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Newest Member: Timewilltell44

Reconciliation :
How do you know when there’s no hope?

Topic is Sleeping.
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 MIgander (original poster member #71285) posted at 12:01 AM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

At a low point and thinking there’s no hope for R with us.

What did you do to get through these places?

For those who D, when did you know it was hopeless?

WW/BW Dday July 2019. BH/WH- multiple EA's. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

posts: 1176   ·   registered: Aug. 15th, 2019   ·   location: Michigan
id 8797154
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leafields ( Guide #63517) posted at 2:06 AM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

We were in our MC session and XWH confessed that he visited a relative. They got high and she passed out. He had his hands all over her. (I'm sure he was hoping she'd wake up in an aroused state and they'd have sex.)

When I asked if she was pressing charges, he got a funny look on his face life, "Why would she do that?"

He didn't think there was anything wrong with his behavior. I knew then that he'd never change and be a safe partner. Plus, I told him any inappropriate sexual contact with another person would be automatic D.

When I realized he wasn't working on changing and felt it was ok to treat people that way, when that really sank into my brain, I knew it was over.

BW M 34years, Dday 1: March 2018, Dday 2: August 2019, D final 2/25/21

posts: 3303   ·   registered: Apr. 21st, 2018   ·   location: Washington State
id 8797164
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 2:08 AM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

There have been a couple of times in life where I have had to make really – really – hard decisions. Like when I decided my relationship with ex was over, when I decided on end-of-life treatment for mom, when I decided what type of treatment my severely premature baby should get (he survived and perfectly healthy!).
The period while contemplating my choice I remember as very hard.
The moment I have made my choice and decision… I have always felt a sense of calm and purpose.

If you think it’s over… Do you feel some calm with that decision?

Since you are posting in the R forum… what is it that makes you think there is no hope?

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 12291   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8797165
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This0is0Fine ( member #72277) posted at 2:15 AM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

I think there is always hope. But there is also too much to bear. Hope isn't enough. Love isn't enough. Hard work isn't enough. At some point, you should want your relationship the way it is, not the way you are (or have been exhaustingly) working towards.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 2:33 AM, Wednesday, June 28th]

Love is not a measure of capacity for pain you are willing to endure for your partner.

posts: 2591   ·   registered: Dec. 11th, 2019
id 8797169
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Squish ( member #79546) posted at 3:12 AM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

I think there is always hope. But there is also too much to bear. Hope isn't enough. Love isn't enough. Hard work isn't enough. At some point, you should want your relationship the way it is, not the way you are (or have been exhaustingly) working towards.

This0is0Fine- I completely feel this. Sometimes nothing feels like it’s enough.

MIgander - I’m so sorry you are at this spot. I don’t have any advice although with things in the past like with what Bigger has explained. After make really hard decisions I have felt a sense of calm.

Huge to you. I think at least for me I know really how this is going to end up. Eventually, I’m just not ready yet.

posts: 123   ·   registered: Nov. 1st, 2021
id 8797178
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 3:13 AM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

When you know you've done your best for an extended period of time, your spouse is still unhappy, and the relationship is not getting better or is cycling back and forth between better and worse. Big lesson I learned was I couldn't do it by myself. You have to have a partner as invested in making it work as you.

posts: 1568   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2021
id 8797179
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The1stWife ( Guide #58832) posted at 5:19 AM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

You know it’s over when you no longer have any feeling towards the person. You just don’t care. You are done trying. You gave your best but it’s not enough.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 11:57 AM, Thursday, June 29th]

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled. 10 years out from Dday. Reconciliation takes two committed people to be successful.

posts: 13852   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8797191
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 MIgander (original poster member #71285) posted at 10:09 AM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Bigger- I am afraid there is no hope as my H is triggering again over my job, A season and whether or not I should be allowed to go with him and the kids up north this weekend to his parents cottage. I was asked not to come by him on Memorial Day and that was painful, but I stayed home.

H can’t heal while I have the passing chance of seeing AP in the building on campus. Hates that I have business trips coming up. Wants me to find a new job that has the flexibility to WFH, same high pay and NO TRAVEL. I have looked. For the past 2 years. Same pay, no travel? Plant work- and all the crazy stress and hours that come with it. Same pay with flexibility? Travel. Less pay (and lifestyle changes that come from that) are unacceptable to H.

Most jobs that are less pay are demotions to things I’ve done before in labs or quality engineering. Not bad, but the downsizing is not appealing to H as I will not live in constant threat of foreclosure like we did before. H could get a promotion and better pay by either moving up the ladder where he is or finding a higher role and pay elsewhere. That would allow me to take a lower scale position. Again, H doesn’t want to move or change his role because he is comfortable where he is at.

It’s a shit sandwich for him. I chose to shit where I eat and now he gets to make changes, compromises or sacrifices to stay in the M. No wonder he is hurting and resentful. Add on to that it’s A season and you can see why H is wanting to get away and take a break.

It’s not surprising he wants me to change jobs. The way it’s framed- with little sense of reality of sacrifice and compromise somewhere that is needed on BOTH our parts… that’s where I’m stuck. Combine that with all the long list of things that he’s had to "accept" over the years, needs that he believes I won’t be able to meet, etc… I feel like I could make this huge sacrifice in my support network, sense of independence/ ability to survive this M should we D, or survive even if we stay together… it is too much on the cost benefit analysis for me right now to do it.

I told H that I feel like I have made many changes and done a ton of work and it is still not enough for him to accept me. He says he accepts that I won’t likely meet his needs in certain things. I clarified and said that I don’t want to be accepted like that, I want to be on a team that wants me on the team. I then told him that if I make this change for him- leave my job- that he has to promise to NEVER say another word about my work ever again. I asked if he could promise me that. His facial expression said it all. His words did too- he couldn’t promise that, but if I left for something same pay, flexibility and no travel that he would be a lot happier.

My work has been a problem for a long time. Before the A and especially after the A.

Grubs, I feel like I don’t have a partner as invested in making this work as I am. Doesn’t want to continue counseling, doesn’t want to rethink the reality of the work situation, still "friends" with this girl J.

It’s A season and it’s particularly hard up north as during my A I texted AP when we were up north. I’ve since, for the past 2 years at least, been making it a point to plan things that are positive for H and the kids and I to do so as ti distract him from the pain, demonstrate my commitment, and hopefully help him heal. Tried. There were days up there where I was weak and couldn’t keep the brave face on it and became depressed in my demeanor. I didn’t succeed.

What is particularly gutting about all this going up north/ not going up north business is: H talked to the kids and asked them behind my back whether they cared if I went or not. Both at Memorial Day and now for the 4th. I told H that I would prefer he not do that as it brings the kids into our problems and goes behind my back. That if he wants me to go or not is a decision we need to make between the 2 of us and not involve them.

The whole triangulation of the kids in this has me steamed. Completely inappropriate and it FEELS to me like he wants the kids permission to take the family apart. Completely wrong and gross. Boy- kinda like what I did with my A.

1stwife, I still care about him. I still feel attached to him and love him. I’m almost to the point where I want to detach and work on indifference. Im not indifferent. There are good days, there is a bit of the old attraction at times. There are ways in which we work well together- kids, communicating and running the home- that are areas (as TIF says) I want as the relationship currently stands.

All this is bringing up the same feelings of hopelessness that I had before the A. That I could do so many things for H and still not be seen as "this at last is none of my bone and flesh of my flesh!" That’s where we are stuck.

WW/BW Dday July 2019. BH/WH- multiple EA's. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

posts: 1176   ·   registered: Aug. 15th, 2019   ·   location: Michigan
id 8797195
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sisoon ( Moderator #31240) posted at 3:46 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

How has your H changed from, say, the first 90 days after d-day?

Being excluded from family holidays is a giant red flag, IMO. R is a process of building a new M, and you build it by living it and by resolving, together, the issues that come up. Triangulating the kids , making unilateral decisions about holiday weekends - that's the opposite, IMO.

Is this the M that you want? Some people think the BS can demand anything from a WS in R. I don't. I think R requires a marriage that serves both partners. How else can the M be worth the effort?

If your H won't heal in your presence, I don't understand why he wants you around at all. I don't understand how a weekend away from you with kids - and with parents? - is enough of a separation to allow much healing at all.

So many of your posts seem to say that your H is ...um... not someone who nurtures you. So many of your posts seem to say you'll feel better about yourself without him. So many of your posts seem to report emotionally abusive words or actions by your H.

You did a terrible thing. Redemption lies in doing the right things in the present and future, and you report doing pretty well at that. Redemption does not lie in martyring yourself, IMO, but that's what your reports of your M look like to me. If I read you right, I'd bet a lot that not being a martyr will give you a lot more energy to figure out the next right things.

*****

I, too, feel a calmness when I've made a decision. I do my best not to make a decision until I feel calm about my choice, though sometimes life requires action sooner than I'd like.

The D/R decision usually doesn't need to be rushed, IMO.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 3:50 PM, Wednesday, June 28th]

fBH (me) - on d-day: 66, Married 43, together 45, same sex ap
DDay - 12/22/2010
Recover'd and R'ed
You don't have to like your boundaries. You just have to set and enforce them.

posts: 29790   ·   registered: Feb. 18th, 2011   ·   location: Illinois
id 8797223
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Bor9455 ( member #72628) posted at 4:24 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

Wow MIGander, your post on your marriage broke my heart. It sounds like you are living in a pretty awful marriage and of course you are in a tough situation.

Regarding the job situation that seems to be fueling a lot of the issues, your MH is not being a partner on this at all. He wants you to find a unicorn job out there that will pay you similar to what you make now, but with none of the downsides that are upsetting to him. Here in the real world, you are quite unlikely to find a job that checks all those boxes, but I'm sure like you said, there other jobs you can take that pay less but fit most or all of the requirements he has. Are there things that you two could look at in your day-to-day lives that could reduce your overall expenses? I mean, the biggest expenses that people have are housing and transportation. Can you cut something from either of those budgets? Maybe even look at selling your house and getting into something that costs less (although current interest rates are sky-high) or downgrading a newer vehicle for a reliable, used car. I know that we are guilty of this in my house, we have too many subscriptions to streaming services like Netflix, Hulu, Disney+, etc. Can you guys pick out one or two of those and live without them to reduce expenses? Obviously I don't know your financial situation and believe me, reducing your quality of life or downsizing the house or downgrading the car are not exactly fun alternatives, but if I were to lose my job today, I can tell you the first things that are gonna go from our budget to help us tighten our belts.

I think the rest of the posters who responded have kind of hit the nail on the head here, R is a team exercise, it is not something that only one of you can do. Hell, marriage for that matter is about compromises and you are not always going to get what you want. From what you describe, it seems as though your MH is forgetting that he is not just a BH, but he is also a WH and he cannot keep laying the poor BH card forever without acknowledging the other side of him which is a WH. The fact that he is still in contact with his AP is also indicative that your MH is still in his A and acting like a total WH.

Again on the job front, I know from your previous posts that you have gone to what I think are acceptable lengths to minimize any potential contact situations with your AP. I know that we usually give the advice that the WS needs to quit their job where the workplace A happened and that all the time we hear from a BS that their spouse working with the AP is tough, but it is also not a one-size fits all approach, especially when your income is helping to sustain the living standard that your MH is adamant not change. I mean...frankly, it is almost cake eaterish to want you to leave your job but land somewhere that pays you equal to are making now...it does appear that he cannot have his cake and eat it too...he needs to be part of the choice that you two make together, which is more important to him as a BH, the income from your job or eliminating once and for all any chance encounters with the AP? If he is unwilling or unable to see that this is the choice that has to be made...I'm sorry to say that you may be right and it is time to throw in the towel on this marriage and get a D. At least in a D situation, you wouldn't have the added stress of walking on eggshells about your work life on top of everything else.

Myself - BH & WH - Born 1985 Her - BW & WW - Born 1986

D-Day for WW's EA - October 2017D-Day no it turned PA - February 01, 2020

posts: 664   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2020   ·   location: Miami
id 8797230
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grubs ( member #77165) posted at 5:12 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

Bigger- I am afraid there is no hope as my H is triggering again over my job, A season and whether or not I should be allowed to go with him and the kids up north this weekend to his parents cottage. I was asked not to come by him on Memorial Day and that was painful, but I stayed home.

WTH, No. Leaving you at home and taking the kids on vacation twice. That's seems more to punish and manipulate you than because he's uncomfortable to have you there. I doubt quitting your job will be enough. That you can ever do enough to satisfy him. When's the last time you discussed the specifics of your case with an attorney?

posts: 1568   ·   registered: Jan. 21st, 2021
id 8797241
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SacredSoul33 ( member #83038) posted at 5:14 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

I can't get over the inappropriate relationship your H has with his woman friend. It influences all of my responses to you.

He wants you to jump through hoops with this job thing. And you might jump through those hoops, and then he'd have more hoops that need jumping through before he'll make a decision regarding whether he's in or out. A decision may never come - just an endless string of hoops. I think he's really invested in being the victim while also being a ridiculous hypocrite because so far he's gotten away with it.

It's been four years. If I'm correct in thinking that you've tried to do everything right and have been working hard on becoming a healthy human and a safe partner, then it's time to start setting boundaries for what you need to stay in this marriage. Being included in the family vacation is a start. Not discounting you to your children is a good start. (What a dick!)

Don't quit the job you love. Not for your H. He's not a good bet.

Love needs action.
Trust needs proof.
Sorry needs change.

posts: 1170   ·   registered: Mar. 10th, 2023
id 8797243
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SacredSoul33 ( member #83038) posted at 5:16 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

Is a trial separation an option?

Love needs action.
Trust needs proof.
Sorry needs change.

posts: 1170   ·   registered: Mar. 10th, 2023
id 8797244
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Grieving ( member #79540) posted at 5:29 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

First, when was it that your former AP was transferred to your building?

Based on this thread and your previous one about your HR, it sounds like what you’re dealing with, in the most immediate sense, is the trauma and triggering both you and your husband are experiencing as a result of you working in the same location as your AP.

As a person whose husband still works with his AP (and they’re in the same department), I will say it took me almost two years of sincere, good faith, committed effort on mine and my husband’s parts to get to a point where both of us feel ok with the situation. I am almost never triggered by that aspect of things anymore, and my husband has settled into different work patterns and relationships that drastically minimize his contact with his AP. It’s not ideal—I think we would have healed faster and would feel freer if they didn’t work together, but the cost of him changing jobs would be very high, economically and practically, but also emotionally, because we would have to move.

I will say, though, that he was and is completely willing to change jobs, and that makes a huge difference to me, emotionally. I feel confident he would quit tomorrow if I asked him too, and if he wasn’t willing, that would be a big fat hairy deal, and maybe a dealbreaker. My experience leads me to believe that your husband is having a lot of emotional turmoil not only related to you working with your AP, but to your unwillingness to change jobs. And I have sympathy for that.

BUT. It’s not reasonable for your husband to ask something impossible, and then be resentful that you don’t do it. I haven’t asked my husband to change jobs because I’m realistic about the impact of that. I could tell him that he needs to find another job with the same pay and benefits here in town so I can keep my job, which I love, and so we stay in the same house and don’t disrupt the lives of our kids and my MIL, who lives with us. That would be an exercise in futility, though, because we live in BFE, and there aren’t any jobs he could find that would allow that.

Regardless, navigating your spouse working with their AP is very difficult, and requires both people to be vulnerable, honest, mature, sensitive, and to act in good faith. I would argue it also requires both people to be willing for the WS to quit the job if healing isn’t happening because of the extra stress it entails. That willingness includes willingness to deal with the practical ramifications of quitting the job.

It’s not my business to make this call, and I may be completely wrong, but it doesn’t sound like you and your husband have the kind of marriage to successfully navigate something as hard as working with an AP. Your husband doesn’t seem to be acting in good faith. It’s one thing to take a worse job for the sake of a good partnership. It’s another to risk your livelihood and stability for a marriage that may not work. I don’t envy your position, and I think you are asking a lot of good questions and considering your options thoughtfully. It’s ok to take a while with decisions as weighty as these.

That said, this is a very concrete difference of opinion that some targeted couples therapy might help you navigate if you both still want to try to invest in the relationship, but feel at an impasse.

Husband had six month affair with co-worker. Found out 7/2020. Married 20 years at that point; two teenaged kids. Reconciling.

posts: 622   ·   registered: Oct. 30th, 2021
id 8797247
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Grieving ( member #79540) posted at 5:31 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

Ok, I had somehow missed the part about his inappropriate/EA behavior.

Soul sister is wise. Especially the bolded part at the end of her post.

[This message edited by Grieving at 5:31 PM, Wednesday, June 28th]

Husband had six month affair with co-worker. Found out 7/2020. Married 20 years at that point; two teenaged kids. Reconciling.

posts: 622   ·   registered: Oct. 30th, 2021
id 8797248
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emergent8 ( Guide #58189) posted at 7:31 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

Hi Migander,

I’m sorry you’re struggling right now. Your situation, as usual, seems impossible.

I believe I have disclosed to your before that my husband continues to work for the same employer (in the same building) as his former AP (though they do not work together in any way and have offices several floors apart). My experience with this, means that I am extremely sensitive to the difficulties involved in your situation. I know remaining in the same orbit with AP in any way (even if there is no actual contact), makes healing more difficult and complicated for the BS and strains trust-building. For various reasons, it was the right choice for my family, and the fact that my husband let ME make it, gave me some agency over the situation (he was very much prepared to leave his job in the early days). I will say that knowing I was the one who made the decision for him to remain there, worked to diffuse my feelings on the odd occasion where their paths have crossed over the past few years.

I wonder what your husband says about all of this. Does he recognize the impossibility of what he is asking? Does he acknowledge that there is no perfect option here where he gets to retain his lifestyle and minimize travel and have you work from home? I assume you have presented the various options to him. If he was the one to make the decision, what would he choose? Is in favour of you staying at your current position in light of all the options right now? It sounds like he is not prepared to change his job.

I also want to ask you to be honest with yourself. If you were somehow able to obtain this mythical position where you were paid well, were able to work from home, and had minimal travel – would it solve the issues in your marriage? Would he be able to relax and heal? Would this solve your problems? Or would he find something else to blame you for in order to justify his discontent?

I have said it before but I worry he is just committed to being miserable. You are responsible for owning your own shit, but Migander he needs to be responsible for his own feelings.

--
What is his justification for uninviting you from your family holiday? Is it typical for him to take the kids on holiday without you?

I’m almost to the point where I want to detach and work on indifference

All this is bringing up the same feelings of hopelessness that I had before the A.


Remind me again why you have not tried a trial separation? I recall religion plays a role, no? If he is suggesting separate holidays, it seems to me that you are already halfway there. I think maybe some time apart would be good for you both. The way things are going obviously isn’t working, perhaps this is the wake up call he needs. You said yourself, that last time you felt this way in your marriage, you chose to have an A. This time, I know you are capable of a healthier choice.

Me: BS. Him: WS.
D-Day: Feb 2017 (8 m PA with married COW).
Happily reconciled.

posts: 2031   ·   registered: Apr. 7th, 2017
id 8797268
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SacredSoul33 ( member #83038) posted at 7:58 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

My H also still works at the same company as the AP. They've never had to interact much for work; that would have been a dealbreaker. But they did work in the same building, and they conducted their A mostly via work email. I had to trust my H to tell me if AP attempted to break NC. It was rough at first and I needed a lot of reassurance, but I made a decision that I would extend the trust and if I found out later that it had been violated, I'd deal with it then.

I'm thinking a lot about this: "How do you know when there’s no hope?" It's possible that there's still reason to hang on to a little hope, but you're going to have to switch up the dynamic. I think you should start setting some boundaries and expectations and stop tolerating his crap. In true R, the BS doesn't run roughshod over the WS doing whatever they please and requiring that the WS wear a hair shirt and tolerate their abuse. No. Take your power back and make some demands of your own for what you want in this marriage. If he's not interested in acting right, there's your answer.

Love needs action.
Trust needs proof.
Sorry needs change.

posts: 1170   ·   registered: Mar. 10th, 2023
id 8797271
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HellFire ( member #59305) posted at 8:31 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

Typically, I'd tell a WS too bad. You decided to have an affair with a coworker. The obvious consequences of that is you would have to quit,if your husband found out.

And,if your husband was a BH,who wanted R,I'd tell you to quit anyway.

But he's not. He is a ws. He hasn't done the work. He's a serial cheater. He's been extremely unfair, and unkind to you. For years.

You are a FWS,who has done the work. You've become a safe partner. He has not.

I don't believe he is committed to the marriage..at all. If you were to quit your job, and start over somewhere else, it would be a great disadvantage for you,when you only have your income to survive.

I think its time to call it. You've done all you can do..he's the one who isn't R material.

It's ok to be done.

I will be everywhere you look,but nowhere to be found. And that will be my revenge.

posts: 6626   ·   registered: Jun. 20th, 2017   ·   location: The Midwest
id 8797277
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Stillconfused2022 ( member #82457) posted at 10:34 PM on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023

My H works in the offices that he conducted his A in. It is a daily trauma for him to sit in the rooms that he made out with this woman in. We have tried many work arounds and they help "somewhat". It creates a ton of discord. I want him to do all of his paperwork from home so that he lessens the amount of time he has to spend there. He works about 80 hours a week so it is a lot of triggering to manage. I can’t say for sure that we will make it through. He is extremely sensitive to the issue which is why I haven’t given up.

I have some sympathy for the situation because it is a no win for you. My husband feels it is a no win for him too.

I would prefer he leave the job and we both suffer the financial consequences. It is probably not possible for that to happen for at least 2 years due to my daughter’s school.

I can’t imagine telling him that he simultaneously had to find a different job but that I would not accept lower pay, That’s not really fair.

I don’t think it is fair of you to tell him that if you switched jobs he could never comment about your work again. I would not agree to this. I will always (or at least for a bunch more years) worry about his boundaries with coworkers. I expect open and honest dialogue about this. We can’t have open and honest discussion about work boundaries if I am never allowed to mention it again. I don’t see how that would work?

But overall I am so sorry you are going through this. It really is a bit of a torture chamber even when both parties are doing their best. And then there are all the practical realities of needing income, et cetera, that you have alluded to.

I think it would be fair for either you or your spouse to give up. If my husband gave up i would not totally blame him. It is an incredibly delicate dance.

I liked the comment from ThisisFine about " At some point, you should want your relationship the way it is, not the way you are (or have been exhaustingly) working towards…"

As long as we are making forward progress I am willing to keep trying. Sometimes my husband hits the wall and seems like he just can’t keep having these fights about work. Maybe one or two times per month. These moments are short lived and he quickly gets back on track. I also feel like giving up at times but I mostly keep it to myself or discuss it in IC.

I hope we make it. I hope you do what is right for you. You seem to be working really hard and must be emotionally and physically exhausted. Wish you and your spouse the best!

posts: 353   ·   registered: Nov. 27th, 2022   ·   location: Northeast
id 8797292
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BluerThanBlue ( member #74855) posted at 10:04 AM on Thursday, June 29th, 2023

At a certain point, you have to ask yourself whether you can live the rest of your life exactly how things are TODAY, not how you hope they will be tomorrow or could be if your spouse does xyz. If the answer to that question is "no," then you have your answer.

In your case, the only thing you haven’t done to try to save your marriage, it seems, is find a different job. You had reasons for doing so (your H’s financial infidelity) but it’s been an ongoing thorn in the side of your marriage. There’s a chance that changing jobs won’t fix anything, of course, but at least you will be able to say that you tried everything.

On the other hand, if the idea of leaving your job makes you more anxious and sad than leaving your marriage, then I think that fact alone tells you all you need to know.

BW, 40s

Divorced WH in 2015; now happily remarried

I edit my comments a lot for spelling, grammar, typos, etc.

posts: 1894   ·   registered: Jul. 13th, 2020
id 8797359
Topic is Sleeping.
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