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Bible reminders

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Robert22205https posted 9/3/2020 16:38 PM

.... I don’t think there was any misunderstanding as to my feelings about the Bible, I think she thought it would eventually blow over and we’d just move on. It was “gone” for about two years and just recently resurfaced.

The above is new information for me but just confirms my advice. You're living with someone that has zero empathy for you and not only got away with adultery with no exposure - but is still thinking fondly of the OM.

IMO you should seek a second opinion on the Priest's advice. I know too many Catholics that had their marriage annulled for adultery.


Justsomeguy posted 9/3/2020 17:21 PM

This thread is really difficult to read. Nice guy. I was raised catholic. There is a reason that Marx called religion the opiot of the people. It's not do much belief, but dogged adhetance to belief and its use in control. Now, I'm not accusing you of anything, but I see clergy pull the Hosea thing all the time.

People play rock, paper, bible verse, twisting and skewing text out of all recognition. That's why I follow the gospels and ignore the rest. And that is even too difficult for me. Christ said, if your eye offends you, pluck it out. Can't get any more simple than that. He didn't say pluck it out but put it in a drawer somewhere because, hey, you've got some fond memories attached to it and you might want use it again. He was an either you are all in or all out kinda guy. Remember the rich man and giving it all away? Not big on middle ground. Which one is you WW?

Robert22205https posted 9/4/2020 09:33 AM

.... went to talk to my Pastor as well and was told that Grace and charity would see me through this. That my forgiving her “again” was a part of the Sacrament I entered into in marriage, and that until I had forgiven “70x7” according to scripture, there is still hope.

Forgiveness is more than just you speaking the words, it includes your actions toward her.

IMO, every day you shared your life with her was an act of forgiveness. Therefore, you already exceeded the 70x7 threshold.

VinST posted 9/15/2020 16:25 PM

Wow... Just Wow! Using scripture as a means to justify and even glorify her infidelity. I find it odd that you have not been more of the man the Bible asks you to be and lead your wife. (I am by no means implying rule over her..but to be the head) Holding onto a bible because it has sentimental value is un-scriptural.. "cut off you hand if it causes you to sin..." scripture does not save .. Spirit does. The words inside should be of sentiment ... not the book itself. ANother thing... you wrote

"Westway, thanks. I went to talk to my Pastor as well and was told that Grace and charity would see me through this. That my forgiving her “again” was a part of the Sacrament I entered into in marriage, and that until I had forgiven “70x7” according to scripture, there is still hope. "

what about "I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Do not use scripture as an excuse not to enforce consequences. One of those consequences may even be divorce.

I can easily see why you are in this situation... You are like lukewarm water at heart... your words indicate a serious lack of passion and courage in dealing with your wife. You needed to put it to her that it is you or the Bible? (and by that I mean burn it in front of you) She would do much in demonstrating her loyalty to you. And yes I think its fair to say you should be worth more that sentiments from her past which include reading the initials of her ex each time she opened that bible.

DO you need a pastor for that?

[This message edited by VinST at 4:27 PM, September 15th (Tuesday)]

pureheartkit posted 9/15/2020 17:01 PM

There are some really beautiful Bibles available. What about one that you both love and can treasure and read together? You fill it with beautiful memories and mark the texts that you find inspiring.

I don't have an answer for the old one. She's probably tucked it away with her other things. That's unfortunate that she feels she still needs them.

Niceguy25 posted 10/12/2020 01:44 AM

So I purchased her a new leather bound Bible and gave it to her for our 44th anniversary. It’s still in the box. I give up.

Niceguy25 posted 10/12/2020 01:45 AM

So I purchased her a new leather bound Bible and gave it to her for our 44th anniversary. It’s still in the box. I give up.

GoldenR posted 10/12/2020 03:40 AM

So what now, NiceGuy?

Thumos posted 10/12/2020 08:01 AM

Keeping any memento, keepsake, or object tied to the adultery is an enormous act of disrespect, dishonor, and is an intentional act of emotional and mental abuse directed at you.

Her framing of why she’s keeping it is also gaslighting. By keeping this particular Bible, she has also confirmed her intent to direct harm at you.

That means she’s still wayward after all these years, and she has compounded her adultery.

It also means you know exactly where you stand with her, what her priorities are, what her skewed and immoral worldview is and much more.

This is who you are married to.

[This message edited by Thumos at 8:04 AM, October 12th (Monday)]

HouseOfPlane posted 10/12/2020 08:16 AM

NiceGuy25, she has shown you completely who she is. If she chucked the old bible and went with the new one now, do you think it would be an honest move on her part, or done for other reasons?

Would those other reasons satisfy you?

StillLivin posted 10/12/2020 12:37 PM

Forgiveness is the absence of anger and resentment for the wrong done you. What it is not is letting someone continue to abuse you. For example, I can (and have) forgiven my rapist. But you better believe i will not go camping with him, nor would I allow him near my children, and they are grown men now. Do you see the difference?
As for "til death do you part", it is part and parcel of an entire string of other vows as a whole covenant. When your wife committed the adultery, she took dynamite to that covenant. There is no longer a covenant, just a one sided marriage. There is a reason that God made allowances for divorce under conditions of abuse and/or adultery. He finds a spouse being abused or betrayed abhorrent. When it says that He hates divorce, he is speaking directly to the abuser/betrayer, not the victim. Again, I will use my rape as an example. Fornication is a sin. I did not fornicate, my rapist did, however. I was merely his victim. Do you see the difference in the two. I was free of ALL sin. Period.
If you stay in this marriage, it is completely on you because He has absolved you to go and be free if you decide. If you choose to keep your whole set of covenant vows, while she cherry picks which ones she wants to keep (such as love your spouse as you love yourself...which she does not do), that is entirely on you. Do not place that onus on religion. According to the Bible, God himself has made very clear accommodations for divorce if you choose to pursue that route. So, unless you think you know better than Him....
At some point, you have decided her continued disrespect and betrayal is ok with you, you just don't like it.

longsadstory1952 posted 10/13/2020 09:39 AM

I was unfamiliar with your story so I picked through your various posts.

I get that you love her, although she does not sound very lovable. It seems like she has zero empathy, is certain that you will never leave so she has no incentive to be honest, or to help ease your torment. She obviously still has him in her mind, and she obviously still has feelings, and they do not appear to be hate.

This has gone on for years, and she apparently has never given you basic information or the tools you need to heal. She uses religion as a sword and a shield. Frankly, it seems rather abusive.

And yet you are paralyzed. You might talk to your therapist about learned helplessness. She seems to have you believing you have no agency in your life, despite the obvious facts to the contrary. You have held her dark secret close, carried the burden of knowing that she only stayed with you as plan B, and have let her control the narrative of your lives.

Some people do not divorce, but live separately. They are civil, even cordial, but they recognize that they simply cannot live together. You might want to consider this.

For me, the concept was something I tried for two years and they were happy. We moved back together and for a while things were good, but eventually got back to where they were.
I sometimes kick myself, though really things are not horrible.

You live with an unctuous religio who honestly does not think what she did is worth discussing. She won’t give you the truth, and for her the door is closed to your needs.

So why continue? Please don’t say that religion forbids your self preservation, it doesn’t. Every living thing has an instinctive need to get away from pain. How much longer are you going to allow the torture to continue?

Thumos posted 10/13/2020 10:35 AM

but I see clergy pull the Hosea thing all the time
.

Because of the nature of this thread, I feel comfortable bringing this up.

I had an evangelical friend try what I'll call the "Hosea gambit" on me.

Here's why it is wrong, and actually unbiblical to to apply it as a "lesson" for betrayed husbands: Hosea was a prophet. Prophets were "tasked" by God with all number of outlandish and crazy things. One was asked to walk around his town naked. They did things to shock people. They aren't held up in the Bible as examples to emulate.

You're not bound to Hosea's employment contract. You're not required to take back a woman who has defiled herself. That was only asked of Hosea.

Another verse that gets abused is "God hates divorce" - taken out of context and using it to guilt betrayed spouses is what is known as "proof texting."

Jesus was clear: If your spouse cheats on you, you can divorce them with no guilt. His use of the term "hard hearted" was not referring to an individual who wants to divorce after adultery. It was referring to the fallen state of the world. Divorce then is seen as the best option, or the least offensive option, in a broken world.

John Calvin put it this way: God “did not lay down a law about divorces, so as to give them the seal of his approbation, but as the wickedness of men could not be restrained in any other way, he applied what was the most admissible remedy.”

The most admissible remedy. There you go. If your WW is still flaunting a Bible filled with highlights used to justify her transgression of the Seventh Commandment, then she's sick and unrepentant -- in which case, she's behaving exactly as Proverbs 30:20 describes.

Maybe share that verse with her.

And bear in mind Proverbs 25:24, "Better to live on a corner of the roof than share a house with a quarrelsome wife."

If your wife is unrepentant and quarrelsome over a Bible (!) that she's filled with sinful justifications, then you have a remedy available.

I like the old saying "The U.S. Constitution is not a suicide pact."

Well neither is marriage. You're not required to shackle yourself to the source of your pain if the very source is unrepentant and hard-hearted and acting like a complete weirdo years after her horrific sin.

[This message edited by Thumos at 10:43 AM, October 13th (Tuesday)]

ToastedOats posted 10/13/2020 17:27 PM

Hey,

I just read this thread. I'm a christian, and someone who works in ministry. I would like to give you a pointer or rather an example of the difference between mercy and forgivness.

I work with homeless and problem young adult males. Often times as you can imagine they steal. It's part of their selfish makeup of entitlement and its points to how they ended up in situation in the first place. I'll use this to explain my point.

Forgiveness by definition means you can handle a person or situation with feelings of rage, anger, spite, or other negative feelings. It means you have given your case to the lord and recognize God is in control.

Mercy means you allow them to thread into the situation without holding it against them.

That verse 70x7 is used out of context. We are to turn the other cheek and allow God to handle it but it doesnt mean we allow it continue by putting ourselves in that situation.

That the argument let me back it up with example and scripture back it up.

Example:
If I bring someone into my home and he steals money from me. So I accept the possibility that this would happen before I open my home to him, then this person steals me. I work hard to help them stop, plead, and the set a consequence. The consequence is that they will no longer have the PRIVILEGE of being in my home during thier recovery stage. It would be bizarre of me to continue to allow this person to be in a position to abuse the resources that God has given me to help people. It's also not fair to put them in a position they cannot handle the expectations given after they show they do not have to capacity to manage their actions in this area. So the consequences of losing the privilege is carried out not by for the sake of the household but for them too. They get removed. I do this without anger.

I have forgiven them but I cannot show mercy for continued abuse. Well do I shun them, hate them, cut them out of my life permanently? Of course not that's exactly what Jesus is asking us not to. I'll meet them for lunch, pay for it. Take them out to dinner, offer advice, and if they ask for resources I'll give them hard things (i.e. cloths, food, toiletries), but never money. I also verify if they need it.

Mercy is shown when they have gone above and beyond thier normal actions to show remorse. They work hard to bring healing for stealing. They replace what they stole even though I don't ask them too. They stay away from things that could be misconstrued that they are stealing. They don't give an attitude back when being held accountable. They are humble and contrite. With this new attitude they come back and live us.

A couple of years go by and it happens again. A small incident. 20 dollars is missing. I sit the person down. "Good sir 20 dollars is missing" I usually get an I'm sorry. The money is returned. I'll ask if our relationship is only worth 20 dollars to them. They usually reply no. We work through insecurities and triggers oh what might have caused it. The go and talk to their counselor. Comeback with a plan to rectify thier actions and we keep going. If I don't get those responses it's back to the drawing board of consequences and boundries. I can do this because I have forgiven and have boundries in place. Otherwise it's a disservice to the ones I'm reaching and my own sanity.

So go read Matthew 18. The whole chapter. Not just those 2 verses. You will find there is no blanket mercy. But there is forgiveness, an abundance of forgiveness to given to those who wrong us.

Again in 1 Corinthian Paul calls out the church there. A man is cohabiting with is fathers ex wife. He says you brag that you can allow a man amongst you do this because your so patient. Not even non believers would allow such things in their communities so why are they. The man wasn't willing to change so he said discipline him by not allowing him to partake In you community. Well in 2 Corinthians they get chastised again. This time for being over zealous In their discipline and to let him back in their fellowship.

Love, mercy, forgiveness, and consequences. These should apply to you and your wife.


[This message edited by ToastedOats at 6:38 PM, October 13th (Tuesday)]

ToastedOats posted 10/13/2020 19:00 PM

Pastors are not trained to be marriage counselors in most cases. They should not and can not give advice both legally and ethically. What we can do is give adic3 and caution against taking drastic measures or actions that would effect the persons spiritual walk.

We are crisis managers, friends, and spiritual advocates to help people grow spiritually. We mentor when mentorship is needed. We listen. We give advice when asked to. We provided direction and help keep the group together. As far as the Fellowship goes. When we get divorce, most of the time they leave. That's why we shouldn't give involved. Pastors who takes a paycheck from offerings can be effected by this.

What I would be of opinion of in your case is find a marital counselor that shares the same values as you and your wife. Someone who is trained in these kind of situations. Get help.

You wife is either all in or not. This shouldn't even be an issue. But you can't control her or even want to. What you can control in your actions, spiritual walk, and sanity. It was never in the bible or Gods plan to have people abused. Set your boundaries and stick to them. Set the consequences. Don't be a false martyr. That's not suffering for the Lord. That's often suffering because the adversity to take action.

Shehawk posted 10/13/2020 19:33 PM

This would not work for me. Then again, take my viewpoint with a grain of salt because I am divorcing the man who had adulterous sex with another woman and would not want away from Every Thing and Every Person connected to the affair (and recommit to a monogomous Christian Marriage).

I don't think what I wanted was unreasonable. I would not put myself in jeapardy of being called a crazy bitter spouse by tossing her bible.

I personally myself would now respond by either accepting or rejecting what my spouse was offering me.

ToastedOats posted 10/14/2020 00:20 AM

I agree. But get counseling. I think the bottom line you have expressed is she treat your mercy with disdain. Either she's all in or not. It's no a marriage if she doesn't care.

WalkingHome posted 10/14/2020 10:26 AM

Waywards do not respect weakness and they will interpret kindness as weakness.


She sees that she has the power as you are the one reaching out, buying the bible, and driving changes. That should be her doing the work...but she knows you will never leave and never do anything about it, no matter how badly she treats you...so why change?


When you are ready to stop that, you will do so...until then, she will treat you as badly as you allow her to.


Thumos posted 10/15/2020 14:33 PM

Waywards do not respect weakness and they will interpret kindness as weakness.

And there's research to back this up. Apparently the more forgiving a spouse is (to a certain point) there's a correlation in increased physical and psychological aggression and negative behavior from the offending spouse.

Researchers call it the Doormat Effect.

You teach people how to treat you. You've been teaching your wife to disrespect you in the worst possible way.

bradychu posted 10/16/2020 06:48 AM

She is reluctant to give this up, and you are reluctant to force the issue. Then find a way to take add your own “note” to the situation. What if you took a large red sharpie and circled all of his initials in bright red and in large letters on that page wrote adulteress. She has the note to remind her of him and you have added a note (that bleeds through to other pages) to remind her of what that choice made her. I like the symbolism...like adultery, it bleeds through to other pages as well.

[This message edited by bradychu at 6:50 AM, October 16th (Friday)]

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