SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

While you should not disclose how you know I recommend you make a clear simple honest statement to her:

“It is clear to me that you love another man and are not in love with me. I deserve to be first in my partner’s heart mind and soul and not her plan B. I won’t stand in the way of your true love. Therefore I will be filing for divorce and we will find an age Appropriate way to tell the kids that mom has fallen in love with someone else but that we each still love them. I wish you well in finding what you want. “

Then stop talking about it. It’s of no use in her current state of mind. Find and start working with a divorce lawyer and an individual counselor who specializes in emotional trauma.

At some point down the road if she gets her head out of her ass and you can confirm it via the VAR then maybe you can consider trying to repair and rebuild with her. But in her present state of mind your old relationship is gone. I’m sorry.

I wish you well.

CM

This will be long and meander about a bit…

What age are your kids? If this ends in divorce, then you definitely let them know in an age-appropriate and as non-alienating way as possible why you are divorcing. This has to be done extremely carefully for so many reasons. For now, just accept that it has to be done, don’t bother talking to your wife about it or arguing about why and if. IF you decide to go for divorce then at some point on the walk along that path this becomes a milestone. We can guide you on when and how if and when it comes to that point. Chances are we will suggest you do so directly without your wife’s participation or involvement.

So far there isn’t really anything unique or unexpected in your WW behavior.

I have never really understood the flash-in-the-pan, instant, happens like a bolt of thunder expectation many have that a spouse that is in an affair does a total 180 change the moment or instant the affair is discovered. I think it’s a gradual process, a process that can take TIME. Like I think a WS can only show true remorse – as opposed to the remorse of getting caught – once they realize the damage caused and that only happens some months after R starts.

Keep in mind that the affair took time to develop. There is nothing sensible or logical about infidelity, yet they do it. This isn’t like breaking your diet by eating a slice of cake; something that could be explained by a spur-of-the-moment decision. This is more comparable to being on a diet and yet reading cake recopies, selecting one, obsessing about it, buying the ingredients, baking it, eating a slice, hiding the rest…

Maybe it’s better to explain this using a very common comparison here on SI:

We often compare infidelity to addictions. Let’s imagine your wife had a drinking problem. When you confront her she minimizes, but once you point out that three times in the last 12 months she’s gone out for an evening with the girls and not come home for 72 hours (the three visits to OM city) and that daily she’s finishing off 2 bottles of white and some gin. She acknowledges she has a problem. Only her suggestion is that she stops going out. Or only drink white wine. Or only drink one bottle per day. Or only drink 2 bottles of white every second day. Or only quit for a week and see how it goes.

Fortunately, you are at a stage where you tell her no, it’s total abstinence. One reason you are so insistent is that you have access to a group of people that have walked in your shoes and they are telling you that total abstinence is necessary.

So, she agrees to stop drinking/ending the affair.

Any person that has dealt with a dry alcoholic will agree that initially the most important step is simply not drinking. If you are acceptably secure that she is not texting, phoning, e-mailing or in contact with OM… you are in a relatively good place. If this was alcohol then you would feel safer if your wife didn’t drink, nor did she spend time looking at the bottles or walking up and down the booze aisles at the store. If, however you came across your wife staring at a bottle it should and would make your doubt her commitment – sort of like discovering she’s been looking at OM Facebook page.

Any person that has dealt with a dry alcoholic will also share that without help and guidance sobriety isn’t likely to happen. Any recovered alcoholic will probably agree that the hardest steps were the ones leading to the first AA meeting, followed by the steps of starting and committing to 12-step work with a sponsor. All YOU – the person impacted by her affair – can do is demand she takes those steps. Maybe guide her in the right direction. But SHE needs to take them.

I think that right now she’s afraid of taking those steps…

That’s OK. But just like the alcoholic then if she doesn’t take those steps she will relapse.

The big difference between you and her is the support you have.

The reason you have support is because you shared with us – and based on our advice – with your in-laws and family. You are in the right. I don’t get a sense that her mom or sister or friend encouraged the affair or suggested she follow through on it. She’s not getting the support she expected – or rather the FORM of support she expected. Nobody is understanding or supporting or justifying her affair, because most people realize it is wrong.

Then there is the guilt – the admission of wrong…

It’s basic human nature to minimize and justify our wrong actions.

On my first week as a police officer my mentor suggested that I note that no matter the infringement or crime then whomever we were dealing with would minimize and/or justify their actions. This turned out to be true in nearly all instances, ranging from speeders that “were only following traffic”, DUI’s that “only had a beer” or “Gee… I guess I have the flu”, spouse beaters that claimed it was self-defense, pushers that “only sold those that want drugs”, rapists who said “she wanted it rough and enjoyed it”.

It was an extremely rare occurrence where somebody simply raised their arm and simply acknowledged that they had done wrong and shouldered the blame fair and square. Generally, those that did were people I only dealt with once as a cop.

One of the reasons – and probably the MAIN reason – your WW talks about missing feelings towards you and all that is to justify to herself her decision to have an affair.

It’s a lot easier for your WW to convince yourself that she had an affair because her emotions towards you were flat and that they became flat because you were distant or inattentive and that the affair “just happened” rather than admit the truth. Truth being she deliberately at every stage of the process decided to take it one step further along the road of infidelity despite knowing at each turn what consequences that decision might have. That she was getting some form of validation from OM or the affair that was neither healthy, sensible or logical. Sort of like when teenagers sniff glue. It’s a lot easier to say I was misled rather than I was wrong.

A key to personal reconciliation is when your wife simply acknowledges that her affair was totally 100% on her. She had options, she had choices but SHE decided to have the affair. Whatever you did or did not do, the state of the marriage… still her decision to go THAT route rather than a healthier and saner route. The actions or attentions of OM… still her decision to encourage it and follow through.

This brings another key issue: The affair was a choice and a decision. It didn’t just happen. There was a series of choices and decisions that led her to where she was. At any time or point along that path she could have made another more sensible and moral choice. Heck… a BETTER choice would have been to tell you she was divorcing so she could chase after OM. A BETTER choice would have been to ask you if you were OK with her dating OM. At least those two choices would have given you options up-front.

This decision and choice is very important. If your wife was walking with you along the pavement and slipped on a banana peel that would be an accident. If however she saw a banana peel ahead and purposely changed direction and timed her pace to step on it then her slip is no longer an accident – it’s a consequence of her decisions.

Your ability to monitor her and listen in… It’s a double edged sword.

Sometimes she’s only venting yet you probably focus on the negativity. Sometimes thoughts are best spoken, because hearing them sometimes makes the speaker better understand they are wrong.

What’s best about the ability is to monitor if there is any ongoing contact.

Then there is the fantasy and drama of infidelity… That in itself can become a drug.

Have a good understanding of what divorce would be like. Even if you don’t want to divorce. Look at it like learning CPR. You do it as a precaution. When you realize what that path really means and what it enables and allows it also makes you more aware of how delicate the marriage is and therefore the level of care and attention it needs to survive.

Remember how I told you to tell her she was free to be with OM? Well… She is also free to file. As are you. Neither of you needs the others permission or even acceptance to divorce. You don’t need to be long on SI to find numerous posters that claim they can’t divorce because of money or the kids or the pension or the or the or the…, or will divorce once the kids leave or that they are divorcing and have been for a very very long time while still living a married life… There are things worse than divorce or reconciling IMHO, namely remaining by choice in untreated or undealt infidelity…

My advice for NOW and the next days – maybe even week – is this:

Let things calm down a bit.

Be careful not to replace the fantasy and drama of infidelity with the fantasy and drama of either reconciling or divorce. Don’t go about all sad and moping – YOU have a goal. Your goal is to get out of infidelity. For the moment there is plenty for you to do irrespective of what she wants. There is no rush.

Even if you want to file then divorce isn’t like it has to be done today. There is loads of preparation. It’s not like you need to file first and then get copies of tax-returns, check your accounts and cards, learn your state’s laws on divorce and so on. You can prepare and then file once you are committed to that being your path.

I would also expand the circle that knows. Basically all stakeholders that can impact your wife. This is totally irrespective of if you D or R. If you R then their help might make R possible. If you D then it won’t make any difference since D will always alter the group of stakeholders in your life.

Start making the possibility of D real. Don’t make joint purchases – that car won’t be renewed, those reservations to Disney not paid, that boat not bought. Cancel plans to joint events: “I’m sorry I won’t be there. My wife has chosen her infidelity over our marriage so I wont be at the family reunion”. This is not done to shame but rather to make the affair real and the consequences of the affair real.

Make it totally clear to her that you are getting out of infidelity. You are maybe not 100% clear if that will be through divorce, but that she too has a choice and can impact your decision. If she wants the marriage, then she needs to convince you about that. The only thing that is 100% clear is that there is no way this marriage can survive if she is not 100% committed to it. While her decision is not clear then carry on with all the necessary steps for divorce – only skip the drama. Also make it very clear that YOU are moving on and the further along YOU go the less inclined you will be to slow down or turn things around. Her inaction will eventually force you to take the fork in the path called Divorce that eventually gets you out of infidelity.

Finally: I will never suggest making divorce harder than it needs to be but get rid of any “amicable let’s be friends” ideas. Divorce is by it’s very nature a confrontation and even amicable divorces are rough. Aim at having it fair. Best way to have it fair is for you to consult an attorney and have a good understanding of what to expect. I am fairly certain that in divorce the 80/20 rule applies: 80% of the cost is spent arguing over 20% of the value, and that tends to be value that either is entitled to but the other refutes. The laws tend to be clear and – for example: if she’s entitled to half your savings then that’s probably what she will end with, no matter how much you ask your attorney to refute it.

[This message edited by Bigger at 7:45 AM, January 12th (Tuesday)]

Bigger's post is excellent and something I think you should read multiple times.

I also suggest you speak to your attorney about drawing up a postnup (or maybe it's called something else) in event of a divorce.

Mentally, your wife is probably at her most reasonable now with respect to agreeing to a 'fair' postnup/pre-divorce settlement.

Plus it also makes the possibility of divorce real to her and makes a strong statement that you are willing (and actually planning) for divorce in the event she fails to convince you that she's a safe life partner, including being 100% into you.

Finally, from your posts you don't want to be plan B or for her to stay for the kids, or public opinion, or because you offer a nice comfortable life style.

Therefore, she needs to see you as the reason for staying - so (although it feels good to throw it at her) avoid any further discussion of how stupid, selfish, shameful and cruel her behavior is. Enough has been said to her about that.

Experience shows that you taking the high road, being civil and taking definitive (no tears) steps to exit infidelity (leaving her behind & on her own with her low life cheater friends) not only protects you but also is the most successful strategy to save your marriage (if that's what you decide).

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 12:22 PM, January 12th (Tuesday)]

Thanks Bigger & Stevesn, great concise advice. I don't have a lot of time to post right now. But funny/not funny text I sent her this morning "I am canceling our trip to Cape Coral (in April)". Her,

"because of Covid?" Me, "No because of our situation". Her, "Oh can we talk about that toghether?"

Really?

[This message edited by CM70 at 1:46 PM, January 12th (Tuesday)]

Look man, I won’t write you an essay like Bigger. He’s the OG. What I will say though, is that based on the VAR you caught of the conversation with her sister, this is all but over.

You set red lines along the way. You can go back and read them. That VAR conversation crossed several of them, and even hinted that others were crossed (the bit about the texts being terrible).

The point of this forum is to take in diverse perspectives. My perspective is that I could quote you to yourself, compare it to what your WW said on VAR, and many of your “if she says or does X it’s over” conditions would have been met.

If you’re going to stay with this woman, I anticipate you’ll spend the rest of your life moving the goalposts. Your kids will notice, and it won’t be good for them.

If you’re done and are settled on D, and haven’t recorded over the last revelation, I would play it for her and ask her why she can’t be honest with you after everything she’s done to you done. She should know that you know who she really is after all.

I disagree. CM70 has gained valuable intel from the VARs, and regardless of his decision to D or R, they may continue to prove useful. Giving up that source at this point is not a good idea. The VARs may find renewed contact with OM, or they may show CM70's WW beginning to find some real remorse. There is sure to be more pain from listening to them, but if WW continues to reveal truth to others while putting on an act with CM70, he deserves to know. Wanting her to "know that he knows" is natural, but pointless in the end.

Of course, as already noted, the other possibility is that a VAR picks up evidence of the WW planning to divorce. I have recent experience with that, even though my deal is relatively ancient history. FWW was acting "distant", and on a whim I picked up the Sony ICD-PX470. Wasn't really thinking I had any reason to use it, but after a dustup Sunday morning, I tossed it into one of the seat-back pockets in her car. Boom. A 15-minute drive and she's talking about getting her ducks in a row and divorcing after our youngest leaves the nest in 2 years. Worse yet, she's doing this with said 16yr old. So now I know, and that's awful on many levels, but confirms she's still lying and that there never really was any remorse at all. Really wish I had known that 4 years ago.

You have had some excellent advice recently, though all of us wish the situation did not require it.

I think this...

Her, "Oh can we talk about that together?"

...really goes to the heart of the problem, because what your wife says to you is always different to what she says to her various confidantes.

You had what appeared to be a nice trip to the movies with the kids, your WW held your hand, put her head on your shoulder, and then afterwards told her sister she wished you would find her messages because that would end the relationship.

I think everyone who read that would have had a "WTF???" moment. You must feel like you are dealing with two different people; the person your wife presents to you, and the person she is when she thinks you are not listening.

It is an awkward situation, because you know so much more than you can let on, and your wife is play-acting rather than being genuinely honest or owning her actions.

That is why I think this advice from Bigger is very, very appropriate:

My advice for NOW and the next days – maybe even week – is this: Let things calm down a bit.

The main reason I say that is because talking at the moment is unlikely to achieve anything real.

I apologize for putting it this way, but it is almost like an exercise from a drama class, where both of you are playing roles; the private investigator who knows more than he can let on, interviewing a femme fatale pretending she is not planning a crime.

Perhaps it is time to say something to her like, "We both know you are not being honest with me, and you are not being honest with yourself. Both of us need you to be honest, or we are just going to go in circles, getting nowhere. And we cannot do that for much longer".

Re. cancelling the trip, I think it was the right thing to do. I suspect your wife is trying to limit the damage that her actions are causing, and avoid facing the consequences of her actions. Until what she says to her friends and what she says to you are similar, and she is capable of being honest with you, what would the point of a trip like that be?

In fact, you could even suggest that to her; "Until you can be honest with me, there is no point to do anything like that, because there will be no truth in it".

If you stick to the theme that your gut tells you she is not being honest with you, you can push for honesty without revealing what you know, or how you know it.

Thanks Bigger & Stevesn, great concise advice. I don't have a lot of time to post right now. But funny/not funny text I sent her this morning "I am canceling our trip to Cape Coral (in April)". Her,

"because of Covid?" Me, "No because of our situation". Her, "Oh can we talk about that toghether?"

No, we will not about it together. I want out of your infidelity.

"I am canceling our trip to Cape Coral (in April)". Her,

"because of Covid?" Me, "No because of our situation". Her, "Oh can we talk about that toghether?"

CM 70 I hope you have the rose-colored glasses off at this point. Your wife is selfish, she only cares about her image and what other people think about her. taking no accountability what so ever, she expects you to magically read her mind and know she is not happy. Why is she telling everybody how she actually feels instead of her husband? You don't have a magical power that can read minds.

How is it going with actually filing for divorce?

BigNoob, yep they are off. I am going to be talking to my lawyer early next week, as I had not started the paperwork yet. Caught another VAR conversation last night and it was again brutal, so I can't do this anymore. Basically pining for the AP again, comparing me to him. By the way he got the personality & she says this is superficial

but physical shape, and I got dependable, great provider, caring, & great Dad. Also on the VAR she talks about wanting to call him, but she knows she cant. Said something to the affect, well I could call him from my work phone but I won't. Also said she thought about dropping him off a letter.

This started last night when she came home she looked like crap. Even my thirteen year old who is oblivious asked her if she was OK? When she went to bed I said rough day (had not listened to the VAR yet) she said yes I said you were thinking about him weren't you? Looks down & away no response, then says she is trying but she just can't turn off her feelings. Me "let's just end this", her no we are going to make it work. etc etc. I ended up walking out. This morning I ignore her in the master bathroom as we are getting ready, I am on the computer after this and she tries to hug me & I back away and say no, tries again and I back away again. She seems stunned, & I walk away. Then later I am sitting with the kids and she goes down the line & kisses us all, sais she loves me & I don't respond.

Just a bit ago she texts me this: I will do anything I can to work on our marriage. I am dedicated to you and gaining back your trust & love. We need to be able to talk to each other and lean on each other and that's why I let you know my feelings last night, but I can see I hurt you deeply. I am so sorry.

I would love to play the highlight of all her VAR conversations back to her but it's probably not the best move while working on divorce paperwork and trying to minimize the damage.

[This message edited by CM70 at 9:41 AM, January 14th (Thursday)]

She has shown you who she has become. How the HELL will you ever feel anything other then 2nd base on her ball team, ever? Have you talked to your lawyer about releasing the information you know?

SlapNuts, yes that is one of the conversations I was going to have with my lawyer but in my state I believe it is illegal to record phone conversations without consent. I would guess he would say keep it yourself & don't let her know you have been recording her.

By the way he got the personality & physical attributes boxes, and I got dependable, great provider, caring, & great Dad.

Tale as old as time. Sorry you had to hear that, but I'm ultimately glad you did, because you got exactly the confirmation you needed. In a healthy marriage (traditionally), the husband is both the lover and the provider. When women cheat, it is almost always a product of their ceasing to see their partner as the former, or admitting to themselves they never saw him that way to begin with. Some people will call that "red-pill," or whatever other terms they'd like to throw out there to dismiss it, but it is something I've seen repeated OVER AND OVER.

You should not have to compete for your wife's attraction. I respect the fact that you are choosing to maintain your dignity rather than play the pick me dance, which would only further exacerbate the issue.

There's a woman out there who will swoon when she sees you have an awesome dad moment, and will ALSO want to rip your clothes off once the kids are asleep. I'm sure that's the last thing on your mind right now, but you're not doomed to find yourself in this situation again.

Again, for what it's worth, I respect you. One day your children will benefit immensely from your backbone. Even if they never know the details, the way you carry yourself and all of the sub-communication will show them both how they should treat others, and how to know what sort of treatment to expect from others.

Imagine if you hadn't set up the VAR. She'd be putting on the happy face for you and playing the character to keep your resources and security in her life, all the while pining for the OM like a clown. I hope this serves as a wakeup call for any other BS reading who are sticking their heads in the sand rather than investigating properly.

[This message edited by Dignitas at 9:38 AM, January 14th (Thursday)]

CM70

Basically pining for the AP again, comparing me to him. By the way he got the personality & physical attributes boxes, and I got dependable, great provider, caring, & great Dad.

I know it sucks to hear this, but it is great that you have clarity on what she truly thinks. In the end, we are what we are. I’ll never be 6’ 4”, “gorgeous”, and have a dick like a donkey (maybe TMI, but maybe relevant to what you heard). I’m a pretty average guy physically, and I’ve accepted that. It’s OK if you’re too because a guy who is an average physical specimen with the other attributes you listed is more than enough for some women.

I think your path to D is the right one. Let your STBXW find out just how much value she should’ve placed on a partner who is: dependable, great provider, caring, and a great dad. I wonder how much she’ll pine for those traits once she no longer has a partner with them.

Sanib, back in the day I was somewhat of a specimen (not trying to brag) but 23 years in this relationship I have slipped up and gained some extra weight. She is not what she was when we met either it's called aging...

Well, she's obviously not the brightest bulb at Loew's, (What cheaters are?) there are other ways to get the point across. Tell her you can see it in her eyes, feel it in her presence and hear it in her voice that she feels AP is the love she desires so greatly. Tell her that is why you are proceeding with a D.

What are your thoughts on starting the 180 after the consult and separating yourself for now from your abuser?

[This message edited by SlapNutsABingo at 10:19 AM, January 14th (Thursday)]

There's a woman out there who will swoon when she sees you have an awesome dad moment, and will ALSO want to rip your clothes off once the kids are asleep. I'm sure that's the last thing on your mind right now, but you're not doomed to find yourself in this situation again.

I wonder if this was a site dealing with the bereavement of losing a loved one.

Would we be OK with advice that we should just get over it, there are plenty of future spouses out there? Or that you can just go and make a new child?

CM70

...I have slipped up and gained some extra weight. She is not what she was when we met either it's called aging...

Oh, I get that. You are not alone in that boat. What was it I recently heard? Seventy percent of US adults are overweight or something like that, and other industrialized nations are showing similar trends. Have you started exercising more during this stressful time? I’d imagine it would do you a world of good in many ways, and if it helps you get in better shape physically too that’s not a bad thing.

Yes I have been exercising almost everyday & went to a 18:6 intermittent fasting over the last 6 weeks down about 6 lbs and body is feeling better even with the lack of sleep & stress!

[This message edited by CM70 at 10:25 AM, January 14th (Thursday)]

As I recommended at the top of this page you don’t have to reveal your source to bluntly tell your wife that you know her and can tell she is in love with another man and you are letting her go and pursue her heart. The VAR is for your purposes only. But you can use the information as you have to know exactly how to proceed.

Continue not to play her games. I don’t think she’ll ever get her head out of her ass, but even if she does do you ever want to be again with a Woman who so plainly states that at best she cares about you but is no longer in love with you.

Again, plainly telling her you can tell where her heart lies and that once divorced she is free to pursue it is the best path for you. No need for any more in depth talks. Tell her that it makes not sense to work on your marriage while her love is pointed directly at another person.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 10:49 AM, January 14th (Thursday)]