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Re. this:

She is very scared of the texts, she said as much on one (1) of the VAR conversations she had with her Sister. I am not sure if I can recover them but now it really makes me want to see what was being said. At this point I am just trying to be slow & methodical to cover my bases.

You need to get that phone and keep it in your possession, before one of her friends shows her how to do a factory re-set, which wipes out pretty much everything.

By all means take the phone to a tech specialist or a private investigator to recover as much as possible. There are software packages around that can be downloaded and tried, but someone like a PI will be able to do that while also having ideas about where things can be hidden.

Remember this golden rule: you can bluff. Even if you do not really take the phone to a specialist, or you do, and he cannot recover anything, tell your wife that is what you are doing. Wait for a few days. Then say you have to go and review the findings with the specialist.

Come back silent and serious. Tell her you have read a lot, and ask your wife what she has to say about what she wrote about you, and about the AP, and if she meant all of it.

Get yourself a pen drive. Hold it up and show it to her. Tell her the messages and "All the other material" is all on it, in case you need it in future. Then hide it very securely. All is fair in love and war. Let her sweat, and worry about that stuff being revealed to a wider audience.

One thought; if your wife is scared of the texts, she is scared they may upset you, and if she cares about you being upset, then she cares about the future of the marriage and remaining with you. If she did not give a damn about that, and she really thought she was going to leave and start a new life with the AP, she would not care. Knowing that she does not want to lose what she has gives you leverage.

It also provides you with insight for when you tell her she is welcome to pack up and go and be with the AP if he is so fantastic, because it is becoming clear that the whole 'starting a new life' thing was never a part of the affair, and the AP would very likely tell her she cannot move in with him.

Logical follow-up questions would be, "Doesn't he want you living with him? Doesn't he want to take care of you for the rest of your life? If he did, would you abandon us and go to be with him? Are you only here because he doesn't want you for anything other than free sex?"

Brutal, for sure, but it will help to demolish the whole 'soulmate' delusion that your wife built in her fantasy world.

Sadly, it is no surprise to find that her bunch of friends are all involved in some kind of marital monkey business. That is often how people get drawn into the idea of having affairs, and a group of toxic friends like that can actually promote the idea, because it becomes the group 'norm'. Yes, her one friend of two decades told her to smarten up, but the AP is that guy's friend, and the AP clearly takes a different view, and the friend did not tell the AP to back off.

Moving forwards, if you choose to give your wife a chance, she is going to have to sever her ties with that group of people, because they are a problem waiting to happen. Particularly if the AP is a member of that crew in good standing.

I think that if you have been married to your wife for twenty years, and she has known that male work colleague for twenty years, it is definitely worth asking your wife how many other times she has had affairs. I am not suggesting she has, but it is a worthwhile angle to pursue, based on the fact that her work friend of two decades introduced her to the AP. "So...How many other guys has he introduced you to over the years?"

Something new that came out with my conversation with the WW is that they went to third base not just kissing anymore. She acted like she had told me this before, ah no I am pretty sure I would remember that. We plan to go over the timeline tonight, but I am sure more bones will fall out of the closet. She told him she stopped him from closing the deal & was adamant about it.

That story begs the obvious question, "Why would you go to third base with a man you did not want to have sex with? You are not sixteen years old, you are a grown woman having an affair. Why was third base was fine, but then you suddenly put up a firm and unbreachable boundary?"

Your wife is still trickle-truthing you, but your resolute approach to this will break those barriers down.

She needs a new job if all her associates are cheaters or encourage affairs!

If you can. Expose them all to respective OBS. Isolate your wife from these toxic people.

I will state again to ask APs ex-wife why they had a divorce. I highly suspect this is not his first rodeo.

A poly is a MUST!

[This message edited by BigNoob at 6:34 PM, January 4th (Monday)]

The texts will be bad

Maybe, maybe not. How many times have we read about a WW that considers ILY a lot worst than sex?

I agree with other posters that you need to get the truth above all else.

Good luck and post often.

I am going to try to get to the phone tomorrow, my work is intense so it is not always easy to juggle the "detective work" having a mental fog & still get my work complete. The male co-worker friend's contract will end in May so he will be moving on across town so that is good news. I told her today, if I give you a second chance those people need to disappear because they are not healthy people to be around. Also told her today you want to go with him go, she said no I don't want to go anywhere. Of course you don't he lives in a little shitty house a 1/4 of the size you live in now. The WW spoke with her Mom today for the first time (since I told them what was going on), not sure how that went but she didn't look good when she got home.

[This message edited by CM70 at 8:35 AM, January 5th (Tuesday)]

Just out of curiosity, what would she have to do for you to say “enough” and just get a divorce?

I can’t imagine a man dealing with and accepting what she has done

Don’t allow yourself to continue to be disrespected!!!!! Why are you allowing yourself to be her Plan B???

Let her continue to live in her LaLaLand and move into the house with her lover in the house that is 1/4 the size of your home!!!

Please recognize that she is in crisis mode where she is trying to save the comfortable life she has with you!!!

Do you really think she loves you? If she did, how could she do what she did? If she loved you, how could she cause you the extreme level of pain that you are in right now?

Do you think she RESPECTS you? A blind person can see she doesn’t!!! Do you think that she respects you more or less knowing that you are still haven’t walked away from her??? If you do stay with her, once this crisis is over, her level of respect for you will only increase as she knows that she got away with it, and the next time and the time after that, when she gets caught, she will only have to put on the remorse act until you think she has finally learned her lesson and won’t cheat again . Yeah, right!!!

And do you think you will ever trust her again? Of course not !!! Any time that she is 5 minutes late, you will wonder who the guy she is in the back seat with, with her legs spread, or who she is blowing.

So, right now, your marriage is missing love, respect, and trust. Other than history, what is your marriage based on????

Good luck, and have some respect for yourself

CM,

There is a well known phrase said here on SI,

“Take what you want/need & leave the rest”

I advise you to do this.

Until now I don’t think that phrase needed saying!!!!

The majority of us BS’s have walked this path you are on, some have forgiven, some haven’t. Some have divorced, some are reconciled, some are in reconciliation.

It doesn’t mean anyone of us shouldn’t be respected or that we don’t respect ourselves.

Personally I think you are doing the best you can with the information you have.

Your not willing to rug sweep, you are taking each day as it comes..that’s more than some achieved.

[This message edited by BigBlueEyes at 9:35 AM, January 5th (Tuesday)]

CM I usually don’t post in JFO, the BS bashing and 2x4s are typically too severe for me to handle. On top of receiving the worst possible news you can ever receive, you are then told you are not doing infidelity right, especially it seems when it’s a BH like you & I

The advice however, in my experience pretty accurate. I have done everything I was told I would do and my WW has done everything I was told she would.

I’m posting in your story because it’s very similar to mine, an essentially idealic marriage that went off the rails quickly and only when the AP came onto the scene. There was nothing wrong with the marriage until the AP showed up, that’s a fact, that’s not on you, that’s your wife’s demons to deal with.

I can tell you that a year out from where you are now, you can be like me, living in limbo, with a WS who appears to be remorseful, is lovebombing the shit out of me, as long as we don’t have to talk about her affair.

She like your wife was the type who never would, till she did. She’s smart, well liked, beautiful, caring, and here’s the problem. What she did is so far removed from the picture she has of herself that she can’t bring herself to look in the mirror and try to understand why she did what she did, so she says she was unhappy, because surely she must have been.

She said all the same things, in fact I think your ILYBINILWY (because that’s essentially what you got) chat is the same date as mine, 1 year later.

If I could turn back the clock I would told her I’m done on Dday. I didn’t, I’m a year down the road, experiencing what can only be described as the perfect relationship but I’m numb inside, the thoughts of what she did rattle around my brain morning, noon and night, yeah it’s much better than it was 1 year ago but it’s by no means good.

I don’t want that for you, you appear to be stronger than I was and have found SI much earlier than I did. Continue the path you are on, stay strong, tell her what you need and stick to it.

For the record, as I see so many similarities between yours and my story, almost identical DDays, for me it was beginning of Feb when her fog lifted, she saw AP for who he was and decided she wanted Twodozen after all. It took me a further 5 months before i reached the ILYBNILWY stage, so be prepared for those to come iff you try for R

Stay strong

2D

What TwoDozen said. One year, eight years, make it whatever number you hold on for.

[This message edited by Rufus at 7:11 AM, January 5th (Tuesday)]

What's the status of the timeline?

It’s normal to have mood swings.

One moment anger & divorce and the next moment love & R … all mixed with massive disappointment & sadness. It will get better in time, become more manageable with less severe and less frequent mood swings.

That’s why you need to take whatever time is necessary for your emotions to smooth out to where you can make a rational decision. And even your ‘rational’ decision may change later (a year or years later).

There’s a lot of experience where (if you R) whatever you don’t discover now comes back to haunt you in the form of reliving this nightmare (all of it: the anger, humiliation, sleeplessness….).

For example, the texts will definitely make it hurt more and certainly make it more challenging to R – but in the long run R will be based on a more solid foundation for you.

It’s normal to falsely convince yourself that you can minimize your pain (in the short run) by rugsweeping, feeling sorry for her, and giving her a second chance because you believe she’s “learned her lesson”.

There is no shortcut to making the right decision for you. She has a lot of work to do. Her white knuckling for the next 12 months in itself doesn’t make her a safe partner.

Plus even if after observing her actions (not words) you decide she will be a safe partner going forward - you may still decide to divorce (there’s many reasons and none are subject to anyone else’s opinion).

CM70,

For what it is worth, I think you are doing a good job in a very challenging situation, not only dealing with infidelity but having to balance that with a demanding job.

I also think you are showing a lot of respect for yourself, as you try to figure out the best way forward not just for yourself, but also for your kids.

Your wife's behavior and actions reflect only on her. If she had any self-respect, she would not have done what she did, nor would she have plunged you into this situation, which you did nothing to deserve.

Take it one day at a time, CM70. There are no 'perfect' ways to handle these situations, but you are taking positive steps to get yourself out of infidelity, and it will be up to your wife to prove whether she wants to follow you, or wallow in her own selfishness.

Everyone here who has walked their own version of the path you are now treading will have great empathy for what you are going through. And we are rooting for you. You are a good man, dealing with a bad thing.

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all your insights & experiences. I understand both sides some days I want to say fuck it and I can't deal with WW and her betrayal. The next day I think I could give this a chance & just see where it goes. To me having the VARS in play will probably ultimately give me my decision. They are unfiltered truth, and if she keeps pining/talking about the AP that will be the end. Like I said I am playing this slow, I have been in this 22 years I am just going by my gut and facts. Yes my kids are always first in my thoughts, but living in a disfunctional home is not the way to go either.

She gave me the timeline yesterday, took us about and hour & a half to go over. I did not say much just told her no sugar coating, or half truths just tell me everything. She went month my month which is started in late June with just text & calls and slowly ramped up into September/October. She was limited with COVID in play to really go out that much but I took a couple trips in September & October & that's when she did the most damage with the physical side of things. I had COVID in November so she was locked down with me & the kids and well all got it eventually her being the last one. Trying to work on her phone tonight not looking forward to that.

Everyday is a roller coaster as you all know, I am just doing my best to navigate this crappy hand I have been dealt.

[This message edited by CM70 at 11:35 AM, January 5th (Tuesday)]

First of all CM70 – I’m going to give your some good, hard advice: If anyone tells you that you HAVE to divorce/reconcile (one or the other) because that is the ONLY option that can ever work… Ignore them because they are idiots.

They can do so directly, as in YOU HAVE TO RECONCILE. They can do so indirectly, as in stating I can’t imagine a man dealing with and accepting what she has done and thereby implying you HAVE TO DIVORCE.

This site has numerous instances of successful reconciliation, numerous instances of successful divorce and – unfortunately – numerous instances of something that is neither reconciliation nor divorce. It’s that last group you should avoid IMHO.

We will be honest with you and share our views on if D or R is possible. Like if your WW remains in contact with OM, I don’t think R is possible and therefore D you better option. But still an OPTION rather than a predetermined only solution to all cases.

OK – on to your present situation:

I am a firm believer in free will. There is nothing forcing you to reconcile other than your will to do so. Same with your wife. She CAN go to OM if he really farts rainbows. I think it is quite important for BOTH of you to realize this. That you are trying to find grounds to reconcile solely and purely because you WANT to find grounds to reconcile. Nothing and nobody is forcing you.

I also think marriages can survive near-everything other than secrecy.

Frankly – if your wife shared NOW that she had taken part in an orgy at a swinger’s sex-club with OM then you could deal with that. It could impact you to divorce, it could impact you to reconcile. Could be a deal-breaker, or not…

But if you think you have the truth and work the hard work required to reconcile then learning 8 months from now that she and OM held hands in public… THAT could cause more damage at THAT time. Not only does it peel away the healing scabs, but also indicates she doesn’t trust you and that there could be more secrets…

Somehow get that over to her. That anything shared over the next week can help with reconciling, whereas anything discovered after that will diminish any will you have to reconcile.

One idea is to offer an amnesty-period. Frankly there is little cost to you to do so because the only thing keeping you to it is you. But if you tell her that by some certain day (like the 10th) you want the whole story, you want the complete discussion and all the answers and you commit to no decision on D until February. That once you feel safe in knowing you have the truth you want some time to digest it and then you will evaluate if you can imagine your life with her.

Regarding her workplace…

I do not think it’s normal or to be expected that people talk about their private life in negative terms or too explicitly at work. I do think that environment – as you describe it – is not a healthy environment for your wife. I have been working with the same group of people for over 10 years. I know their spouses, their kids names, if they have pets and so on, but I don’t have an inkling about their sex life or frequency or whatever. I would think that part of future reconciliation would be a serious reconsideration of her work-place.

Good job on the timeline, I hope you had her read it out loud to you. Tonight once you have her unlocked phone in your hands (you should have the password by now) tell her that the software will recover everything (show her ads by Dr Fone or Fonelab if necessary) including texts, emails, social media, etc., tell her this is her last and ONLY chance to come clean and be 100% honest, tell her a polygraph would follow soon, I would ask her to write down the top 10 worst things you will find in those texts/emails and that the M hangs in the balance, if she lies you will file for D (you have to mean it) if she tells the truth the chance to R will remain open for now but with no guarantees.

Did you ask her about the conversation she had with her parents and her reaction to it and the exposure ? her reaction is very important if you're considering R.

I suggest you talk to your doctor about the trauma you're living with day to day. Maybe get help with sleeplessness and anxiety (even for just 5 days gives you relief). Check your blood pressure too.

In view of the latest admission regarding 3rd base with the OM, inquire about STD testing and whether your kids are also at risk.

CM70 I totally understand your wish to see the texts and whatever other messenging on other platforms. My WH deleted everything and didn’t understand they could be recovered. He almost had a meltdown when the deleted messages started to come up.

It’s how I found out about the primary AP. One of them was calling me constantly and acting crazy. I can’t imagine how crazy she would be if she knew she was the side piece to the side piece (but I digress).

I just wanted to make the point that you can’t unsee what you read. I only read two fairly benign exchanges of hundreds but that was enough. It still plays on my mind. Just know that of course they said things, used endearments etc. They will send you crazy. If you can maybe put them on a USB for later but have a think about it before you read them.

She doesn’t need to know you haven’t gone through it line by line. It’s all about your well-being.

The following are suppositions, not facts.

A married women will usually let things progress physically (kissing, touching) when she has feelings for the OM. The OM probably showered her with compliments etc, she fell for him but was not quite there yet to let this progress to sex. At that stage, WW says positive things to the OM and negative things about their BH (to justify their Affair). This is very common and my guess is that what she’s worried about.

Maybe she has done sexting too.

This is not to excuse her of her behaviour, just an attempt at understanding what happened.

Her timeline contained factual information. Did she tell you how she felt about the OM?

Take her phone, then ask her about what you will recover. Go withBigger’s idea of amnesty. Once you have her phone, tell her that it would be best for her to tell you anything worrying on that phone before the recovery software (or the technician you hired for this) show you.

Was there any "I love you" ? Any bad mouthing of you? Any sexting? Any pictures at all? And offer to not divorce her for a month in exchange for the truth.

Thanks Knocked & Shutter, for your responses. I did get into the phone but recovered old texts but not from the AP. I am going to give it another go tonight if I can't get it myself I will take it into a tech. Knocked I know what you are saying about reading the the texts, once I see it/read it it will be etched in my brain.

Shutter yes there we ILY to the AP, many times verbally & text per my WW. That to me is the biggest problem more than anything. If it was just a fling or physical it would almost be easier to get past. I gave my wife a chance to tell me what the worse thing I was going to find before I tried to get in her phone. She said the worst would be the AP describing the physical encounter blow by blow to my wife as well as the deep descriptions of how much they felt for each other. No pics or anything like that, at least that is what she said.

The latest VAR conversation was between my WW & her best friend (the one going through her own D, and already has a rebound boyfriend) They talked about me going to her parents & siblings to tell them what was going on. The friend said that's bullshit he is just trying to turn your parents against you. My wife played that off & said I just whish we could have told them together. The best friend does like me a lot but she has had many messed up relationships. She is on divorce #2 she is no one my wife should be getting advice from on anything. The one thing lately is since bringing up D and telling our families what is going on there is no mention of the AP at all. That's if for now...

[This message edited by CM70 at 10:41 AM, January 6th (Wednesday)]

CM has your wife done anything proactive without you telling her?

1. Put herself in therapy?

2. Offered a postnuptial agreement?

3. Ordered any books on how to help you heal?

4. If she offered you any burner phone that she may have?

GJ on keeping on top the VAR

CM70, did you find out how the affair started? Who initially pursued who. The thing is, OM isn't a coworker whom she would have had regular contact with otherwise, she had to have been introduced to him. I'd be especially curious why they got in contact in the first place especially if their first contacts were all via text.

BigNoob,

Yes she has been in therapy for a few weeks already & has a session today. She keep trying to pull me into couples therapy & I have told her down the road (if I am still around) we could do that. She had been using our marriage as a reason she strayed, & I told her I don't want to hear that anymore. I had no idea there were any issues and I believe we had a stronger marriage than most of our friends. She never came to me until the end of November & said we were drifting apart and she was worried. Of course at the time I had no idea she had been having a few months EA that had turned into a PA.

She is currently reading "How to Help your Spouse heal from the Affair" by Linda MacDonald.

She does not have a burner phone, I would have caught that with VARS by now. I am tracking her with GPS & she usually goes to a park to discuss our situation with her Sister & Best Friend on her current phone.

Not sure what a Postnuptial agreement is? Please explain to the the BH newbie what that entails?

[This message edited by CM70 at 1:34 PM, January 6th (Wednesday)]