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If the attorney that she consulted with told her that she could clean you out in a divorce, she would be moving forward with it at light speed.

The reason I can say this so definitively— even though I don’t know your wife personally— is because she’s had no compunctions about coercing you financially in the past (ie, signing a lease for her business without your knowledge and consent and then forcing you to co-sign a personal loan for it after the fact).

I would be interested in what she means by "help her after the separation." Does she expect you to continue to support her, even if you’re not mandated by the court? Does she want to be able to run to you for handouts whenever she’s short?

In your position, I would’ve been so tempted to retort, "Why can’t you ask your AP for help? He helped get you in this mess; he can help you dig you out of it." I commend you for your self-control during that exchange.

The most important thing you’ve learned from this is that you hold all the cards. This is probably the first time in your marriage that your wife has felt like she’s not in control… which the actual source of any sadness and regret that you’re observing from her at the moment, not remorse for having an affair in the first place.

It’s good that you are continuing to proceed with D, but as you mull over whether R is even a possibility, you need to sit down and take an inventory of her behavior and actions throughout your marriage as a whole and decide if she is really who you can commit to spending the rest of your life with and who you can trust to make life-or-death decisions for you on your behalf if you were seriously ill or incapacitated.

The loan and the infidelity are just 2 examples of her doing whatever she wants and not giving a shit about how it will affect you until after the fact. Then there’s her manipulative tactic of icing you out whenever you have a conflict until you finally cave and reach out to her. Also, how she so coldly and cruelly berated your daughter when she was initially confronted about her infidelity.

As for the affair happening because you don’t have enough common interests… bullshit. First, it’s not your job as a husband to keep her entertained. Second, when has she ever tried to take an interest in anything you’re interested in or passionate about? I’m going to take a wild guess and say that she hasn’t… her definition of "sharing common interests" is probably you indulging whatever her whims are at a given moment.

Again, I can say this with certainty without knowing the woman based on everything you’ve shared thus far.

And let’s not forget that as recently as last week, she spent the entire day at the home of a male client so she could cry on his shoulder about how terrible her marriage is and how she had no choice but to step out on you. Is that the behavior of a woman who is remorseful and has even the slightest bit of compassion toward the husband and children she’s hurt?

My point is that while it might be possible for your marriage to survive this affair, the only thing that will change your wife into a completely different person is reincarnation.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:19 PM, Wednesday, November 16th]

All right, y'all.

Situation has made a turn and not a good one and very serious. Not sure how much I will share going forward.

Basically she called herself out as being a horrible person. She has hit rock bottom. She has put the blame on all herself, and told me she has thought about suicide every day since I found out. She said she would never do that, but it's something that I need to deal with now. She is broken inside. She is most upset at the fact that she doesn't think she has it in her to gain back my trust and she doesn't deserve it. It's not a choice she is making, but a lack of feeling on her part, and that is tearing her up. She is empty inside.

She is making an appt with a therapist to try and figure out "why she is a horrible person" and why she is so selfish. It goes deeper than our marriage, deeper than me. It's something that has always been there and she has never addressed. I feel I have been giving her too much credit during these past 2 weeks. She hasn't been out there deceiving me and trying to find ways to get what she wants, she has been dealing with her own demons. Looking through the lens of her as a broken person crying for help gives me a new perspective on these past 2 weeks.

Although this marriage may be over, we are both humans and with the conversation today, the dynamic has shifted from saving the marriage to saving another human who I have spent 27 years of my life with and helping them be a better person.

[This message edited by sven at 2:35 PM, Wednesday, November 16th]

I do hope you and your wife can get her all the help she needs.
Even if its as friends, that can be a long hard road for both of you.
I do wish you, and her, all the best in this.

If I under well, your WW came into your room to discuss the situation.

First, she "apologized" for the adultery however with the very important "BUT" comment. "I'm sorry I cheated on you BUT you made me do it". The one most important lessons in life I have learned was that anything said before the magical "BUT/HOWEVER/IN VIEW OF/choose your conditional", means absolutely nothing.

Second, she says she never had sex with this guy, however, "KNOWS" she gets no alimony, which seems like an odd concession except if she knew it was never going to hold up scrutiny.

Third, this epiphany of finally wanting to speak with you, occurred only after the silent treatment didn't work, the OM dropped her like a bad memory and she realized her fantasy business really isn't a business but what the IRS would most likely consider more of a hobby and thus cannot support her.

Sir, most people would consider these motivations less than altruistic and most likely at least mostly motivated from a perspective of enlightened self interest on her part.

Questions,

What do you think her course of action would be today if the OM had said come to me and lets live happily ever after?

What do you think her behavior would be if not for the Sword of Damocles in regard to the elimination of the alimony?

What do you think all the gym/botox/hgh whatever treatments have been for since it was obviously not for you?

Do you remember your confrontation with her, the indifferent shrug (I suspect more of a smirk) she gave you when you asked if she was still in contact with OM? That was the moment you saw her intentions and who frankly she is without being tethered to you financially.

I fear she is only regretting her actions as they have failed so spectacularly. Protect yourself, or you'll end up back here with another DDay and this time you may not have the same leverage.

[This message edited by blahblahblahe at 3:00 PM, Wednesday, November 16th]

It truly sounds like she just not in love with you and she is struggling with the fact that she isn't. She knows divorce will ruin her financial security and not to mention the break up of family.

She knows she should love you and she probably wishes she did. But, she just isn't feeling it.

I hope she gets the help she needs.

I hope once her crisis has passed, you continue to do what is best for you. Whatever that ends up being.

I hope she changes her ways and stops the manipulative behavior. I think this is the first time it had not worked with you and she’s had the rug pulled out from her. She’s at a loss to know what to do next.

There is a book that can help her called How to Help Your Spouse Heal from An Affair. I think it will help her in so many areas.

Careful suicide or talk of suicide can often be used as a manipulation tool

What you do know is she cheated, and you still don't have the full truth.
She is losing control, because you are not falling into old habits.
OM left her high and dry, so now she has to make plan B work or her happy little life w/ all the tings she wants goes away.

Be very very careful. You can provide support and still set firm boundaries.
I would also encourage you to get her to her PCP or ER with a threat of self harm, it is no joke, and if you do this it will be made very clear if it is a true issue or a manipulation.
Call the bluff, I know you don't think it's a bluff because the woman you love is obviously hurting, but remember why she is hurting. She did this to herself.

she’s still blaming you by saying "we don’t like to do the same things"

How can you "do things with her" if all the time available she had she was spending it emocionally sending nudes to her OP and spending it emocionally getting to know him at those moments? If she would spend half the time she did with him with you, maybe you both could have found some commom interests and/or things you both would enjoy doing together.

And this aspect his common on the cheaters side. The other half is always to blame while the WS miserably fail to realize the amount of time dedicated to the "fog" they spent and the amount of damage each interaction was doing to the marriage were the true "distancing" factors.

She basically dedicated her time to her lover. Dedicated her emocional efforts and conection to her lover. How could she not expect anything but this shitshow of a mess? It is not hard to understand she would not fancy doing things with you then. Her "quality time" was being all spent with him/for him. How could she have any spare time to do "common things" with you (or even dedicate her time looking for "commom interests") if she spent all the fricking days on unicorn land texting and dedicating herself all to him? Think about this considerably man.

Don't fall for that falacious afirmation. She could well tell you she did not get along with you on whatever aspect it took and get out of the marriage without betraying you like that.

Disrespect, it is all that it was. I ask: Did you betrayed her in that manner? If the answer is no you know now where I'm going with this. It was on her. Not on you.

I do hope all goes for the best with you. But I really can't see that happening with your WS at the moment. She does not seem to be really remorseful and willing to REALLY go the lenght to amend the bad things she has done to you. She seems worried about the financial aspect of things specially. She seems out of love for you at the moment. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I am.

Stand your ground. Give it time for yourself to access what you want/need going forward - being it without her or with her. Support her but don´t go the lenght of forcefully go into R because of the suicide considerations. She has to be accountable for herself as an adult woman. She can always have phsyquiatric help going forward. Your help does not need to cease as soon as you take a step back from the relationship. You do so to protect yourself. Your health and your well being is also paramount.

Always access her ACTIONS and not her words. And be ready to be thrown down of a cliff if the worst happens - if she is not being remorseful and his only trying to cover her interests (in the case you do R). Second time is way worse than the first.

All the best to you.

[This message edited by justanotherperson at 7:30 PM, Wednesday, November 16th]

She did this to herself.

She knows that now. This is the first time in 27 years I have seen her like this. She is at rock bottom and full of self pity...saying things like she is a horrible person, that all of this is her fault and she knows something is wrong with her but she doesn't know what. This is all new to both of us and frankly, I don't know what to do except be supportive, because that is my nature. Again, I am not saying we are going to R, but something has broken in her and whether she knows it or not, she is screaming for help.

As I mentioned before, I think I have been giving her too much credit these past 2 weeks. I don't think she is being manipulative, at least not consciencely, but she is most definitely broken and at rock bottom not just in the marriage, but in her life. She has a barrier in her that is keeping her from doing what she knows she wants to do. Until she figures out why that barrier is there, she will never heal. She had a f'd up childhood. Her mother is selfish, let her do whatever she wanted with no consequences, never had open dialogue, was married 3 times and now has a live in BF. And no one likes my mother in law. My kids hate going to see her and whenever she is with family she starts a fight because she is selfish and thinks the world should revolve around her. I think this is part of, if not the root, of my WW's issues.

I am trying to protect myself. My attorney told me I CANNOT put a waiver of alimony in a post-nup. That can only be in a separation agreement or a reconciliation agreement. That means she needs to move out if I want to protect alimony. I have a call with her to discuss options.

Like I said before, I think over these past 2 weeks all the "what-ifs" have been killing me. I may never know the full truth of the A and I don't know if I really want the full truth. What I know is enough. At some point I need to take her at her word and just believe what she says. Again, not saying that I am going to R, but right now it feels like the shift in the relationship from the A being the most important thing to making sure the person I have spent 1/2 my life with can find a better place, with or without me. There is no hate in relationship; there never was, even after the A. Just a lot of disappointment knowing we both could have done better and anger that we let it go this long without using the tools available to make it better. The path she chose was the wrong one. That is something that I need to work on because this is my future too.

When I first starting thinking about R and what it would require of her, I had this "checklist". A lot of it came from this forum. Full confession, absolute remorse, a voiced desire to R, etc. She is checking all those boxes and doing so freely. My choice is to continue thinking that there is an ulterior motive behind all of it, or accept it face value and start rebuilding my life with or without her. That is something I am sincerely struggling with at the moment.

Be supportive of her, as much as your pain and own need for healing will allow. You don't need to make a decision about D or R immediately. Look to see if this turn in her is sustained and how she comes through it. Don't let it be a reason to rugsweep, but a pause until she makes progress from her immediate risky state does not mean you can't eventually address everything you need if you cgoose to offer her a chance at R.

Rover – I started this before your last post. I’m sticking to it but read under the dotted line too.

I don’t think I can overstate this.

In a relationship like marriage is supposed to be there isn’t really any room for secrets. I’m not talking small relatively innocent secrets but large impactful ones like infidelity, secret debt, an addiction problem, a child from before or whatever. This is why we regularly get posters whose spouse comes clean on something they didn’t have a clue about from way in the past. Its because they realize they can’t really have a good marriage with a rotting pink elephant in the home.

If your wife would tell you NOW or in the next very few days that she met OM, that she went to a swingers sex-club with him, there were recordings online on porn-sites and whatever NOW your marriage could still survive. You can recover from what you know.

However… if you were to work at reconciling and maybe six months from now things were getting better and THEN that your wife told you that she did meet OM during those three days… even if there was no physical touching… that discovery could cause more damage than ANYTHING shared today.

The truth will come out. If it comes out now it can be dealt with. If it comes out later it can be devastating. It’s like this infidelity is a big sore. Right now it might hurt like hell to disinfect it, sow and clean. But it starts healing. Discovering new "truths" as you heal is like the scab being torn again and again, and sand being strewn into the raw hurt. Repeatedly.

She HAS TO understand this. She really needs to understand – as do you – that a failure in a poly maybe 2-3 weeks from now would be the end of any belief in you that reconciliation is even possible.

Ask for a timeline on those three days alone.

Ask in sufficient but not too much detail.

Where did she stay?

What did she do during the evenings?

Where did she eat?

Whom did she visit over the day?

What did she do over the day?

For now don’t ask for too much detail. You want to allow her to fill in later.

Once she has told you what she did… start corroborating the story.

Like if she says she stayed at the Hilton and that she had an early night and ordered from room-service. That during the day she went shopping.

That the second evening she went out to dinner with her friend Sally but was back by 10 PM.

That the third day she slept in but then went for lunch at some restaurant alone before heading for some shopping or an art-gallery or whatever.

Once you have her story start corroborating with the evidence you can get.

Judge her reaction – especially hesitation or excuses.

Like the hotel bill. Ask to see it. She can’t find it or it’s lost? Have her phone and ask for her itemized bill by e-mail. Hotels get this request daily for all sorts of accounting reasons and it takes them all of 3 minutes.

Hotel can’t find her reservation to send a bill? Where is the charge to the credit card? Its rather rare that hotels accept cash. They tend to want a card to guarantee payment. Is the reservation in her name? Do the charges make sense for one person? Is there a charge for room-service? Did she really have a salad, a chicken-sandwich, a bottle of red wine and a bottle of champagne on her night in?

Have her phone Sally and let her know that she’s handing the phone over to you and she should please answer some questions. The friend Sally can be told that you two are dealing with an affair, and can she confirm where they had dinner on the night of xx (don’t ask what place – maybe Sally says they ordered in) – confirm the name of restaurant, the type (Italian, Mexican…), where they sat, what they had and so on. Then – once Sally has told you her details – ask your wife the same.

Get it? You corroborate the stories to what evidence you can get. Be careful that maybe recalling she got pizza while Sally thought lasagna isn’t the deal-breaker. But Sally saying Italian on Main Street and your wife Chinees in the suburbs…

Your wife is supposed to feel like she’s being interrogated. She needs to fully understand that the KEY to redemption is that you KNOW what happened. That the ONLY path forwards for the marriage is for you to be able to say "OK – I think I have the truth, and if a poly confirms it then I will accept that as fact." This is the key to enable YOU to reconcile.

The items I think I would be interested in and focus on:

Those three days.

The content of the pictures sent. If explicit what is the risk of them being found online? What steps is she taking to protect herself in this regard?

What was the extent of their communications? Was there any phone-sex, online sex etc?

--

Her talk of suicide should be taken seriously, but shouldn’t control you.

I have this basic belief that a person is married only because he wants to be married. If you and your wife divorce, things will be OK. In 2-3 years she will be doing fine, and so will you. Life goes on. I think this is a message you need to get to her. That a divorce isn’t the end of the world.

She also needs to understand that she does have control. The truth I’m hammering on… if she’s truthful you commit to not filing and working on your anger, hurt and emotions for 30 days. That’s all you can promise, and it’s better than not filing today and then learning 2 weeks from now that they sexted, or met, or kissed or whatever. THAT would automatically end the marriage.

There is no way to avoid the blame and the embarrassment. It’s what it is. But both of you will get over it. It’s in her hands to create the environment where you believe reconciliation might be possible, and then your hands to offer it.

I think your emotions about a positive (for you) divorce are at best semi-realistic. I have a feeling that the support payments would be relatively limited anyways, and you are maybe going from 100% to 60% for some limited time. This isn’t Taliban controlled where the adulteress is lucky to not get stoned. I think that your vision of some 70/30 split isn’t realistic, but maybe something closer to the 50/50. Have you asked your attorney what support payments would be without infidelity and what they could be in your situation?

In all these factors consult your attorney. Remember money has many colors and not all are green. You could place in your post-nup that all debts related to her and her business are paid with whatever spousal support you might have to pay. That this clause is valid until these debts have been paid (so if you reconcile and work things out they get paid in the next 2 years the clause is dead). You could place that you have the option of buying the family home at an as-is value that’s 80% of fair market value, or that she get’s the house (but keeps the mortgage) in lieu of your pension and/or savings.

If this can’t be done in a post-nup then ask your attorney about the impact time can have on the adultery in divorce. If you can file and then just wait and see. It should become clear in the next 30 days if your wife is really capable of reconciling.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:55 PM, Wednesday, November 16th]

Rover – one point:

I walked in on my fiancé having sex with another man.
If I had options I would all day select the option of not having a fiancé that cheated. I would have preferred she simply told me she had doubts about the marriage and wanted out. Would have been hard, but that is the correct "process".

But… if I had the choice of learning about her affair or seeing her affair… I would choose walking in on them all day long.

Whatever I can imagine is so much worse than what I saw.
I just saw a man humping a woman. There was no gymnastics involved, he didn’t have a super-schlong, the cats in the neighborhood weren’t trying to evade the orgasmic screaming.

IF your wife and OM met you can imagine porn-star level. wild, loud and enthusiastic sex. You can imagine them rambling across the grass at the park, hand-in-hand, sharing their most intimate secrets. Part of the process of revealing the truth is for HER to see it in the same light: two people sneaking, looking over their shoulders and then the quick, unpersonal sex between two people whose compatibility is solely based on their willingness to cheat.
Reality tends to be so much clearer than imagination.

Don't rugsweep the affair b/c you think she has hit rock bottom.

Let your attorney know that your wife has expressed ideas of self harm (its not suicide and they won't event take her in if she doesn't have a full drawn out plan). So share that with your attorney, and in the meantime, you can back off the answers on the affair, but keep moving forward. Whether she wakes up from her own fog is on her. If you want to help her set up IC appointments and so forth, do what you believe is right, but don't put your own mental health and future on hold for her b/c she chose to cheat on you.

The whole rock bottom and she is at her lowest point is your guess, but you don't truly know where she's at, and why she feels that way. It could very well be that she feels sorry for herself, and not you, and that part of it is who she thought was her true love abandoned her quickly once his wife found out. She got dumped, and now realizes that her fallback person isn't taking this lying down any longer and she's financially screwed and only getting older. That's not someone you want to R with. That's someone whose broken about her life choices, and how her life is going to suck going forward. The fact that just a day ago, she said that she's not ready to grovel and do whatever it takes to beg you for forgiveness is not someone who is R ready. That is someone who is starting to realize that she really screwed up her own life, BUT where is I screwed things up for MrRover sound track.

Keep moving yourself forward Rover. You've been doing a good job and getting good advice. If your WW turns herself around, you can still R, but don't wait for it to happen, you just keep moving one step ahead of the next to get yourself clean and clear out of infidelity.

Just a note about suicide talk, although you should take it seriously, you also have to really watch her actions. My ex MIL use to say that all the time for sympathy, but she would never ever take her own life. She also lied to people that she had cancer when she in fact did not for the same reason. Wanna know if its fake or not, threaten to call police and threaten to have her taken away to protect herself and you might see her straiten up real quick and let you know she wasn't really serious. Like I said above they won't take her anyway unless they can confirm that she has a plan on how she was going to do it, which she does not.

Careful w/ the rock bottom thing.

Remorse and Shame are two very separate things. What you are describing is self focused - suicidal thoughts, what have I done? that's all shame based.

Remorse is outward focused - How do I fix this for you, how do I help you understand I am done being a selfish cheater?

See the difference?

Please, Please deeply consider Tushnurse’s, Bigger’s et Al posts regarding manipulation.

Suicide threats are many times a VERY effective form of manipulation.

Her suicidal ideations and rock bottom ideations have already had a profound effect on you, have already swung you round 180 degrees.

Just remain cognizant of the possibility that these are forms of manipulation where she assumes a victim role and you now the rescuer.

Also, WS’s who have immersed themselves in toxic and paralyzing self pity, are extremely poor candidates for reconciliation. They redirect all the care and healing focus, away from the injured BS, back unto themselves very selfishly. That same selfishness that contributed to their affair.

It’s called Toxic Shame. Instead of doing the HARD work of reconciliation, redemption and self improvement, they go pity seeking and wallow around in their shame. Shame can be very debilitating, paralyzing, and can stifle true remorse. Shame is a more selfish emotion. Remorse is relatively selfless, with greater focus on the BS.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 6:24 PM, Wednesday, November 16th]

This is all new to both of us and frankly

Ya well not so new for her, she's been at this for what, 8 months?

R or D, don't know what's right for you, but posters on this forum have reconciled worse situations than yours.

I hope she can find her way back to you.

You have been heard.
This is a difficult time, but you are in control of yourself and your actions moving forward.
I am so sorry you find yourself here.

Take care of yourself today.

Rover, I’m so sorry you are having to deal with such a hot mess. I admire that you are approaching it so rationally and like a gentleman (sorry if not politically correct but Im old and stuck in my ways).

What would stick out for me was wondering if after R she really loved me and was committed to me as I would be for her. I really believe in the "two becomes one" in a marriage and did not think my XW really respected me enough to ever reach that level after R and in fact maybe she never did. But I see other independent marriages work and maybe it’s OK for you. Just a thought to consider.

In my case I filed for D with the idea that I could always stop it but I never did. I did learn a lot about myself and how I could be a husband I would be proud of through the process.Met my now wife 30 years ago and we have been peas and carrots ever since. I’m so glad I did settle for less.

She knows that now. This is the first time in 27 years I have seen her like this. She is at rock bottom and full of self pity...saying things like she is a horrible person, that all of this is her fault and she knows something is wrong with her but she doesn't know what. This is all new to both of us and frankly, I don't know what to do except be supportive, because that is my nature. Again, I am not saying we are going to R, but something has broken in her and whether she knows it or not, she is screaming for help.

^^^This from the same woman who before learning of her pending circumstances, was rather smug about the whole deal. This is what the 180 is for, to protect you from becoming emotionally enmeshed with her. This is a method of drawing you back into her circle by appealing to your self-image as a protector. Please be very, very careful. Use the 180 and remind yourself continually that she fired you as her husband / provider / protector. If she wants to be married to you, she can wait to remarry you after the divorce, because this marriage is dead. If you two are able to build anything together it will be new. I wish you the best.