SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

What about the AP? Has she given you any hints about his intent?

OM are loath to give up an easy lay. It's hard to find a MW to put out.

He's put a lot of effort into this, so what's he doing? Laying low? Has he given up and been looking for another woman? Or does your wife think she meant a lot to him?

You ought not forget about him. Not for a while yet.

I am slightly confused - so what this a full on Physical Affair? What exactly does 3rd base mean (I have an idea - but just for clarification in this case)?

What exactly does 3rd base mean

third base

The third degree of the everlasting sexual bases metaphor. The best way to remember them is of course, the four "F"s. French, Feel, Finger, Fuck.

With his finger in Jenny's twat, he knew he had reached the coveted third base.

(Verbatim from a city type online dictionary)

Second base is above the waist, third, below.

I hope this helps.

I think there may be different descriptions on ‘3rd base’ in different social circles.

I have heard the 4 Fs......but in my social circle it was French, Feel/Finger, Fellatio, Fuck.

Not that it really makes a huge difference for OP.....

NONE of those should have been engaged in by his WW.

I have also heard the 3rd base term meaning different things before, that's why I asked for clarification but to me the vagina would be "home plate" unless of course "anal" is considered a different base, or maybe "grand slam" perhaps or would that be reserved for a "gang bang", anyway thanks for bringing the more accurate slang/idiom meaning from an online dictionary.

While I don't want to get into to much on third base. She just said fingering, no BJ or any other thing.

The AP is lying low, I am watching trust me on that he only lives about a mile away. I told the WW if he comes anywhere near I will bludgeon him. I am physically much bigger than him by at least 50 lbs.

I did not get much on the VAR's for some reason other than my wife had been unhappy for a while. Like I said earlier 2020 was a shit year at work, and I was not my normal self due to the stress and dealing with office politics. I was some what distant at home & just kind of ignored the normal bickering type of things couples deal with in a long term relationship. They did talk about me and how things had shifted recently with me moving forward with the paperwork for D. The WW said she would do anything to save the marriage but was not sure I would forgive her to move forward to R. I don't like her shrink as they really never talked about infidelity just that I need to forgive & forget. The shrink also said I had no right to go to her parents and that was personal thing between us. My wife did defend me & say that I am really close to her parents so she kind of understood why I did that. I was thinking in my head all bets are off as she cheated in my marriage which is about personal as it Fing gets.

I am very, very tired and am trying to get into my Dr. to get something to help me sleep. That is wreaking more havoc on my mental & physical health right now...

[This message edited by CM70 at 12:50 PM, January 7th (Thursday)]

Sounds like her IC is a wayward and she is doing your WW zero good in being accountable.

1st kissing

2nd petting

3rd oral

4th piv

Honestly it sounds like your wife is making the baby steps towards accepting responsibility for what she's done but is getting a lot of crap advice, from friends and from her therapist.

Given your description of her parent's reaction, and how that has affected her, talking with them about it was 100% the right thing to do. It doesn't sound like your mother in law pulled any punches.

As far as your tiredness/fatigue, this sort of thing is exhausting, mentally and physically. It's like finding out someone you love is dying, it just pulls so much out of you. Definitely talk to a doctor and take care of yourself.

IMO, the therapist's feedback shows he doesn't have a lot of long term success and/or experience with infidelity.

Right now in the short term you're getting good insight into your wife's thinking.

However, he's not helping her.

At some point (after you've learned enough and without admitting that you know anything for sure) consider informing your wife that if her therapist expects you to in anyway accept responsibility for her decision to cheat & lie 24/7 and/or he expects you to just forgive & forget then she needs to find another therapist.

She needs a therapist that encourages her to accept full responsibility, dig deep as to why she did it, and then develop a plan of action on her part that convinces you she's a safe partner (and won't do it again 4 years from now).

Otherwise, she will not become a safe partner and you will not trust her again.

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 2:24 PM, January 7th (Thursday)]

Your WW's therapist sounds like the one my ex-wife went to many years ago. I was told to get over her affair two weeks after I found out. What utter crap. Forgive and forget. Wow. These therapists need to be cheated on to see how quickly they can "forgive and forget." Maybe you should go have an affair and apologize. Then your wife would have to forgive and forget. I'll bet you dollars to donuts her therapist wouldn't put it quite that way if you did it.

[This message edited by src9043 at 2:30 PM, January 7th (Thursday)]

CM 70

If you can try and have a convo with your wife about therapy, and ask her if her therapist has and specialty dealing with it. A lot of therapist just "wing it", if possible look around and make a recommendation. This therapist is useless! and hurts even the slightest chance for R.

Have you gotten yourself into therapy yet?

CM70 - It does sound positive at least based on what you wrote the steps your WW is taking to rectify this situation. She has been siding with you both to her friend and to the therapist, that is a positive. Many times, the WWs just defend their own actions, in this case, it really sounds like she gets it.

Keep on being vigilant, but it does sound positive. On the Var, I don't know how much you want to hear her discussions with the IC. I think at some point, individuals do need to have someone to vent to, whether that be their best girlfriend or an IC, and that may not be super helpful to you. You probably have some gripes about your wife you tell you guy friends, and those don't really need to be shared back to your Wife, its just a vent. I think at some point you should stop listening to the conversations between your WW and her IC. You can ask her and she'll tell you what she discussed, but I think its good to let them have their space and time to discuss their own feelings, and not all of it should be shared back with you. Of course she should disclose the affair, but some things are best left between her IC and her. Just like you may have some gripes to you IC, and they don't all need to go back to the WW either.

There was something that bothered me about this from the other day:

My WW Mom sent me a text today saying that my WW cried for 2 hours confessing of what she had done & that she is terrified she is going to lose me & how ashamed she is.

I am sure your MIL told you that to try and indicate that your WW is sorry for what she did, but it seems more like she was crying because she is sorry for herself. Feeling ashamed is all about her, and so is worrying about losing her marriage.

The evidence of a significant shift out of that self-centered thinking will be when she cries for two hours about what she did to you, what you are going through, and the impact a divorce might have on the kids, not the way she feels or what she may lose.

The WW said she would do anything to save the marriage but was not sure I would forgive her to move forward to R.

Given that she is reading "How to Help Your Spouse Heal", has she actually come up with any suggestions or a plan for what she is going to do or change to save the marriage? It was only recently she was blaming the marriage for her unhappiness and need to cheat, but now she says she is desperate to save it.

It is easy for anyone to say, "I would do anything", it makes them sound good, but unless she is suggesting actual changes and actions, and demonstrating changes in her thinking, the statement is just words.

If she is so keen to save the marriage, how bad can it have been? Again, this blows her statements about the marriage being the cause of her cheating out of the water.

Whether or not she felt bored or unhappy, there are dozens of things she could have done about that. Her decision to cheat was totally separate and unrelated. Trying to connect them is an attempt by her to play the victim in a situation where she was very much a perpetrator and active participant.

There is also some blame-shifting and putting the onus on you in saying she was prepared to do anything BUT YOU might not forgive her. That makes you responsible for whether or not the marriage can be saved, which she believes requires you forgiving her. She had the affair, but what will destroy the marriage is you not forgiving her.

The way she frames it makes you the bad guy, and suggests she is not prepared to do the required work until after you forgive her, which is almost a form of bargaining.

I am sad about that, because she has got it the wrong way round.

What she should be doing is actively demonstrating and suggesting changes and actions to make you feel more secure, which could make you more confident to consider reconciliation, and perhaps eventual forgiveness.

She seems to want reconciliation and forgiveness before she does anything. Like she wants a guarantee of a prize before she competes. Life does not work that way.

Perhaps at some point you could ask her to list she is going to change, and what she is going to do, if she thinks there is any future for the marriage. That will call her bluff if she did not mean it about doing anything to save the marriage, and encourage her to make a positive start if she really meant it.

I don't like her shrink as they really never talked about infidelity just that I need to forgive & forget.

That is atrocious advice for any counselor or psychiatrist to be giving to anyone. You do not tell a victim of abuse to forgive and forget, because it invalidates their feelings, and makes them the bad guy. Would the shrink say that to a female victim of sexual assault?

Beyond its inappropriateness, it is totally counter-productive when it comes to motivating your wife to take ownership of what she did to cause your pain, and to investigate why she thought it was fine to do that.

It sounds like the shrink is just going to stroke your wife's ego and blame you, which is great for your wife, but useless in terms of healing the marriage or fixing the reasons your wife cheated.

The shrink also said I had no right to go to her parents and that was personal thing between us. My wife did defend me & say that I am really close to her parents so she kind of understood why I did that.

Another terrible and erroneous opinion from the shrink, once again making you the villain of the peace. However, what is interesting is that this is the second example of your wife not taking issue with what you did. She has no right to, but both her friend and this sorry excuse for a counselor suggested you were in the wrong, and she said you were not. That is at least a sign that she is not totally in lala-land about everything.

I am very, very tired and am trying to get into my Dr. to get something to help me sleep. That is wreaking more havoc on my mental & physical health right now.

That is very wise. Your well-being has to be your primary concern, and if you can see this affecting you badly, please do explain everything to your doctor.

Take it a day at a time, CM70, and please be good to yourself.

Yet another shitty therapist.

The only person who did anything "outside of their rights" was your cheating wife.

Dude, if the therapist talks to you like that you should tell her that she doesn't get to tell you shit, you're not a cheater looking to get out of trouble.

Your wife defended you - it's a poor defense "He's close to my parents" and she probably doesn't defend you like that when you are not in the room.

The real truth is that your wife completely violated your trust and it is your right to tell whoever that you want to, but in particular the people with whom you and your wife share relationships with.

Finally, tell your wife she has to drop this therapist.

I did not get much on the VAR's for some reason other than my wife had been unhappy for a while. Like I said earlier 2020 was a shit year at work, and I was not my normal self due to the stress and dealing with office politics. I was some what distant at home & just kind of ignored the normal bickering type of things couples deal with in a long term relationship. They did talk about me and how things had shifted recently with me moving forward with the paperwork for D. The WW said she would do anything to save the marriage but was not sure I would forgive her to move forward to R. I don't like her shrink as they really never talked about infidelity just that I need to forgive & forget. The shrink also said I had no right to go to her parents and that was personal thing between us. My wife did defend me & say that I am really close to her parents so she kind of understood why I did that. I was thinking in my head all bets are off as she cheated in my marriage which is about personal as it Fing gets.

The problem with some counselors is that they seek to minimize the damage from a betrayal. They also try and make it out like not as bad a thing as the betrayer may think. To me, that’s counterproductive.

I also disagree with the notion you shouldn’t tell family. Deeds done in the dark need to be exposed. It’s only when they are brought out into the light that the betrayer sees their deeds for what they really are.

Another thought- all marriages have dry or rough patches. The key is how is it handled. She chose to betray you rather than communicate and work thru it together. That’s a personal trait and it’s dangerous. It also shows a total lack of commitment and love.

I think you’re doing fine so far. She has a shitty counselor and so-so friends (at best). One thing I believe is that she cannot heal you- you have to if you’re up for it. She needs to fix herself on her own and prove to you her friendship, love and commitment before any R could possibly work.

Now, I am NOT recommending this, but an acquaintance of mine was in a similar situation wherein her husband was adamant there was no intercourse and she didn’t believe him. She used his email and sent one to his AP and stated something like his wife is demanding to know about the sex and what does he say. By the third email the POS OP caught on, but it could get you an answer (up or down) on the sex stuff. Just a thought. And if you did this and he catches on, end by saying, “Yeah, I’ll be seeing you around. Keep an eye over your shoulder.”

[This message edited by thatbpguy at 4:47 PM, January 7th (Thursday)]

I recall she spoke to the OM for 50 minutes after you confronted her. That's a long time just to say it's over.

Without admitting you have access to the phone records, did you ask her about when & what they talked about on their 'final' talk?

She's been exposed, her fantasy blown up, and she's in IC, ... if she's making progress towards being a safe partner she should be willing to answer all questions about the affair - including their last conversation. And it could be covered by the polygraph.

For example, what was discussed (plenty over 50 minutes), did she tell him: she is ashamed, loves her husband and wants to save her marriage, and that she never wants to see him or hear from him again?

I'm thinking like Robert above....

45 Minutes with AP???

Does that sound like NC to you?

She's in the fog, total limerance and having a great difficulty in detaching from that toxic piece of garbage.

When is that going to end?

You need to ask her.

My H spoke for 73 minutes with the OW to end it.

Ask me if it really ended.

Dday2 was to be expected.

God man. I just read your posts straight thru like a novel.

That bridges of Madison county thing had to be soul crushing.

Funny how it’s gone from how she has met her her soulmate who she loves to she will do anything to save the M.

Now it’s gone to saying that if the M fails it will be your fault as you can’t let it go. And her shrink is enabling this narrative and her friend is jumping your shit.

All in 30 days. Oh, and it went from just talking to just kissing to just masturbation. Cuz ya know, she has standards.

And oh yeah, 20 year M out the widow cuz you have a bad few months at work. So who can blame her?

I respect your strength of character. A lot of guys would have sent her packing. Keep doing what you are doing. For you.

As for her, I don’t see baby steps toward R. I see her being pulled through a keyhole, minimizing and deflecting all the way. And going thru the motions until you tire of it all so she can blame you. Sure hope I’m wrong but I shudder at what the next month will bring.

How are your poor kids doing? Surely they are not clueless.