SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I keep trying to write an update on the long, slow process that I've been going through with my W to create a detailed timeline of her A of almost 20 years ago. We've gone through a lot but I haven't written much about it. I didn't want to post anything that might give away what I know or affect how she was answering my questions.

Also, I keep going into such a detailed rant and I'm not sure anyone cares to read that at this point.

So the bottom line is this - 18 years ago as we were working on R she lied and minimized both how sexual the affair was and how serious it was emotionally. She claimed that the affair was mostly online except for "a few times" when she happened to be in OM's town on business overnight, and it became physical. She said at the time that she loved him but she minimized how serious their relationship was. They had sex, but he never stayed the night, she claimed.

I never understood how she could sit on the fence for two months when it was obvious to me that she couldn't really love the guy. She really only knew him from their online chats and a few brief encounters - or so I thought. This was long before online EAs had become a common thing.

The truth is that she arranged to meet OM over a dozen times and had sex with him at least nine times. The truth is that he stayed overnight many of those times and she arranged long weekends so they could play house and cultivate their relationship. She was seriously contemplating a future with him.

She made it sound like he was the pursuer and she was simply the victim of poor boundaries and the "slippery slope." It's clear now that she pursued him just as much as he did her - maybe more. She arranged nearly every meeting. She made sure that he'd have his opportunities, and more than once when he didn't make the next move, she made it for him.

Her lies didn't stop on Dday. She agreed not to see him in person as a condition for us staying under the same roof while we tried to work things out. She admits now that she planned to meet with him, supposedly for "closure," but he didn't show up.

I also found from one of her posts here that she seems to have broken "No Contact." Someone here asked, "What was one setback during R that you did not think you could overcome but did?" She answered, "H thought I wasn't still talking to OP, but I was. Still hard to admit that after all this time."

She says now that she doesn't recall that and doesn't think that she spoke with OM after NC. But she leaves open the possibility that there is something she is forgetting. She says believes she meant that she was still talking to him after D-day.

But there was never a time when I thought she wasn't talking to OM prior to NC. And she knew very well that R didn't begin until NC had been established. So how could talking with him have been a "setback in R" if it occurred before NC?

After we were trying to R she discovered SI and it was a great help in getting her to finally take responsibility at least for what she had admitted to. But even as she was playing the model WS here, she repeated the same lies that she told me.

I left SI to her as a safe place to deal with her issues. I stayed away and didn't read her posts. I realize now that was probably also part of my rug-sweeping. After reading her archived posts I realize how stupid it was. I just wanted things to go back to the way they were. I didn't want to think about it any more. I didn't want to face who she really was during that time.

I had never heard of a "timeline." But she understood the concept of timeline very well from her time here and she never offered that to me. She advised complete disclosure to other WSs here many times but she never gave it to me. She even told WSs whose BSs didn't want details that they should write it out while the details were fresh in case their BS ever changed their mind. She never did that either.

She claimed here to have given me dates but not details, which she said I didn't want. She never gave me either. She gave me, "A few times when I was there overnight." and that was a lie. I never said that I didn't want details. I said that I wasn't sure, given our therapist's advice against it. I gave up getting them because she made it so difficult and I didn't have the will to keep fighting over it. And now I realize it was also because I wasn't ready to have my illusions about her shattered.

She did a lot of work on herself to understand what she did and why. She seemed truly remorseful and she became a better person and a better wife through all that work. But now I'm left wondering why all of that work never inspired her to follow her own advice.

After a year or so we rarely spoke of her cheating any more. She would apologize from time to time. When the topic came up I would usually dismiss it, saying that there wasn't much point in talking about it when we couldn't change anything. We could only move on and live with it.

I regret that. I realize now it was all rug sweeping. Rather than really dealing with it I was trying not to think about it. I'm sure that was a convenient excuse for her to keep her secrets based on "he doesn't want to know."

But I was operating under the belief that the story she had given me, while vague, was largely the truth. There's a big difference between "a few times" by happenstance and a dozen times that involved tremendous planning and deceit. There's
a big difference between an online infatuation that she mistook for love and calling that person the love of your life as you're trying to plot out a future with them.

As I was coming to understand just how much she had lied to me back then, I also realized that she had directly lied to me about it since then, and even during this timeline process. She may plead forgetfulness, but I know that some of these things she did not forget. And I also realized now that she always lied more than I thought. And more recently.

Not that it's common. But I realize now that she has always had ways to manipulate me to get what she wants. At the far end of those tactics, a little fib or omission wasn't out of the question. An outright lie was an option if it was something she really wanted or the truth seemed painful or dangerous.

I talked to her about that and it was clear that she had already been struggling with it - probably based on the lies she had told in her initial timeline. She agrees that it's something she needs to work on. My tolerance for it is at an end.

Early in the process she decided that she needed to get back into IC. At first she went back to her original therapist in hopes that she would have records or recall whether she had talked about breaking NC or anything that might help her answer my questions.

No luck there, it was so long ago the records were discarded and the therapist had no recollection. But one good thing that came from it was that she saw clearly now just how enabling that original therapist's techniques were. So she signed up with a new therapist who specializes in trauma in hopes that she would be more sensitive to what I'm going through and help her access some of those memories. This therapist follows a complete honesty policy so no secrets are acceptable if I decide to join her in MC with this therapist.

We still haven't had a full discussion of all of this. I'm waiting on her answers to my final set of questions. Those are mostly digging into details where I have reason to believe she wasn't entirely transparent, but also about the implications of what I've learned and discovered.

It seems like I need to check in again on how she's progressing. I understand that these questions aren't easy, but it occurred to me - I wonder how long it would take if she put as much effort into it as she did the affair? Was that so easy?

All I have to say is, I hear you brother. There are others here more eloquent than me. It is fair that you ask her to take time to think and give her very best account and to consider where this leaves her and you both.

Also, I keep going into such a detailed rant and I'm not sure anyone cares to read that at this point.

I used to think this too...but writing it down on here HELPED . I often say that whatever HELPS the BS to HEAL...as long as it is legal...DO IT !! I also gained so much MORE information from others who had read my posts and I was able to look in different places that I hadn't even thought of before. Please KNOW...WE CARE . We KNOW what it feels like to NOT have all of the TRUTH...it is a HORRIBLE place to be . I rugswept so much from my 1st H's affairs...and the memories came back with a vengeance while I was trying to deal with my 2nd H's A. It is GOOD that you are getting this stuff OUT so that you can now heal .

I learned about how Craigslist keeps an account of every ad that was placed...my H didn't know so he didn't delete them. The google timeline was another great nugget of information . With things being this far out...you may not get as much information as I was able to...but you never know what you may find when you write about it on here .

I got a timeline from my H before I found out this information. So when I was able to look these things up...they actually corroborated what my H had told me. This HELPED tremendously in building TRUST back with what he said. Hopefully your W will come clean with ALL that she remembers. There may be some other things you uncover from her writings that may DOOM any trust you now have with her. That old saying..."The truth will set you free"...is...well...very TRUE!!

I dont know who your wife is on here, or when she last posted, but has she confessed to the fellow Waywards the lies and omissions she used to make herself look better and keep you in the dark?

Part of recovery for me would require that she do so.

It's humiliating that after D-day she was entirely comfortable telling friends what she had done as though it wasn't something that she should feel ashamed of. It was like a big romantic adventure that went wrong.

You wrote that on another thread. What does she think of how she did that to you after DDay? Is she still in touch with those friends? Perhaps she needs to follow up with them all these years later and tell them what a piece of shit she and the AP actually were and how devastating Infidelity actually is to both the BS and WS.

Dead or not, have you asked her if she still has any positive feelings for the AP. That would actually be a deal breaker for me.

But now I'm left wondering why all of that work never inspired her to follow her own advice.

This really stuck out to me and I think it’s a great question to ask her. I feel like I could probably answer it, but I would want her to come up with that answer herself. It would be a great thing to dig into with her IC.

Has she taken the opportunity/initiative to dig through her archived posts? It could be helpful to get her back in the mindset to answer your questions.

I hope you get some of the answers you are looking for.

Your story most closely mirrors my BH's of any that I have read on SI, so speaking for myself, you really can't write too much or too often. I will be interested in anything you have to say.

The part of your story that most concerns me, at least right now, is what you're telling yourself about the mistakes you've made at different times over the last 20 years.

None of us were taught how to handle being betrayed. If a BS looks for advice, it's easy to come across bad advice followed by confirmation of the bad advice. You followed one path, figured out it wasn't working for you, and changed. That takes strength, courage, and optimism.

I hope that you are congratulating yourself for bringing this up now and helping yourself heal. You're helping your W and at least some of your readers heal, too.

I wonder how long it would take if she put as much effort into it as she did the affair?

My R has gone about as well as it can, but it was helped after several reminders to my wife about this exact point.

She didn’t even realize how much WORK it was to schedule things with, in our case, a family friend. Two families, two schedules and the amount of effort it takes to communicate and gather and cover all such activities is IMMENSE in any A.

So, one of my first requirements of R was — once I chose to offer the final chance — work as hard on R as she did the A.

WS are often asked to be all in FIRST, without any guarantee the BS will be able to get to all in ever again, but for me, it was a critical part of our recovery. My wife didn’t ever have to be perfect, she still isn’t, but the EFFORT over time was something I had to see that helped the M heal.

You wrote that on another thread. What does she think of how she did that to you after DDay? Is she still in touch with those friends? Perhaps she needs to follow up with them all these years later and tell them what a piece of shit she and the AP actually were and how devastating Infidelity actually is to both the BS and WS.

Dead or not, have you asked her if she still has any positive feelings for the AP. That would actually be a deal breaker for me.

That's one of the questions outstanding - did she ever tell those people what a terrible thing it was and take responsibility? To me, one of the worst trends developing in our culture is this notion that you have to support your friends in "doing what they need to do to be happy." It's causing people to support bad behavior that they would never tolerate in their own relationships.

She professed long ago not to have any positive feelings or fond memories of the OM. It's not hard to believe in the cold light of day. I'm no Cliff Beefpile but OM looked like your German uncle.

Their connection started out entirely emotional. Uncle Himmler frequented the same sports forum that we did. He was an academic in a field in which she was interested. They connected over that and she was flattered that this academic was interested in her ideas on the subject. Over time it became an online EA and then the meetings started.

But in addition to being a man of letters, OM was a guy who enjoyed drinking and good times. And I believe my W was deep in a midlife crisis where she was regretting the fact that we met young and I had foiled her opportunity to enjoy those pleasures with my introverted nature.

He was also a bully - someone who enjoyed identifying his lessors online and putting them in their place. She had always been bullied as a child and when he included her in his tribe of bullies I think that was a thrill for her. Finally it was her turn to be on top. I imagine she saw that as a sign of his intelligence and sophistication. He just didn't suffer fools.

But the truth was that while Uncle Himmler was an academic, he was not full time and his contract wasn't renewed not long after they consummated the PA. It seems like he wasn't terribly motivated to go out and find another gig because evidently academics is all just politics and that game was beneath him. But he would get by because he lived at home with his parents. Not because he had to, but because they were elderly and needed his help. And I'm sure that none of this had anything to do with the fact he didn't just like drinking and good times, he was a full-blown drunk.

So once all the dust cleared and she got her head turned around straight it became clear to her what a POS he was. It was so obviously stupid that it made it a little too easy to think of her as temporarily insane or the hapless victim of the mind powers of this super predator (he was a serial OM).

So I doubt that she has fond memories of the OM and I think she recognizes that whatever thrill she got from the A at the time could have easily ruined her life.

But for me the real question is, what if OM hadn't turned out to be a creep? She tried so hard to overlook all of that and find a path forward for their relationship even as all of his flaws became completely obvious. She claims that her attempt to meet after D-day was for her to end it and get "closure." But it's entirely possible that her intent was to talk about whether was any way they could find a secure future together. He flunked the test entirely by not showing up.

Exhibit #209,918 on why you should never do the "pick-me dance." Because you will never know whether you won or the AP simply chose not to play.

I dont know who your wife is on here, or when she last posted, but has she confessed to the fellow Waywards the lies and omissions she used to make herself look better and keep you in the dark?

Part of recovery for me would require that she do so.

That's another thing that we will talk about. Very few people from that time are still around. She's in contact with some of them and they know what we're going through now. I don't think that it would be helpful to demand it as some kind of act of contrition, but I will ask her to share if she can draw from it some valuable advise for Waywards.

[This message edited by Seeking2Forgive at 8:42 AM, Sunday, July 31st]

Thank you all for your kind words. It is helpful to kind of blog these things out here and let people take from it what they may and offer advise where they can. I truly appreciate it.

Want2BHappyAgain, it's sometimes amazing and sometimes very frustrating what you can dig up these days. I'm fortunate that as a computer nerd and data packrat I still had backups of our desktops dating back to those days. And I've gotten much better at parsing through data in the intervening 20 years. If you can imagine one of those TV "murder boards" with yarn strung everywhere, it's kind of like that. :D

sisoon, yes, thank you. I should really be clear that just what I have achieved here already has given me a level of peace that I never realized was there to be had. Just throwing off the guilt and shame that I'd been carrying for all those years was such a relief. Understanding the impact the trauma at the time and coming to the realization of why I responded the way I did has allowed me to give myself a measure of grace for the way I handled things in those days.

While I forgive myself those mistakes, I also talk frankly about how I regret them for the benefit of BSs facing those same choices. I still kick myself, but it's largely performative now. :D

That's another thing that we will talk about. Very few people from that time are still around. She's in contact with some of them and they know what we're going through now. I don't think that it would be helpful to demand it as some kind of act of contrition, but I will ask her to share if she can draw from it some valuable advise for Waywards.

Whether it’s the same group of WS or different ones, going back to post publicly on the same forum she once deceived members should be a required step in my opinion. You commit the "crime" against your partner publicly the acts of attrition should also be public.

Your pain was made public by her actions. Her apologies should be the same, no matter how painful it is for her to make them that way.

Whether it’s the same group of WS or different ones, going back to post publicly on the same forum she once deceived members should be a required step in my opinion. You commit the "crime" against your partner publicly the acts of attrition should also be public.

** posting as a member **

I wasn't here when STF's WW was actively posting, so I'm not one of the waywards who might feel betrayed by hypocrisy in her advice and leadership role. I can also understand why it's very triggering for betrayed spouses when a WS who is held up as an example of "getting it" is proven to still be lying, still be minimizing -- in short, to still be wayward after all. I'm speaking only for myself and for how I see my purpose here.

It is, IMO, problematic to treat the Wayward Forum as a venue for public penance. We aren't there to rake WS over the coals for being WS. We're there to help them grow into no longer being WS. If you expect us to be shocked that someone can lie, deceive their spouse, deceive themselves, put on a performance of being what they are not, try to erase and rewrite the past, and/or fail to extract themselves from unhealthy attachments and thought patterns... well, that's what all of us did. We certainly aren't going to applaud or enable it, but I don't think we're in much of a position to throw stones.

I've stopped lying to my BH. I've offered a poly to prove it, and it's a standing offer, good for the rest of my life and without prior notice or negotiation. But I remember the terror inside my head and the mental tricks, bargaining, and compartmentalization I used before I found the strength to come completely clean. I remember the way I twisted things in my head to truly believe that I had been honest before D-Day 2 -- to even pat myself on the back that unlike other waywards, "at least I told the truth." Did that belief defy all logic and integrity? Absolutely... but that's what incompletely healed WS do.

I would never criticize STF for calling this a deal breaker and walking away to save himself. If his WW can't pull her shit together, there's a strong argument for that, and there are many members here who will be eloquent and fiery in making it. However, I am not lying in wait to call out his WW on his behalf. If she shows up to seek genuine help and to be vulnerable about what she's done and experienced, then I will be there to listen and share my own journey. If she's shoved in there as a forced condition of penance, I won't waste my time.

Perhaps STF’s WW could post in Waywards now on the incredible damage caused by trickle truth, continued lies, and outright hypocrisy, for some possible sobering benefit to other newly minted WS’s to read, and Lord willing, inspire true repentance?

BSR

I get it. And I was not trying to say that those who post in the Wayward Forum owe her or her husband anything in the way of a response.

I was hoping it would be more of a way for her to really do the work she has avoided all these years and become the person she pretended to be.

Support from those who choose to lend their support on any forum here is never guaranteed. I appreciate your input.

I shouldn’t have used the terms “acts of attrition” but instead indicated that it was an opportunity to actually become genuine.

[This message edited by Stevesn at 4:58 PM, Sunday, July 31st]

In the same way that it's therapeutic for a BS to speak and admit to the truth of what they've experienced and/or are experiencing, I can't see why the same wouldn't be true for a WS. I'm not suggesting either "advertise" to anyone that has an ear but I believe the argument could be made that as a WS lied to the members of this board, they can set matters right and take ownership of their dishonesty by expressing the truth. Quite frankly, this would be more for her own emotional and mental well being than for members. Although, I'm certain her honest feedback would benefit others in more than one way.

S2F, the details are different but my W treated her "disclosure", 15 years ago, almost exactly as your W did. And I still feel confident that she continues to rationalize why she doesn't need to be completely transparent with me. Then she did more with another OM from 2016-2019 in which she only admitted to what I could prove. The first time around I too rug swept. Like you, I've experienced disappointment, embarrassment and anger at myself over that but have learned to be kinder to myself over the years....and now feel truth is a must-have for R as the idea of me rug sweeping again makes me nautious.

Reading your feelings breaks my heart for you, brother. There are so many internal and external aspects to feel the full spectrum of emotions over. You're right to demand the truth though. It doesn't matter how long it's been. The "truth" doesn't require a perfect memory. It requires her to have a desire to give you everything she can remember and to work hard to dig up memories she's worked hard to rug sweep herself. The least she could do is treat your need for truth as worthy of extreme effort from her.

Not only for the above reasons,but I believe there is merit,in having a WS tell new/current BS the importance of the truth, NOW,rather than continue to lie.Because BS has a finely tuned BS radar. We know when we haven't been given the full truth. And that causes us to never fully become vulnerable with our WS,ever again. And,that even after 20 years, when the WS finally tells the truth, it will set us back to day one. How cruel that is. That having anything short of complete honesty, equals false reconciliation.

False Reconciliation, for 20 years? That's something very few BS should try to get past. Something very few will get over. Or should.

[This message edited by HellFire at 9:33 PM, Sunday, July 31st]

She claims that her attempt to meet after D-day was for her to end it and get "closure." But it's entirely possible that her intent was to talk about whether was any way they could find a secure future together. He flunked the test entirely by not showing up.

Exhibit #209,918 on why you should never do the "pick-me dance." Because you will never know whether you won or the AP simply chose not to play.

I honestly think that in many cases the infamous "I need to meet with him/her one last time for closure" is not only another sexual/romantic encounter but also a last ditch attempt to confirm whether or not there's any future with the AP, sometimes such "closure" happens over the phone, but again in many cases the A ends simply because the AP does not want to play ball, I don't recall but have you ever demanded a polygraph ? if not I suggest you do it after she writes a complete timeline of the A, and based on what you posted some/all of the questions should be:

1)Did you ever consider leaving me for him or anyone else before or after Dday and if so when ?
2) Did you break NC while in R and if so when?
3) Are you still lying today to me and/or your friends about any aspect of the A ?
4) Besides the OM in question have there been any others and if so how many and when?

Before the poly ask as many questions as possible preferably in writing, then make a better informed decision about your path forward.

Hi OP. As Buster123 posted I'd be wondering if there were any others.

All the regret you have, if it makes you feel any better you weren't the only husband who has rugswept things. I did too, many other posters on this site.

One of the things I find hardest is how could a woman who I cared for deeply and was kind to, be so selfish and cruel to me. That's not how I'm wired to treat people, how could she do that? TO ME?

Some of that is thinking myself more special than I am, some of it was being a nice guy not demanding more respect. And some of that is she can be a selfish bitch. But I just think now "you know wife if you want to a selfish, cruel shit, just divorce me. Go sow your wild oats and get out of my life". Cake eating I suppose on her part, and wishful thinking after the fact on my part.

Same thing I think must be hard for you, you're living with someone who has been very cruel and selfish. Despite the many things the two of you have done right to stay together for 20 years, it's a hard thing to get your head around.

But for me the real question is, what if OM hadn't turned out to be a creep?

In my five years as a SI member, I've never read a reconciling WS say, "If AP wasn't a creep/player/low-life/liar/snake/tramp, etc., I would have left BS to be with AP." Not once! Even when affair actions (planning) and words (VAR, email, texts) were indisputably revealed the WS will explain it away and generally speaking the BS will begrudgingly accept it. It's always a tough read for me, and I'm sure it's even harder for the BS.

In my five years as a SI member, I've never read a reconciling WS say, "If AP wasn't a creep/player/low-life/liar/snake/tramp, etc., I would have left BS to be with AP." Not once!

Actually, some of our most respected (and successfully reconciled) WS have admitted that their As were foiled exit affairs. WOES was one foot out the door when AP decided to work on his marriage. Hikingout's AP got caught and went NC. They didn't catch on to the asshole factor until after they were dropped on D-Day.

Would they have followed through and left if their APs had been all they imagined? There's no way to know without a crystal ball, but they painfully acknowledge that that was the original plan.