SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I found out my wife had a burner phone and was sending let’s say very descriptive audio and photos of herself to another guy. Also texts where they were trying to arrange to meet up in Sicily.

For the sake of our marriage and family I put this to one side . Though it’s not as raw as it once was I don’t think I have ever had 100% trust in my wife since which is quite depressing for me to deal with.

She now works in Italy every other week and spends 3 days there.

Given the history I was less than happy about her spending time abroad as I thought she may cheat on me again but have a physical relationship this time. I had to put it to one side and just hoped nothing would happen.

This week after her spending three years making business trips to Italy I heard loads of notifications on her laptop and she hadn’t closed it completely so it was unlocked . I saw she and this other italian guy were arranging to Meet in whatsapp. She said she didn’t meet him and that they were just old university friends. I translated more of their chat later on and saw they were telling each other they had arrived at a station in Milan. She then admitted she had met him once. Later in I spotted he has written "meet at the usual place" which meant obviously they had met several times. In his text he also said it would best best to choose certain days as he was alone (ie not with his wife). I challenged her again and she admitted she had met him several times and only kissed him in the cheek and cuddled. I was of course incensed and I didn’t sleep for 3 nights.she said she lied because if I found out she was seeing any man I would be suspicious which frankly seems ridiculous because I was aware she had many meals alone with her male work colleagues.

I am at a total loss as to what to do. She obviously is a serial liar. I don’t think she will ever tell me the truth so I can’t know whether the version of events now is accurate. It seems at every step she has to have the truth dragged out of her. This could be someone she is extremely fond of . She said he was funny and enjoyed his company but I think I’m at a point where I can’t suffer much more with it as it’s affecting my health.

I did say maybe his wife can’t get the truth out of him if she can’t be truthful at which she looked am scared . Not sure if this is because news would then get around his social circle which some of her friends shared or whether she was worried about the truth coming out . I thought why should I ruin his marriage when it’s my wife’s behaviour that is the problem.

Hi OP.

You're among friends here, there a good many smart, empathetic posters who will offer their advice on your marriage.

A couple of questions to help everyone give you advice:

- how long have you been married"
- how old are each of you?
- do you have children, and how old?
- you described your wife travelling for business, do you work, too?

Many, many men in your situation have learned critical information by talking to the other man's (OM) wife. Absolutely do it. Also this quite often is like bug killer, getting the other spouse involved can stop the affair dead if her wrath of wife descends upon him.

I'll end with this observation, I think it's going to be difficult to regain trust and wholeness in your marriage when your wife is travelling out of country for work. Many reasons, you have no idea if she's cheating, and furthermore a very difficult time I should think uncovering what she is up to when travelling. Also, to reconcile the two of you need to spend quality time together to rebuild your trust and solidify the connection between the two of you. I'm putting the cart before the horse, you're going to need a serious commitment from your wife to work on your marriage. Not easy if she travels often.

Sorry you are experiencing this. There will be a lot of great advice coming from many wise people here.

Unfortunately, the odds are very, very high that your WW (wayward wife) is lying to you about the extent of the relationship. It happens 95% of the time. Think about it. She is already hiding this from you and lying about the frequency of it. She is meeting a guy in Milan multiple times without your knowledge and he is scheduling it so his wife will not be there. But we just "kiss and cuddle". Hmmm, yes dear, the sky is green not blue. Rain is made of angel's tears, not water.

She is 85% likely to be in a physical affair with sex and 99% likely that this is an emotional affair. Kissing leads to sex with adults. Add in away from home in a city like Milan of all places and, well, how could it not? For some reason WW admit to kissing and the BS will believe it. We want to believe it so sometimes we do. But it is rarely the whole story.

So you need to get out of infidelity. That means taking a hard line on this and avoiding rugsweeping or the pick me dance. Read about the 180 process in the library here and in the sticky posts in the JFO forum. You'll have to decide if you blow this up now and reveal all you know with her or wait to gather more data. For me, it sounds like all you need but if there is another source of data you could easily explore you should consider doing that first. Phone location data, credit card receipts, messages to her female friends where she might disclose info etc.

As far as getting her to tell the truth, people will share different strategies with you. Pressing her with the facts you have, telling her you know more happened, using a polygraph test etc. Its nice to have concrete evidence but often you only get some, which you already have. Logic tells you she is in an affair with what you know already once you learn that most waywards pretty much behave with the same patterns.

Long business trips with someone tempted are a terrible combination. If you want to try to R, she'll need a different job. If you choose to D, having her keep her job will probably help you with the divorce settlement.

Once you decide next steps reference gathering more information or confronting now, you need to alert the other wife of what is happening. Every single person here will tell you to do that. She deserves to know and he deserves his consequences too. If you want to try to R, it will also help end the affair by exposing it.

And unfortunately, you'll need an STD test too. This guy could be sleeping with many women. Best to have your WW get one once you confront her.

[This message edited by Trdd at 12:41 PM, Saturday, August 6th]

I’m sorry you are facing this in your marriage. But please continue to post here and get advice and support from oriole who have been in your position.

We laughiingly refer to the fictitious Cheater’s Manual because the behavior of the cheater is predictable to a certain extent.

Based on what you told us so far, odds are they have been having an Affair for some time and have met up more than 2-3 and had sex.

Will the cheater be honest? That depends. In some cases the cheater never provides 100% of the truth but it’s pretty darn close. In other cases the cheater only admits what the betrayed spouse can prove. And then there ate some that are in the middle of those two extremes - you get some truth but not the full truth. And the truth trickled out over time too (which is agonizing too).

You need to figure out if you can live with this and reconcile or if you just need to D. Sometimes an affair is a dealbreaker. Period. No other options.

It may help to get yourself some professional counseling.

It may help to speak to a Divorce attorney just to find out how D works in your locale.

Then figure out if your cheating spouse is worth the time and effort to Rrconcile and if you can still have a happy marriage. If you don’t think you will be happy, then there’s your answer. You need to D.

I hope your wife chooses to stop cheating and decides to put the Marriage first.

Sorry that you are here. But if you take the time to stick around, read other's stories, and apply the advice given, you can get out of infidelity much faster figuring it out on your own.

Given the history I was less than happy about her spending time abroad as I thought she may cheat on me again but have a physical relationship this time. I had to put it to one side and just hoped nothing would happen.

Poldark, the one thing that you will learn when dealing with infidelity, is that the passive person will get steamrolled. Add in the fact that the cheater is several steps ahead already, so you will never catch up until you stop playing their game.

She said she didn’t meet him and that they were just old university friends.

Do you know what the #1 lie is when first discovering infidelity? "We are just friends."

The #2 lie? "We never met."
#3 lie? "We met, but nothing happened."
#4 lie? "We just kissed."
#5 lie? "We had sex, but just once."
#6, 7, 8, etc. lie? ........The next incremental step.

To answer your question, at least for right now, is that NO, her version of events is not accurate. That is based directly upon her being dishonest through the entire process. What action(s) has she taken to prove to you that she is being honest? Has she been fully transparent? Has she tried to recover all of her old texts to ease your mind?

There is a saying that the partner who is less invested holds the strength in the marriage. That appears to be your wife. It is your goal to convince yourself that you would prefer to walk away from this marriage as opposed to living in doubt.....and MEAN IT.....that will show if your wife is willing to try to become a safe partner.

I did say maybe his wife can’t get the truth out of him if she can’t be truthful at which she looked am scared .

She looked scared because she’s more interested in protecting her affair partner than she is in protecting her husband and marriage. Right now she’s cake eating. Cake eaters take their spouses for granted and rarely admit more than you can prove.

Make transparency a requirement for reconciliation. All of her electronics and social media should be open to you with all passwords provided. She should write out a timeline that includes all inappropriate behavior since you have been a couple, to be verified by polygraph. If she actually agrees to this prepare to discover much more cheating behavior.

You should both read How to Help Your Spouse Heal from Your Affair and Not Just Friends.

Obviously, she cannot continue in her present employment. You can’t trust her out of your sight much less out of the country.

Any friends who knew and supported her cheating should be gone.

If she refuses any of this start the 180 and prepare for divorce. Your goal in either case is to get out of infidelity. Start moving forward, if she follows reconciliation may be possible, but often cheating is a dealbreaker.

Good luck.

There are two things that come up here quite often, the cheater's script and the mythical cheater's handbook. For many of us BSs, it is a darkly humorous way of dealing with the pain of infidelity. Hell, I've even played with the idea of making a set of cheater's bingo cards filled with the stupid things they say on Dday.

Sadly, like water that must find its easiest route, cheaters default to certain words or actions. It's just human nature. Think of your wife like a dial with incremental settings, or better yet Stanley Milgram's shock box. She will only admit to either what you can immediately prove, or the very next setting on the affair disclosure meter. If you can prove that she only texted, then that is all she will fuss up to. If she needs to confess a little more to placate you, then they may have met up once in passing, which turns into twice, which turns into a kiss, then a quick blow job, then they only had sex once, then only a couple of times but she didn't enjoy it, until finally, it's been a full blown affair lasting years with plans to leave you. There always seems to be more and she will tearfully plead that she withheld the very nextvrevelatio in order to protect you from further pain. Yeah, that's bullshit.

In the end, cheaters are just shitty people who make shitty choices and then do and say whatever they can to protect their asses. Some will say that they are good people who make bad choices, but where is the tipping point? By that logic, there are no bad people and that is just intuitively wrong for me. I'm not saying cheaters cannot become better people, but I judge a tree by its fruit. When they are cheating, they are awful people.

Who you thought you married and who you actually married are quite different, and coming to grips with that shitty reality is incredibly painful, at least it was for me. In the process, I had to come to terms with the darkness in people. Theoretically, I knew bad people existed, but I had rarely encountered one, and if so in passing. Then came the day when I finally realized that my WW was the worst person I knew. It was like a glass shattered and it took much to process. The realization also liberated me from the need to make excuses for her, to find justifications for her abhorrent actions and words. She now became my enemy and I needed to look out for myself and my kids. Had she moved heaven and earth to R, then things would have been different.

As time has passed, my view of her has changed slightly. I now see her more realistically as a very low quality human being. She is still the worst person I know, as she seems to embody those qualities that make a horrible human being, not because she is evil in a Machiavellian sense,but because she is so broken from her FOO and not interested in the least of fixing that. She would rather move through the world using people to medicate her wounds.

From what to have written, your Ww sounds particularly callous and self absorbed, but what do I know. The only advice I can give is to read everything you can on this site and really process it. Try not to be reactionary, but consider ever move you make before you make it. Run things bybthe members here. Remember, a wise person seeks counsel. Your Ww knows you and can predict your reactions with great accuracy. Unpredictability is the enemy of an affair. There are many great books to read as well. These are for you. I would recommend How to help your spouse heal from the affair and Cheating in a Nutshell. The latter, although anecdotal, nailed my situation. One thing that helped me when I was indecisive and awash with pain was Journaling. A question I would often ask is what would my 20 years from now self tell me now? That helped look beyond the moment.

Good luck and keep posting, even it the advice seems tough to swallow at times. Sadly, you are among peers...

[This message edited by Justsomeguy at 3:41 PM, Saturday, August 6th]

I found out my wife had a burner phone and was sending let’s say very descriptive audio and photos of herself to another guy. Also texts where they were trying to arrange to meet up in Sicily.

For the sake of our marriage and family I put this to one side

Poldark, this was clear actionable evidence of an affair well in progress. No more setting things aside.

Sorry you’re here and this is by no means self righteous condemnation. We’ve all made the same mistakes that you’re currently making.

We have the luxury of hind sight now and there’s a tremendous amount of collective wisdom accumulated here by contributors who’ve not only been in your shoes, made the same mistakes, but have read through thousands of similar affair scenarios.

Reading through these scenarios you’ll quickly begin to identify commonalities. We joke that cheaters almost seem to operate from a common play book, a manual.

We also see commonalities amongst BSs, how BSs react to infidelity, respond to infidelity and the universal factors that contribute to a BS successfully getting out of infidelity.

You’re going to get an array of responses and different opinions to your scenario based on the contributor’s own experiences, but you’re also going to notice much commonality in our responses. Focus on these commonalities, take what works for your situation and discard anything that doesn’t work for you.

Here’s a short list of commonalities I’ve identified in your responses so far:

-There’s more to her story. Get as much of truth as possible so you can make informed decisions going forward.

-Cheating is not your fault. You and the marriage is not the cause of her malfunction. Something deep inside her is broken.

-If she wishes to R, boundaries need to be erected and enforced to your satisfaction. Probably no more traveling alone.

-Be prepared to ditch the marriage to save the marriage. Don’t play a "Pick Me Dance". No begging or groveling. YOU are the injured party, YOU are the plaintiff, you hold the moral high ground. Don’t except blame shifting. Stand your ground and Grey Rock her, 180 her if she doesn’t comply with universal marital expectations and conditions for R. If you’re passive you will get steam rolled.

-Get STD Tests for you both.

-Tell the OBS

-Demand full transparency, disclosure and hard boundaries.

-Demand NC

-Stay vigilant for the affair to be taken underground. Increase surveillance

-Read in the healing library.

-Protect your dignity.

-Rally your support group.

-Hit the gym

-Consult an attorney or four. Lay the ground for DIVORCE until she comes crawling to you over broken glass begging for a second chance.

-Watch your conduct. You currently hold the moral high ground and protect that position with good conduct. Don’t make decisions when angry. No abuse. Don’t do anything stupid that will compromise your position on the high ground.

-Keep reading here with an open mind.

-Read the other suggested books

-Stay away from MC for now. MC would be premature right now until your WS fixes her shit with IC. (MC-Marriage Counseling IC-Individual Counseling)

-Don’t allow yourself to be manipulated by cheater’s ploys. (Minimization, DARVO, victimization of self, threats, guilt trips, love bombing, sex bombing, indifference, fence sitting, door matting, blame shifting, rug sweeping, promises without action)

-Strap yourself in. Keep your hands and feet within the car at all times. You’re going for the ride of life but…

You’re going to be ok.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 8:49 PM, Saturday, August 6th]

I am at a total loss as to what to do. She obviously is a serial liar. I don’t think she will ever tell me the truth so I can’t know whether the version of events now is accurate. It seems at every step she has to have the truth dragged out of her.

There's a lot of really confusing issues surrounding any case of infidelity, but when you boil it down to its essence, the question becomes... 'Is this relationship acceptable to you?". Not as it was and not as you wish it would be, but as it is today.

I don't think you'd be overreacting if you decided that it's not, and sometimes it's the impetus of knowing that the BS (betrayed spouse) has had enough and won't tolerate any more mistreatment which finally gets through to the WS (wayward spouse). Not in every case, but definitely in situations where the relationship is at all recoverable. True reconciliation will eventually require BOTH parties to want to be there.

You might want to read extensively in The Healing Library. You can find it in the drop-down menu. At the bottom line though, handling a WS's infidelity can feel really counterintuitive. Your temptation might be to try and attract your mate back, but this seldom works because what you get back is an unrepentant cheater who hasn't changed their ways.

She is cheating. Emotional cheating is just as bad as physical cheating. You have let your love for her blind you to the truth. Everyone on here has done the same thing. Some marriages make it and sone don’t.

Read all the jfo, general, separation/divorce, reconciliation forums to get a good idea of what you are dealing with.

Take care of your health.

I'm very sorry that you are here, brother.

Three things...

1 - Tou know they had sex, right? Every time she goes to Italy, they have sex, a lot of it. Adults don't sneak around to kiss each other on the cheek.

2 - You must tell his wife. She deserves to know. Wouldn't you want to be informed?

3 - Do not try to win her back or nice her back. Don't cry for her. WWs will see these things as weakness. WWs only respond to firm, decisive acts.

Stop rugsweeping.

Based on what you posted everything suggests your WW is neck-deep in a PA, adults don't get burner phones and meet several times just to get a kiss on the cheek and cuddle, but deep down I think you know this, if not please wake up, the proverbial "writing is on the wall on this one", moreover she of course is still lying (did I mention cheaters lie ?), minimizing and TT. You should EXPOSE the A and tell OBS (Other Betrayed Spouse), nothing kills an A faster than full exposure without warning, right now she's protecting OM at your expense, once you expose her the OM will more than likely drop her like a bad habit and throw her under the bus in an effort to save his own M, you have received great advice so far, don't forget to get tested for STDs.

I am sorry that you are here, but glad that you found us. I will try to be quick and to the point:

1. You know your WS is lying to you about multiple things related to her inappropriate behavior with someone other than you. You may never know if she had sex with this guy or not so forget the likelihood and percentages people post - what does it matter? She lied to you about talking to him. She lied to you about meeting him at all. She lied to you about the frequency in which she met him. And she only admitted these things when confronted with absolute proof. It's not a good sign - until your WS comes clean on her own (if she ever does) I don't think you have much room to work with unless you want to accept her cheating and proceed with your life. You will likely never know the full extent of what happened - ever - even if she decides to "come clean" at some point - so ask yourself this: Are you willing to consider moving forward with someone who has behaved in this way or is it a deal breaker for you? If its a deal breaker, then start getting your affairs in order.

2. The OM's wife deserves to know IMO. I did not tell the other betrayed spouse (my WH's affair was also with a married person) until almost a year after I knew. He was grateful to know, but was very reserved in discussing it with me, and we only spoke a few times...but still he was grateful, especially later on (they have since divorced). I believe telling the other betrayed spouse is necessary IF you have the right reasons for doing so: don't hope to ruin their marriage or hurt the AP - if that is your agenda then don't bother. Let the other spouse know because if it were you, you would hope someone would tell you as well. I gave very basic info to the OBS and let him ask what he wanted (which was not much) and I didn't contact him again after that.

I believe telling the other betrayed spouse is necessary IF you have the right reasons for doing so: don't hope to ruin their marriage or hurt the AP

To describe the other betrayed spouse’s right to know about the truth of their marriage as somehow dependent on on the BS’s motivations has never made sense to me. The OBS deserves the same ability to to make decisions based on reality as any other betrayed spouse. The blame for any fallout belongs on the shoulders of the waywards.

To describe the other betrayed spouse’s right to know about the truth of their marriage as somehow dependent on on the BS’s motivations has never made sense to me. The OBS deserves the same ability to to make decisions based on reality as any other betrayed spouse. The blame for any fallout belongs on the shoulders of the waywards.

'

Having been on here for awhile, I have heard people recount their contact with the OBS and sometimes the BS, in their desire to destroy the AP's marriage, is profoundly unkind and hurtful to the OBS. That is NOT okay with me. If your motives are to destroy the other marriage and you don't care who you hurt in the process then back the F off IMO. And more than that, if your expectations are that your reveal will destroy their marriage be prepared for disappointment. In other words my comment was to think about why you are doing something. The blame for the fallout belongs on the shoulders of the WS' BUT the blame for your own behavior always belongs with YOU - being a BS does not give you a free pass to destroy and demolish everything and everyone in your path.

But to get back to the OP - treat the OBS as you would want to be treated yourself and you will be okay.

If your motives are to destroy the other marriage and you don't care who you hurt in the process then back the F off IMO.

One could argue that their marriage is already destroyed, the OBS just doesn’t know it yet.

But I do understand where you’re coming from.

Yes, the BSs motives should be largely noble and selfish only in the desire to help contain, and suppress the affair, but even that motive is somewhat dubious if considered as an attempt to indirectly manipulate APs towards a desired outcome.

The way I look at it, my rationale for informing the OBS should not be vindictive. It should be humanitarian in nature and the approach humane. The OBS has a right to know. Now the selfish motivating aspects of informing the OBS should not be to manipulate and control the circumstances and the behavior of the APs. I believe the only selfish motivating factor should be the sharing of valuable intel and information gathering from each other’s unique perspectives that can aid in mutual informed decision making.

I believe vindication and manipulation should not be the BSs motivation for informing the OBS.

I hope you return and update us. We are here to help. Your W committed infidelity when she lied to you about communicating with another man.

You must notify his BW and remember doing the right thing is the only motive. If it destroys their M that’s called consequences. Don’t let people guilt or shame you for natural consequences of doing the right thing.

Best Wishes

[This message edited by Tanner at 5:40 PM, Friday, August 12th]

It’s a full blown physical affair.

Hello Poldark,

I am so sorry you're here, but you absolutely came to the right place. One thing that I took WAY too long to understand is that if they try desperately to minimize things and use the word JUST (it was JUST one time, she was JUST a friend, it was JUST a kiss), it usually means that there is DEFINITELY more that they aren't telling you. I have gone through 11 months of false reconciliation and trickle truth and found out the hard way.

I hope you get the answers you're looking for and I wish you peace.