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For tonight I would just ignore and not engage. You don’t want to hear if it went well or went south. The disrespect she has shown is heinous.

I'm UK based, how do you even select a good solicitor? I've had a couple of free half hour phone consultations so far. How do you know yours will be better than hers??

Not sure how this works in the UK but in the States, most that I know of are obtained through good referrals via friends & family. Id tap into your relationship network for some good referrals.

There is, of course, no garuntee as to the superiority of your solicitor vs hers, but what is highly probable (closer to a certainty) is that her behavior will continue to spiral downward.

I hope you can marshal enough inner strength to be able to move forward with the steps needed to get out of her infidelity. As others have said, can you sell something? Her wedding rings maybe?

I told her not to come home late, drunk or stay out. Let's she if she at least respects those wishes.

Every day that passes my heart dies a little more for her, but I fear if she comes back, maybe not tonight, but in days or weeks in the future showing remorse and pleading to try and fix this.

I don't honestly know how I will react to that because deep down I don't want to rip my family apart.

I'm half hoping she just goes off with him properly so the decision is made for me.

I know you are in a very weakened state emotionslly but I want to encourage you resist hoping against hope (we call it "smoking hopium") that shes going to suddenly change. This will just compound the hurt. Shes shouting it with a megaphone via her actions that the shmuck is more important to her than you OR your kids. All she deserves now is your derision and strong action to seperate and divorce her.

Every day that passes my heart dies a little more for her, but I fear if she comes back, maybe not tonight, but in days or weeks in the future showing remorse and pleading to try and fix this.

I don't honestly know how I will react to that because deep down I don't want to rip my family apart.

I'm half hoping she just goes off with him properly so the decision is made for me.

I'm terrible at huge decisions. I'm a worrier and I procrastinate way too much.

She's running on emotions and lust, I'm running on fear for my kids, legalities and financial worries.

This is such familiar territory for so many of us. We've all pretty much been where you're at in terms of anxiety for the future, fear for our families, emotional despair at the betrayal. It all sucks. I know it doesn't really resonate just now, but we do get through it.

What might help you a little is to try and reframe a bit. Right now, you're probably thinking that divorce and the changes it would necessitate to the family unit are the worst possible outcomes. The reality though is that the worst possible outcome is misery. Sometimes BS's initially believe that they can tolerate a certain amount of misery for the sake of keeping the children happy, but misery trickles down and creates a toxic environment for everyone. I think if you can shift your thought process just a bit so that the goal becomes healthy living for you and your kids, clarity will improve.

I think your goal of getting through the holiday is a really good one. Try and focus your energy on making it special for you and your kids. Your WW will do her thing. There's not much you can do about that in the short run but make your boundaries clear regarding this guy NOT being around your children and, of course, the day-to-day financial and childcare issues. After the holidays, if your WW still thinks she's going to treat you like a roommate instead of a husband, raise the money, see an attorney, and file for divorce. Bear in mind that you don't want to set a precedent by leaving it for months, but a couple of weeks to get the holidays past isn't some kind of tacit approval or forgiveness.

I know it doesn't feel like it, but you're going to get through this. Plainly, you are a dedicated dad, and you can still be that no matter what the outcome is. No one can take that away from you.

I suspect that your WW doesn't appreciate the real logistics of what she's got in mind and that the stress of trying to figure it out might spoil the future-fantasy she and the AP appear to be caught up in. Reality doesn't always end up being what the WS thinks it will be, and sometimes that pops the affair bubble. For your part... not your monkey, not your circus. Do your 180, bond with your kids, plan your legal alternatives, and let her flounder. You just keep forging ahead and devil take the hindmost. IF she decides to reverse course, it's on her to catch up with YOU and not the other way around. That feels really counterintuitive, I know, but the unfortunate truth is that the power is with the person who least wants to save the marriage.

I'm UK based, how do you even select a good solicitor?

Check with friends, acquaintances, family or colleagues who have divorced for references. Also ask about their ex’s attorneys. If someone complains about getting raked over coals and taken to the cleaners by opposing counsel put their name at the top of your list.

I’m not saying you should be aiming for anything other than a fair and amicable split, but cheaters often react badly when faced with the obvious consequences of their behavior.

Hey mate, in regards to consultations, how it works in Australia is that anyone you have a consultation with then strikes that lawyer off from being able to be used by the other party due to a 'conflict of interest'. A somewhat Machiavellian tactic is to pick a few (say, 3) of the top lawyers (check local reviews), have a free consultation, and then wait out. You might not go with them, but they and your wife don't know that. It reduces the other party's options basically. I am guessing this might be similar in the UK, because it is also the case in the US for the most part.

On the day after I kicked my ex-wife out, I focused on my kids. We made a craft project to make something nice for a friend who had just given birth. I know what you are going through, but take your mind off it and shield the kids. Especially noting Christmas is in a few days. Her selfishness noting she's willing to inflict this crap on the family at this time of year is another sign that she is in la-la land.

From a parenting point of view, be aware that your kids will pick up on this, even if they don't understand. One of my youngest started wetting the bed for a few months. My oldest developed a fear of abandonment and wanted to sleep in my bed. My other daughter seemed completely fine. Just be aware mate, they will deal with all of this in their own way. Sadly, your other half is not in a state to fully recognise the pain this causes noting she's currently obsessed with old mate.

As for logistics, you are in a position of power here. Your wife isn't living in the real world, she's living in a selfish fugue-state where she sees a builder who lives with his parents as a viable cost-benefit analysis over her husband, her new house, her kids, her financial situation, and her future security. Use this time to secure yourself ahead of any potential reconciliation or divorce. For everything you are feeling and the chaos you are going through, remember you are the sane one. This is a storm, but you will come through it.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 12:04 AM, Friday, December 22nd]

the worst possible outcome is misery

So very well said, CT.

There are two viable paths out of infidelity (and the misery it causes). Divorce, or Reconciliation with a fully remorseful betrayer. Attempting R with an unremorseful wayward will hurt you physically, emotionally, and spiritually. It will cause an anchor of misery to be permanently chained to your ankle. It’s no way to live. Right now, there is only one viable path for you to escape that perpetual misery. It will take courage to take it, but you can do it.
As others have said, it’s not the point, but if there is any valid chance of her pulling her head out of her posterior and even asking to come back to you as a loving wife, it’s the same path anyway. If she does, the choice is yours then. If she doesn’t, you are on the path to leaving misery behind you.

I hesitate to tell you what I did, because I’m not sure it was a wise course of action, but it worked very well for me:

My ExWW and I mutually decided on an amicable divorce, and to that end, we shared an attorney. That attorney guided us through the amicable process, representing us equally, ensuring equity in the eyes of the law. I felt like I was treated very fairly, everything was split very neatly right down the middle. The attorney took care of all the paperwork and processing of our retirement accounts and it was a relatively, RELATIVELY, painless process, compared to what all my divorced friends and acquaintances went through.

And, we split the fees which were VERY nominal. Like cheaper than what it cost me to create a Trust, Will and Power of Attorney. A buddy of mine spent over $50,000 in a prolapsed legal battle with his ExWW where they were hell bent on sticking it to each other and getting one final blow in, fighting over espresso machines and other petty shyte.

Our attorney said that alimony was legally on the table for my ExWW, but she turned it down. If things were not amicable, I believe she would have grabbed at that just out of spite.

At the end of the signing, we hugged and I wished her well.

This became the foundation we built a mostly successful (with a few setbacks and learning experiences) coparenting relationship.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 10:57 PM, Thursday, December 21st]

Do not be someone’s option, be their choice. I am going to semi-quote the actor Johnny Depp. If you can’t make up your mind between two people choose the last one, because you would not cheat unless you wanted to. When she got involved with the AP she chose him. I know that is painful to think about so don’t do it. Let your body heal a little while from this blow you have had. You have about 12 days(in the States) before life gets rolling again and a new year has begun. In the UK your holidays might take longer. Whatever the time frame just let things ride until then. You are wounded much like a bad car wreck, or a gun shot. You would be advised to heal first and let life’s indignities go. You have this great power in you…you can say NO. Just no to talking to her about anything but the basics. You have the right to leave any room she is in. You have the right to shut your bedroom door to her. You have the right to heal. Do not accept the role she has placed on you. You have agenda. Use it to look after yourself and your babies and let the rest of it go until you get your strength back.

I told her last night that she is free to contact him and go and do what she wants, only if she does it's not as my wife.

I told her not to come home late, drunk or stay out. Let's she if she at least respects those wishes.

Brlywtr, you are dealing with a terribly difficult situation, and although it doesn't feel like it in the moment, you are making a lot of right decisions and handling things better than you think. I do want to gently point something out. The two statements you made above are contradictory to each other UNLESS you very carefully clarify your position to WS.

You told her (via Bigger's script) that she is free to contact him, but not as your wife. She subsequently has chosen to continue to contact him, so she is no longer your wife in your eyes. With that being the case, you can no longer tell or ask her not to come home late or drunk, etc. from the position or expectation that you would as her husband. This doesn't mean you can't make your wishes known, but it must be done in a way to VERY CLEARLY show that you are aware the choice is hers and you will not fight or beg her on those choices (because, again, she is no longer your wife). Refer back to how Bigger suggests asking a WS to move out of bedroom. If they do not (assuming the usual case where they are not legally required to), then YOU move out of the bedroom. No complaining, haranguing, etc. You make your preference known, make clear that the choice is hers as she has already established she is no longer your wife, and if she chooses not to accommodate your request you must proceed firmly and decisively recognizing her choice. In the case of sleeping separately, the firm response is to move yourself out of the bedroom, because you will not tolerate sleeping in the same bed, regardless of what she feels or does. I don't know what a firm and decisive response would be to her staying out late or getting drunk tonight, but it would be worth thinking those things through the next time you make a request after she has now established through her actions that she is no longer your wife.

To me, the purpose of Bigger's speech is not to scare or manipulate a WS into changing their ways, although they may do so after hearing the script. You should only use the script if you really mean it, and the purpose is to make clear to WS that you are removing yourself from infidelity no matter what. Whether that comes in the form of R or D depends on the WS, but the getting out of infidelity itself is ALL YOU and NOT dependent on WS. The speech makes clear that you have that power, and it will happen regardless of their actions. So really, I think giving the Bigger speech is a result of making this crucial mental determination, not the cause in itself.

Without that clear delineation, it is all too easy (guaranteed) that your requests become a form of the Pick Me Dance. Don't do it. And just remember, what hour she comes back or how many drinks she has tonight is small potatoes to the main issue that she chose to continue to see him. Put it this way: if she promised to only meet him during daylight hours and take a breathalyzer showing she hadn't drunk a drop, would that change her fundamental ongoing betrayal? Stop begging for scraps of decency. You can request she show a modicum of decency, but you must make clear to her and maybe more importantly to yourself, that it doesn't change the big picture. You are removing yourself from infidelity.

[This message edited by SicTransitGloria at 3:24 AM, Friday, December 22nd]

^^^^^ What SicTransitGloria said above.

You know what might really burst her princess bubble of having two men find her desirable and fighting for her. The next time she gets all dolled up to go out with Dickhead (AP), tell her something along the following.

With a smile on your face tell her something like, "You really look great. Dickhead (AP) is a really lucky man now that it seems you have chosen him. Since I am watching the children tonight, there is no need to hurry back. In fact, why don't you stay the night with Dickhead (AP)? Have Fun".

Then smile again at her... turn your back to her and go into another room and ignore her from then on. That will send her the message loud and clear that you have washed your hands of her and she is no longer important to you. That is going to get the wheels turning very fast in her sweet little head.

Again, from the 180:

... This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual.

... Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life.

... Still even more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW.

Good luck.

Hey Bryl,

Sorry you're here. While I'm in the states for the next week, I'm based in London. I'm 34, and going through something similar, though I don't have kids. Sounds like we could both use some support! DM me- if you're close, it'd be great to meet up for a hike/football!

In terms of a solicitor, I've just gone through the process, so can give some background though I am not a lawyer. Also no kids (and our purchased home is in the states), so child maintenance, custody, and leaving the maritial home weren't considerations for me. They're perhaps the three biggest for you.

No family here, and in two years living here, not a huge group of friends, fewer still who are divorced. I asked a friend of a friend who is a lawyer for a recommendation. He gave me someone who is good for amicable, and has strong international experience (since I'm a US National). Great to have in my back pocket, but I wanted to have someone who'd fight if needed. Another friend had gone through a divorce, but like me, no kids so it was a simple matter of financial agreement which they handled themselves (this seems more common here than in the US).

Google reviews can be bought easily so I dismissed them, but I did do some google searches looking for content around expat divorce and found three firms. Did three initial calls, three free assessments, and one stood out for their expertise, approach (or ability to read me and know what I wanted to here), and seemed like a reasonable guy ("we can spend 100k fighting for 50/50 or we can probably agree to 50/50 and not transfer money from you and your wife to me and my wife). I also appreciated he told me things I didn't want to here. My hunch is you have a much bigger network.

Beyond the critical custody/child maintenance components, the other key component is financial- namely capital, (home+stuff+cash), pensions, and income (which along with cost of living considerations will impact potential spousal maintenance). Finances are all likely- thought not definitively- 50/50.

In the UK, 8 years of cohabitating is considered a long-term marriage. This can impact maintenance if the lesser-earning spouse can't meet their requirements. Also, you should know that the process takes 7-8 months, and you can file the divorce application on your own (it's £550), however your WW sounds like someone who will go to war, I'd find the £600 you need however you need to.

Get yourself some assessments, each person I spoke to gave me good insights. After the first call to a lawyer, you might feel like shit (I did), or that you're ending it because you're moving the divorce forward, but make no mistake, your WW's actions caused this, not you.

Sorry, I know it's absolute agony, but you seem to be responding rather admirably.

Home at 2am, then after some quizzing this morning, after initially telling me they went into town to a few more bars, turns out they were back to his parents and having unprotected sex.

I'm exhausted, shattered mentally, getting poorly with a sore throat and cold.

I am rock bottom.

I’m so sorry. Time to get busy now. She clearly does not care about you or her children. Do what you have to do to protect you both.

Really no surprise for us with the birdseye view of your situation.

Basically, the only surprising factor is how much of a preplanned date this was, considering what she told you the goal was (to discuss things with him).

I’m a bit surprised on one aspect: I did expect her to come home after this tryst and tell you that this was their last ride on the white horse along the sandy beaches, and now she was committed to spending eternity with you – the ogre in the dark castle. Sacrificing herself and her happiness for the family.

SicTransitGloria comments about your contradicting statements is spot-on.

You gave her freedom to choose, and her choice is crystal-clear.

Her actions are the indicator a lot more than her words. She’s constantly telling you she doesn’t know what she wants, yet her actions SHOW clear as daylight she wants to be with OM. You gave her an ultimatum that wasn’t respected, you then gave the Bigger-Speech (albeit a part of it) and she met with OM despite knowing that would check you out. HER ACTIONS ARE TELLING YOU EVERYTHING!!!

Look – if a big tall guy dragged you into an alley and demanded your phone, watch and wallet… it would be a mugging even if he constantly excused himself and thanked you for the donations. Her ACTIONS are telling you EXACTLY what she wants.

Your actions… they are telling her that you want this marriage so badly that the power is in her hands…

There is ONE strategy left that could make it possible for you to remain married to her and keep the house and not "wreck the kids lives" (a claim I don’t agree with in any way…): You could turn a blind eye… You could accept that she has a lover, and she visits him every now and then. Relationships initiated in infidelity seldom last that long, so chances are that before the end of 2024 the OM will have moved on. I HOPE this strategy doesn’t appeal to you, but if your biggest fear is losing this "wife" then it’s possibly your best option. I really stress that I wouldn’t recommend doing this and it’s not something I could do. But if your greatest fear of all is losing her – well… it’s an option.

If not… Well… go read and reread the Bigger Speech and the follow-up advice.

I want to emphasize one thing: My strategy is NOT divorce. I saw it from your first post that your deepest wish was to reclaim your marriage. My plan is 100% based on creating the most likely conditions to enable that. However – that plan requires that at least ONE of you two want out of infidelity, and that at least ONE of you is willing to take the steps to get out of infidelity. Her actions (more than her words) are telling you VERY CLEARLY, she’s not willing to take those steps. Her actions also tell you that she wants to keep her cake and eat it too. Your actions – in order to create the most likely conditions to enable reconciliation – should make it clear to her that she can only keep the cake OR eat it. Not both. The more she nibbles at the slice, or the staler the cake gets – your interest should be waning.

A big part of what I suggest is based on dealing with the fantasy-world of infidelity with reality.

That includes the fantasy’s we BS fall into. Fantasies like our kids’ lives will be wrecked, we will all be destitute and we can’t afford divorce. It also includes the fantasy that the D has to take place NOW, like in the next 24 hours or whatever.

Look – Divorce is a multi-factored process. It’s not as if the beginning and end is the filing or the signing of the final documents. There are parts of the process you can start NOW – even before you contact or decide on a solicitor.

You definitely make it clear you are headed for divorce. After all – you already fired her as your wife and she has told you with her actions she wants the OM. I do address that in the Bigger Speech:

Terminating or relationship and marriage is complex but basically falls into two processes. There is the emotional and the legal. On the legal aspect there are known procedures in place that ensure we are both treated fairly. We need to initiate that process soon to ensure you have the freedom you need to carry on with OM, and to limit our legal commitments to each other since the marriage is ending. I will have a professional handle this from my end, and do not want to discuss it in detail with you.

On the emotional side I need to accept the reality of you having consciously decided to commit to infidelity and knowingly wreck our marriage and family. Our future relationship needs to be as good coparents, but I am starting the process of emotionally detaching from you as much as I can. I have no interest in being friends or in sharing any of your "joy" as you work on your relationship with OM.

For the next days or weeks, we will need to cohabit. I ask – as a favor – that you do NOT have OM in this house and that you be discreet when talking to him or going to him in my presence. But it’s your call – you can be as considerate or as tactless as you decide. But the reality is that people that end marriages also stop living in the same place, so we need to face the future on a basis of reality.

The questions I suggested you ask are practical issues to deal with the simple reality that for the next 30-60 days you two will need to cohabit in some way.

That’s why her claim of getting a couch for the guest-room is empty. It’s fantasy. It’s the "alas… the evil ogre is making me stay in the Dark Castle"… Why spend money on a fold-away couch to sleep on for a month? Why not she take the logical step of simply sleeping at OM house? Is the marital bed a single mattress or two separate? If two then move one. Go get an air-matress. Borrow from a friend. Think solutions rather than think misery.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 12:09 PM, Friday, December 22nd]

Very sorry this is happening. Time to laser focus on your health and happiness. Focus on your children, their birthdays and Christmas. Don’t engage with her or argue. Become a gray rock. Give her nothing to argue about. No anger or lashing out. You can get the D going after Christmas. Your children will remember you handled this time with strength for them. Good luck.

Don't question her. Don't ask her where she is going or when she will be back. When she comes home,ignore her.

Your pain means nothing to her.

She's enjoying the attention of two men.

Remove yourself from that.

Practice the 180. Get her out of the bedroom, and make that your safe place. Completely remove all traces of her. It's now your room.

Treat her like an annoying roommate. When she enters a room, leave. When she starts to tell you about her day,leave the room. Only speak about the kids, and finances. Nothing more. Don't hang out in the same room.

You said she doesn't work? Turn off her phone. You're paying for it. Stop funding the device she uses to cheat on you. Take half of the money,and put it in a separate account. One she has no access to. Cancel any credit cards she has with your name on them. One of the reasons to file immediately, is to end any debt she is ranking up,that you can be held responsible for. Let her spend the money in the account she has access to,on a new phone. Whatever. But you stop paying for it. Do you pay for wifi? Change the password. If she wants to conduct an affair in front of you, she can pay for it. Also,don't put any more money in the shared account. Direct deposit into your own account. You can pay the bills from there. A phone and wifi are not necessities. This isn't illegal. She can get a job,or her boyfriend can buy her a phone.

Find your anger.

Can you get any friends or family to come and stay with you over Christmas?

Someone to support you, and be disgusted with her. Someone to witness her behaviour first hand so she can't try and re write history.

She doesn't care what she is doing to you, I think she is trying to break you, but she will care what others think of her.

Condolences on the death of your marriage. This woman-child cares not one iota for you or your children. Time to scrape any last bit of care for her from the bottom of your shoes.

Well, you said you wished that she would do exactly what she has done so that you would have clarity as to your way forward. You now know.

Youve been given tremendous input as to how to navigate these rough seas. Of your own admission, you have a hard time making tough decisions but you are going to have to find the strength to move forward. Hellfire adjured you to find your anger. I concur. Find it and make it work for you. If you cant do it for yourself, do it for your children. They need you now. They need you to take action. Action that will begin to get you all out of the blast radius of your traitorous "wife"'s brazen infidelity.

Know your worth sir. Know it and believe it.

One thing that is discussed around here is how the popular perception in society of the impact of infidelity is an upset partner, a week of sleeping on the couch, and then it will blow over. You, on the other hand, are experiencing its reality. It is an emotional shot gun blast to the chest, and your wife doesn’t even have the decency to stop shooting, much less render aid.
Things you have said here that are emergencies:
- your mental health has deteriorated to the point of self harm planning
- your sons mental health is being impacted, that is how I interpret him saying his mind hurts
- unprotected sex has put your physical health in jeopardy

I 100% relate to what you said about wishing she would just make the decision, I used to feel that way. But she is a selfish dopamine junkie right now that can’t be counted on to make any choices that are in the direction of goodness for anyone, even herself. You, sir, need to protect your children and yourself from this clear and present danger. Get clear of the immediate threat, reassess from there.

Brlywtr- My heart is breaking for you. After reading of her night out, I wanted to reiterate a sense of urgency for filing paperwork. She is having unprotected sex with someone other than her husband. If she ends up pregnant you could be on the line for support for the foreseeable future. Be sure to ask any solicitor you speak with about this issue.

Wishing you so much strength and peace.
LoLo