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Newest Member: Beschaedigt

Just Found Out :
Well, here I am.

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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 4:40 PM on Monday, November 14th, 2022

Rover

On my first post on your situation I gave you a guideline on how to react to your wife. I suggest you go read it.

Look – let’s try this experiment:
Lets remove the relationship issue and look at this as a work issue. Imagine you have a company and you have had someone work for you for years. Generally done a good job but now there are some major issues with performance. Like constantly being late, missing deadlines and being argumentative and negative on tasks and maybe even stealing cash from the register.
You give him some warnings, take him aside and ask for change. Because he’s your friend, lives down the road to you and been with you a long time you might even give him more leeway than a "normal" employee. But… eventually you fire him.

After you fire him – in the mornings when you drive by his house – do you still worry that he might oversleep? Honk your horn or phone his new employer to check up on him? Do you expect him to phone regularly to tell you that he won’t be applying for a job with a competitor? Or do you give him an opportunity to tell you how ACME are so much better than you and how they pay him a lot more? Do you send him e-mails to his new job reminding him to meet his deadlines?

No… Chances are you move on. You might miss the company, the guy was great in the coffee breaks and did fantastic work early on, but you move on. Maybe – maybe in a year or two when things calm down you two might have a beer and talk about good old times, but for NOW he’s no longer your concern.

Same with you wife.
She’s in infidelity. She admits that she WAS communicating with OM after the d-day. She hasn’t told you that she wants this marriage. She has implied it by suggesting couples therapy.
[BTW – couples therapy right now is like the broken left leg suggesting the right one get a cast too. MC can be compared to physiotherapy that you might do once the left leg (your wife) has healed enough (discovered why she felt entitled to have an affair).]

So when your wife offers you where she is – tell her thanks, but no thanks. Where she is, what she does and whom she’s with isn’t your concern. She can spend hours in the homes of others divorcing. She can be silent towards you… whatever.

Until and unless she comes specifically to you and states that she’s realized her decision to have an affair is wrong and that she is willing to do what’s needed to save this marriage…
Then she’s just that guy whom you fired. Only he lives in your house for now rather than down the street.

I think too often threads like yours turn into some sort of revenge or condemnation threads to the wayward spouse. They focus on the pain they caused, their ability to rebuild family connections and all that. Issues that – frankly – aren’t truly relevant if you divorce IMHO.

Look – I will never condone her decision to have an affair. Never. If she’s like about 100% of all waywards she’s probably justified her decision by using you and the marriage. Like "Rambler didn’t appreciate me, there was no romance, he was always the wrong guy for me" or whatever.
Each. And. Every. Word of that could be true.
They generally aren’t – but they COULD be true.

But… all that does is justify her demanding change. That change could be as natural as having a sit-down and demanding you two do a budget, organize date-nights, buy theater tickets, plan a vacation… whatever. Things normal couples do to prevent stagnation.
Could even have justified the "I want a divorce" convo.
It NEVER justifies the decision to cheat. Never.

I’m also pretty certain that those thoughts didn’t enter her head until after the deed. They are justifications rather than reasons.

But…
The goal is to get out of infidelity. You cant base your happiness on her unhappiness. If she is too proud to ask for a chance at reconciliation OR you aren’t interested in reconciling the goal is to divorce on as favorable terms as possible and move on. Unless it impacts the divorce proceedings and/or your finances what she’s doing isn’t really relevant. Like I shared earlier:


Tell your wife that you have good news. The OM wife is his ex-wife and/or they are divorcing, so she is totally free to go date him and be with him. If she has a failing business or isn’t working, then even suggest she leave to go be with him. Tell her she’s not wrecking two families but only this marriage.
Tell her it‘s not necessarily what you want or how you envisioned the future, but it beats sharing your wife. You KNOW you can find happiness again, but not while she’s having an affair. Therefore in all but formality and name the marriage is over.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 11130   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8765115
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 4:46 PM on Monday, November 14th, 2022

Oh and Rover

With your attorneys input – I still seriously doubt a lop-sided prenup, but you mention a personal loan for her faltering business. Go over your combined finances and MAYBE see if a post-nup could include clauses regarding debts and the priority of a payment schedule.

Like that personal loan you signed on… The bank won’t take your name off the loan unless the then-ex-wife could refinance. You definitely don’t want to divorce her, relying on her making payments on that loan. It is more-or-less guaranteed to come bite you in the ass. Without knowing the numbers, then MAYBE a clause stating that the personal loan be paid in full using her share of marital assets might be considered fair.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 11130   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8765117
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 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 4:55 PM on Monday, November 14th, 2022

Thanks as always for the responses, Bigger.

I appreciate the one about treating her someone I fired. As for the loan, her business isn't failing. She is able to meet all her business obligations and still have *some* money left over for herself. It's not nearly enough to live on, though.

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8765120
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 5:08 PM on Monday, November 14th, 2022

Rover – if you divorce and she has 1000 per month from her business, the loan payment being 300, rent for her new apartment being 400, car-lease 200 and groceries and living 300, gas and utilities 100 (just to have some imaginary numbers…) then that makes 1000 in and 1300 out.
Guess what bill wont get paid?
IF you divorce then maybe its better that the loan is already paid up, maybe in the form of you getting 60% of the home-value or keeping your pension 100% (therefore enabling you to find the cash needed to pay the loan) or maybe stipulating that spousal support be paid towards the loan or whatever.
Anything beats getting a notarized letter 12 months later with the original amount owed and triple that amount in late- and legal fees.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 11130   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8765124
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 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 5:14 PM on Monday, November 14th, 2022

Of course you are right. I know it feels like I am making excuses, but it's been almost 2 weeks since Dday and really nothing has changed. Just seems both of us are being stubborn. I know I am in the right, and I have continued the 180 method as best I can. I am the type of person that tackles issues head on, so having this "outstanding issue" unresolved is killing me. That's why this is so hard...she is the opposite.

I need to take your advice and just fire her. I think I already have in my mind and feelings.

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8765125
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 5:26 PM on Monday, November 14th, 2022

Rover – I’m not telling you to divorce her. I’m suggesting you travel the road that’s open to you.

To use both parables: That guy you are firing? One issue is that there was money missing from the registrar. He can promise to wake up early, be in the office half an hour before anyone else and start meeting all the deadlines. But he won’t acknowledge he stole the money nor take action to repay it. That’s your wife right now. Offering MC and now playing emotional chicken by sharing where she is. But not telling you "Rover – I am so sorry for what I did. What can I do to make our marriage work?"

Until she does that all she’s saying is that the scenery along the R road is so much nicer, but there are still great big holes and concrete blocks making it impassable.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 11130   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8765127
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 RoverGuy (original poster member #82321) posted at 12:27 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

Just a question:

Why is my WW still going to the grocery store, still making us dinner, and just sitting in her room with the door wide open?

posts: 76   ·   registered: Nov. 4th, 2022
id 8765178
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Dude67 ( member #75700) posted at 12:30 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

She’s a narcissistic. She thinks she can wait you out, as you said you are the fixer, the one who backs down to keep the peace. This is the same old stuff out of her. Maintain the 180. She’s fully expecting you to cave.

posts: 565   ·   registered: Oct. 21st, 2020
id 8765180
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Summertime22 ( member #79796) posted at 12:47 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

I am so sorry that you have had to find yourself here. But you have come to the right place. SI was my team behind me when I was dealing with the fall out and struggling to keep myself together.

I would recommend IC, as soon as you can. My ex blamed me he he left me, listed my faults as he left me for his ex and at that time I believed him. He compared me to her and it ripped my heart and self esteem apart- at that time. I thought it was me, I wasn’t good enough. 11 months later I feel very differently. You will too. I never believed that, but you will too. I know now that cheaters just cheat because of their own issues, it’s their stuff- not ours. But time and IC helped me see that.

It’s a very vulnerable time so please get yourself some support, wherever you can.

The words from my counsellor still stick with me ‘this has nothing to do with you and everything to do with him and his issues. Don’t make this about you’.

I hope this helps. Keep posting.

posts: 177   ·   registered: Jan. 16th, 2022   ·   location: UK
id 8765183
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blahblahblahe ( member #62231) posted at 1:58 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

You have stated multiple times that she "just shuts down" and you give her whatever she wants.

Why wouldn't she just continue with the practice? She gets to hunt/enjoy for either your replacement or her next lover from the comfort of home.

posts: 319   ·   registered: Jan. 11th, 2018   ·   location: Europe and USA
id 8765189
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fareast ( Guide #61555) posted at 2:08 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

RG:

We can never know what is going through your WW’s mind when she goes to the store and makes you dinner, then sits in her room. Look, your WW lives in a prison of her own making. First of all, where is she going to go? Her AP lives 10 hours away. Would she move to be with him and leave her family behind a month before the holidays? Why not? She is probably biding her time until she moves to live with him. But does he want her? Who knows.

In order to justify pursuing her AP she had to create this false history in her mind that her M is bad, and that is why she cheated. She even tried to justify her cheating to your dd. But there is never a justification for cheating. Period. And rewriting the marital history is such a cliched tactic. She is proud and selfish and stubborn. She knows she should beg for forgiveness but she won’t grovel. She knows she should talk and apologize but she can’t bring herself to do it. She throws out hints at couples therapy or whether you would be open to R, but never follows through.

I would not spend a lot of effort trying to figure out her motives. When she is served the D papers I suspect her behavior will become more hostile. I know it’s counterintuitive. You would think she would be ecstatic to be moving on if the M was so bad. But it never works that way. Keep focusing on yourself and your children. Keep doing what you are doing.

Never bother with things in your rearview mirror. Your best days are on the road in front of you.

posts: 3353   ·   registered: Nov. 24th, 2017
id 8765191
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LegsWideShut ( member #80302) posted at 3:17 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

Going to the grocery store and making you dinner is to get you to think "Oh I love her, and clearly she loves me" so the open door is her expectation of you being the man she's always gotten her way with.
Its a mild manipulation. But its still manipulation.

posts: 83   ·   registered: May. 9th, 2022   ·   location: New England
id 8765204
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rambler ( member #43747) posted at 5:00 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

Why, she is not 100% with OM. She was in the drivers seat and now she is not.


You did the right thing in protecting yourself and your kids.

making it through

posts: 1350   ·   registered: Jun. 17th, 2014   ·   location: Chicago
id 8765209
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DoinBettr ( member #71209) posted at 6:30 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

She is waiting you out. As you said, she has done this move in the past and it was effective at getting you to come to her asking what you did wrong.
You have changed things though, you haven't come to her asking what you did wrong. So she thinks she just needs to wait a little bit and you will forget all about it. This is a common cheater thought that the betrayed will just, "Get over it" with some time.
I bet you bottled up all the pain from being cheated on and she hasn't seen how much it has consumed your life. That is ok because that is exactly what the 180 is and grey rock.
I think you need even more space and something else to focus on in your life. Take up working out. It will fill some of your time and get you out of the house. Reading is fun and all, but you need to move some iron to quell your anger and the people at the gym are super nice. Plus this will push you to eat and increase your patience.
My other suggestion which has shown up here before is to get an apartment and work out a schedule where you 2 take turns going to the apartment or staying home. You 2 are never in the same house, but neither of you gets the house 100% of the time. That would satisfy your separation agreement which I think is the hope your WW is holding onto. Thinking that you will get frustrated and just give up on filing. I am surprised she hasn't tried to seduce you. It is still early though, that is usually like week 3-4, so look out this week or next. She will think she will use her magic cooch to help you forget how she hurt you because in her head you won the prize. You won her over another guy who she had hook line and sinker. She almost did you a favor in her head. That is the messed up mind of someone who cheated and hasn't figured out they need to grovel and say sorry.
Good luck. Get that apartment, I know 4-6 people who did that on here to force the situation. Watch out for the seduction coming, stay emptied if you know what I mean.

posts: 714   ·   registered: Aug. 7th, 2019   ·   location: Midwest
id 8765213
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LostInHisFog ( member #78503) posted at 6:40 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

Just a question:

Why is my WW still going to the grocery store, still making us dinner, and just sitting in her room with the door wide open?

Rugsweeping + playing the long wait game, the "aren’t you over this yet" game

They can make as many promises as they want, but if they don't put action behind it, it doesn't mean anything.

I edit because I'm fluent in typo & autocorrect hates me.

posts: 300   ·   registered: Mar. 14th, 2021
id 8765216
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The1stWife ( member #58832) posted at 8:56 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

Why is she cooking dinner and leaving her door open?

To tell herself that’s she really trying to fix the marriage. That’s she not the "typical cheater" like every other cheater.

She’s hoping you go to her and make amends (which is ludicrous in this situation).

Survived two affairs and brink of Divorce. Happily reconciled.

posts: 12781   ·   registered: May. 19th, 2017
id 8765220
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Seeking2Forgive ( member #78819) posted at 9:04 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

Yeah, she's literally leaving the door open for you to "get over it" and slide back into your old spot and pretend like nothing happened. Don't fall for it.

I understand not wanting to be too hasty, but if you've given her conditions that you require for R then you should set a deadline for yourself of how long you're willing to wait for that to happen. Don't present it as an ultimatum. It's purely a line in the sand for YOUR reference to give yourself permission and impetus to act.

Me: 60, BS -- Her: 59, FWS -- Dday: 11/15/03 -- Married 37 yrs -- Reconciled

posts: 451   ·   registered: May. 18th, 2021
id 8765221
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Bigger ( Attaché #8354) posted at 11:22 AM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

We say this all the time here on SI: Infidelity is fantasy.
This is why we recommend exposing the affair and making the (possible) consequences reality.
When you contacted the OM wife (even if divorced – I sort-of doubt they are, maybe she’s divorcing or whatever…) it got back to OM. He reacted the way probably 9 out of 10 OM react. At best:
"Honey – you know what we have is real and true love and white horses riding along the beach at sunset and all that, but reality is that I have to sacrifice my happiness for my kids and my wife. Alas our love is not to be so maybe we shouldn’t talk for a while. How long? Like maybe never again…"
More likely:
"Don’t ever contact me again. You were only some ass to me. Go away!"
Rejection by your paramour is a real mood-killer….

Then there is the reaction to the freedom you offer her by not chasing after her attention:
Instead of men competing over her and/or her having to sacrifice her true happiness because of the ogre-at-home (Rambler) you simply tell her: Sharing you is worse than losing you. Go be happy, but not as my wife.
In 9 out of 10 instances betrayed husbands react by trying to win their WW back. They compete with the OM, thereby (partially) justifying the excuses used for "why" she had to have the affair.

So now you have your wife whose affair with the OM has been terminated. Be it his choice or her.
You now have your wife who is waiting for you to give way. After all – she HAS offered counseling so you can fix what forced her to have to have this small, innocent affair…

If nothing prods this along the present situation will remain in place until it becomes the new norm. you two will possibly start having sex again, go out to the Jones for dinner and start arguing over if the next vehicle should be a Ford or a Toyota, Hawaii or Florida.

Rambler – your next steps are impacted by what you want. Do you want out of this marriage? If so, then proceed with the divorce at a reasonably fast pace. If adultery impacts any possible settlement, then a delay minimizes that impact.
Do you want a shot at reconciliation? If so then your wife might need some information on her next steps. IMHO that step should be an acknowledgement that her decision to have an affair is totally on her, that NOTHING you did or the marriage offered explains or justifies that decision and that she needs IC to resolve why she decided to go that way to solve her problems. This is a very big step, and I don’t really recall a single instance where a WS managed to handle that all in one day. It’s a process. Her first step – the sign that R might be possible – is simply a willingness to START that work.

Even if she does, it shouldn’t stop YOU from preparing for the journey along the D route. Maybe even set off on the first few miles. But it can impact your pace, and if you think at some point R is open, you switch lanes.

If you want to divorce, then simply set your attorney free to start the process.
If you want to R, then tell your wife something along the lines I suggested in my first post: she is free to do what she wants but not as you wife.
Then tell her that since she is still in infidelity her attorney should have informed her of the separation requirement in your state. For that period to start you need to have separate legal addresses. Is it realistic that either of you keeps the family home or is it just as well to get it on market now to enable you both your places of residence?
If she wants the marriage she has to tell you in a very clear way that she wants it. No excuses, not yes but or well ifs. Her willingness to be married is not dependent on YOU changing, but dependent on her shouldering her accountability and you two embarking on some serious work.

I want to share this about reconciling…
It’s not the process of getting over the affair. That is only a small part of it. The first couple of years are consumed on that part, but the real purpose of R is a lot more long-term IMHO. A couple that embrace reconciliation work on communications, joint goals, a vision for marriage. They learn to express themselves to each other, and allows them to grow as a couple and as individuals.

This is a lot of work, a lot of growth. You want to be as certain as you can that the person you are reconciling with is the person you want with you on that path… Sometimes infidelity happens in marriages that are – to all purposes – dead already…

The best comparison I have is where you decide to get into shape and live a healthy lifestyle after a cardiac arrest. You can get the best running sneakers, the best spandex sportswear, the best books on nutrition and the best gym membership, but it’s not until you start pounding those roads, lifting those weights and eating salmon and kale that your health slowly starts improving. After maybe 5 years you might be looking at some old photos and see the old, tired, fat, and pale Rambler and think "Wow – I am so glad I changed everything and am so much healthier now". You would never think "Thank God I had a cardiac arrest because that made me change everything". You would have long realized you could have done all the improvement and change without first having the health-scare. Same applies to couples that do reconcile – they don’t think fondly to the affair, but are grateful for the work they have done on their relationship.

"If, therefore, any be unhappy, let him remember that he is unhappy by reason of himself alone." Epictetus

posts: 11130   ·   registered: Sep. 29th, 2005
id 8765222
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Trdd ( member #65989) posted at 1:26 PM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

Have you told her what you require to consider R as a possible option?

Be clear and direct. I need you to do a,b,c and I need you to stop doing x,y,z. If you make a sincere effort to do these things then I will consider R as an option to pursue. Be direct about her behavior, what you like and what is not working. And also that without these things you see D as the only choice.

Has she read something like How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair? You could recommend that to her. I know she should be researching on her own but some people need the nudge. It seems like her cooking and door open is a sign she might be open to your direction.

Of course if you are leaning toward D anyway none of this matters. But if you think you might want R, I believe it's ok to coach the WW so she understands what you need. It's a bit distasteful after an A to have to help her get it but the reality is many waywards need direction and her stubborn, prideful response is hurting her ability to seek it.

[This message edited by Trdd at 1:28 PM, Tuesday, November 15th]

posts: 696   ·   registered: Aug. 27th, 2018   ·   location: US
id 8765230
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Rocko ( new member #80436) posted at 1:28 PM on Tuesday, November 15th, 2022

Rover,

Stop eating her dinners, do your own laundry, stop doing chores for her. Show her you don't need her to live a good life. Take your DD out for dinner most nights, leaving her at home with her door open.

posts: 15   ·   registered: Jul. 18th, 2022   ·   location: Where It's Hot
id 8765232
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