SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I wish I had constructive advice to offer you that could change the outcome. You should go see an IC that specializes in infidelity. Her continued loyalty to the OM leaves you little option but to file for divorce. The fact that she says she has been unhappy in the marriage prior to the affair is the clincher in my mind. But that is probably an after-the-affair rationalization. One last thing you could try. Do not argue or fight with her anymore. Stop talking about the OM and your marriage. Be civil and friendly, but not intimate in any way. Act as if you are now her roommate and not her husband. Prepare for the future without her and subtly let her know about it. Serve her with divorce papers. Casually tell her that she will be served shortly. Project someone who is cheerful and relieved. Go out without her. If she starts questioning you, tell her this is what you wanted and now I am going to move forward without you. I would save that until after she is served. If that doesn't knock her back to reality, kick her ass out of the house and send her to the OM with a pink ribbon wrapped around her. But, at this point, even if she gets her head out of the clouds, do you really want to be with her?

[This message edited by src9043 at 6:39 PM, January 16th (Saturday)]

WTBFA

My statement to my cheating H on dday2 was very short. This was after 6 months of him demanding a D because he was “unhappy” (mid life crisis affair in reality).

Calm and rational. Said in 15 seconds snd left the room.

“I am D you. I’m sorry it has come to this but you left me no other choice. I have nothing left to give to this marriage. You are free to be with the OW or anyone else you choose.”

And I left the room.

He got the message.

I would hold off on pulling the VAR until after you serve her the papers. Not too long, but it will let you gauge if she immediately goes back to him, if she suddenly sees the light, or if she continues to wallow in indecisiveness and self pity. I'd give it a week or so after, that should be all you need, then pull them and get rid of them.

Stay the course with the D. Maybe you get lucky and she pulls her head out of her ass and realized how stupid and selfish she's been. Odds are though she continues down the path of wanting a good father and bread winner and a fantasy land love affair. If that's the case there's nothing you can do but take care of yourself and your family. Good luck man.

Stay in control and keep the focus on you as the victim of her infidelity (including her lies to your face).

IMO a very simple but powerful statement to reply and/or address to her is:

"I deserve a better life partner."

[This message edited by Robert22205https at 12:00 PM, January 17th (Sunday)]

Well said.

"I deserve a better life partner."

One day at a time.

Thanks everyone for the continued support. The weekend was rather quite we did take the kids out for pizza. But get this we ran into my brother & sister & law at the pizza place. Since I told my siblings about her affair my wife was very nervous since this is the first time she had seen any of my family since I told them. It gave her a little taste of her future which was interesting to watch My Brother was gracious & talked to my kids more than anything.

In response to 1965's questions yes she is still in affair fog & I have recently stopped even trying to talk her off the ledge. She has no plan or realistic sense of a future with the AP. I caught a conversation with her Mom & her on the VAR. My WW is still hoping her original counselor she is seeing will get her out of this but she sucks so bad that's not going to happen. Anyway her mother is trying to guide her & not tell her she is an idiot but saying are you sure this is real and you aren't living in a Utopia? My WW still is almost seeking permission from her asking if it would be bad if she called him (AP) to see what his intentions would be if the things didn't work out with me (CM70)? So she is almost hedging her bets at this point to have somewhere soft to land.

She is going to see a new shrink who specializes in infidelity tomorrow so we will see what that brings. The scariest thing in the VAR conversations that is a trend is everything is about her & how it effects her. Every once & awhile she says it will be devastating to the kids & me but 90% of the conversations are about her feelings & no one else. The other thing is she never discusses a plan, of where she would live or how it would affect her financially. How do you not address that? I have already been looking at houses on Zillow for when I downsize & sell the house I am in!

CM70,

Wow, what a depressing update. Stay strong.

It sounds like her Mom is trying to lead her off the ledge. What about her sister? If enough people (including the new shrink) start to contradict her fantasy, maybe she can turn it around. She sounds pretty self centered, so that's probably a long shot.

Do you still plan to serve her with divorce papers soon? Or, do you plan to let the new shrink work with her a bit? How do you think she'll react once she gets served?

Wow, I suppose you have to be patient to a point. Your VAR certainly keeps you on top of her true feelings. Unfortunately, it is probably illegal to use in that manner, depending on where you live, and could expose yourself to criminal or civil penalties if discovered. Discuss with your attorney ASAP. Looks like she may be weakening and might break NC soon based on her recent discussions with her mom and sister. Very sorry that you have to go through this crap. Stay strong, continue working on yourself, continue to get your ducks lined up in a row. Once you are satisfied that your relationship is not salvageable, try and keep matters amicable as you move to disengage from your WW. My marriage was a nightmare but the divorce was unexpectedly painless. It's no fun, but you were handed a raw deal. I don't know how you feel about dating after divorce, but it did not take me very long to get out there. Of course, I had disengaged from my ex-WW well before her exit affair was discovered. A sense of liberation and relief swept over me when it ended. When you get to that point, you know it is time to pull the plug. Good luck and stay strong. Engage with friends without her company.

[This message edited by src9043 at 12:28 AM, January 18th (Monday)]

The scariest thing in the VAR conversations that is a trend is everything is about her & how it effects her. Every once & awhile she says it will be devastating to the kids & me but 90% of the conversations are about her feelings & no one else. The other thing is she never discusses a plan, of where she would live or how it would affect her financially. How do you not address that?

Sadly, you don't. She's going to stay in denial until it becomes impossible to, most likely until she gets served the divorce papers, or has the first hearing. Once the reality of what her actions, and inaction, is costing her finally hits you can expect her to fall apart. The longer she holds off on dealing with the emotional weight of the situation the worse it's going to be. Get ready for that, it's not going to be pretty.

[This message edited by MountainGuy at 1:39 AM, January 18th (Monday)]

CM70

I hate affair fog. Usually we see and talk about affair fog regarding how the WS behaves and thinks. This is one of the main reasons we strongly suggest making the affair real. Busting the fantasy and making it clear to the WS that we do not accept the infidelity and that they have a relatively simple choice – see if we allow them to tag along out of infidelity or remain behind.

I can fully accept you divorce. I have always been clear on that. You don’t have to list your reasons for why you think it’s your best option and we all have our definition of the line that can’t be crossed. But please don’t enter the BH version of infidelity fog where you talk like you want D but act like you want the marriage.

The options infidelity gives us are relatively simple, but we all 100% acknowledge the implementation is hard and tough. This is maybe where I disagree most with those that suggest you just divorce because there are plenty more women out there. The emotional aspect of your decision and choice remains, although the logical aspect (refuse to be in infidelity) is quite clear and easy.

Going out for a family dinner… that’s sending mixed signals.

Are you divorcing or are you not divorcing?

Other than talk to your attorney have you started working on the list he should have given you?

Since you let your family and stakeholders in the marriage know of her affair have you shared that you are divorcing?

Have you two discussed how and when to tell the kids?

Have you two started the discussion of residence during the transmission period?

Is there anything WW can say or do that will change your mind?

I am guessing you never mentioned the VAR’s with your attorney. He will definitely concur with my view on them.

Try to see it this way: By telling your wife you are divorcing it’s comparable to telling a staff-member he’s fired for consistently oversleeping and arriving an hour too late to work. Once you fire him it’s no longer your responsibility, task, concern or even role to worry if he oversleeps at his next job. Once you fire him, he can get a job at a competitor or start looking around for another job.

The guy who constantly overslept? You could keep him around for the 2 weeks-notice.

If you told him that you would reconsider if he was on time each and every day, then maybe he would be there at 7:50 and work his butt off for the next two weeks. Maybe not. If you told him he was out no matter what… there really isn’t much you can do if he arrives late and leaves early. This is why companies usually just terminate the employment there and then.

Divorce is two-factored. It’s the business factor and the emotional factor. When you tell your wife you are divorcing you fire her. She is released from the role as wife. The process of filing and all that – it’s the business factor. You deal with the emotional factors yourself and without your attorneys.

What is it you hope to hear on the VAR?

Is there anything she can say to anyone else that would make you change your mind?

If she doesn’t break NC would you stop the divorce? It’s not as if you can divorce her less or divorce her twice. Its either D or no D.

What is it that the VAR can get you that could outweigh the possible legal implications of getting caught? Date of filing isn’t the issue. Somebody mentioned false DV charges and I definitely recommend you carry a VAR on you, but once this becomes a pure business negotiation (ie. Divorce) her attorney and/or the judge can consider illegal recordings as DV.

Remember – you fired her. You told her you are divorcing, and you have set those wheels in motion. She CAN break NC if that’s what she wants, just like in the example I mentioned the fired employee can oversleep once he’s off your clock.

What I fear is this – and it’s very common with BS here on SI:

You told your wife you were firing her when in fact you are giving her final notice…

I think clear messages always outweigh unclear messages.

What is it you hope to hear on the VAR?

It could be me, but I don't think that he is being ambiguous about it. I think he is looking to hear that his WW has snapped back to reality, is absolutely horrified by her behavior, and is emotionally reconnecting to CM.

Yes, he has initiated divorce, and will continue this path if the current status quo remains. And I know that the VAR could be legally damaging, but I also believe that it is CRUCIAL in his situation. It is a direct conduit to how his wife is, or is not, addressing the marriage. I'm not even talking about using information for any legal strategies---just as an insight to if his wife is truly committing to the marriage.

Could CM be more clear in his intentions to his wife? Sure. He could try to lay it out in black and white. But I don't think that he is being that unclear. I don't think that his future die has been cast....unless his wife shows no changes.

a) I am going to divorce you

And

b) While you are in an active affair and can’t commit to the marriage I am divorcing.

Are two totally different messages.

Both eventually lead to the same result – the first no matter what, the second if there is no change.

I just want CB70 to be clear on that.

If he is going for the former, then whatever his wife says on the VAR is irrelevant. She can regret her actions all she wants or date OM or whatever. CM70 is divorcing her. The possible cost of it being discovered outweighs any benefits. Just imagine if you are entering some serious legal negotiations (divorce) and discover your opponent is bugging your conversations…

If it’s the later then the VAR has value and I would be more lenient to it being used.

[This message edited by Bigger at 9:07 AM, January 18th (Monday)]

I agree with you, jb3199, a divorce can be stopped if CM sees and hears enough to try R if WW gets her head out of her ass and wakes up.

Keeping the VAR's in place is giving himself plenty of detail as to his WW mindset and he will find out very soon if she comes out of the fog or if she wants her cake so to speak.

CM, in my opinion you are doing what is right for you, hopefully after a few sessions with the new IC there will be a clear path for you.

Keep safe.

Good afternoon, I understand some of the confusion/questions in the previous responses. I am still waiting on the paperwork from my lawyer I will call them today to see what the hold up is. I have also thought of talking to a second lawyer just to see what their take would be. Yes I have brought up the VAR to the lawyer, & they basically said yes that is illegal unless you are in the car with her then I can record without her knowledge. I will continue to use the VAR until I file, & I will not ever let on that I had recorded her now or in the future.

Yes the VAR is two fold I want to see what her real thoughts are versus what she is telling me. I she changing her stance on me versus the AP. Since she is seeing a infidelity counselor today I want to see if she starts to change or not. If she pulled her head out and actually figured out this was a mistake & remorseful I would consider R. I am trying to keep things normal for the kids as long as possible if there is any chance for R. Also if she would initiate any contact with the AP, that would also be the clincher & all talking would be over which she would spill that on the VAR if that were to happen.

We have not talked about where she would go when she would move out. To me that is her problem to figure out. But I would give her a few weeks to find something, & of course at that time we would have to talk to the kids. Am I doing the right things I have no Fing idea but this is where I am & where my head is at. Should I just throw her to the curb, yeah I probably should just do it and get it over with. Like I have said previously I am taking this slow & trying to figure out what is best for my kids & myself.

[This message edited by CM70 at 1:24 PM, January 18th (Monday)]

In response to 1965's questions yes she is still in affair fog & I have recently stopped even trying to talk her off the ledge. She has no plan or realistic sense of a future with the AP.

The other thing is she never discusses a plan, of where she would live or how it would affect her financially. How do you not address that? I have already been looking at houses on Zillow for when I downsize & sell the house I am in!

CM70 I don't think she gets it. Perhaps the signals you are sending are not clear enough. Perhaps it would make sense if you detached and lived out for a while or at the very least alternated looking after the kids during weekends and stayed somewhere else if you can without contact when it is your weekend off . Do the 180 or Greyrock. Make her start to feel and experience the consequences of her actions and where this is headed if she doesn't snap out of this.

I don't ever think it would be a good idea for me to move out especially if this goes D. I would ask her to move out. Yes she doesn't get it at all.

Dday was just a few weeks ago, based on what he posted I suggested he file for D immediately, I still do. OP first expressed he wanted R depending on WW's actions/inactions and frame of mind, so far his WW is still pining for POSOM, he KNOWS that because of the VARs, will his WW come out of the "fog" at some point, we don't know but the VARS could confirm one way or the other and that's probably the most valuable and unfiltered info CM70 would get to make a life altering decision.

D usually takes a long time and it's not uncommon at all for BS and even WS to change their minds along the process before it's final, this is where the VARs come in to play in order to confirm what's on the WS's mind at any given time.

I agree with some of the posters that are telling you to keep the VARs in place for now unless you're certain this is a deal-breaker for you, like I mentioned before If I was in your shoes I would take the risk of it being found by your WW.

Like I said before and after reading hundreds of stories I cannot recall a single case where charges were filed against the BS for using a VAR, first of all VARs are rarely found, but in the event they are, a WS who still considering R (like yours) knows that if she presses charges all hopes to R would be gone, remember she is also making a life altering decision for her and the children, but even if she decides to, she would have to prove it was you who put it there with the INTENTION to record her convos, VARs are mostly used for a variety of things not just infidelity, they are used by students, reporters, recording meetings, a conference, etc. and some models are even password protected, but remember, if ever found, it could have "fallen off your pocket" before you went to that business meeting/conference.

My WW still is almost seeking permission from her asking if it would be bad if she called him (AP) to see what his intentions would be if the things didn't work out with me (CM70)? So she is almost hedging her bets at this point to have somewhere soft to land.

So she is really treating CM70 AND the OM both as Plan Bs.

Hollywood writers can't make up crazy like this.

I don't ever think it would be a good idea for me to move out especially if this goes D.

If? There's an if?

[This message edited by Westway at 1:00 PM, January 18th (Monday)]

Just like deciding to try to reconcile isn't a permanent binding decision, filing for divorce isn't either.

With that being said, having to threaten a partner with something so serious just to get them to pull their head out of their ass and to stop fawning over someone else would be a deal-breaker for me in and of itself. I made a promise to myself long ago to never be someone's second choice, and to never let any person come between me and my self-respect and dignity, regardless of the presence of a ring on their finger.

I can't think of many things more degrading than having to compete for the attention of my own wife/partner, or having to take that competition to the extreme of filing for divorce.

Your personal tolerance for this shit is yours to decide though. Nothing is final until it's final.

I really don't get the premise that the WS just doesn't get it and the BS needs to sit down and very patiently explain in detail what the results are if …. The WS is a grown ass adult (supposedly). They should be able to discern consequences. If they are unsure they can ask for an explanation. The BS usually has to pump them for info and frequently gets a non answer.

I can't think of many things more degrading than having to compete for the attention of my own wife/partner, or having to take that competition to the extreme of filing for divorce.

Believe me when I say that is true. I didn't know for sure and never got proof my XWW was committing adultery. I was suspicious. I found a site on the internet (not SI, unfortunately) that was about "nicing" them back. Doesn't work. Life got better at home. XWW was easy to live with. The pressure was off at home and she could have her LTA in peace. I thought that if she was committing adultery it must have ended but probably the super stress of a huge project she lead at work was over. I was wrong the adultery continued but it was peaceful.

This is degrading to me. This behavior of mine plagues me to this day even though I wasn't sure about her committing adultery.

Do not compete for her affections. If you have to are they worth having?