SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I've been sitting on this issue for some time, hoping my fWH and I would resolve it but that has happened yet.

So, I'm posting what I think is my first post in the General forum and asking for the wisdom of our wonderful collective.

My sticking point in my own healing is a nagging thought/belief that I don't really know the whole truth.

Why?
-Because my H played TT with me for the first 8 months.

-Because most (not all) of the big information I learned came from my own detective work and prodding until he would finally admit (see 8 months of TT, above)

-Because he worked with the first AP and their A lasted 2.5-3 years and he swears it was never physical IRL. [Odds aren't in favor of this being true. Yet, he was very willing to get STI tests and he did willingly reveal that the A did involve pics and video--which I didn't discover and couldn't have proven.]

-Because it doesn't seem like the odds are statistically in favor of the idea that I discovered it all...since much had been deleted.

-Because I'm really scared to ever be hurt like this again.

He has done a LOT of work on himself and on our relationship. His empathy and selflessness really shows. He is much more confident in healthy ways.

He has never blamed me or the relationship for his actions.

Do I trust him on the day-to-day right now? Yes.

Would I feel very optimistic about R if it wasn't for this sticking point? Yes.

Your thoughts, please?

Maybe I should also add that I'm almost exactly 3 years from Dday 1 and 2 (Feb 7 and Feb 12 of 2020).
So, this is a triggering time. But this "whole truth" thing has been weighing on me for a while now.

A 3 year affair,where distance isn't a factor. They're sending dirty pics and videos to each other. The chances that this wasn't physical are so incredibly slim.

They're adults, who had "feelings" for each other. They behaved as adults do. They almost surely had sex.

But..you've been here awhile. You KNOW all of this.

A polygraph would help you finally get the truth..or find out if he's a unicorn,who had this kind of a LTA, and there was no sex.

I'm sorry you are struggling with this, you are a great contributor here and you know your gut, knows.

He has done a LOT of work on himself and on our relationship. His empathy and selflessness really shows. He is much more confident in healthy ways.

Then he should be bending over backwards to settle this for you. You didn't mention how your communication is. You need to tell him you are stuck on some details and see how much "work" he is willing to do.

Again sorry you are struggling, this is his to fix

Thank you for your replies!

A 3 year affair,where distance isn't a factor. They're sending dirty pics and videos to each other. The chances that this wasn't physical are so incredibly slim.

They're adults, who had "feelings" for each other. They behaved as adults do. They almost surely had sex.

It's this idea that gives me pause.

In favor of it "might not have become physical":

I do believe that the A not being physical (if it truly wasn't) was one of his self-justifications. As in: "If it isn't physical, it isn't really cheating" from his perspective.

Along with this, the next 2 APs that replaced AP #1 were both solely online with no chance to make them physical IRL within the time frame he had them (one was in a different city and the other in a different state), and he sought the next 2 APs out online--actively "wooed" them. So online cheating with the next 2 APs became his MO. When he broke it off with AP#1, he scrambled to replace her with online APs, not women he had contact with IRL.

With that said, what's the average cost of a trustworthy lie detector test? (I've seen a WIDE range of pricing in my region--from a few hundred to almost $2000)

You didn't mention how your communication is.

Communication is very good and a big improvement over not only the time that the affairs were happening, but also good even as compared to our early efforts at R.

We have communicated a lot about how I'm struggling with this, and he actively acknowledges that it was both his cheating and his choice to TT that has left me with this nagging doubt.

he should be bending over backwards to settle this for you.

I think he would/will.

Here is the issue there:

Communication? Great!

fWH tackling emotional/relationship issues like he tackles other problems? ...meh.

He sticks with assuring me that he has really thought about the past a lot and truly can't think of anything else that he hasn't shared with me. (He did do a written timeline quite a while back that we reviewed/discussed at length.)

He has patiently answered questions over and over amd provided grim and embarrassing details when I've asked for them.

Yet, you can imagine that his assurances don't reassure me enough to overcome this.

I have suggested that he could look through the timeline and all of the picture/screenshot evidence I've kept as a way to try to shake loose any other information.

He's willing to do this, but scared of the outcome if nothing new shakes out--since he knows that this nagging doubt may be my deal breaker.

I'm willing to asking for a polygraph, but should I see if he'll do the work of figuring out this option? Or is that just games-playing on my part?

[This message edited by BreakingBad at 7:35 PM, Friday, February 10th]

I'm willing to asking for a polygraph, but should I see if he'll do the work of figuring out this option? Or is that just games-playing on my part?

I think you know the answer to this. Historically it's not looking likely. There isn't any good reason to set yourself up for disappointment and you need the added benefit of being comfortable with the examiner and the process in order to trust it. It won't magically give you the answers but if he does pass, it gives you a starting point where you can accept that all other avenues have been exhausted and you likely have the truth.

I was in your boat too. My exWH had an out of town AP and never had time to meet in person or so I thought. Apparently, they would have sex whenever he had to go to a conference in our city. She would book a hotel room and he’d see her between trainings. When he went to visit his dying mother and would stay at his parents home, he really booked a hotel room with her. It never dawned on me that his mother’s failing health could be used for liaisons.

It wasn’t until I demanded a polygraph that suddenly he started telling me about these things.

I don’t believe that your ws never had the opportunity. He sounds like a serial cheater that still isn’t telling you the truth. The longer you wait to get to the truth the more delayed your healing will be and the more damage you will be healing. Please don’t delay any longer. Get some peace and clarity that you deserve.

I'm not usually one for "get a polygraph" as a must do thing in this shitshow of infidelity but in this case, it might be the only option you have left.

As someone who knew people in the intel field who routinely beat lie detector tests — I’m not big on them.

My wife’s A happened years before her confession, so I was better at filling in the timeline than she was. I feel like I got as much as I can, which is never 100 percent. Memory is faulty anyway, and people in trouble have a way to convince themselves of their own narrative. TT is devastating and nearly destroyed any sense of recovery for me as well. Most WS are certain the next detail they share will be the final straw for us, so I at least understand the defense mechanism. Once my wife understood I needed as much as my reality back as possible, things slowly turned for the better.

That said, if he isn’t making you feel safe, no amount of truth serum will fix it.

Your fWH has either addressed those issues that required additional validation or he hasn’t.

None of us wants to play detective in any relationship, it’s not worth it.

I really think you have to get to that point of being able to let go of the outcome. When you feel you can protect yourself, and you know your value and you KNOW you will be fine with or without the M, it offers the strength to reinvest your feelings or walk away as needed.

Beyond assurances, what is he doing to address your nagging doubt?

I don’t believe that your ws never had the opportunity. He sounds like a serial cheater

Agreed, serial cheater--at least in the time-frame it was all happening.

He definitely had opportunity with AP1 to make it physical, but I really believe he didn't with AP 2 or 3. Those affairs were short-lived because I discovered. They were also far away and my H doesn't travel for work or have large chunks of unaccounted time. (I discovered AP3 first because it was the one that was still happening. AP1 and 2 were already over, and I've seen good proof of that.)

I'm sorry you are struggling with this, you are a great contributor here and you know your gut, knows.

My gut really doesn't know. Do others struggle with this?

With the TT, the stress over time, the work we've both done...I just really don't know what I actually think.

I know I'm scared. I'm so scared to be hurt again.

I feel like I've lost my barometer. Do other BSs feel like this?

Do I worry I don't have the whole truth because of trauma or because I should be concerned?

The stats from the responses so far are in favor of polygraph.

I'm a person who researches options, and I did this past weekend. The polygraph doesn't have a great track record of reliability.

If it was negative, would I trust the result? If it was positive, would I trust the result? Based on what I've read about the reliability, I doubt I would.

I know that some people get the parking lot confession.
taken4granted had a version of this.

It wasn’t until I demanded a polygraph that suddenly he started telling me about these things

I would trust a confession.

Oldwounds says:

As someone who knew people in the intel field who routinely beat lie detector tests — I’m not big on them.

I know and H knows that I need this fear resolved for true R.

Other thoughts?
2×4s?
Ideas?
Experiences?

I appreciate your thoughts. And even though I'm waffling on the poly, I assure you I am weighing your input carefully.

[This message edited by BreakingBad at 11:45 PM, Monday, February 13th]

he should be bending over backwards to settle this for you.

I think he would/will.

It's been 3 years. If your husband hasn't been busting his ass this entire time to prove he's being entirely truthful-- other than talk-- then when is he planning on starting?

A polygraph isn't the only means of gauging the truth and I don't even think it's necessarily the best way. Other things that he could be doing are:

-Write a full timeline of the affair

-Give you full access to his devices and hire a professional to recover any deleted or lost messages between him and AP

-Full access to all his emails, messaging platforms, and social media accounts and recover all his correspondence with the AP

You can corroborate bullet 1 with the information from bullets 2 and 3. If they never hooked up physically, they definitely would've talked about how they haven't done it or debated/argued about whether they should.

If you decide to approach him with a plan of action (such as polygraph, timeline, whatever) don't leave it open ended. If you think you would be willing to follow through on separating if you don't get what you need, then give him a specific deadline. If you're not prepared to deliver an ultimatum, then at least give yourself a deadline for how long you're willing to wait before pulling the plug.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 1:54 AM, Tuesday, February 14th]

Written timeline and polygraph to confirm is the boilerplate advice. I didn't get a poly but I have no nagging feelings.

Something that helped me make the decision to D was that I accepted in myself that I’m just someone that cannot get beyond the TT and the inevitable fact that I’d never know ALL of it, that feeling like there’s always more.

That’s the type of person I am, and that’s Ok.

-Write a full timeline of the affair

fWH wrote a timeline in the first year, and we discussed it thoroughly. We are planning to revisit this timeline soon again. He has answered questions patiently and repeatedly.

-Give you full access to his devices
-Full access to all his emails, messaging platforms, and social media accounts and recover all his correspondence with the AP

This was done immediately, and he is still very open about devices and access to accounts. Neither his phone or tablet have passwords. I have access at any time. That was an immediate non-negotiable and he has never had a problem with it.

hire a professional to recover any deleted or lost messages between him and AP

This was not done by a professional, and I regret that. I believe it is too late now to realistically recover anything. (Step in someone, if I'm wrong.)
I was satisfied with the veracity of info on A#2 and 3, between evidence recovered and the fact that I contacted both APs. fWH told me details they didn't, but they generally confirmed his version.

It's AP1 that I am most concerned about. Their A was the longest by far, but was over about 2.5 months before I even discovered any of the affairs (and I discovered AP3 first since it was still going on). Much of the deleted info from AP1 was already overwritten.

I did recover some, but not a lot and reaching out to AP1 was futile; she way downplayed it (they were just "friends," according to her) and H told me more than I ever recovered. I found flirty communication, but H admitted to sexting, pics, and video. I never recovered these.

I also found evidence of their breakup (that was actually how I discovered AP1). He had already gone no contact by his own choice after their breakup, and this was confirmed by AP1's own social media posts that I discovered. She would lament how sad she was that a "longtime friend" was no longer talking to her. She even posted something like this on her own FB page on H's birthday and wished him a happy birthday without naming him directly. (These posts also happened before I discovered the affairs.)

In my case, there was TT at the start, then "almost" full disclosure until years later when a nagging feeling led me to demand a poly. Then the last bit came out.

In my case, the truth wound up being not as bad as I was initially led to believe.

But the TT made me distrust sincerity. There was still lying going on. And regardless of what the lie is, in my opinion, any lie related to the affair means the affair has continued in some fashion, even if the actual emotional/physical attachment and communication ended long ago.

That is what I have been struggling with now. Not that there is something else to discover about the affair, but that there are ulterior motives and schemes that I am not aware of. It has driven me nuts until recently.

WW has shown through actions over many years, in addition to words, that she has changed. And still the TT blew the trust gained out of the water.

I have taken a leap of faith.

I don't know if that is the right answer for you. But you have to commit or move on else you will suffer mentally (take it from this knucklehead who has taken 13 years to figure that out).

My gut really doesn't know. Do others struggle with this?

When you are revisiting the same information again and again and forcefully try to fit it into the puzzle then that’s your gut telling you it isn’t true.

I remember WH telling me on dday that he did have the affair I just discovered but it ended 3 months prior (from a physical perspective). I then spent 4 months trying to shove that information down my throat: so they worked together, they had sex, BJs in car parks, ILYs but then suddenly decided to stop it and it never happened again (except the ILYs which obviously still happened as I just intercepted a text and that is how I found out).

I kept asking why they stopped. The reason was constantly the same, they felt bad and decided to stop. It made sense. But did it? My gut, like yours, was telling me that adults who tell each other they love each other and have the opportunity just there do not say no to sex. They may attempt to say no to sex, but that is what makes it even more attractive (forbidden fruit) and they’d give in.

Circumstances made it that 4 months later I found out the entire truth and they actually had sex even a week before dday, it never stopped.

I have several of these examples, stories told to minimise the blow where my brain kept saying "yes that could have happened" whilst my gut told me it didn’t fit normal adult behaviour (such as only watching tv together one evening in her house, rather than having sex 🙄).

For me the most telling sign of true change is the ability to tell the whole truth (factually, I’m not talking about semantics) without trying to still manipulate the outcome by downplaying facts. I remember on dday 2 hearing horrendous things, things that suddenly made sense but also things that put WH in such a bad spot. Seeing that he finally understood that I have the right to make decisions based on facts felt like the first step towards change.

I’m not sure where I’d stand if I’d still suspect that I am missing factual information. But I know that rebuilding trust would not be possible, how can you rebuild trust when you still believe your spouse is hiding facts?

I think it’s worth considering a lie detector test, would he agree to taking one?

I share your same thoughts about polygraphs (my husband and I are both research types, and the unreliability factor would make them unsatisfying to me). I also have the same struggles trusting my gut. I do trust it some, but I’ve been so traumatized by my husband’s lies that it’s hard to know what is a reliable gut sense, and what’s baseless suspicion borne out of trauma.

In your case, I’d lean on common sense, human nature, and probability, which all point to his first affair being physical. Honestly, I would operate under that assumption, regardless of what he tells you.

I would calmly tell him that the issue you’re having is that you just don’t believe him. His past history of lying and trickle truth, plus the common sense probability that the affair was physical, make it too hard to rest in his assurance that the affair wasn’t physical.

That doesn’t necessarily resolve anything, but it might bring clarity to where you’re at. It also puts the ball in his court a little bit and gives you the chance to see what he does with it

One outcome of my husband’s affair is that I will never again believe him over my common sense. I love him, and I’m glad we’re reconciling, but never again am I putting myself through the hell of trying to believe something he says that is improbable/implausible/goes against common sense.

It actually makes sense that your husband would proactively admit to the pics and the video because that is material evidence that he knew was out there and would possible for you to find.

I do think it would behoove you to polygraph your husband, but only for its use in the same way that police use it: as an psychological tool. Schedule the polygraph. Tell your husband beforehand that if he's hiding anything, he must tell you before he sits in the examiner's chair; if anything comes out after the fact, then you're filing for divorce. This will be his last chance to be completely truthful.

You should also make it clear to him that passing the polygraph would merely serve as the beginning the trust rebuilding process. Don't let him think he can saunter out of there if he passes and the work is done. All you're offering him is a leg to stand on because his word means nothing.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:32 PM, Tuesday, February 14th]

When you are revisiting the same information again and again and forcefully try to fit it into the puzzle then that’s your gut telling you it isn’t true.

That could be. I may be in a minority (I probably am, but I have no statistical data on this), but for me, fear interfered with accepting what I now think is the I found that one of my biggest fears was getting my hopes high and then having them dashed on the rocks below. truth.

Possible Approach 1

I did my best to take fear out of the equation. I found myself going over some conversations and remembering non-verbal communications and evaluating my W's answers from that, putting fear aside. Then I asked some of the Qs again, forcing myself to just note her non-verbal comms. In fact, W's non-verbals matched her answers, and I was able to relax.

So one approach is to ask some more questions and force yourself to take in the non-verbals. What do they say?

Possible Approach 2

As suggested above, just tell your H you don't believe him and you can't R until you do - and the source of your disbelief doesn't matter. Then ask him to help figure out what to do. Take in the non-verbal communications during the discussion that ensues.