble even during A, my comment was that such a thing is not possible. Because there was a contradiction, an impossibility.

It is very normal for someone not to want to lose the person he/she loves, to not want to divorce her/him.

If we think that someone in love should make any kind of sacrifice, what are all these BSs doing here? Didn't they love their WSs enough to let them cheat on them?

guvensiz - While all that may be true I would be willing to bet that, as her selfishness seems to be one of the major issues he has with her, if she can't find it in her to give him what he wants this time after what she has done, any lingering affection he has for her won't matter. Sad reality is likely her only chance is to selflessly let him go and she seems incapable of doing it.

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 6:26 PM, July 9th (Friday)]

I do not question her sincerity on this matter, she may or may not be. But I just say that the reason she put forward cannot be said to be unreasonable.

But it is unreasonable. Her focus is on what she wants and she's prepared to piss away family assets to delay the inevitable unless she can get him to relent. That's still entitlement.

Besides, we can only infer that she doesn't want to divorce or separate, not that she loves him. Not saying she doesn't but there could be other reasons. Like maybe her incessant need for validation, which of course includes the attention from MrFlibble, and her fear of losing that. That's not "love".

[This message edited by AnOminousMan at 9:43 PM, July 9th (Friday)]

I guess you didn't read well what I wrote.

I was agreeing with you that we can't know whether she loves him based on her actions, while adding my own thoughts.

My disagreement is to whether her actions are reasonable or loving.

Mr. F,

What happened after your last update? Did you WW finally gave in?

BlueRaspberry if she won't agree on uncontested divorce, there will be a separation period. We spoke about her moving out but she still refuses to "give up on us". Whatever that means.

Dude67 Yes, we have been discussing her IC sessions pretty much every week. She has nothing else to offer than her reasons were selfishness and entitlement. I originally thought that there must be more, but apparently there isn't. She did it because she wanted to and her feeling of entitlement overpowered her compassion and empthy. It's that simple. Trying to dig for something that's simply not there is a waste of time. When it comes to an empathy and my pain - yeah, I think she had apretty decent picture. And she's hurting too. But again, damage already done. She should have thought about it before. Didn't stop her, so what does it matter now? Not much I say.

ChamomileTea This is not about money. She made it clear she doesn't want anything (house, savings, car). Her stance hasn't changed since the beginning. It the settlement agreement we agreed on putting all the available money to a fund for girls and she offered to put the house in my name only. If we would really go through with this she would lose around 700k USD. So no, it's definitely not about money.

Look her right in the eye, tell her you don't love her anymore, can't imagine ever loving her again, and that you no longer care if she takes up with other men, that in fact, you are hoping she moves on to someone else so you can be free. Tell her that every day she keeps you from pursuing your own future, you hate her a little more.

That's not true. I still love her and the thought of someone else makes me mad. But I can't imagine staying with her after everything. It's hard to explain, sort of damned if I do, damned if I don't scenario. That's the reason why I've been sitting on a fence for so long.

Mr. F,

What happened after your last update? Did you WW finally gave in?

Not at all. She bought us a weekend away at the capital, without kids. Asked me to go with her and if my stance doesn't change after the weekend she will sign the petition. I don't know if I should go, all I hear in my head is admiral Ackbar's "It's a trap!" but at the same time I don't want to miss the opportunity to get this over with. Still not sure what to do.

She did it because she wanted to and her feeling of entitlement overpowered her compassion and empthy. It's that simple.

Yes, it's usually just that simple.

I don't think you should do the weekend away.

Don't respond to blackmail. Tell her you're proceeding with the divorce.

[This message edited by Thumos at 12:09 PM, July 12th (Monday)]

Don't waste more time man. Look at the other thread just below yours by Dragnheart. She stuck around for 20 yrs, has been on this site for 20 yrs, and she recently found emojis of hearts and kisses that she didn't remember getting from her WH. Ended up, that it wasn't really anything, but she has been his police for 20 damn years. She stayed for the farm........ dude, don't follow that path. 20 yrs just wasted being his police. She would listen to Var recordings for hours upon hours. I think youre headed to D, but its not damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If you leave and D your ex, you'll be on to a better future.

She did it because she wanted to and her feeling of entitlement overpowered her compassion and empthy. It's that simple. Trying to dig for something that's simply not there is a waste of time.

Dude hit this one out of the park. One of the most depressing things about all these shitstorms is the refusal of the betrayed to accept what is real. And of course they do not think they will get caught.

Mr. Fibble, not sure if I were you that I would believe that she will sign the forms and all you have to do is show up. My guess is she will try to bombard you with sex and then get pissed as hell if you do not backpedal. Then you will be right back to square one.

I still love her and the thought of someone else makes me mad. But I can't imagine staying with her after everything. It's hard to explain, sort of damned if I do, damned if I don't scenario. That's the reason why I've been sitting on a fence for so long.

It's no wonder that she's not willing to give up if you can't even look her in the face and tell her there's no love left. She's getting a mixed message at that point, don't you agree?

And how is divorce going to work for you anyway? You still love her. Do you think that you're just magically going to stop loving her when the ink is dry on the paperwork?.. or when you start having sex with other women?.. or when she remarries? If you haven't stopped loving her BEFORE the marriage is ended, how do you know you'll ever stop?

Being on the fence is hard. I get that. But what have you done to explore healing? It doesn't just drop into your lap, you know. It's a process and in order to be successful, you have to be proactive about it. It's easy to say, "why should I have to do all that when I'm not the one who broke it?". But here's the problem, whatever you don't fix now goes into your next relationship with you. Your thought might be, "I still love my STBX wife, but I can never trust her again". But do you KNOW that you're capable of trusting any other woman in a romantic capacity right now?

Maybe you get divorced and you meet someone so wonderful that you no longer feel angry/jealous over your ex. But what happens when her work project has taken her out of town and she didn't hear your text messages because she had an extra drink after dinner and fell asleep before your predetermined skype time?

Maybe the reason you're feeling "damned if you do and damned if you don't" is that you're not really ready yet?

Do you think that you're just magically going to stop loving her when the ink is dry on the paperwork?.. or when you start having sex with other women?.. or when she remarries? If you haven't stopped loving her BEFORE the marriage is ended, how do you know you'll ever stop?

I'm in the camp of this is not a necessary precondition of divorce. Just as I don't believe we should conflate reconciliation with forgiveness (one can easily forgive and divorce) neither should we require an absence of love for divorce. I would think that is probably an impossible prerequisite for the vast majority of divorces.

Plenty of people divorce spouses they still love but realize aren't good long-term life partners for them, and aren't healthy for their long-term wellbeing.

In fact, I think this is completely healthy and simply demonstrates the decency and empathy of betrayed spouses like Mr. Flibble.

If I divorce my WW, I doubt I'll simply stop loving her completely.

If other abused spouses were required to stop loving an abusive spouse (and adultery is abuse) before leaving them, we'd probably have a lot more abused spouses remaining mired in abusive marriages.

[This message edited by Thumos at 2:16 PM, July 12th (Monday)]

She bought us a weekend away at the capital, without kids. Asked me to go with her and if my stance doesn't change after the weekend she will sign the petition. I don't know if I should go, all I hear in my head is admiral Ackbar's "It's a trap!" but at the same time I don't want to miss the opportunity to get this over with. Still not sure what to do.

Ah yes. The sex/Love bomb tactic.

Maybe she figures her genitalia got her into this mess, so perhaps it can get her out.

Stay frosty.

Mr. F,

Thank you for your reply.

So from the beginning your argument is to divorce and then start dating each other again and see what happens after that, because your marriage is officially over when the cheating happened. At first she agreed to it, she even wrote you a letter stating 'from your future 2nd wife'... so it's been clearly stated and that's what you wanted from the start.

You filed for divorce and she doesn't want to sign it because her argument is 'i love you so i don't want to let you go'... but your argument is the other way... 'if you love me then let me go'...

Now you've reached an impasse. Well, it's not actually an impasse, it's favorable to your WW. Everyday that you're staying married is a win for your WW. Because that's what she wanted, for you to stay married. She might be crying for hours waiting at your door begging you to give her another chance, but the more the inactivity from your part, the more it is becoming a win for her.

Now you're in a dilemma. If you file for a contested divorce, you both will lose a fortune, she knows that, definitely. She knows you won't file for a contested divorce because you're still thinking about your family's future. And she knows you won't destroy the future of your kids. So, in a way, she's winning. And also, she's winning you over to her side.

She might be crying daily at your door, but believe me, deep inside, she's smiling from ear to ear because she's getting everything she wanted. You want to separate but she wants to stay at your big house and even if you don't see each other often, she's still smiling because she gets to keep everything, including you and your marriage.

If this continues to happen, I will be rooting for your wife. Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually rooting for her, but whatever is happening now, you're on the losing end.

Now let's go back to the past. She knows that once the affair was sexual, you will immediately file for a divorce, no questions asked, and she clearly knows that condition because it's been communicated during the early days of your relationship. So from your mind, she's withholding that information from you. She's claims all those things like she got scared and immediately left the apartment, and all that stuff. I don't believe that!

They had all the foreplay they needed in the world. They had 20-minute parking lot kissing and groping and all the time for themselves wherever they go and even inside the office. They clearly exchanged love hormones and once these exchanges happened, there's no turning back. You just don't get scared after kissing and groping for all those minutes with a person you're clearly into. Nope! That never happens. You don't chicken out from a person you love especially you've done all those foreplay with him. Nah! I Don't believe in that shit.

It was highly physical and sex definitely happened. Even you yourself knows that although you don't admit it. You even say that why didn't they just had sex for it to be over instead of putting you in this dilemma of moving on and letting go? Believe me, they had sex. They had all the time in the world to have sex. You don't just park the car in a place and do all the kissing and groping and then suddenly she chickens out when she touched his dick. Nope! She let him inside her panties already, clearly she's turned on from all the stuff they were doing. After all those minutes spent making out you'll just chicken out when you touch his penis? No sir!

Adults don't schedule alone time together in an apartment to have sex to suddenly give up during foreplay. No No No No!!! The sex definitely happened. She won't admit it happened because she knows that it's a deal breaker!

I just wrote this because of the facts that I gathered from all your previous threads. You just have to piece the story together and you can see the missing links. They've been going at it for a long time to just not let it all happen.

Again, all the best to you and good luck!

[This message edited by beb252 at 11:57 PM, Monday, July 12th]